Jund players whining about AV don't realize that they have options.
AV is not as powerful as some on here seem to think, I've played with it a lot and while its a decent card, it is very slow.
First of all, you have options to deal with AV before it comes down. On the play you can TS, IoK, or Duress that AV and make the blue player's opening hand look terrible. Also, cards like Wasteland Strangler are available if Tempo AV decks start to be a problem.
Second, you might have to grind through the +2 CA that the first AV provides. But that isn't impossible, that's what Jund is good at. The second AV is so slow that you will often have the game locked up by then, and keep in mind AV is a horrible top deck when you are behind on board.
I think people are overestimating the impact an AV unban will have. I love blue control, and I think it did need some help, so I'm pleased. But Reid Duke calling it 'catastrophic' for Jund is just hyperbole. Do some play testing before you start to whine. I promise its not as backbreaking as some are making it out to be.
I *hope* they ban all the turn 1 fast mana.
One of the eldrazi lands, SSG, and Mox Opal. Seriously T1 fast mana is broken in a format without force or daze.
But I don't think they will do that, so Modern will still suck unless you like playing ravager or goblin guide or pump spells. Or spending $2K to play Jund I guess.
I can only hope for unbans, but I think they absolutely will not do that at the same time they try to stop Eldrazi winter. Most of the unban talk is just wishful thinking from players who would like to play with those cards. Just think about it, if they unban something now, everyone who now has to stop playing Eldrazi will rush to break what the unban. They want to stabalize, not create a whole nother unstable environment.
The fact that they made this pattern show up in EVERY language translation of the flavor text is very very cool. Kudos WOTC.
Also, it shows a very deliberate attempt to make the whole Clue theme mean something.
Emrakul haters chill out and try to appreciate the cleverness here.
That being said, the phrase "Remember this: they came as three" still leaves open the possibility that Emrakul won't actually show up on this plane. Maybe Nahiri just found a way to summon his influence (i.e. the corruption) without actually summoning the being. However, given that Jace discovered the method to bind Ula and Kozi to the plane using the hedrons, it would make sense that Nahiri would already know how to bind Emmy
I realize not many have taken the time to do this, but its simple to create an eldrazi list without one or two of the lands and then goldfish.
I've done this a few times and looked at about 50 draws + first few turns after having removed either eldrazi land or both.
This is not valid empirical data in any way, I am not claiming it is. But my anecdotal impression after doing so is that they should ban Eye and leave Temple.
The reason is that by taking out Eye, it removes the completely bonkers unbeatable draws, and also the inevitability in the late game that has no business being in a stompy deck.
I don't think T2 TKS is broken, just very strong, and without Eye it happens way less frequently since you need to draw 2 temples + TKS (or SSG but nobody is really playing those just for a T2 TKS since it weakens so many other draws).
So that basically leaves double Temple as a *nut* draw, which is very good but still beatable. If we want Eldrazi to still be a deck, just cut down the power level, then you have to leave in some ability for fast starts.
Leaving in Eye, but not Temple, still leaves the deck too powerful IMO because some draws are just ridiculous when you can play multiple creatures in the same turn. Its just too good, and in my goldfishing, that doesn't happen that much with Temple.
As I've said before, I don't think Tron losing Eye is that big a deal. If Tron wants to keep some inevitability, there are other ways to do it. Tron's big advantage isn't Eye, its having 7 mana potentially T3, and so it will still be a strong deck. Tron needs more innovation to become T1, but losing Eye won't really prevent that from happening.
Generally speaking card advantage is better than card selection.
But that isn't always true when you need a particular answer.
But going +1 card isn't worth 5 mana.
I feel like the format is too fast for that.
Has anyone tried dropping the Think Twice for a diff card selection or draw spell? If so, what was your experience with that?
Disclaimer: I don't play this deck, although I have played a lot of control decks and some very similar lists.
Considering this deck. My first thought is that Think Twice is a terrible magic card. I know you use it for curve reasons and to have something to durdle with when you would be leaving mana unused. But how can you honestly afford to run a card with such low impact. 5 mana for +1 card isn't worth it.
From the main post:
"Simultaneously the worst and most necessary card in the deck. This is your go to early game cantrip to help hit land drops while providing positive card advantage later in the game. It is also one of the best cards against the BGx decks as pitching it to liliana is nearly free and sometimes they have no choice but to take it with a discard spell."
If you want an instant speed way to hit land drops, have you tried Anticipate? Also, I don't think this card can be considered good just because you don't mind discarding it. That's a pretty poor reason to run a card.
As someone who has played a lot of high level chess, I disagree. It is definitely not decided by 3 moves. Most chess opening sequences last for 7-10 moves and leave both black and white with decent chances. Only a severe mistake would decide the game by the third move.
As for Vintage, yes it is often determined very quickly. The difference is everyone has access to the speed, not just two or three aggressive creature decks. I actually like Vintage. But its a moot point anyway because very few people can afford to play that format. Modern should be the eternal format that is more accessible. Only right now it isn't fun.
I disagree that a format that lasts more than 3 turns would be boring and stale. I think the sheer variety of synergies in the Modern cardpool would lead to lots of really fun games. I think you would see lots more diversity and more interesting decision trees for players. What is the "lots of action in 3 turns" you are talking about? You want to get rid of BGx and UW and Tron and all those other archetypes? Because they certainly want the game to last beyond the first 3 turns. If that's the format you want, then you must be quite pleased with an Eldrazi/Affinity/Infect metagame.
I'm sort of with Carthage on this one. I don't even care if they ban Eldrazi anymore. Am I the only one who thinks Affinity is just as oppressive to the format? A deck where the goal is to dump its hand of weenies on T1 and then kill in a couple turns doesn't make for interesting games of Magic. They think that is okay for the format, but Twin had to go? It makes zero sense. Infect is just as lame in my opinion.
Modern is a huge format in terms of card pool. So many crazy interactions and interesting things are possible! There is true beauty and complexity in games of MTG, if only games were not decided by T3. But Modern has become a format where you just mulligan a bunch hoping to get your nut, and its usually clear who will win by T2. Yeah, that's definitely an interesting card game...
Imagine if chess was decided by the third move every game. Who the hell would want to play that? Its even worse when the game includes as much random chance as Magic, because often a game of Modern is over before it even starts, but the players don't know it yet.
It is totally okay for a format to contain this sort of aggressive speed. IF you also allow it to have answers that can be applied at the same speed. But for some reason WOTC doesn't want to give us those.
For me to stick with Modern, or maybe even stick with MTG since I can't afford to play Legacy, some of the following needs to happen:
1) Print colorless hosers that don't suck so we can at least sideboard against the nonsense.
2) If you are going to ban to try to correct the format, then please just ban Mox Opal and Temple/Eye all at once. I don't care if Affinity players cry. T0 fast mana is stupid. Everyone knows Mox Sapphire is busted, why allow Mox Opal? I don't care you need 2 artifacts to turn it on, you will have that 99% of the time. If you want to make Modern "fair", then really make it fair.
3) Alternatively, if you want some decks to have access to T0 fast mana, then find a way to give it to way more than just 2 archetypes. There are lots of ways to solve this, but if people want to cast T2 fatties then let us at least cast T3 wraths.
4) Please print answers that don't suck. Seriously, better counterspells (why is UU counterspell unfair again?), better spot removal, better mass removal, I don't really care how they want to approach it. But outside of Path to Exile (which is a pretty well balanced spell) there really isn't anything in Modern that is mana efficient enough for these ridiculously efficient creatures and pump spells you insist on printing.
5) Can we please get some card draw /selection spells that aren't horrible? There are so many creatures that are basically a 2 for 1 starting at 2cc and up. Where are the equivalent draw spells? Sure Treasure Cruise was busted but I actually think Dig alone might be fine since its basically just double Anticipate and its only a +1 card draw spell.
Traditional control is pretty reactive gameplan. For example draw-go. Problem is clearly that modern is very fast, and wizards decided some time ago that they wanted to start making answers more expensive and creatures more aggressive. Like UU counterspell is too powerful as a reactive 1 for 1, but almost every new pushed creature they print is a progressive 2 for 1. Now not even lightning bolt is good enough removal (recent Jund lists have been ditching it).
Basically the modern meta is just fart your hand and whoever has the best draw wins.
The game has changed. It makes me sad.
So sure if people want to call their Wall of Omens / Kitchen Finks / Restoration Angel decks "control" then go for it. Although they are really midrange value decks.
If you are asking if reactive control exists in modern, yes it exits. If you are asking if it can be successful (as in win tournaments) no not really. And it won't until Wizards starts giving us better answers.
I really don't think it will be unseated. The deck still has room to adapt to attempts to counter it. Artifact / creature removal isn't the answer because if you waste spell slots on that, Caw can just Jace or Gideon you out instead.
Also we know that WOTC intend to complete the Sword cycle in this set, and the last remaining sword will be pro-red/white. Once that sword is added to the mix, Caw's game against Boros will have to go up. Also, neither of the current swords have pro-red so I think that one may also be tougher for valakut.
Of course there is always the possibility of some new format-warping card in Action. It just doesn't seem likely.
@mtgrocks04 It isn't about lining up with "noble knights", you're missing the point... The point is that infect doesn't blend well in a deck with non-infect creatures, since you should be either trying to reduce life to 0 or increase poison to 10, but doing both at the same time is not competitive. I.e. if you have 1 infect and 1 non-infect creature on the board, it is an absolutely worse board than having 2 infect or 2 non-infect. Infect is too linear, it won't be competitive when splashed into a deck.
AV is not as powerful as some on here seem to think, I've played with it a lot and while its a decent card, it is very slow.
First of all, you have options to deal with AV before it comes down. On the play you can TS, IoK, or Duress that AV and make the blue player's opening hand look terrible. Also, cards like Wasteland Strangler are available if Tempo AV decks start to be a problem.
Second, you might have to grind through the +2 CA that the first AV provides. But that isn't impossible, that's what Jund is good at. The second AV is so slow that you will often have the game locked up by then, and keep in mind AV is a horrible top deck when you are behind on board.
I think people are overestimating the impact an AV unban will have. I love blue control, and I think it did need some help, so I'm pleased. But Reid Duke calling it 'catastrophic' for Jund is just hyperbole. Do some play testing before you start to whine. I promise its not as backbreaking as some are making it out to be.
One of the eldrazi lands, SSG, and Mox Opal. Seriously T1 fast mana is broken in a format without force or daze.
But I don't think they will do that, so Modern will still suck unless you like playing ravager or goblin guide or pump spells. Or spending $2K to play Jund I guess.
I can only hope for unbans, but I think they absolutely will not do that at the same time they try to stop Eldrazi winter. Most of the unban talk is just wishful thinking from players who would like to play with those cards. Just think about it, if they unban something now, everyone who now has to stop playing Eldrazi will rush to break what the unban. They want to stabalize, not create a whole nother unstable environment.
Also, it shows a very deliberate attempt to make the whole Clue theme mean something.
Emrakul haters chill out and try to appreciate the cleverness here.
That being said, the phrase "Remember this: they came as three" still leaves open the possibility that Emrakul won't actually show up on this plane. Maybe Nahiri just found a way to summon his influence (i.e. the corruption) without actually summoning the being. However, given that Jace discovered the method to bind Ula and Kozi to the plane using the hedrons, it would make sense that Nahiri would already know how to bind Emmy
It would be great at uncommon, but boring at rare.
Just Summer Bloom and a bounce land
T1 Amulet
T2 bounce land, summer bloom, rest is elementary
I've done this a few times and looked at about 50 draws + first few turns after having removed either eldrazi land or both.
This is not valid empirical data in any way, I am not claiming it is. But my anecdotal impression after doing so is that they should ban Eye and leave Temple.
The reason is that by taking out Eye, it removes the completely bonkers unbeatable draws, and also the inevitability in the late game that has no business being in a stompy deck.
I don't think T2 TKS is broken, just very strong, and without Eye it happens way less frequently since you need to draw 2 temples + TKS (or SSG but nobody is really playing those just for a T2 TKS since it weakens so many other draws).
So that basically leaves double Temple as a *nut* draw, which is very good but still beatable. If we want Eldrazi to still be a deck, just cut down the power level, then you have to leave in some ability for fast starts.
Leaving in Eye, but not Temple, still leaves the deck too powerful IMO because some draws are just ridiculous when you can play multiple creatures in the same turn. Its just too good, and in my goldfishing, that doesn't happen that much with Temple.
As I've said before, I don't think Tron losing Eye is that big a deal. If Tron wants to keep some inevitability, there are other ways to do it. Tron's big advantage isn't Eye, its having 7 mana potentially T3, and so it will still be a strong deck. Tron needs more innovation to become T1, but losing Eye won't really prevent that from happening.
But that isn't always true when you need a particular answer.
But going +1 card isn't worth 5 mana.
I feel like the format is too fast for that.
Has anyone tried dropping the Think Twice for a diff card selection or draw spell? If so, what was your experience with that?
Considering this deck. My first thought is that Think Twice is a terrible magic card. I know you use it for curve reasons and to have something to durdle with when you would be leaving mana unused. But how can you honestly afford to run a card with such low impact. 5 mana for +1 card isn't worth it.
From the main post:
"Simultaneously the worst and most necessary card in the deck. This is your go to early game cantrip to help hit land drops while providing positive card advantage later in the game. It is also one of the best cards against the BGx decks as pitching it to liliana is nearly free and sometimes they have no choice but to take it with a discard spell."
If you want an instant speed way to hit land drops, have you tried Anticipate? Also, I don't think this card can be considered good just because you don't mind discarding it. That's a pretty poor reason to run a card.
As for Vintage, yes it is often determined very quickly. The difference is everyone has access to the speed, not just two or three aggressive creature decks. I actually like Vintage. But its a moot point anyway because very few people can afford to play that format. Modern should be the eternal format that is more accessible. Only right now it isn't fun.
I disagree that a format that lasts more than 3 turns would be boring and stale. I think the sheer variety of synergies in the Modern cardpool would lead to lots of really fun games. I think you would see lots more diversity and more interesting decision trees for players. What is the "lots of action in 3 turns" you are talking about? You want to get rid of BGx and UW and Tron and all those other archetypes? Because they certainly want the game to last beyond the first 3 turns. If that's the format you want, then you must be quite pleased with an Eldrazi/Affinity/Infect metagame.
Modern is a huge format in terms of card pool. So many crazy interactions and interesting things are possible! There is true beauty and complexity in games of MTG, if only games were not decided by T3. But Modern has become a format where you just mulligan a bunch hoping to get your nut, and its usually clear who will win by T2. Yeah, that's definitely an interesting card game...
Imagine if chess was decided by the third move every game. Who the hell would want to play that? Its even worse when the game includes as much random chance as Magic, because often a game of Modern is over before it even starts, but the players don't know it yet.
It is totally okay for a format to contain this sort of aggressive speed. IF you also allow it to have answers that can be applied at the same speed. But for some reason WOTC doesn't want to give us those.
For me to stick with Modern, or maybe even stick with MTG since I can't afford to play Legacy, some of the following needs to happen:
1) Print colorless hosers that don't suck so we can at least sideboard against the nonsense.
2) If you are going to ban to try to correct the format, then please just ban Mox Opal and Temple/Eye all at once. I don't care if Affinity players cry. T0 fast mana is stupid. Everyone knows Mox Sapphire is busted, why allow Mox Opal? I don't care you need 2 artifacts to turn it on, you will have that 99% of the time. If you want to make Modern "fair", then really make it fair.
3) Alternatively, if you want some decks to have access to T0 fast mana, then find a way to give it to way more than just 2 archetypes. There are lots of ways to solve this, but if people want to cast T2 fatties then let us at least cast T3 wraths.
4) Please print answers that don't suck. Seriously, better counterspells (why is UU counterspell unfair again?), better spot removal, better mass removal, I don't really care how they want to approach it. But outside of Path to Exile (which is a pretty well balanced spell) there really isn't anything in Modern that is mana efficient enough for these ridiculously efficient creatures and pump spells you insist on printing.
5) Can we please get some card draw /selection spells that aren't horrible? There are so many creatures that are basically a 2 for 1 starting at 2cc and up. Where are the equivalent draw spells? Sure Treasure Cruise was busted but I actually think Dig alone might be fine since its basically just double Anticipate and its only a +1 card draw spell.
Basically the modern meta is just fart your hand and whoever has the best draw wins.
The game has changed. It makes me sad.
So sure if people want to call their Wall of Omens / Kitchen Finks / Restoration Angel decks "control" then go for it. Although they are really midrange value decks.
If you are asking if reactive control exists in modern, yes it exits. If you are asking if it can be successful (as in win tournaments) no not really. And it won't until Wizards starts giving us better answers.
Don't hold your breath.
Also we know that WOTC intend to complete the Sword cycle in this set, and the last remaining sword will be pro-red/white. Once that sword is added to the mix, Caw's game against Boros will have to go up. Also, neither of the current swords have pro-red so I think that one may also be tougher for valakut.
Of course there is always the possibility of some new format-warping card in Action. It just doesn't seem likely.