I've been splashing red for a while and this ha sbeen pretty effective, it gives you acess to a lot of silver bullets vs. Control while giving you stronger answers vs. aggro in the form of Anger of the Gods, of course i run Lifebane instead of Nightveil cause i want to be able to cast 1BB and 1RR as much as I can.
Vs. Enchantments your best deal is to either Seize/Duress it or run Ratchet Bomb.
Hexproof creatures are the reason i've started to run Anger of the Gods: It WILL wipe their board enough for you to deal with their hexproof creatures and for a bonus, it kills voice dead.
I've found that most decks suffer some way against Nightveil: Vs. aggro it's a good blocker that most of time needs to get removed by a burn (and blocks Phoenix, which is huge for me). Vs. Control it mills them and you may even cast some of their spell of exile their kill condition. Vs. Midrange you are likely to play their own spells (except vs. selesnya) so it's not really bad (also, it's PRETTY HARD for them to remove it).
The downside is that i'd stop running Anger since RR is pretty hard for this deck. Thoughts?
Which one is more appropriated for the current meta ?
BW Midrange seems to gain more threat consistency and more resilance on Obzedat, Elspeth and BBoV while being disruptive vs. control with Sin Collector.
In a overall, it feels that they're two different styled decks with both pros and cons, but i'm on doubt about which one I should build and which one is more "fit" for the current metagame.
Any advices are welcome
(Oh, and i'd rather not to talk about BWR Midrange cause Burning Earth is still a thing...)
I still don't own any Thoughtseize (and actually idk if i'd use it mainboard anyway). I've added 4 Lifebane Zombie instead of keep running Nightveil Specter cause i always end up being crushed by Obzedat, I also expect a good number of GWx decks on my local store.
I've dropped all the Angers to the SB. I felt it was pretty underwhelming on my tests against midrange and i believe this deck already has a plenty of cards that takes care of RDW or Boros.
I used to run Grey Merchant of Asphodel, but exhanged it for Pharika's Cure cause i felt it was pretty underwhelming against aggro. Underworld Cerberus has proven itself to be a quite good card against a plenty of matchups. There weren't any MU where i've regretted running it yet. Whip of Erebos as a 2-of to give in more pressure vs. Control and Midrange.
Suggestions are welcome.
ALSO, an important question: What are the advantages of this deck over BW Control? I see our list being more disruptive where their lists looks more resilent, it feels like "Strong disruption vs. Strong consistency" and i'd like to know what are the advantages of BR over BW.
Cerberus is amazing vs. control. they must counter it or respond to it with sphere or it will simply crush them by returning all your countered threats to your hand for you to replay them.
vs. aggro he is a strong threat and blocker but as someone else already stated, it may be bad if they kill it. but on the current evironment, i only see it being killed by black aggro decks or by your opponent making a 2 or 3 for 1 on it.
i think he is weaker vs. midrange, where he can get easily removed and they have enough strong threats to return.
@SoundofMadness - Aetherling seems kinda too weak with so many hasty creatures in aggro. It's pretty good against GWx and midrange though.
@Cipher - Good list you've got there. On the Read the Bones vs. Divination topic, it's kinda meta dependant: I haven't used Read the Bones on my deck cause i was expecting a lot of aggro but in a overall, RtB is better if life totals don't matter much.
I've been playing up with this list, i've decides to run less duals because i don't actually want many ETBT lands and straightly lose to Burning Earth. I've also decided to include counterspells to have a slightly better MU vs. Control.
I've been going back and forth between Omenspeaker and Magma Jet, Jet kills things but Omenspeaker stalls the game and helps against decks like GW Midrange by chump blocking a threat.
Opinions?
Hammer of Purphoros is a great mid-late game addition, specially vs. Control.
What do you gouys think ? Also, any thoughts about Underworld Cerberus? I've found it to be quite spectacular against Control and good against weenies aggro cause they can't remove it easily so its drawback isn't much of a problem.
Any thoughts on Desecration Demon as an finisher or beater on the tap-out / midrange version ? I've found it rather good against most decks if you can control their early game.
I haven't had the opportunity to test it better. The only time i've played it was to block Archangel of Thune. I think it's consistent though: against Aggro it blocks a lot of threats and againsto control it offers virtual CA. If i want to be more agressive, i'd swap it for Stormbreath Dragon.
A card that was pretty unspetacular for me was Ral Zarek, every single time i've drew it i wished it was something else.
Hello guys.
I'm new to this thread and have made a few brews on my current Grixis.
I've played a local event today and made 2-2-1, losing to a mirror match (his deck was more leaned towards beating midrange / control while mine was pretty much focused on dealing with aggro). There's the following list i've used:
As you guys can see, this one is pretty much: "Hate all the Aggro-Midrange maindeck and leave Control for the sideboard" tactic and it has worked pretty well at my opinion. I haven't run any Thoughtseize cause i don't own them yet, and a friend had borrowed my Dreadbore last FNM and wasn't able to give them back yesterday.
Round 1 - Grixis Control (0-2)
Game 1 i've lost against a mirror match, he was a lot more prepared for Control than I was, got crushed by Stormbreath Dragon.
Game 2 i've sided in almost all of my control hate, got thoughtseize'd twice but made it back with Jace's FoF, which took a Downfall. I've misplayed a lot on that match: Slaughter Game for Dragon when i've had removal on hand made me lose that match for a Rakdos' Return
Round 2 - Esper Control (1-0)
Game 1 was a close match: he kept attacking me with Sin Collector until i was able to kill it. I've won when he dropped Blood Baron of Vizkopa and countered my Away at eot, just to meet Mizzium Mortars and Jace, Memory Adept on my turn
Game 2 was a tough one, he only ran 1 of each threat (probably expecting slaughter game) and dropped an early Ashiok, which i gladly could Cyclonic Rift + Duress him (he've milled my Sphinx, so i believe that was pretty necessary since he tapped out for it). At the end, the board was my Aetherling vs. his Blood Baron of Vizkopa, but the time has run out before we could see its conclusion (which i'll admit that i'd probably lose that match)
Round 3 - Azorius Control (2-0)
This one was incredibly easier than I tought.
Turn 5 he tapped out for Divination + Ratchet Bomb, leaving him with 4 cards in hand. Gladly i've had a Rakdos Return in hand and he goes to 0 cards. Aetherling got the job done.
Game 2 i've duressed him multiple times (the 4 came during the match) taking out threats like Jace, Elspeth or Syncopate (so I could drop Sire of Insanity, which won the match by itself).
Round 4 - Selesnya Midrange (1-1)
Game one i've misplayed a lot (haven't spent enough removals cause i was waiting to overloard a Mizzium Mortars and was keeping Far Away for wurm tokens) and got crushed by it.
Game two was the toughest match of the night. I've responded to all of his threats early game and kept the fuel coming with Divination and Opportunity but a finisher haven't come for a long time and he dropped multiple Advent of the Wurm, which i killed and then dropped Trostani and Witchstalker and held the game with them until i've dropped Aetherling. He then played Archangel of Thune and kept the life coming while i was attacking him with Aetherling. Crypt Incursion won me the match by leaving me with 1 life when he was gone for an all-in and then didn't have enough life to survive another Aetherling attack. With only 3 minutes left, we've agreed it was a draw.
Game 5 - Boros Burn (2-0)
Basicly a monored deck which ran Emissary, Pyromancer and Chandra's Phoenix as its creatures and put together a ton of burn spells and Boros Charm.
Game 1 he has left me at 1 life and didn't got the last burn after i've took it out of him with Return. Aetherling got the job done again.
Game 2 i've sided in Dispel and Duress against him. I've had enough disruption to keep the pressure off and finished the game with Niv-Mizzet, which burned out all of his tokens or his Chandra's Phoenix whenever it came.
5th place in a 24 man tournament.
On a overall, i've liked its results but I think that keep this "anti-aggro midrange" maindeck may be a little too risky for this deck, what do you guys think ?
Just some random idea. It's based on a R/B Midrange deck that has been rolling around but i've added blue for Far / Away (which helps a lot on MUs where my opponent has a Baron in), Jace and SB cards. Suggestions are welcome.
I decided to run zero counters 'cause i believe that the format is too fast for them and that it would break the deck's nature of being able to tap out for threats without worring about having mana up for counter.
So, which control deck do you guys think that will be the most efficient one with Theros ? I believe it'll be either Esper or Grixis (with some possibility of UWR as well)
Esper seems like the most complete one: It has a decent sweeper, discard, can be powered up by Sphinx's Revelation, also it have some pretty decent removal.
But i think sometimes it may be a little too slow on its threats or removals, getting outraced by RDW or Gruul decks if it won't get that Verdict on turn 4.
Grixis seems more suited for a disruptive deck: The deck loses the power of Sphinx and Supreme Verdict but gains stronger removal (and burn to the face as well) and strong mid-late game disruption in the form of Rakdos's Return.
Its downside is that it doesn't have a sweeper to deal with bigger threats and the lack of lifegain and massive CA in the form of Sphinx's Revelation (although Opportunity does a good job, but not as good as Sphinx).
UWR seems more suited for an aggro-oriented meta. The deck gains almost all the fastest removals of the format and gains a pretty decent lifegain in the form of Warleader's Helix. But it becomes too easily disrupted and lacks answers against silver bullet cards such as Slaughter Game or a well-played Rakdos's Return.
I haven't tried Unexpected Results yet but it feels kinda "Meh" for its random effect
Lightning Strike is instant (hence deals faster with zealot or other hasty annoying weenies) and hits planeswalkers, which is a BIG difference for this deck. Doom Blade targets, which is important against Smiters, Wurm tokens, dragons, etc. I may swap one for Devour Flesh cuz it becomes almost impossible to deal with a Witchstalker when they drop a Caryatid and you don't have a sweeper in hand.
Perimeter tends to be a faster wincon. There were quite a few times where i've dropped a turn 2-4 Perimeter and started to burn my opponent out while taking out his threats. It's also another good and permanent way to deal with Planeswalkers.
I'm running a total of 12 red mana sources, it has been working well for me.
Although I must admit that splashing G may be a better choice.
Vs. Enchantments your best deal is to either Seize/Duress it or run Ratchet Bomb.
Hexproof creatures are the reason i've started to run Anger of the Gods: It WILL wipe their board enough for you to deal with their hexproof creatures and for a bonus, it kills voice dead.
BTW, did anyone thought about a more devotion-based version ?☺
4x Rakdos Guildgate
1x Mountain
16x Swamp
4x Desecration Demon
4x Lifebane Zombie
3x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3x Nightveil Specter
2x Master of Cruelties
1x Whip of Erebos
3x Devour Flesh
3x Pharika's Cure
3x Doom Blade
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Dreadbore
2x Rakdos's Return
I've found that most decks suffer some way against Nightveil: Vs. aggro it's a good blocker that most of time needs to get removed by a burn (and blocks Phoenix, which is huge for me). Vs. Control it mills them and you may even cast some of their spell of exile their kill condition. Vs. Midrange you are likely to play their own spells (except vs. selesnya) so it's not really bad (also, it's PRETTY HARD for them to remove it).
The downside is that i'd stop running Anger since RR is pretty hard for this deck. Thoughts?
BW Midrange seems to gain more threat consistency and more resilance on Obzedat, Elspeth and BBoV while being disruptive vs. control with Sin Collector.
BR sounds more disruptive. It's threats aren't that resilent (Stormbreath Dragon is the most resilent threat for BR) but we get a decent sweeper on Anger of the Gods and strong disruption between Rakdos's Return, Slaughter Game and Sire of insanity.
In a overall, it feels that they're two different styled decks with both pros and cons, but i'm on doubt about which one I should build and which one is more "fit" for the current metagame.
Any advices are welcome
(Oh, and i'd rather not to talk about BWR Midrange cause Burning Earth is still a thing...)
4x Rakdos Guildgate
15x Swamp
2x Mountain
4x Desecration Demon
4x Lifebane Zombie
2x Sire of Insanity
2x Underworld Cerberus
1x Underworld Connections
4x Devour Flesh
3x Doom Blade
3x Hero's Downfall
3x Pharika's Cure
4x Read the Bones
2x Rakdos's Return
2x Dreadbore
4x Duress
2x Anger of the Gods
3x Slaughter Game
2x Crypt Incursion
1x Hero's Downfall
1x Pharika's Cure
1x Sire of Insanity
I still don't own any Thoughtseize (and actually idk if i'd use it mainboard anyway). I've added 4 Lifebane Zombie instead of keep running Nightveil Specter cause i always end up being crushed by Obzedat, I also expect a good number of GWx decks on my local store.
I've dropped all the Angers to the SB. I felt it was pretty underwhelming on my tests against midrange and i believe this deck already has a plenty of cards that takes care of RDW or Boros.
I used to run Grey Merchant of Asphodel, but exhanged it for Pharika's Cure cause i felt it was pretty underwhelming against aggro.
Underworld Cerberus has proven itself to be a quite good card against a plenty of matchups. There weren't any MU where i've regretted running it yet. Whip of Erebos as a 2-of to give in more pressure vs. Control and Midrange.
Suggestions are welcome.
ALSO, an important question: What are the advantages of this deck over BW Control? I see our list being more disruptive where their lists looks more resilent, it feels like "Strong disruption vs. Strong consistency" and i'd like to know what are the advantages of BR over BW.
vs. aggro he is a strong threat and blocker but as someone else already stated, it may be bad if they kill it. but on the current evironment, i only see it being killed by black aggro decks or by your opponent making a 2 or 3 for 1 on it.
i think he is weaker vs. midrange, where he can get easily removed and they have enough strong threats to return.
@Cipher - Good list you've got there. On the Read the Bones vs. Divination topic, it's kinda meta dependant: I haven't used Read the Bones on my deck cause i was expecting a lot of aggro but in a overall, RtB is better if life totals don't matter much.
I've been playing up with this list, i've decides to run less duals because i don't actually want many ETBT lands and straightly lose to Burning Earth. I've also decided to include counterspells to have a slightly better MU vs. Control.
4x Watery Grave
4x Steam Vents
6x Island
5x Mountain
5x Swamp
1x Aetherling
1x Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
2x Prognostic Sphinx (possibly changing to Stormbreath Dragon
3x Doom Blade
3x Far / Away
3x Magma Jet
3x Anger of the Gods
3x Syncopate
3x Psychic Strike
2x Shock
2x Dreadbore
2x Divination
2x Opportunity
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Inspiration
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Jace, Memory Adept
3x Slaughter Game
2x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
2x Shock
2x Negate
1x Dispel
1x Rakdos' Return
1x Sire of Insanity
1x Anger of the Gods
I've been going back and forth between Omenspeaker and Magma Jet, Jet kills things but Omenspeaker stalls the game and helps against decks like GW Midrange by chump blocking a threat.
Opinions?
4x Rakdos Guildgate
10x Swamp
6x Mountain
4x Desecration Demon
4x Stormbreath Dragon
2x Lifebane Zombie
2x Sire of Insanity
3x Doom Blade
3x Devour Flesh
3x Anger of the Gods
3x Read the Bones
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Dreadbore
2x Thoughtseize
2x Rakdos's Return
2x Rakdos Keyrune
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Hammer of Porphuros
3x Pharika's Cure
3x Mizzium Mortars
2x Thoughtseize
1x Devour Flesh
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Underworld Connections
Hammer of Purphoros is a great mid-late game addition, specially vs. Control.
What do you gouys think ? Also, any thoughts about Underworld Cerberus? I've found it to be quite spectacular against Control and good against weenies aggro cause they can't remove it easily so its drawback isn't much of a problem.
I haven't had the opportunity to test it better. The only time i've played it was to block Archangel of Thune. I think it's consistent though: against Aggro it blocks a lot of threats and againsto control it offers virtual CA. If i want to be more agressive, i'd swap it for Stormbreath Dragon.
A card that was pretty unspetacular for me was Ral Zarek, every single time i've drew it i wished it was something else.
I'm new to this thread and have made a few brews on my current Grixis.
I've played a local event today and made 2-2-1, losing to a mirror match (his deck was more leaned towards beating midrange / control while mine was pretty much focused on dealing with aggro). There's the following list i've used:
4x Watery Grave
4x Steam Vents
2x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Izzet Guildgate
1x Dimir Guildgate
3x Swamp
3x Island
3x Mountain
1x Aetherling
1x Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius
2x Prognostic Sphinx
3x Omenspeaker
4x Far / Away
3x Mizzium Mortars
3x Doom Blade
3x Anger of the Gods
3x Divination
2x Shock
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Opportunity
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
1x Jace, Memory Adept
1x Ral Zarek
1x Rakdos' Return
4x Duress
3x Dispel
2x Crypt Incursion
1x Sire of Insanity
As you guys can see, this one is pretty much: "Hate all the Aggro-Midrange maindeck and leave Control for the sideboard" tactic and it has worked pretty well at my opinion. I haven't run any Thoughtseize cause i don't own them yet, and a friend had borrowed my Dreadbore last FNM and wasn't able to give them back yesterday.
Round 1 - Grixis Control (0-2)
Game 1 i've lost against a mirror match, he was a lot more prepared for Control than I was, got crushed by Stormbreath Dragon.
Game 2 i've sided in almost all of my control hate, got thoughtseize'd twice but made it back with Jace's FoF, which took a Downfall. I've misplayed a lot on that match: Slaughter Game for Dragon when i've had removal on hand made me lose that match for a Rakdos' Return
Round 2 - Esper Control (1-0)
Game 1 was a close match: he kept attacking me with Sin Collector until i was able to kill it. I've won when he dropped Blood Baron of Vizkopa and countered my Away at eot, just to meet Mizzium Mortars and Jace, Memory Adept on my turn
Game 2 was a tough one, he only ran 1 of each threat (probably expecting slaughter game) and dropped an early Ashiok, which i gladly could Cyclonic Rift + Duress him (he've milled my Sphinx, so i believe that was pretty necessary since he tapped out for it). At the end, the board was my Aetherling vs. his Blood Baron of Vizkopa, but the time has run out before we could see its conclusion (which i'll admit that i'd probably lose that match)
Round 3 - Azorius Control (2-0)
This one was incredibly easier than I tought.
Turn 5 he tapped out for Divination + Ratchet Bomb, leaving him with 4 cards in hand. Gladly i've had a Rakdos Return in hand and he goes to 0 cards. Aetherling got the job done.
Game 2 i've duressed him multiple times (the 4 came during the match) taking out threats like Jace, Elspeth or Syncopate (so I could drop Sire of Insanity, which won the match by itself).
Round 4 - Selesnya Midrange (1-1)
Game one i've misplayed a lot (haven't spent enough removals cause i was waiting to overloard a Mizzium Mortars and was keeping Far Away for wurm tokens) and got crushed by it.
Game two was the toughest match of the night. I've responded to all of his threats early game and kept the fuel coming with Divination and Opportunity but a finisher haven't come for a long time and he dropped multiple Advent of the Wurm, which i killed and then dropped Trostani and Witchstalker and held the game with them until i've dropped Aetherling. He then played Archangel of Thune and kept the life coming while i was attacking him with Aetherling. Crypt Incursion won me the match by leaving me with 1 life when he was gone for an all-in and then didn't have enough life to survive another Aetherling attack. With only 3 minutes left, we've agreed it was a draw.
Game 5 - Boros Burn (2-0)
Basicly a monored deck which ran Emissary, Pyromancer and Chandra's Phoenix as its creatures and put together a ton of burn spells and Boros Charm.
Game 1 he has left me at 1 life and didn't got the last burn after i've took it out of him with Return. Aetherling got the job done again.
Game 2 i've sided in Dispel and Duress against him. I've had enough disruption to keep the pressure off and finished the game with Niv-Mizzet, which burned out all of his tokens or his Chandra's Phoenix whenever it came.
5th place in a 24 man tournament.
On a overall, i've liked its results but I think that keep this "anti-aggro midrange" maindeck may be a little too risky for this deck, what do you guys think ?
I decided to run zero counters 'cause i believe that the format is too fast for them and that it would break the deck's nature of being able to tap out for threats without worring about having mana up for counter.
4x Steam Vents
2x Rakdos Guildgate
2x Izzet Guildgate
6x Mountain
3x Swamp
3x Island
4x Stormbreath Dragon
4x Desecration Demon
3x Mindsparker
2x Underworld Cerberus
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Hammer of Purphoros
1x Underworld Connections
4x Far / Away
3x Doom Blade
3x Dreadbore
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Rakdos' Return
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Thoughtseize
4x Duress
2x Cyclonic Rift
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Doom Blade
1x Anger of the Gods
1x Sire of Insanity
Esper seems like the most complete one: It has a decent sweeper, discard, can be powered up by Sphinx's Revelation, also it have some pretty decent removal.
But i think sometimes it may be a little too slow on its threats or removals, getting outraced by RDW or Gruul decks if it won't get that Verdict on turn 4.
Grixis seems more suited for a disruptive deck: The deck loses the power of Sphinx and Supreme Verdict but gains stronger removal (and burn to the face as well) and strong mid-late game disruption in the form of Rakdos's Return.
Its downside is that it doesn't have a sweeper to deal with bigger threats and the lack of lifegain and massive CA in the form of Sphinx's Revelation (although Opportunity does a good job, but not as good as Sphinx).
UWR seems more suited for an aggro-oriented meta. The deck gains almost all the fastest removals of the format and gains a pretty decent lifegain in the form of Warleader's Helix. But it becomes too easily disrupted and lacks answers against silver bullet cards such as Slaughter Game or a well-played Rakdos's Return.
So, what are your opinions ?
I haven't tried Unexpected Results yet but it feels kinda "Meh" for its random effect
Lightning Strike is instant (hence deals faster with zealot or other hasty annoying weenies) and hits planeswalkers, which is a BIG difference for this deck.
Doom Blade targets, which is important against Smiters, Wurm tokens, dragons, etc. I may swap one for Devour Flesh cuz it becomes almost impossible to deal with a Witchstalker when they drop a Caryatid and you don't have a sweeper in hand.
Perimeter tends to be a faster wincon. There were quite a few times where i've dropped a turn 2-4 Perimeter and started to burn my opponent out while taking out his threats. It's also another good and permanent way to deal with Planeswalkers.