Elsewhere flask is VERY playable in my opinion. True, it turns off your tron, but it allows you to get the WW for the very early open the vaults that would otherwise not be possible if you had, say, a prismatic instead.
conjurer's bauble is a KEY egg IMO as it allows you to get back banefires lost to thoughtsieze etc. It also lets you run infinite loops with alternate win cons (pyrite spellbomb?) among other shenanigans.
edit: -addendum-
As for the land count, I do believe 16 (maybe 17 depending on what support cards you run) is the right number. You REALLY dont want to draw into lands once you start comboing out. And with good knowledge of which hands to mulligan and when, youll really start reaping the results with significantly fewer fizzles as the cantrips really help you draw out your deck and hit those land drops up to t4.
Fabricate really serves as a 5th KCI or a 2nd spine of ish sah for shenanigans. Lots of shenanigans to be had with spine of ish sah + KCI even without the combo
i dont agree with the triple win con. you never want to just draw any of them until you get the combo out.
i also dont agree with the RoR over the FR. instant speed is reason enough to take FR over RoR, and the 1 extra CC is more of a draw back than the fact that you can only return stuff on the same turn you sac them. also, the single colored mana is more relevant than you think. also, i think 5 is the right number of sunrise effects. 6, again increases your fizzle rates.
granted, you run more cantrips than my build (which runs the full suite of eggs instead to up arti counts and consistency during early all ins) to dig yourself out of the above mentioned holes. but then again, why not just run more eggs as they both cantrip AND feed the combo?
aahh, nice to see a following for this deck again.
I personally believe codex shredder is a mistake. Conjurer's bauble does pretty much the same thing and cycles for a card mid combo.
The green splash is interesting. I do believe however that you seem to be diluting your deck with too many non-artifacts. How has this affected your fizzle rates with t3 combo attempts? I find you want/need at least 3 artifacts including the KCI to be able to pull a t3 off without fizzling.
Lastly, how are you shoring up the Uxx MUs? i find those are pretty terrible for me.
Doesn't feel like leyline does much for the deck outside the burn MU really. With all the cantriping going on, a few thoughtseize doesn't really affect us too much. 8 rack is too much of a fringe MU to really need the SB slots.
You can go infinite with 1 conjurer's bauble, 1 etherium sculptor, and 1 myr retriever in play. No need for 2. The egg you want is probably going to be a 1 mana egg like terrarion since you are going to be cutting a sculptor for it.
I actually really really like the sound of dampening matrix. How has it performed for you Hasp?
i have been liking the trade routes as a 1-off. I think at least 2 elsewhere flask is necessary to get the critical mass of eggs. cutting a sculptor for another egg is likely the way to go. you may also consider moving your second wincon to the side and adding a retriever or remand depending on how well remand performs for you.
The only question I have about switchthetime's list is how the 3 E. sculptor 3 Mox split is working out. It seems a tad much and can lead to a few games where you fizzle because you don't draw into a cantrip. However, it does increase the likelihood of going off T3. How has it been in your play testing?
Congrats on the 4-0 win Hasp! I have to ask, how many of those were T3 wins? How often did mox opal take a part in that? What about T3 tron? Affinity feels like it can be a pretty bad MU (I've personally only faced up against em once and lost 0-2). What was your SB plan vs them? Storm really comes down to a race, and I think we do better post SB with nihil spellbombs completely crippling them. The tron MU is pretty smooth provided they don't resolve multiple O-stones.
Yeah, on paper lands really tend to clump if you aren't diligent with your shuffling. I think its because you physically group together all the lands you draw, and if you don't shuffle at least 7 times (from an article I read some years back over at TCGplayer I think?), your draws are gonna be less than random.
The video Hasp posted is great material for people who are just getting into the deck. The fact that the wins came so fast is also encouraging as to how explosive the deck really just is if the opponents don't put on the pressure. I actually wanna do videos for each of the popular MUs and how what we expect from the opponent changes the way we play (mostly true for the control MU).
More on the innovation front: I reaaaally wanna try out remands in the main deck. Probably taking out fabricate and trade routes. It will probably change the way the deck has to be played though, so I expect this little experiment to kind of overhaul my list if it proves successful.
Well, plan b is actually tezz overrun if I'm looking at it correctly. I can't say which decklist is better, but what I can tell you is to not disregard the deck so easily.
I apologize in advanced for the wall-of-text...
(Also, apparently my grammar and spelling. But I'm too lazy to go through the entire thing again so what the hey)
@TequilaFlavor -
In chronological order:
-The 20 land 4 mox setup is there because, as i said, the deck is less interested in "going-off" and more interested in playing a progressive game plan as indicated by...
-3x Emrakul (and more importantly: 2x tezz the seeker). Why the need for an increased win-con count? Because the idea isn't to drop KCI into OtV/Reward, it's to play a "fair" game with minimal cantripping (as indicated by the lower eggs count, and more importantly, the inclusion of mindstone [i.e. the option to filter is still there, but the acceleration effect is more the objective]). With this in mind, a win-con that "needs" you to draw your entire deck is out (pyrite and to a lesser extent; grapeshot), and the 18-21 (assuming 1 fetch into shockland) mana needed to cast a lethal banefire is a SIGNIFICANT (read: + ~20%) increase in mana needed to win over the 15 An emmy needs.
-The mixing of urza lands with citadels/glimmer void has 2 explanations. First, the deck has a back-up tron plan to generate the 15 mana for emmy. The glimmervoid/darksteel is there to aid in hitting metalcraft for opal, which is presumably a core engine in the deck as there are 4. He WANTS to draw into them as often as possible, and the deck is tuned to take full advantage of them (i.e. the inclusion of artifact lands).
-The use of more than 2 win-cons has been discussed above (he isn't "combo", the decreased eggs count necessitating an increase in ways to naturally draw into key cards).
-Remand has more utility than silence in a list that wants to play "fair". Plus it's card draw that is lost to the decreased eggs count. Swan song similarly lends itself more to an "all-in" approach.
-I assume faith's reward wass cut because you don't actually get a turn where you "combo-off". Its slowly going through eggs, then turning the 6 mana OtV into a very expensive Rite of Flame for emrakul/s.
-Since the deck is already playing counters and (presumably) holding back mana, an instant speed form of card draw (Thirst for Knowledge) is going to be beneficial to you. Thoughtcast probably comes down a turn later than thirst, and while serum visions is good draw filtering, its sorcery speed, and if you were gonna go that route anyways, why not just go for more eggs?
-Blood moon isnt nearly as crippling as you think. The critical CMC for the deck is a mere 4 mana, and the deck runs 7 ways to accelerate into 4 mana on T3. If you read through the breakfast at urza's thread, its oft repeated that Urza is just a plan b and not necessary for the deck to function. More over, the deck is NOT color screwed by blood moon much if at all since we run 8 chromatics and 4 prisms to color filter. The triple blue on Cryptic however doesn't play quite as well as the 4 colorless on KCI. And besides, there's only one copy (the more pertinent question regarding the inclusion of blood moon imo.)
-Tezzeret the Seeker is a multi-tasker, and as we've established, the deck isn't a "combo" deck per se. I can see him going out in MUs such as Zoo, but staying in and wreaking havoc in an MU such as UWR (which is a pretty terrible MU for the all-in combo version of the deck).
-Admittedly, Rest for the Weary is questionable. But I guess it buys you that turn you need vs heavy aggro, and is relevant in more MUs than say, leyline of sanctity. Wurmcoil is close to fundamentally the same as Emrakul in the "small" Zoo/ RDW MU. The fact that he can come down T3 off of tron, or minimal acceleration from KCI is a big bonus over Emmy. Phyrexian Unlife is also pretty questionable. Maybe there's some corner case interaction with it and one of the combos floating around? At any rate, it performs the same function as rest for the weary.
-Glimmervoid is superior to adakar wastes in a list tuned to activate metalcraft.
To summarize:
From my understanding by just looking at the list (I admittedly have no play testing experience with the deck whatsoever), It plays a fundamentally different game from the "typical" eggs decks, but with the occasional luckily-draw-everything-you-need-and-win-T3 explosiveness kept in. While that sort of explosiveness is less consistent, the list looks more tuned to take things slower, have more tricks up its sleeves (which stands to reason because if you are a pro player, you want a deck where you are able to leverage your skill), but still win with just as much prejudice as typical eggs lists.
As an analogy, the list above is "Tempo-twin" and the lists everyone is used to is "All-in twin".
I beg to differ with regards to that list. Iirc thats the list that went 7-3 in the recent PT. Its a different version of the deck to be sure, but I'm not convinced its "weaker". Its like the "tempo" version of the deck, that is, more resilient to disruption but not as explosive.
Id make a categorical rebuttal for each of the "poor" card choices you enumerated (and bow they are closer to "correct" of im understanding what it is really that the list is trying to do), but Im on my phone and its a massive pain to type.
Well, if you run into a guy with infinite life, you can just do a loop with 2x conjurer's for infinite storm with grapeshot, or myr retriever with conju bauble and/or a second myr retriever plus an etherium sculptor for infinite mana and/or storm. That or just deck em I guess. Haha.
The real question with regards to the land count is, which kind of consistent does the deck want to be? Consistent land drops or consistent cantriping to draw into the combo? What's the best ratio?
I definitely think you want some sort of draw/filtering effect as this is still a combo deck at heart. Is bob going to be enough to provide said effect? While I can see that this sort of deck would have a better game vs faster aggro, it seems to lose alot of its tools vs combo decks such as storm. Are the gains(?) vs aggro big enough to warrant the loses vs combo/control?
What other tools do jund colors bring to a scapeshift deck? What effects does black bring to the table that this deck wants more than what blue has to offer? Is it possible to play both colors side by side? Is it worth the loss of consistency?
Twin is really just the worst MU. It has both blue permission and a speedy combo, both of which the deck is weak to.
Pod is in our favor I do believe. Their beat down plan is slow, and unless they draw the nuts, they cant really combo-out before we do. And if WE draw the nuts, well there's just not much they can do about it.
I have to say that the games the deck losses are the games where it loses to itself. Barring hate or just terrible MUs, hitting lands is a major issue I have with the deck. I'm actually considering going up to 18 lands, adding a utility land into the mix. Maybe ghost quarter, darksteel citadel, or academy ruins.
I've actually just finished my own version of KCI Eggs, but I don't run the Tron lands, should I still take part in the discussion here and potentially post a deck list or is there another thread for a non-Tron KCI version ?
There's another thread for the non tron version. It's titled "Poached Eggs" or something along those lines. I highly recommend you try this version of eggs out though. Having tron to play with opens up alot of interesting things you can do with the deck, like win without any of the combo.
conjurer's bauble is a KEY egg IMO as it allows you to get back banefires lost to thoughtsieze etc. It also lets you run infinite loops with alternate win cons (pyrite spellbomb?) among other shenanigans.
edit: -addendum-
As for the land count, I do believe 16 (maybe 17 depending on what support cards you run) is the right number. You REALLY dont want to draw into lands once you start comboing out. And with good knowledge of which hands to mulligan and when, youll really start reaping the results with significantly fewer fizzles as the cantrips really help you draw out your deck and hit those land drops up to t4.
Fabricate really serves as a 5th KCI or a 2nd spine of ish sah for shenanigans. Lots of shenanigans to be had with spine of ish sah + KCI even without the combo
i also dont agree with the RoR over the FR. instant speed is reason enough to take FR over RoR, and the 1 extra CC is more of a draw back than the fact that you can only return stuff on the same turn you sac them. also, the single colored mana is more relevant than you think. also, i think 5 is the right number of sunrise effects. 6, again increases your fizzle rates.
granted, you run more cantrips than my build (which runs the full suite of eggs instead to up arti counts and consistency during early all ins) to dig yourself out of the above mentioned holes. but then again, why not just run more eggs as they both cantrip AND feed the combo?
I personally believe codex shredder is a mistake. Conjurer's bauble does pretty much the same thing and cycles for a card mid combo.
The green splash is interesting. I do believe however that you seem to be diluting your deck with too many non-artifacts. How has this affected your fizzle rates with t3 combo attempts? I find you want/need at least 3 artifacts including the KCI to be able to pull a t3 off without fizzling.
Lastly, how are you shoring up the Uxx MUs? i find those are pretty terrible for me.
Cheers
You can go infinite with 1 conjurer's bauble, 1 etherium sculptor, and 1 myr retriever in play. No need for 2. The egg you want is probably going to be a 1 mana egg like terrarion since you are going to be cutting a sculptor for it.
I actually really really like the sound of dampening matrix. How has it performed for you Hasp?
Congrats on the 4-0 win Hasp! I have to ask, how many of those were T3 wins? How often did mox opal take a part in that? What about T3 tron? Affinity feels like it can be a pretty bad MU (I've personally only faced up against em once and lost 0-2). What was your SB plan vs them? Storm really comes down to a race, and I think we do better post SB with nihil spellbombs completely crippling them. The tron MU is pretty smooth provided they don't resolve multiple O-stones.
The video Hasp posted is great material for people who are just getting into the deck. The fact that the wins came so fast is also encouraging as to how explosive the deck really just is if the opponents don't put on the pressure. I actually wanna do videos for each of the popular MUs and how what we expect from the opponent changes the way we play (mostly true for the control MU).
More on the innovation front: I reaaaally wanna try out remands in the main deck. Probably taking out fabricate and trade routes. It will probably change the way the deck has to be played though, so I expect this little experiment to kind of overhaul my list if it proves successful.
I was gonna suggest Grand Architect + Pili-Pala but then it isn't blue. Or an artifact.
Razormane MasticoreMolten-tail Masticore looks pretty sexy in a shell with Fauna Shaman actually.If only it wasn't so utterly dead to Rest in Peace...
(Also, apparently my grammar and spelling. But I'm too lazy to go through the entire thing again so what the hey)
@TequilaFlavor -
In chronological order:
-The 20 land 4 mox setup is there because, as i said, the deck is less interested in "going-off" and more interested in playing a progressive game plan as indicated by...
-3x Emrakul (and more importantly: 2x tezz the seeker). Why the need for an increased win-con count? Because the idea isn't to drop KCI into OtV/Reward, it's to play a "fair" game with minimal cantripping (as indicated by the lower eggs count, and more importantly, the inclusion of mindstone [i.e. the option to filter is still there, but the acceleration effect is more the objective]). With this in mind, a win-con that "needs" you to draw your entire deck is out (pyrite and to a lesser extent; grapeshot), and the 18-21 (assuming 1 fetch into shockland) mana needed to cast a lethal banefire is a SIGNIFICANT (read: + ~20%) increase in mana needed to win over the 15 An emmy needs.
-The mixing of urza lands with citadels/glimmer void has 2 explanations. First, the deck has a back-up tron plan to generate the 15 mana for emmy. The glimmervoid/darksteel is there to aid in hitting metalcraft for opal, which is presumably a core engine in the deck as there are 4. He WANTS to draw into them as often as possible, and the deck is tuned to take full advantage of them (i.e. the inclusion of artifact lands).
-The use of more than 2 win-cons has been discussed above (he isn't "combo", the decreased eggs count necessitating an increase in ways to naturally draw into key cards).
-Remand has more utility than silence in a list that wants to play "fair". Plus it's card draw that is lost to the decreased eggs count. Swan song similarly lends itself more to an "all-in" approach.
-I assume faith's reward wass cut because you don't actually get a turn where you "combo-off". Its slowly going through eggs, then turning the 6 mana OtV into a very expensive Rite of Flame for emrakul/s.
-Since the deck is already playing counters and (presumably) holding back mana, an instant speed form of card draw (Thirst for Knowledge) is going to be beneficial to you. Thoughtcast probably comes down a turn later than thirst, and while serum visions is good draw filtering, its sorcery speed, and if you were gonna go that route anyways, why not just go for more eggs?
-Blood moon isnt nearly as crippling as you think. The critical CMC for the deck is a mere 4 mana, and the deck runs 7 ways to accelerate into 4 mana on T3. If you read through the breakfast at urza's thread, its oft repeated that Urza is just a plan b and not necessary for the deck to function. More over, the deck is NOT color screwed by blood moon much if at all since we run 8 chromatics and 4 prisms to color filter. The triple blue on Cryptic however doesn't play quite as well as the 4 colorless on KCI. And besides, there's only one copy (the more pertinent question regarding the inclusion of blood moon imo.)
-Tezzeret the Seeker is a multi-tasker, and as we've established, the deck isn't a "combo" deck per se. I can see him going out in MUs such as Zoo, but staying in and wreaking havoc in an MU such as UWR (which is a pretty terrible MU for the all-in combo version of the deck).
-Admittedly, Rest for the Weary is questionable. But I guess it buys you that turn you need vs heavy aggro, and is relevant in more MUs than say, leyline of sanctity. Wurmcoil is close to fundamentally the same as Emrakul in the "small" Zoo/ RDW MU. The fact that he can come down T3 off of tron, or minimal acceleration from KCI is a big bonus over Emmy. Phyrexian Unlife is also pretty questionable. Maybe there's some corner case interaction with it and one of the combos floating around? At any rate, it performs the same function as rest for the weary.
-Glimmervoid is superior to adakar wastes in a list tuned to activate metalcraft.
To summarize:
From my understanding by just looking at the list (I admittedly have no play testing experience with the deck whatsoever), It plays a fundamentally different game from the "typical" eggs decks, but with the occasional luckily-draw-everything-you-need-and-win-T3 explosiveness kept in. While that sort of explosiveness is less consistent, the list looks more tuned to take things slower, have more tricks up its sleeves (which stands to reason because if you are a pro player, you want a deck where you are able to leverage your skill), but still win with just as much prejudice as typical eggs lists.
As an analogy, the list above is "Tempo-twin" and the lists everyone is used to is "All-in twin".
Id make a categorical rebuttal for each of the "poor" card choices you enumerated (and bow they are closer to "correct" of im understanding what it is really that the list is trying to do), but Im on my phone and its a massive pain to type.
The real question with regards to the land count is, which kind of consistent does the deck want to be? Consistent land drops or consistent cantriping to draw into the combo? What's the best ratio?
What other tools do jund colors bring to a scapeshift deck? What effects does black bring to the table that this deck wants more than what blue has to offer? Is it possible to play both colors side by side? Is it worth the loss of consistency?
Pod is in our favor I do believe. Their beat down plan is slow, and unless they draw the nuts, they cant really combo-out before we do. And if WE draw the nuts, well there's just not much they can do about it.
I have to say that the games the deck losses are the games where it loses to itself. Barring hate or just terrible MUs, hitting lands is a major issue I have with the deck. I'm actually considering going up to 18 lands, adding a utility land into the mix. Maybe ghost quarter, darksteel citadel, or academy ruins.
So what's the verdict on Mox Opal vs Etherium sculptor?
There's another thread for the non tron version. It's titled "Poached Eggs" or something along those lines. I highly recommend you try this version of eggs out though. Having tron to play with opens up alot of interesting things you can do with the deck, like win without any of the combo.