Pretty random thought, but what do all of you use for reminders / game state indicators?
I'm sure you've all seen storm players that have special tokens to indicate storm count / mana pools. There's another amulet player I know locally who has a bunch of token cards he's accumulated to indicate things like floating mana, pact triggers, land drops, etc. None of these things are _incredibly_ important, but it's good courtesy to make the game state as clear as possible for opponents, so I was curious what other people might use or have found to represent all of this stuff.
edit: "I just use dice and verbalize" is a good answer (and is what I do currently), just curious if anyone has other cool stuff to share.
Hey all, I've been dabbling with this deck since it's recent success and ran into an uncertain interaction you might be able to clear up.
Can Eldrazi Temple's second ability (producing 2 mana for eldrazi spells and abilities) be used for Eldrazi Obligator's "kicker" cost? Normally a moot point since you could use Temple to pay the main cost and other lands for the 'kicker' cost, but this has come up a few times with specifically Bloodbraid Elf, with the sequencing lining up that I can leave up 1 Eldrazi Temple but not 2 lands and you'd always like to have outs to pay for Obligator off of cascade.
I'm uncertain since the cost isn't a part of the spell's cost and it isn't a normal activated ability, but a triggered activated ability (might fall under the same umbrella?). I figured someone in this thread's probably run into this interaction by now.
Thanks for the feedback! I have a few thoughts on where the list is at right now & some of the questions.
Karn Liberated, for those curious, is a flex slot I'm testing (been liking it so far). The idea is that it's a supplementary bomb that we can actually find off of Ancient Stirrings, having a maindeck Vindicate is just gravy but the main point. It works out well in Bloom lists since turn 4 when bloom comes off of suspend, assuming no additional ramp, we actually have 7 mana rather than just 6 (4 lands + bloom), and ofc if we have a faster draw we can definitely cast it turn 3, which it turns out is pretty strong.
3 Azusa also might definitely be correct, not certain & I've been going back and forth between 2 and 3. In general I think that Bloom makes Azusa a little less critical, though.
As for Scout vs Bloom, I can definitely see the argument that scouts = chumps for Jace, but I don't buy the argument that excluding 4 more targets for Push / Bolt that need to survive for a turn to do anything makes Push / Bolt better against us. My thought was that with the meta getting more interactive (which it definitely seems to be) I'd rather not depend on a turn 1 dork and have blooms instead. Another angle is that Bloom openers just require fewer cards in total to 'go off', vs Scout which is the opposite, doing nothing if you don't have enough lands to maximize the ability. That might seem like an odd observation, but basically to me that means I have more room in a Bloom list for cards like Jace that are neither lands or ramp spells than I would in a Scout list. Granted, this is the first Jace list I've been testing so I haven't tried it with Scouts yet, but that was my reasoning.
On Explore, while it's true that it ramps out Jace, it wasn't actually meant as a Scout stand-in but actually was a replacement for Serum Visions in this list. In general I felt like Bloom lists were lacking ramp and were sometimes too dependant on Blooms, enter Explore to act as both a cantrip and ramp, as well as a turn-2 titan enabler with double Amulet. Explore is also another card that's better in a more interactive / disruptive format.
As for Kessig Wolf Run, I totally agree in theory and was running Sunhome in that slot, and just keep flip-flopping since I'm addicted to Kessig.
On the Bonfires, at this Point I'm pretty conviced that I want 2 in my board. I've actually been using them for awhile, pre-Jace (although the miracle + brainstorm combo is pretty great), though I previously had a 2 Bonfire 1 Pyroclasm split. I've found that in a lot of this situations where you *really* need the faster wipe Bonfire for 1 will still get work done, and in general there aren't many matchups that you can't afford to wait 1 extra turn for, but maybe I haven't been rolled by Elves enough. Big thing is that Bonfire does a lot more work than Pyroclasm; it gets much better the longer the game goes, has much more impact on the board when cast most of the time, and can still be very good against midrangier creature decks (bant coco decks, for example), plus it can kill planeswalkers and players, whereas Pyroclasm is pretty narrow. You get all of those upsides at the cost of not being able to jam it on turn 2, which to me seems fine. A split might be better, but I wouldn't want to cut bonfire entirely.
As far as how Jace has actually been playing out so far, I wouldn't really compare it to Tracker, honestly. Tracker is great since it's another threat that can beat down and block, and can grind with pure card volume over time. Jace, on the other hand, gives a ridiculous amount of immediate card selection that Tracker just doesn't compete with, however it just isn't viable as a threat on its own (definitely not winning with his ult, though I guess it could happen against lantern or something).
In general Jace-storming sets up our busted 'combo' turns, and it does that very well. After a brainstorm you're all but guaranteed to be slamming a Titan, if you already have one then Jace can get you 2, or get you additional Amulets, etc. In that sense, Jace is a ton of pressure on the opponent since if they leave him alone you're almost certainly going off next turn, but if they expend resources on Jace they may not survive the Titans. He's actually been decent with Bloom because of the surplus mana you often have on turn 4 when Bloom comes off suspend, sometimes letting you cast both a Titan and a Jace in the same turn (assuming you didn't have the opportunity for lethal) and letting your opponent figure out which to deal with.
Other minor cool stuff includes brainstorming to get rid of extra Blooms later in the game (same would be true for Scouts), and having outs to -1 bounce an opponent's only threat can be pretty handy too.
Has anyone given any thought to Oath of Nissa? I've been testing with a few copies as a supplement to Ancient Stirrings; while it doesn't get specifically Amulet, it can get Titans which Stirrings can't do (and it gets you bouncelands, which is often what you want anyways). I like it a lot more than Serum Visions, almost entirely because it's much easier to cast.
I'm treating the rider text about using any mana for planeswalker spells as flavor text, fyi (though I do think testing with something like Karn Liberated or Chandra, Flamecaller as supplementary threats has merit).
As I've been mulling over splash options and was considering Red since it seems to support the most sideboard slots (so easiest mana), I got really intrigued by the idea of Molten Vortex.
Has anyone tried that card out? It seems really interesting, sort of reminds me of punishing fire with how easy it is to get extra lands to pitch. it could also work fairly well with Ramunap Excavator (as a one-of tutor target).
Hmm, so in that case, it seems like some cheap early creature interaction could really shore up a lot of those bad matchups in category 2 (I'm just going to go out on a limb and say I don't think we're going to figure out how a deck with 8+ bounce lands has a good Blood Moon matchup).
Has anyone tried Fatal Push? It seems like you could get a list together in a similar fashion to the list on the last page featuring maindeck Paths; emphasize Golgari Rot Farms, a few Blooming Marshes, and it makes maindeck Bojuka Bog go up in value. Plus, bounce lands make triggering revolt pretty trivial despite our lack of fetchlands.
It seems like in a lot of cases a single early removal spell could buy us a full turn against those decks. Bolt could also be reasonable and would require stretching our mana less, so there's that as well.
edit: not sure about the Burn matchup, but if that's also rough, Collective Brutality becomes a fantastic sideboard option that's applicable against the other small creature decks
edit edit: this could also be a good excuse to fit a slaughter pact back into the deck, which could help the "slam Titan, watch opponent untap and win" problem.
To give a little context, I'm mostly interested in Tireless Trackeroutside the context of having a Primeval Titan to go with it, and I agree that cards to improve on Titan are win-more. I'm interested in Tracker as an alternative beater & in its synergy with Azusa and Scout, to continue drawing you cards and ensure you can take full advantage of the additional land drops (whereas without a CA engine I sometimes find I have a ton of extra land drops without enough lands to play).
For Magus, I generally agree on your points; it's essentially a mana dork that taps for mana equal to the number of bounce lands you have in play. For the curve reasons you mentioned I actually think Magus is ideal in a list with Explores, giving you more action on the turn 2 scenario you mentioned (having 2 mana with nothing to spend it on). The most interesting thing about the card though, in my opinion, is the option to double-activate ability lands, and magus could be a lot stronger in a list with some additional lands with tap abilites. Who knows, it might be a reason to test one of Ixalan's legendary flip lands.
Another card I suspect some of the people in this thread may have tested with but I don't see mentioned is Oracle of Mul-Daya, any thoughts?
Lastly, (sorry to diverge into so many directions) can anyone give me a quick high-level overview of this deck's bad matchups? It'd just give me a much better idea of what to try in the flex slots, as I'm not that experienced with the matchups & I imagine they've changed a fair bit since the early days of pre-ban Amulet.
Hey all, new to the thread, but I was wondering what thoughts were on Tireless Tracker? I was thinking 1-2 copies, somewhere in the 75 (I want to test them maindeck personally), since this deck seems to be the best in the format to abuse it.
It helps grind through the "Endless removal" scenario mentioned above, and can easily grow large enough to close the game as a backup threat, and can also just come down earlier to ensure we keep drawing and hitting land drops. With Amulet and Bouncelands our land drops also conveniently produce 2 mana, which works out very cleanly with Tracker.
I'm also curious if anyone's looked at another card that might be good (though I'm much more skeptical): Magus of the Candelabra. On it's face it certainly doesn't seem worse than Sakura-Tribe Scout, since they have an identical worse-case scenario (pay 1 mana, dies to removal before you can activate).
Sorry if this has all come up already, I'll admit I didn't ready the previous 140 pages in the thread.
Another option not mentioned is Lingering Souls. The card in general causes problems for aggro decks built around small creatures, like Infect and Affinity; since all of their creatures are 1/1 they generally have to trade creatures or pump spells to get through all of the tokens, netting you a ton of extra time and resources.
Otherwise, as others have said, mana-efficient removal is generically strong against infect & a lot of the format in general.
I have 2 flex slots so I've been exploring a lot of options. The slots have been things like Dismember and Spellskite in the past.
Obviously we can't produce as much mana as Eldrazi Tron, but the upside of being able to run fewer copies of Ballista & find them with Stirrings, along with them being nigh-unbeatable in the matchups that they're the best in (one of which is the problematic CoCo decks), could probably compensate for it.
The intended play was to search for a Craterhoof Behemoth and let the Metamorph persist as a second copy of Craterhoof, but I'm not 100% certain which will enter first: the creature being tutored by Natural Order, or the creature persisting after being sac'ed to that same Natural Order.
If the sacrifice were a part of the resolution of the spell then it would be cut-and-dry, the persist would go on the stack after the spell finishes resolving, but because the sacrifice is an additional cost and not part of the resolution I'm unsure.
Quick update to the list I've been testing. I went ahead and trimmed Sanctum and Mox Opal to make room for Glint-Nest Crane and Temur Battle Rage; for now I'm testing Battle Rage over the other options since it's the only option discussed that can also cut a turn off of our clock. I also tested with Key to the City and did like it, so there's a chance that something with artifact synergies is a better fit there. I also swapped one talisman from UB to RB to support Battle Rage since I trimmed on Mox Opals and needed another red source. Update the OP with all of this.
I'm sure you've all seen storm players that have special tokens to indicate storm count / mana pools. There's another amulet player I know locally who has a bunch of token cards he's accumulated to indicate things like floating mana, pact triggers, land drops, etc. None of these things are _incredibly_ important, but it's good courtesy to make the game state as clear as possible for opponents, so I was curious what other people might use or have found to represent all of this stuff.
edit: "I just use dice and verbalize" is a good answer (and is what I do currently), just curious if anyone has other cool stuff to share.
Can Eldrazi Temple's second ability (producing 2 mana for eldrazi spells and abilities) be used for Eldrazi Obligator's "kicker" cost? Normally a moot point since you could use Temple to pay the main cost and other lands for the 'kicker' cost, but this has come up a few times with specifically Bloodbraid Elf, with the sequencing lining up that I can leave up 1 Eldrazi Temple but not 2 lands and you'd always like to have outs to pay for Obligator off of cascade.
I'm uncertain since the cost isn't a part of the spell's cost and it isn't a normal activated ability, but a triggered activated ability (might fall under the same umbrella?). I figured someone in this thread's probably run into this interaction by now.
Karn Liberated, for those curious, is a flex slot I'm testing (been liking it so far). The idea is that it's a supplementary bomb that we can actually find off of Ancient Stirrings, having a maindeck Vindicate is just gravy but the main point. It works out well in Bloom lists since turn 4 when bloom comes off of suspend, assuming no additional ramp, we actually have 7 mana rather than just 6 (4 lands + bloom), and ofc if we have a faster draw we can definitely cast it turn 3, which it turns out is pretty strong.
3 Azusa also might definitely be correct, not certain & I've been going back and forth between 2 and 3. In general I think that Bloom makes Azusa a little less critical, though.
As for Scout vs Bloom, I can definitely see the argument that scouts = chumps for Jace, but I don't buy the argument that excluding 4 more targets for Push / Bolt that need to survive for a turn to do anything makes Push / Bolt better against us. My thought was that with the meta getting more interactive (which it definitely seems to be) I'd rather not depend on a turn 1 dork and have blooms instead. Another angle is that Bloom openers just require fewer cards in total to 'go off', vs Scout which is the opposite, doing nothing if you don't have enough lands to maximize the ability. That might seem like an odd observation, but basically to me that means I have more room in a Bloom list for cards like Jace that are neither lands or ramp spells than I would in a Scout list. Granted, this is the first Jace list I've been testing so I haven't tried it with Scouts yet, but that was my reasoning.
On Explore, while it's true that it ramps out Jace, it wasn't actually meant as a Scout stand-in but actually was a replacement for Serum Visions in this list. In general I felt like Bloom lists were lacking ramp and were sometimes too dependant on Blooms, enter Explore to act as both a cantrip and ramp, as well as a turn-2 titan enabler with double Amulet. Explore is also another card that's better in a more interactive / disruptive format.
As for Kessig Wolf Run, I totally agree in theory and was running Sunhome in that slot, and just keep flip-flopping since I'm addicted to Kessig.
On the Bonfires, at this Point I'm pretty conviced that I want 2 in my board. I've actually been using them for awhile, pre-Jace (although the miracle + brainstorm combo is pretty great), though I previously had a 2 Bonfire 1 Pyroclasm split. I've found that in a lot of this situations where you *really* need the faster wipe Bonfire for 1 will still get work done, and in general there aren't many matchups that you can't afford to wait 1 extra turn for, but maybe I haven't been rolled by Elves enough. Big thing is that Bonfire does a lot more work than Pyroclasm; it gets much better the longer the game goes, has much more impact on the board when cast most of the time, and can still be very good against midrangier creature decks (bant coco decks, for example), plus it can kill planeswalkers and players, whereas Pyroclasm is pretty narrow. You get all of those upsides at the cost of not being able to jam it on turn 2, which to me seems fine. A split might be better, but I wouldn't want to cut bonfire entirely.
As far as how Jace has actually been playing out so far, I wouldn't really compare it to Tracker, honestly. Tracker is great since it's another threat that can beat down and block, and can grind with pure card volume over time. Jace, on the other hand, gives a ridiculous amount of immediate card selection that Tracker just doesn't compete with, however it just isn't viable as a threat on its own (definitely not winning with his ult, though I guess it could happen against lantern or something).
In general Jace-storming sets up our busted 'combo' turns, and it does that very well. After a brainstorm you're all but guaranteed to be slamming a Titan, if you already have one then Jace can get you 2, or get you additional Amulets, etc. In that sense, Jace is a ton of pressure on the opponent since if they leave him alone you're almost certainly going off next turn, but if they expend resources on Jace they may not survive the Titans. He's actually been decent with Bloom because of the surplus mana you often have on turn 4 when Bloom comes off suspend, sometimes letting you cast both a Titan and a Jace in the same turn (assuming you didn't have the opportunity for lethal) and letting your opponent figure out which to deal with.
Other minor cool stuff includes brainstorming to get rid of extra Blooms later in the game (same would be true for Scouts), and having outs to -1 bounce an opponent's only threat can be pretty handy too.
4x Simic Growth Chamber
3x Gruul Turf
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Forest
2x Botanical Sanctum
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Radiant Fountain
1x Slayers' Stronghold
1x Temple of Mystery
1x Boros Garrison
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Vesuva
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Khalni Garden
1x Pact of Negation
1x Engineered Explosives
4x Lotus Bloom
4x Amulet of Vigor
4x Ancient Stirrings
3x Explore
2x Azusa, Lost but Seeking
2x Tireless Tracker
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Karn Liberated
4x Primeval Titan
4x Summoner's Pact
1x Ancient Grudge
2x Bonfire of the Damned
1x Cavern of Souls
2x Dismember
1x Hornet Queen
1x Nature's Claim
1x Obstinate Baloth
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
2x Swan Song
I'm treating the rider text about using any mana for planeswalker spells as flavor text, fyi (though I do think testing with something like Karn Liberated or Chandra, Flamecaller as supplementary threats has merit).
Has anyone tried that card out? It seems really interesting, sort of reminds me of punishing fire with how easy it is to get extra lands to pitch. it could also work fairly well with Ramunap Excavator (as a one-of tutor target).
Has anyone tried Fatal Push? It seems like you could get a list together in a similar fashion to the list on the last page featuring maindeck Paths; emphasize Golgari Rot Farms, a few Blooming Marshes, and it makes maindeck Bojuka Bog go up in value. Plus, bounce lands make triggering revolt pretty trivial despite our lack of fetchlands.
It seems like in a lot of cases a single early removal spell could buy us a full turn against those decks. Bolt could also be reasonable and would require stretching our mana less, so there's that as well.
edit: not sure about the Burn matchup, but if that's also rough, Collective Brutality becomes a fantastic sideboard option that's applicable against the other small creature decks
edit edit: this could also be a good excuse to fit a slaughter pact back into the deck, which could help the "slam Titan, watch opponent untap and win" problem.
To give a little context, I'm mostly interested in Tireless Tracker outside the context of having a Primeval Titan to go with it, and I agree that cards to improve on Titan are win-more. I'm interested in Tracker as an alternative beater & in its synergy with Azusa and Scout, to continue drawing you cards and ensure you can take full advantage of the additional land drops (whereas without a CA engine I sometimes find I have a ton of extra land drops without enough lands to play).
For Magus, I generally agree on your points; it's essentially a mana dork that taps for mana equal to the number of bounce lands you have in play. For the curve reasons you mentioned I actually think Magus is ideal in a list with Explores, giving you more action on the turn 2 scenario you mentioned (having 2 mana with nothing to spend it on). The most interesting thing about the card though, in my opinion, is the option to double-activate ability lands, and magus could be a lot stronger in a list with some additional lands with tap abilites. Who knows, it might be a reason to test one of Ixalan's legendary flip lands.
Another card I suspect some of the people in this thread may have tested with but I don't see mentioned is Oracle of Mul-Daya, any thoughts?
Lastly, (sorry to diverge into so many directions) can anyone give me a quick high-level overview of this deck's bad matchups? It'd just give me a much better idea of what to try in the flex slots, as I'm not that experienced with the matchups & I imagine they've changed a fair bit since the early days of pre-ban Amulet.
It helps grind through the "Endless removal" scenario mentioned above, and can easily grow large enough to close the game as a backup threat, and can also just come down earlier to ensure we keep drawing and hitting land drops. With Amulet and Bouncelands our land drops also conveniently produce 2 mana, which works out very cleanly with Tracker.
I'm also curious if anyone's looked at another card that might be good (though I'm much more skeptical): Magus of the Candelabra. On it's face it certainly doesn't seem worse than Sakura-Tribe Scout, since they have an identical worse-case scenario (pay 1 mana, dies to removal before you can activate).
Sorry if this has all come up already, I'll admit I didn't ready the previous 140 pages in the thread.
Otherwise, as others have said, mana-efficient removal is generically strong against infect & a lot of the format in general.
I have 2 flex slots so I've been exploring a lot of options. The slots have been things like Dismember and Spellskite in the past.
Obviously we can't produce as much mana as Eldrazi Tron, but the upside of being able to run fewer copies of Ballista & find them with Stirrings, along with them being nigh-unbeatable in the matchups that they're the best in (one of which is the problematic CoCo decks), could probably compensate for it.
Mirror Gallery simply says "Legend Rule", but I'm not sure if Planeswalker Uniqueness is a part of the Legend Rule umbrella or it's own thing.
I have a Phyrexian Metamorph in play as a copy of Woodfall Primus, and cast Natural Order sacrificing my Primus clone.
The intended play was to search for a Craterhoof Behemoth and let the Metamorph persist as a second copy of Craterhoof, but I'm not 100% certain which will enter first: the creature being tutored by Natural Order, or the creature persisting after being sac'ed to that same Natural Order.
If the sacrifice were a part of the resolution of the spell then it would be cut-and-dry, the persist would go on the stack after the spell finishes resolving, but because the sacrifice is an additional cost and not part of the resolution I'm unsure.
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Island
1x Mountain
1x Swamp
4x Fieldmist Borderpost
4x Veinfire Borderpost
4x Mistvein Borderpost
2x Mox Opal
3x Talisman of Dominance
1x Talisman of Indulgence
4x Treasure Mage
3x Glint-Nest Crane
4x Fatal Push
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Thoughtcast
4x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Sword of the Meek
2x Thopter Foundry
4x Thoughtseize
3x Blood Moon
2x Ghirapur Aether Grid
2x Collective Brutality
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Dispel
1x Stubborn Denial