I find that when I meticulously build a deck and have the full 100 planned and buy it that I get the least value out of it. I get bored of it, and it doesn't evolve or change and I scrap it rather quickly.
I think its dependent on the cards you want to run, and how your color spread ends up.
In esper, you might want to play cards like damnation, supreme verdict, cryptic command, esper charm, etc etc.
If you want all of those cards, you're probably going to be capped at about 2 mutavaults, and even that might be pushing it, depending on the exact list and the number of lands.
On the other hand, if you're playing esper, you might say "well I don't need as many/any boardwipes since I get paths, etc as removal" and you might not have deck space for cryptic commands, and the deck might turn out to not be very color intensive, in which case mutavault is alright.
If you play those cards, you should play real Esper Control instead. These together do not fit in Faeries.
I already play esper control (Y)
I remember why I moved away from faeries, spellstutters are great but they really lack any kind of threat power.
I think its dependent on the cards you want to run, and how your color spread ends up.
In esper, you might want to play cards like damnation, supreme verdict, cryptic command, esper charm, etc etc.
If you want all of those cards, you're probably going to be capped at about 2 mutavaults, and even that might be pushing it, depending on the exact list and the number of lands.
On the other hand, if you're playing esper, you might say "well I don't need as many/any boardwipes since I get paths, etc as removal" and you might not have deck space for cryptic commands, and the deck might turn out to not be very color intensive, in which case mutavault is alright.
appreciate the input, going to tinker with it, I know I ran 4 vaults in the past. I was playing the grixis list without as many cryptic, it seemed alright. If we're running supreme verdict and cryptic I definitely think 2 is the max. I'm going to do some testing then put up a list.
this is the list I'm testing right now, it feels pretty tight, i'm still trying to decide if i like or mainboard, hence leaving both in for now. it's a pretty good toss up so far though.
edit: fixed decklist, and formatting.
I needed to point this out on the first page, very tight list.
Also thinking about picking fae up again might mess with sultai or esper this time around. If we get a stoneforge unban I'll definitely do esper. Anyone have an Idea of what the sultai list would look like?
I tried to make this deck as viable for an open meta as possible, thus the 2 Collective Brutality.
Round 1: Nacatl Burn 1-2
G1 he kills me turn 3 with him on the play.
G2 I stabilize and get in hits with Colonnade
G3 was a rematch of game 1 but with me on a mulligan to 5.
Round 2: Bant Spirits 0-2
Slaughtered me both games casting multiple Spell Quellers and CoCos while I was drawing really poorly.
Round 3: Nacatl Burn 1-2
Was esentially a Re-match of round 1.
opponent was on the play G1 and G3 and got both games Turn3 kill.
Round 4: Jund 2-0
Wasn't even close, I completely wrecked my opponent as we usually do with Jund.
Round 5: Affinity 1-0
Won a really Grindy G1 and G2 we got to Turns but I was winning anyway. Just could not find Colonnades in like 45 cards in time but hey, I got there.
Round 6: Infect 1-1
G1 was super grindy and as my opponent was on a 2 turn clock he topdecked an Inkmoth Nexus with me having no answer.
G2 I answered all his threats and beat him down with Lingering Souls Tokens
G3 we went to turns but this one I would have won easily. I am a pretty fast player since I have good practice playing fast contol because I regularly play Legacy miracles which helped me a lot piloting control decks much faster. Only my Infect opponent had turns where he was tanking 5 minutes long over sequencing correctly despite having full information by Gitaxian Probe. I just did not want to call him out for slowplaying since our tournament was over anyway and he was a very nice an polite guy so we had a good time.
collective Brutality was very good and I suggest to others testing it. Even when it is "dead" we at least can drain for 2 or see their hand for information which is pretty cool. I chose running this card to have an as flexible as possible maindeck configuration for an open and unpredictable metagame. Prior to that I was running Condemn/Blessed Alliance in these slots so most of the time where they would have been good CB wasn't horrible. Of course it does not hit x/3 creatures or manlands but I had 2 Ghost quarter.
Speaking of GQ:
The manabase wasn't as smooth as usual but the landdestruction was very handy in many situations today. Also I wanted to have more game against tron.
Anyway: all the Matchups did not feel unwinable, except maybe Spirits (with multiple Dispel postboard). My burn opponents pretty much had their nuts hand in the winning games so there is not that much I could have done better. I played solid games, only misplaying once against spirits but then my opponent showed me a forth Spell queller so it would not have made any difference, would have lost either way.
Conclusion:
As a dedicated control player I really love this deck but in such a wide meta as modern consists of, I do not think there is any list where a control deck per se can compete well, especially with all this hyper-aggresive, linear strategies. You either draw the right cards or you lose on the spot. It isn't the same feeling as playing Legacy Miracles where you have at least game against the wohle field.
Oh if they would only print a functional Counterspell... I think this would a) benefit the modern format as a whole and b) push our deck into instant Tier1/2.
With all those situational counterspells and "legacy-powerlevel" threats I sometimes do not know how to compete because it always seems when I am losing it is due to drawing the wrong half of the deck. Like a Negate agains Bant Eldrazi or a Logic knot on turn 5+ agains Tron.
Ok, enough whining from my side
I really enjoy playing this deck but when Kaladesh is released I will be tinkering a UWR Draw-Go shell (similar to Wafo's) with the ned Chandra as a Pseudo Jace TMS.
Cheers guys
And sorry for the wall of text
The bolded bit is why I moved away from the pure control strategy and moved to a more proactive early game with it shifting to a draw-go game turn 3 onward.
Doing well, graduated in May, I've been working since, building my modern collection getting ready to start grinding the scg circuit. Life's been busy, but I've been playing enough edh to keep it entertaining (among my other hobbies). Playing damia elves, azami, savra, selvala, working on a few other projects. Also my friend started an edh website if you guys wanna check it out. *shameless plug* http://commandersociety.com/
It's like a laundry list of good / powerful cards in modern. And they're all cheap in mana cost, not clunky, and the mana is great.
My finisher (in leiu of easily disruptive stuff like angler or tasigur) , has been cavern of souls into Keranos or aetherling. Plus 4 tar pit / snap bolt
Can you message me list as well, I own grixis midrange anyway so it shouldn't be hard to make a full control list.
Aren't you scared of just building a weaker mentor's deck?
I'd argue the playstyle of this build is much different from a mentors list, this still holds the reactive elements of draw go but is also able to apply pressure early. Which is something the meta really needs. If I wanted to play a mentor deck I could but I don't feel that's well positioned right now. I think this deck has a good playstyle and a mentor list doesn't come close to replicating that. I'm interested in why you think this is just a weaker mentor list though.
Call me a blasphemer but I'm testing a new build because I've felt our grind game just really doesn't play well with the current meta. That statement has been corroborated a few times in the past few pages. This is my attempt to still play essentially a draw go deck with some more action versus the current meta.
2 Secure is left over from when I was running 3 leak before swapping to spell quellers. Probably could drop it by one. I don't have colonnades right now so I need a higher threat density, but even with the colonnades I don't think I'd cut much.
More testing has shown that I really don't want 3 verdict or the 2 secures. I think more discard and spot removal may be in the cards for me so I have more early interaction. Opinions, also do you feel this still belongs here as I'm trying for a more draw go strategy, I guess you could call it esper Flash.
The deck needs to be more interactive/disruptive in the early turns.
Let me start by saying that the cards I like the most (and the reason I like esper) are 4 Esper Charm, 4 Path to Exile and 4 Supreme Verdict. They are insanely well-positioned I want to build the deck around them. After those cads, I am not set in stone about anything else. I don't particularly care about being a pure control deck or some of the conclusions that are in the primer; I just care about winning. Right now the metagame dictates that it means you need to expend your mana more in the early turns and be more disruptive, or risk dying before flashbacking those Think Twices.
So here is the list I am running on magic online right now:
The sideboard should include planeswalkers, Lingering Souls, Condemn, Enginneered Explosives, Dispel, Negate, a single Stony Silence and your choice of hate against either burn or dredge. Sideboarding is hard and I don't have the numbers yet. The next step to deck optimization involves fitting out the necessary hate there, but it's difficult.
Let me explain my reasoning before you say: "but discard is a bad topdeck late game, and you cut a lot of card drawing and that's not what control is supposed to do". There has been a metagame shift with more and faster linear decks around, so the other control and midrange decks have adapted and are also focused on being low to ground to survive. The more popular lists of grixis and jeskai don't run a full set of Cryptic Commands. BGx is just full of creature removal game 1, with abzan running Grim Flayer over Dark Confidant. So you can afford to cut some of your card-advantage too and still beat them, just don't over-do-it. Instead of out-drawing then by a lot, you're out-drawing then by a little, but that's enough to win. You're still a favorite there.
The game plans with this deck are straight forward, and it's either a) set up a turn 4 supreme verdict against creature decks; b) set up two discard spells against combo/control/midrange, followed by running away with the deck with an X spell or cryptic commands. The difference is that now there is a tad more support to just staying alive in the between, and less drawing cards and sitting behind counterspells. The extra support is actually just Inquisition of Kozilek and more effective Logic Knots on turn 2. Not huge changes, after all.
I feel like the biggest innovation out of Olivier's Ruel GP Lille top64 deck is Inquisition of Kozilek with the mana to afford it, not the fourth color (or 61 cards). I've been happy incorporating it. I have also tried Spell Snare/Condenm in the slot, but Inquisition solves a larger range of problems and don't suck as much against spell-based combo. Running more counterspells would mean that sometimes you die without them doing anything relevant against their multiple 1-drops (or 2-drops on the play). Inquisition does help you live past turn 3 by taking a critical piece out of their hand, which is exactly what you neeed. Think how a lot of the linear decks just fold without one of their key components - the optimal way to pilot Death's Shadow Zoo, Affinity and Infect relies on agressive mulliganing unless there is one the 12-15 haymakers. That can be exploited.
You have 11 cards to interact early (path, inquisition, logic knot), plus Serum Visions to help find them, plus Snapcaster to seal the deal. That's about just enough to steal a realistic percentage of game 1's against their best hands (you can still beat their slower hands with wrath). Post-board you get to be as favorable as you want, because no one is really gunning to beat control.
I hope you guys give it a shot and share the results. I will be happy to answer specific questions.
I understand that I am new to this thread and that most of you guys here already have a set-in-stone mentality on what the deck should look like, so it's fine to do your thing and ignoring what I am saying. I have never been a pro, but I do have a ton of experience playing competitive at a very high level (more than a handful of PT appearences as part of a team, a GP top 8, a brazilian national title, and have been multiple times on the national team). I don't mean this to #humblebrag nor am I saying that I am more right because of this, but it felt pertinent to disclaim this so maybe you guys could have more of an open mind to those ideas, instead of rejecting them right away because they don't fit what the deck used to be. I learned a lot on this thread and wanted to contribute back, it's all.
Similar path to my thought process, my list on the previous page attempts to be more interactive with current meta. I have always liked playing iok and even thoughtseize at times when the meta demanded it.
Favorite card of all time? That's a difficult one, but I would have to say Sensei's Divining top, I collect them and alter them because I love the art and think there's so much you can do with it. Not to mention it's a great card.
I felt that way when I played red for bolts and snaps, but without it feels like it lags behind so much. Feels good to slam a sword on there though.
I already play esper control (Y)
I remember why I moved away from faeries, spellstutters are great but they really lack any kind of threat power.
appreciate the input, going to tinker with it, I know I ran 4 vaults in the past. I was playing the grixis list without as many cryptic, it seemed alright. If we're running supreme verdict and cryptic I definitely think 2 is the max. I'm going to do some testing then put up a list.
I needed to point this out on the first page, very tight list.
Also thinking about picking fae up again might mess with sultai or esper this time around. If we get a stoneforge unban I'll definitely do esper. Anyone have an Idea of what the sultai list would look like?
The bolded bit is why I moved away from the pure control strategy and moved to a more proactive early game with it shifting to a draw-go game turn 3 onward.
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Wall of Omens
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Spell Queller
3 Restoration angel
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
3 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
1 Condemn
2 Logic Knot
3 Esper Charm
2 Cryptic Command
2 supreme verdict
1 sphinx's revelation
This is what I'm working with right now to counteract the aggro strategies, it's been pretty good from testing.
Can you message me list as well, I own grixis midrange anyway so it shouldn't be hard to make a full control list.
I'd argue the playstyle of this build is much different from a mentors list, this still holds the reactive elements of draw go but is also able to apply pressure early. Which is something the meta really needs. If I wanted to play a mentor deck I could but I don't feel that's well positioned right now. I think this deck has a good playstyle and a mentor list doesn't come close to replicating that. I'm interested in why you think this is just a weaker mentor list though.
More testing has shown that I really don't want 3 verdict or the 2 secures. I think more discard and spot removal may be in the cards for me so I have more early interaction. Opinions, also do you feel this still belongs here as I'm trying for a more draw go strategy, I guess you could call it esper Flash.
Similar path to my thought process, my list on the previous page attempts to be more interactive with current meta. I have always liked playing iok and even thoughtseize at times when the meta demanded it.