Not entirely true. If you have Words of War in play, you could activate the ability x number of times during your upkeep, because it reads "the next time you would draw a card".
draw phase is AFTER upkeep phase.... you cannot carry mana over when phases change out and a new phase comes into effect... unlessu run phyrexian arena, which makes you draw a card during your upkeep.... but we dont play black so..
im also done arguing that Moat is not REQUIRED to make this deck competitive... and i call it a win-more card due to the fact that by the time you play it... u would have already used up 2 Elephant grasses and an O-ring... and given 2-3 turns per elephant grass means you won the game already VS aggro matchups. Where as for control match ups or FISH... that moat will get countered anyways so it wouldnt matter much. atleast you get 3 more mana do do something else...
moat is a very good card... but u missed my point where i said that its a win more card.... grass and confinement stick around for a good amount of turns.. and thats usually all the deck needs to draw into a win condition.
and moat is a little worser now too because of flying vengevines and goyfs via a fast growing and popular deck called survival madness which tutors for wonder and makes all their critters fly over to beat face. im sure they will let the enchantress player resolve a moat too... because it will be obsolete once wonder is in their gy. on top of that... if fish does counter a elephant graveyard... good thing u still got 3 mana to play somethng else...
in conclusion, moat is ultimately good... and sure use it if u have it. but it is not NEEDED to stay competitive.
edit. and dont forget coralhelm commander flys too so even fish has a good flying beater now.
and about humilty shutting down argothian... its a move u gotta make if u know they r packing a creature with a special ability that will make u lose the game. so of course a 1 of would be sufficient. thats also why i run words of war... cause sometimes creatures cant take u there al the way... now if we combine moat with humility.. that would be pretty interesting.... just o-ring humility once u got enough ramp... and then cast emrakul ftw
It really isn't. I tried running Island Sanctuary for a while before I got Moat, and ended up dropping it as being ineffective. Having to skip your draw really kills it, and it doesn't protect you nearly as well as Solitary Confinement (the other card in our decks that causes us to skip draws). The thing about Moat is that it's one of the few broad-spectrum protection cards you can run that doesn't require any sort of continuing investment.
I'd very much disagree with the statement in bold. While you can run Enchantress without Moat, the card single-handedly shuts down so many strategies that decks with it will have a distinct and marked advantage over those that don't. It's like suggesting you run a Tendrils deck without Duress/Thoughtsieze -- sure it can be done, but the deck will be a *lot* less effective without it.
What's with using Emrakul as the bar for your protection spells? The only deck that uses Emrakul to any significant extent is the Aeon Bridges archetype, and it doesn't seem to make up enough of the metagame to really worry about.
Humility seems like an iffy card for the deck, if for no other reason than that it turns off our Argothian Enchantresses. Has anyone tried it competitively, and if so, what were your findings?
u sir have a bad example to argue your case... a storm deck playing without hand disruption or chant/silence effects would be like enchantress playing without enchantments... moat is a win more card imo... we already have elephant grass and runed halo and o-ring and etc etc to slow down faster clock decks. so with moat being in there, its just a win more card to me... and i say that emrakul is a threat to us because he hits for 15 (which weld have a lock hopefully alrdy) but we gota sac 6 things... and with doomsday/shelldock isle and all these sneak attack and show and tell stuff becoming more popular... he should be a very hard threat for any enchantress deck to attempt to handle.
dont get me wrong cause moat is very very competitive in the current legacy meta (fish, goblins, goyfs, etc) but if its taking u more than 4 turns to get a lock on very fast clock decks like zoo and burn.. then your enchantress deck may need some changes... cause moat wont stop burn to the dome... plus elephant grass is sufficient enough to give us like 2 or more turns to get that lock... then we're good to go.
anyone play test with helix yet? im interest to know if its good. i thought about running Near Death Experience as a win condition along with worship... and the good thing about this is that fast decks already take our life totals down fast... so a worship followed by a Near Death Experience would be pretty easy to get... too bad they took away mana burn. that really hurted this 2 card combo. but we still got words of war.
so is bant aggro still good?? i dont see anyone posting in here... and in case it doesnt run the survival package or the countertop package, would it still be viable?
Can you cast Nought, then cast a stifle to counter the CITP ability, basically giving you a 12/12 for 2?
yes thats what dreadstill is all about... but i read that whole article. and i gota say i'm really impressed. splashing black and sideboarding white. seems good to me, but i wonder how many ppl showed up to that tournament... they did a goood amount of rounds so i'd assume there was a good headcount. the black addition seems solid andi gota say. i must try this for nashville open series coming up. ill give a report too once nashville comes by
island sanctuary isnt too good since so much Fish is around. i'd rather put in that 4th elephant grass and keep 3 solitary confinements in MD than pay $200 for moat... thats like 2 underground seas for me haha... moat isnt needed to be competitive either, and on top of that, emrakul has flying so. i'd rather use humility if u wana shut down attackers.
is Dreadstill still viable?? i also fitted in Painter's Servant/grindstone as both 1 of's and it seems to be doing well in testing VS matchups like Zoo and goblins.. but with the current meta full of Fish i was thinking about maindecking pyroblasts. heres a list of what i run
x4 force of will
x2 spell pierce
x4 brainstorm
x4 counterbalance
x3 sensai's divining top
x4 lightning bolt
x3 stifle
x2 trickbind
x4 standstill
x1 engineered explosives
x2 jace, mind sculptor
x3 trinket mage
x3 phyrexian dreadnought
lands
x4 mishra's factory
x4 wasteland
x4 scalding tarn
x2 misty rainforest
x1 mountain
x2 volcanic island
x4 island
when i test this with the painter's servant package... i take out 1 dreadnought and 1 standstill. with brainstorm and top searchign for anything to win the game real fast and of course counterbalance doing its thing to control things.. any suggestions??
adding red gives the deck access to Blood Moon too which can literally shut down many decks. i usually run 1 of it in the sideboard. and Words of War is so amazing... especially with a Serra's Sanctum in play... its usually gameover in like 2 full turns even if they are at 20 life. on top of that, it gets red of problemsome creatures that will usually keep the opponent still in the game (weather wayfarer, dark confidant, etc.)
Then you are clearly playing the deck incorrectly.
Life from the Loam is an engine, yes, but it's one of several. It's your best engine, sure, but the format is such that relying on it to work miracles for you is asking to get blown out by the hate. Vengevine Survival is a real deck and the easiest way to attack it is to use Extirpate or Leyline of the Void. Even before that, though, graveyard hate was standard issue for sideboards because of the presence of Lands and Dredge before it. Life from the Loam has been vulnerable to these things since it was printed, and has only gotten more so over time.
Immediately using Burning Wish to find Loam is almost always a mistake when you know your opponent has hate. Doing so leaves you no outs to hate cards and you can't expect Chalice to solve everything.
Besides, Burning Wish has been bad in non-combo decks since Counterbalance became big. You basically can't Wish for a hate card because Wish rarely resolves in those matchups, and it's impossible to ignore tempo sinks in a format as fast and as powerful as Legacy. Sure, you can spend your entire second turn with Wish for Firespout, and then your entire third turn using it against Zoo; Zoo already has somewhere between 3-7 points of damage on you and its Tarmogoyfs and Knights will likely survive. You wasted two turns to ease some of the pressure, but not enough of it: you're going to be playing catch-up for a long time, if you survive, and you just wasted one of your "seven" Life from the Loams not getting Life from the Loam. Congrats.
The only thing Wish has going for it is that it lowers the curve in a deck that already suffers from being half a turn two slow. Given what a horrible card Wish is, and what obvious tempo loss it causes even when it resolves, and how relatively weak many of the answers it's getting are, that's a small comfort.
Generally, removing Burning Wish and Devastating Dreams can be compensated for by smart deck construction with more broadly applicable cards. It might suck to have to run maindeck Firespouts in an aggro meta, but you're better off in most cases than if you ran Burning Wish. This deck can't kill faster than most modern Legacy aggro decks can reload, and then Burning Wish will likely be out of relevant targets. Seems poor.
Aggro Loam right now is very Tier 2.5. It is soft to Counterbalance control decks that can keep it off Loam while answering its (few) large creatures, and Merfolk is uncomfortably dependent on the opponent's draw and on the use of relatively weak cards like Seismic Assault. Seito-style Merfolk lists have an easier time against this deck because of the higher proportion of counters and a decently powerful clock; a couple of well-time Dazes, Pierces, and Cursecatchers in the early game will often put you too far behind to recover. Being on the draw is also terrible as Vial overloads your removal too easily. Against the rest of the field, Aggro Loam suffers from the classic midrange problem of beating aggro but being soft to control decks, and you just flat-out lose to combo most of the time. Show and Tell decks can be hit-or-miss depending on the specific builds, but most of the time an early Emrakul will wipe you out with no hope of recovery.
I know this sounds weird given its recent placing, but I feel this deck just is not viable anymore without a major rethink (and this coming from a longtime player of the deck). Loam decks in general right now are underpowered compared to the competition, and are often stuck in a weird zone where the hate is such that they can't rely on Loam, but they still need to justify the card's inclusion in the deck somehow. However, the Loam draw engine is pretty overrated when compared to something like Top, which provides similar levels of card quality for a fraction of the slots and the cost (and it combos well, too!). Drawing cards in general is suspect in Legacy unless you see more than one card at a time, and Loam effectively draws three for five, most of which is colored mana. This is weak to the point of being irrelevant. Furthermore, the card is best in the late game, but often the match has been decided before that by other cards, and the draw ends up being icing on a cake that was already finished.
I think the deck needs a major overhaul to retain competitiveness, and Burning Wish is certainly not part of that.
personally, on sideboard i would side out the buring wishes... cause you will know what you need to beat that deck that just whopped you and that you just whopped. but burning wish is still a threat that the opponent must deal with. and coutnerbalance decks have sunk according to recent metas... scg, pro tour, etc. its not 50% or more anymore like it was earlier this year. and a good loam player will be able to play around a counterbalance deck.
but no one can argue that burnign wish gives you 7 ways to get our engine going... cause not getting life from the loam means you will most certainly lose. and for the zoo comments... if you kepted a hand without chalice, firespout or devastating dreams after the 1st game... you must suck with other decks too....
1 savannah and 1 taiga is good enough. and about savannah and taiga being worth money... if you want to play in a prolong period of time in legacy events, i'd recommend grabbing as much revised dual lands as possible... savannah and taiga dont produce blue lucky, so anyone building this deck shouldnt be too worried....
just to suggest also, i run emrakul now in the main and he is so awesome.... keeps you from getting milled to death and getting 15 mana is not hard with serra's sanctum in play and lots of enchants. and if u know the opponent is packing wastelands... i'd probably hold onto serra's sanctum until i have enough mana to cast emrakul ftw
fauna shaman sounds interesting in this deck... if you run her, you can run a toolbox style 1 ofs in the sideboard or even MD since they'd be taking up 1 or 2 slots only. worst case scenerio, she can attack for 2 damage with a jitte on her, and survival is an enchantment and cannot do that. and if they are StP fauna shaman, then they arent doing that with your goyf, nacatl and lavamancer....
some of you guys dont know how useful burnign wish can be eh?? aggro loam is not about tempo. it should be played almost like a control deck most of them time since we see lots of aggro decks in many metas. and vs combo, 3-4 slots in the s/b are plenty vs combo. burning wish is still key to how good this deck can play out.... and if you see and island in the opponents side and a hand full of cards.... i love it when i burning wish and ask them if it resolves and then i grab worm harvest.... its hilarious and very good vs control decks that counter alot (landstill, countertop variants, etc.)
to be honest, i dont think aggroloam can be play as well without burning wish, it gives you 7 life from the loams instead of just 4.... life from the loam is our engine and we need it to be active asap
you guys think this deck can still function well without survival... liek say i use fauna shaman instead. it should still be pretty decent right? i know creatures have more problems staying on the board but thats why MD mother of runes can protect them from. so in essence, you dont have to worry bout pridemage or krosan grips killing off the engine. just use mother of runes and FoW and such to protect fauna.
draw phase is AFTER upkeep phase.... you cannot carry mana over when phases change out and a new phase comes into effect... unlessu run phyrexian arena, which makes you draw a card during your upkeep.... but we dont play black so..
im also done arguing that Moat is not REQUIRED to make this deck competitive... and i call it a win-more card due to the fact that by the time you play it... u would have already used up 2 Elephant grasses and an O-ring... and given 2-3 turns per elephant grass means you won the game already VS aggro matchups. Where as for control match ups or FISH... that moat will get countered anyways so it wouldnt matter much. atleast you get 3 more mana do do something else...
and moat is a little worser now too because of flying vengevines and goyfs via a fast growing and popular deck called survival madness which tutors for wonder and makes all their critters fly over to beat face. im sure they will let the enchantress player resolve a moat too... because it will be obsolete once wonder is in their gy. on top of that... if fish does counter a elephant graveyard... good thing u still got 3 mana to play somethng else...
in conclusion, moat is ultimately good... and sure use it if u have it. but it is not NEEDED to stay competitive.
edit. and dont forget coralhelm commander flys too so even fish has a good flying beater now.
and about humilty shutting down argothian... its a move u gotta make if u know they r packing a creature with a special ability that will make u lose the game. so of course a 1 of would be sufficient. thats also why i run words of war... cause sometimes creatures cant take u there al the way... now if we combine moat with humility.. that would be pretty interesting.... just o-ring humility once u got enough ramp... and then cast emrakul ftw
u sir have a bad example to argue your case... a storm deck playing without hand disruption or chant/silence effects would be like enchantress playing without enchantments... moat is a win more card imo... we already have elephant grass and runed halo and o-ring and etc etc to slow down faster clock decks. so with moat being in there, its just a win more card to me... and i say that emrakul is a threat to us because he hits for 15 (which weld have a lock hopefully alrdy) but we gota sac 6 things... and with doomsday/shelldock isle and all these sneak attack and show and tell stuff becoming more popular... he should be a very hard threat for any enchantress deck to attempt to handle.
dont get me wrong cause moat is very very competitive in the current legacy meta (fish, goblins, goyfs, etc) but if its taking u more than 4 turns to get a lock on very fast clock decks like zoo and burn.. then your enchantress deck may need some changes... cause moat wont stop burn to the dome... plus elephant grass is sufficient enough to give us like 2 or more turns to get that lock... then we're good to go.
anyone play test with helix yet? im interest to know if its good. i thought about running Near Death Experience as a win condition along with worship... and the good thing about this is that fast decks already take our life totals down fast... so a worship followed by a Near Death Experience would be pretty easy to get... too bad they took away mana burn. that really hurted this 2 card combo. but we still got words of war.
yes thats what dreadstill is all about... but i read that whole article. and i gota say i'm really impressed. splashing black and sideboarding white. seems good to me, but i wonder how many ppl showed up to that tournament... they did a goood amount of rounds so i'd assume there was a good headcount. the black addition seems solid andi gota say. i must try this for nashville open series coming up. ill give a report too once nashville comes by
x4 force of will
x2 spell pierce
x4 brainstorm
x4 counterbalance
x3 sensai's divining top
x4 lightning bolt
x3 stifle
x2 trickbind
x4 standstill
x1 engineered explosives
x2 jace, mind sculptor
x3 trinket mage
x3 phyrexian dreadnought
lands
x4 mishra's factory
x4 wasteland
x4 scalding tarn
x2 misty rainforest
x1 mountain
x2 volcanic island
x4 island
when i test this with the painter's servant package... i take out 1 dreadnought and 1 standstill. with brainstorm and top searchign for anything to win the game real fast and of course counterbalance doing its thing to control things.. any suggestions??
personally, on sideboard i would side out the buring wishes... cause you will know what you need to beat that deck that just whopped you and that you just whopped. but burning wish is still a threat that the opponent must deal with. and coutnerbalance decks have sunk according to recent metas... scg, pro tour, etc. its not 50% or more anymore like it was earlier this year. and a good loam player will be able to play around a counterbalance deck.
but no one can argue that burnign wish gives you 7 ways to get our engine going... cause not getting life from the loam means you will most certainly lose. and for the zoo comments... if you kepted a hand without chalice, firespout or devastating dreams after the 1st game... you must suck with other decks too....
just to suggest also, i run emrakul now in the main and he is so awesome.... keeps you from getting milled to death and getting 15 mana is not hard with serra's sanctum in play and lots of enchants. and if u know the opponent is packing wastelands... i'd probably hold onto serra's sanctum until i have enough mana to cast emrakul ftw
to be honest, i dont think aggroloam can be play as well without burning wish, it gives you 7 life from the loams instead of just 4.... life from the loam is our engine and we need it to be active asap
necropotence is not legal in legacy...