Made an UPDATE to my Control List -- I've pretty much - atleast for now - nixed the Counter Burn list... it's simply not nearly as much fun as jamming Bolas and/or Ral, or even the Disinformation Campaign lists. Much more fun to be had than trying to grind and burn out your opponent.
I'm really HIGH on Discard effects right now - and so I'm examining Disinformation Campaign lists, but also have gone back to my Primary Control list till I iron out the kinks in the Campaign list.
How do you fare against Carnage Tyrant? I both hate and love that card and it seems like it would be a game-breaker for your Grixis Control deck if your opponent draws it. The lack of The Eldest Reborn is striking to me, both from a gameplay standpoint as well as a flavor standpoint.
Vona's Hunger deals with that creature just fine - but also; I recently made an update today and I agree... I've been debating and playing with having x2 Eldest Reborns Main, or in the Side.
Eldest Reborn is a great card with the Control Version and the Win Cons, but Vona's Hunger still deals with Carnage Tyrant efficiently.
So can you guys help me out here. Help pull the wool away from my eyes. Please explain to me why on earth you’d play a card like Risk Factor in a control deck? I understand in a burn but not in a deck like this. Especially when this deck has access to Chemister’s Insight. I mean, imo Browbeat was a pretty decent card and it saw nearly no play. This isn’t MUCH different and yes, it IS better but doesn’t belong in a non burn control deck.
No one suggested putting Risk Factor in a Draw Go - Passive - Permission Style Control deck. Relax.
Control is more than that Archetype, there's lots of Archetypes for Control shells...
Counter Burn with win cons such as Banefire and Lightning Strikes and Ionize combining together to put a good tempo clock on your opponent is still Control - and Risk Factor slots in nicely in that Control Archetype.
Excuse me? Risk Factor is a TERRIBLE card, in a control deck. Which, correct me if i'm wrong this is a control thread is it not? By all means however, play it and good decks will simply beat you. I'm just letting you know so you can wrap your head around playing cards that actually fit a deck or an archtype for that matter. Or are you the type of player that plays Night of Souls' Betrayal in a BW Token deck? sheesh....
Narrow - It's not a Terrible Card in the Right Deck - In the Right Deck it's actually an amazing card.
It's Terrible in a deck where you're looking to be out on Turn 10 waiting to drop a 5/4 Creature or a 5/5 Creature to beat down for 4 Turns.
It's a great card if you're having them be stuck at 10 Life or less around Turn 10 or earlier and then force the opponent to choose to take 4 more or let you Refuel your hand...
Do you have a sideboard for this deck? I like the look and feel of it and I have pretty much all of it. I am still fairly new to Magic and still struggle with my deckbuilding skill and trying to learn. what situations would cause me to sideboard certain cards and why?
I replied to you sir, sorry for the late response.
I haven't been on MTGS for awhile...
Hope my response helps!
PHEW --- Glad to see after I haven't been on here ina while, the Discussion picked up some!!!
This list has been my PRIMARY focus of testing over the last few weeks since the Set went live on MTGA and in Shops.
The deck has gone through a few minor tweeks from when I posted it in the Thread a few weeks back... the deck has tested extremely well on MTGA, and did well the first week I brought it to FNM.
I think it's a great deck... Bolas, as someone mentioned in another reply turns on Removal, yes... This is true, however; that's precisely what I want.
Turn on their Removal, but slowly Disrupt your Opponents Hand. This deck plays like a TEMPO Control deck. Drop Bolas out there, they either answer him, or they will probably die fairly quickly.
The great thing about BOLAS is late game, he becomes the Tool we use to REBOUND in Grindy Matchups too.
I've absolutely had plenty of mana in Grindy matchups to Cast Bolas and ACTIVATE him, Down Tick and get RAL out of the Graveyard and take over.
And Ral.... Geez, what can I say, this is a great card, I think alot of people are sleeping on this card.
I destroy the Teferi Decks, mostly due to the Disruption that Bolas and Black Discard spells give us... while also RAL will close out Games quickly.
It's definitely my FAVORITE deck to play right now, I love casting Bolas, and Ral, I think the pair make for a great wincondition.
That said, I'm still toying with my Creatureless COUNTER-BURN Control deck as well...
While I haven't TESTED this deck - and have only Gold Fished it... I think this deck is incredibly efficient, and I have actually sleeved it up to get it a test run this week.
I'm preparing for a IQ at my Shop and store Championship and some other events that are bigger than FNM and I wanted to give this deck a try.
While it's not nearly as fun, or flashy as Casting Bolas and going nuts with him, and then Casting RAL - I think the deck is every bit as good and has potential.
i honestly think it will be banned. It's too strong lol.
I had the same thought... I could see it being pretty busted in alot of decks, Aggro and Control - I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the first New Standard Bans in about 5 months or so.
Honestly I think risk factor would be insane in a boros aggro deck as well. Good for late re-fuel. They'll be low hp, so they either die or you get a possibly 3 more threats.
Ewwwwww..... Yea I think you're right, Risk Factor is pretty busted. I didn't even consider that, it could totally slot in Mono Red or BR/Boros Aggro Decks to Refuel.... #Spicy
[
you don't have insight in your V2 decklist, which is what I thought you were going for. also after watching risk factor at work, i honestly can't believe the card was printed. Talk about absolutely broken...
Edit: I now realize those two deck lists were from two separate people.
Yea, my Counter Burn list had x2 Insights in it, but I've actually since upped it to 3. Insight is really good too IMO.
Between Insights and the Risk Factors, you really dig through your deck quick to find the Banefires. It's really gross!
I agree, Risk Factor almost even feels good enough to play it in Non Burny Types of Control Decks... - It's INSTANT! lol
I also didn't want to go all 4 Insight because a deck like this, you're trying to stay pretty low on the Curve so you can cast multiple spells a Turn.
You still need to use some of the Burn Spells as Removal though, but with the Combination of Ionize + Risk Factor and then saving Banefires and Fight with Fire, you should still be able to finish off your Opponent pretty effectively.
In this build I tried to see what could be done without pw/creature based wincons.
There are a lot of great burn spells in this format.
I like the idea of just counter-burning the opp to death, bypassing creatures/planeswalkers entirely.
Ral G2 should be a nice surprise as well.
NOTES:
+ Dream Eater feels really good!
+ Bone Dragon feels really good with Surveil Mechanics and other cards that dump junk into the GY to fuel his ability.
So it's taken me a good deal of time to figure out how I want to put this deck together, but I've gotten some ideas and I think this will work at locals for the upcoming weeks, as well as gencon in Mid-August (only 20 days to go!)
I have been toying around with a similar idea. For me, MBC comes down to 1 card in Hour of Devastation Bontu's Last Reckoning. A 3 mana Damnation is just about the most absurdly powerful thing in standard, regardless of the drawback. That being said, the drawback on reckoning is a considerable, so I've been trying figure out the best way to utilize Reckoning, or what shell would be best to mitigate the drawback on it.
The solution I came up with is basically standard 8 rack. The idea is to just be a heavy hand disruption deck, essentially forcing opponents to either over commit to the board or have their hand stripped away from them. once the opponent has no hand and is top decking, reckoning has little to no drawback. The first draft I came up with is this
The list has no sideboard and is far from optimized, but it seems to me to be the best shell to make good use of Reckoning. A couple of notes on it:
This list is extremely low on Win Cons. The main one being Torment of Scarabs which I'm basically using as The Rack along with a possible Remorseless Punishment, both of which aim to just do direct damage to the opponent after stripping away all of their permanents and hand.
Mono black lets you add lots of different lands for utility, and I've only scratched the surface as for what's possible for utility lands. Blighted Fen has been a staple for heavy black control since it's been around, and something like Mirrorpool when combined with Remorseless Punishment can just win the game on the spot, theoretically capable of 20 points of damage.
This list that I threw together has 0 card draw or filtering, and I'm not sure if that's a mistake or not. Succumb to Temptation is a pretty bad card, but could give the deck some much needed velocity. What I did include however was a whopping 12 cycling lands, which will go a long way to prevent flooding, which is something that will just be a giant pain for this deck.
Anyways this is the brew I've been tinkering around with, would love to hear some feedback.
I really like it... very very very different and unique and I love that about it!!
The way I see it, if you're playing VS the Aggro decks, Bontu's really helps to set up sweet Punishments.
The reason Remorseless Punishment wasn't all that great before is because you cast it on 5 in a board where you're already behind and it just doesn't really do anything...
But if you play Bontu's on 3, your mana stays tapped on 4, then on 5 you cast Punishment, the board should be pretty clear the way I see it...
In my deck? Ammit doesn't strike me as a control card and doesn't really do anything for the deck in this respect. It fits more into a midrange deck, methinks. I foresee UW Monument, UR Control, and other control/aggro decks dominating the meta. Hail fire works best against midrange/combo decks, which is why I have it in my sideboard.
I've been toying with Ammit as a Tempo Card in Control Decks.
Drop him out on Turn 3, he's not super easy to kill, he doesn't die to Abrade, or Fatal Push, quite of few of the other cheap kill cards.
Takes a little work to kill...
And on Turn 3 he starts to put them on a clock, which requires them to answer it...
I see what you're saying though, especially if UW Monument picks up more and more steam and becomes a huge part of your Meta, they just chump block with a 1/1 Token and Ammit blanks.... That's a great point!
I've been toying around with some Mono Black Control lists though too, so I'll keep an eye on this thread.
Going back to my Primary Version - Grixis Control, which is very close to mirrored after the Jeskai Lists.
4x Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Spells (23)
2x Ritual of Soot
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Cast Down
2x Lava Coil
3x Lightning Strike
4x Sinister Sabotage
2x Syncopate
4x Chemister's Insight
Enchantment (3)
1x Search for Azcanta
2x The Eldest Reborn
4x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Land (26)
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Steam Vents
3x Sulfur Falls
4x Dragonskull Summit
1x Memorial to Genius
2x Dimir Guildgate
1x Island
1x Mountain
2x Swamp
1x Niv-Mizzet, Parun
1x Disdainful Stroke
3x Negate
2x Thought Erasure
1x Vona's Hunger
1x Ritual of Soot
1x Lava Coil
4x Moment of Craving
1x Fungal Infection
I'm really HIGH on Discard effects right now - and so I'm examining Disinformation Campaign lists, but also have gone back to my Primary Control list till I iron out the kinks in the Campaign list.
4x Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Spells (22)
1x Vona's Hunger
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Cast Down
2x Lava Coil
3x Lightning Strike
4x Sinister Sabotage
4x Chemister's Insight
2x Thought Erasure
Enchantment (4)
2x Search for Azcanta
2x The Eldest Reborn
4x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Land (26)
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
4x Dragonskull Summit
1x Memorial to Genius
1x Island
1x Mountain
3x Swamp
1x Niv-Mizzet, Parun
2x Disdainful Stroke
4x Negate
1x Unmoored Ego
1x Vona's Hunger
2x Golden Demise
4x Moment of Craving
As for where I am with my Disinformation Campaign deck, I'm going more for a Tempo Discard Midrange style of Control.
***UPDATED-EDITED***
4x Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
2x Doom Whisperer
2x Dream Eater
3x Blood Operative
Enchantment (6)
4x Disinformation Campaign
2x The Eldest Reborn
Instant (17)
2x Ritual of Soot
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Cast Down
2x Lava Coil
3x Lightning Strike
4x Thought Erasure
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
4x Dragonskull Summit
1x Memorial to Folly
1x Memorial to Genius
1x Island
3x Swamp
4x Thief of Sanity
1x Unmoored Ego
2x Negate
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Ritual of Soot
2x Golden Demise
4x Moment of Craving
The deck feels nice, playing really smooth, and I expect it'll be solid enough.
Vona's Hunger deals with that creature just fine - but also; I recently made an update today and I agree... I've been debating and playing with having x2 Eldest Reborns Main, or in the Side.
Eldest Reborn is a great card with the Control Version and the Win Cons, but Vona's Hunger still deals with Carnage Tyrant efficiently.
No one suggested putting Risk Factor in a Draw Go - Passive - Permission Style Control deck. Relax.
Control is more than that Archetype, there's lots of Archetypes for Control shells...
Counter Burn with win cons such as Banefire and Lightning Strikes and Ionize combining together to put a good tempo clock on your opponent is still Control - and Risk Factor slots in nicely in that Control Archetype.
Thank you - Agreed!
Narrow - It's not a Terrible Card in the Right Deck - In the Right Deck it's actually an amazing card.
It's Terrible in a deck where you're looking to be out on Turn 10 waiting to drop a 5/4 Creature or a 5/5 Creature to beat down for 4 Turns.
It's a great card if you're having them be stuck at 10 Life or less around Turn 10 or earlier and then force the opponent to choose to take 4 more or let you Refuel your hand...
#Perspective
I replied to you sir, sorry for the late response.
I haven't been on MTGS for awhile...
Hope my response helps!
PHEW --- Glad to see after I haven't been on here ina while, the Discussion picked up some!!!
That's great!
I wanted to send updates to both of my lists.
4x Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Spells (24)
1x Vona's Hunger
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Lava Coil
2x Cast Down
4x Lightning Strike
1x Price of Fame
4x Sinister Sabotage
4x Chemister's Insight
2x Thought Erasure
2x Search for Azcanta
Planeswalker (4)
4x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Land (26)
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Drowned Catacomb
2x Island
1x Memorial to Genius
1x Mountain
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Swamp
4x Watery Grave
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Golden Demise
4x Moment of Craving
4x Negate
2x Niv-Mizzet, Parun
1x Vona's Hunger
This list has been my PRIMARY focus of testing over the last few weeks since the Set went live on MTGA and in Shops.
The deck has gone through a few minor tweeks from when I posted it in the Thread a few weeks back... the deck has tested extremely well on MTGA, and did well the first week I brought it to FNM.
I think it's a great deck... Bolas, as someone mentioned in another reply turns on Removal, yes... This is true, however; that's precisely what I want.
Turn on their Removal, but slowly Disrupt your Opponents Hand. This deck plays like a TEMPO Control deck. Drop Bolas out there, they either answer him, or they will probably die fairly quickly.
The great thing about BOLAS is late game, he becomes the Tool we use to REBOUND in Grindy Matchups too.
I've absolutely had plenty of mana in Grindy matchups to Cast Bolas and ACTIVATE him, Down Tick and get RAL out of the Graveyard and take over.
And Ral.... Geez, what can I say, this is a great card, I think alot of people are sleeping on this card.
I destroy the Teferi Decks, mostly due to the Disruption that Bolas and Black Discard spells give us... while also RAL will close out Games quickly.
It's definitely my FAVORITE deck to play right now, I love casting Bolas, and Ral, I think the pair make for a great wincondition.
That said, I'm still toying with my Creatureless COUNTER-BURN Control deck as well...
Here's the latest list...
2x Banefire
1x Expansion // Explosion
4x Lightning Strike
4x Ionize
4x Risk Factor
Spells (17)
4x Chemister's Insight
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Cast Down
1x Price of Fame
1x Vona's Hunger
2x Lava Coil
3x Thought Erasure
2x Search for Azcanta
Land (26)
2x Cinder Barrens
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Drowned Catacomb
1x Island
3x Mountain
4x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Swamp
4x Watery Grave
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Golden Demise
4x Moment of Craving
4x Negate
2x Unmoored Ego
1x Vona's Hunger
While I haven't TESTED this deck - and have only Gold Fished it... I think this deck is incredibly efficient, and I have actually sleeved it up to get it a test run this week.
I'm preparing for a IQ at my Shop and store Championship and some other events that are bigger than FNM and I wanted to give this deck a try.
While it's not nearly as fun, or flashy as Casting Bolas and going nuts with him, and then Casting RAL - I think the deck is every bit as good and has potential.
I had the same thought... I could see it being pretty busted in alot of decks, Aggro and Control - I wouldn't be surprised if it was one of the first New Standard Bans in about 5 months or so.
Ewwwwww..... Yea I think you're right, Risk Factor is pretty busted. I didn't even consider that, it could totally slot in Mono Red or BR/Boros Aggro Decks to Refuel.... #Spicy
Yea, my Counter Burn list had x2 Insights in it, but I've actually since upped it to 3. Insight is really good too IMO.
Between Insights and the Risk Factors, you really dig through your deck quick to find the Banefires. It's really gross!
I agree, Risk Factor almost even feels good enough to play it in Non Burny Types of Control Decks... - It's INSTANT! lol
It's there in my List, atleast Chemister's Insight is - Risk Factor replaces the 3 drop Draw Spell of Notion Rain. Risk Factor is way better in a deck like this.
I also didn't want to go all 4 Insight because a deck like this, you're trying to stay pretty low on the Curve so you can cast multiple spells a Turn.
You still need to use some of the Burn Spells as Removal though, but with the Combination of Ionize + Risk Factor and then saving Banefires and Fight with Fire, you should still be able to finish off your Opponent pretty effectively.
I like the idea, with Assassin's Trophy sure to see a ton of play, Creatureless sounds super spicy...
Here's my take on a Grixis Counter Burn deck, I think you're really missing out not running Risk Factor.
2x Banefire
1x Fight with Fire
4x Lightning Strike
2x Ritual of Soot
2x Cast Down
2x Lava Coil
1x Vona's Hunger
4x Vraska's Contempt
4x Thought Erasure
4x Ionize
2x Chemister's Insight
4x Risk Factor
2x Search for Azcanta
Land (26)
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Drowned Catacomb
2x Island
2x Mountain
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Swamp
4x Watery Grave
4x Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Spells (24)
1x Ritual of Soot
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Cast Down
3x Lightning Strike
1x Vona's Hunger
2x Lava Coil
4x Sinister Sabotage
3x Thought Erasure
4x Chemister's Insight
2x Search for Azcanta
Planeswalker (4)
4x Ral, Izzet Viceroy
Land (26)
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Drowned Catacomb
2x Island
1x Memorial to Genius
1x Mountain
4x Steam Vents
4x Sulfur Falls
2x Swamp
4x Watery Grave
NOTES:
+ Ral, Izzet - Feels very powerful!
1x Bone Dragon
2x Dream Eater
4x Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
Spells (25)
2x Ritual of Soot
4x Vraska's Contempt
2x Cast Down
3x Lightning Strike
2x Moment of Craving
4x Thought Erasure
4x Sinister Sabotage
4x Chemister's Insight
2x Search for Azcanta
Land (26)
4x Dragonskull Summit
4x Drowned Catacomb
1x Island
1x Memorial to Genius
1x Mountain
4x Steam Vents
3x Sulfur Falls
4x Swamp
4x Watery Grave
NOTES:
+ Dream Eater feels really good!
+ Bone Dragon feels really good with Surveil Mechanics and other cards that dump junk into the GY to fuel his ability.
Have you tested Bolas?
You say "For a Worse Card" but that's definitely not the case.
If you're saying Chandra > Bolas because of some meta call, ok, I'm listening.
But to say Bolas is worse than Chandra, yea I think that's ridiculous.
Bolas is actually quite good and starts to take over a game immediately.
Chandra I admit probably can close out and finish a game quicker than Bolas, but they are very different cards.
I really like it... very very very different and unique and I love that about it!!
The way I see it, if you're playing VS the Aggro decks, Bontu's really helps to set up sweet Punishments.
The reason Remorseless Punishment wasn't all that great before is because you cast it on 5 in a board where you're already behind and it just doesn't really do anything...
But if you play Bontu's on 3, your mana stays tapped on 4, then on 5 you cast Punishment, the board should be pretty clear the way I see it...
I like it, let us know how you do!!!
I've been toying with Ammit as a Tempo Card in Control Decks.
Drop him out on Turn 3, he's not super easy to kill, he doesn't die to Abrade, or Fatal Push, quite of few of the other cheap kill cards.
Takes a little work to kill...
And on Turn 3 he starts to put them on a clock, which requires them to answer it...
I see what you're saying though, especially if UW Monument picks up more and more steam and becomes a huge part of your Meta, they just chump block with a 1/1 Token and Ammit blanks.... That's a great point!
I've been toying around with some Mono Black Control lists though too, so I'll keep an eye on this thread.
Prior to HOD without the HOD of course it was doing well, making some tweeks and fine tuning things to add in some HOD upgrades.
4x Canyon Slough
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Foreboding Ruins
4x Inspiring Vantage
2x Mountain
1x Needle Spires
4x Shambling Vent
3x Swamp
Planeswalker (8)
4x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2x Ob Nixilis Reignited
2x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Sorcery (12)
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
2x Doomfall
1x Fumigate
2x Never
1x Painful Truths
3x Radiant Flames
2x Transgress the Mind
3x Abrade
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Grasp of Darkness
2x Magma Spray
Enchantment (4)
4x Cast Out
1x Chandra's Defeat
2x Doomfall
2x Gideon's Defeat
2x Gonti, Lord of Luxury
1x Hour of Glory
2x Liliana's Defeat
1x Oketra's Last Mercy
1x Release the Gremlins
1x Torment of Hailfire
2x Transgress the Mind
My shop is on the heavier side of Aggro/Midrange.
Zombies, Humans, Red Aggro, GR Energy, GB Energy, GB Counters, lots of things like that first and foremost.
There are definitely a few Control decks as well, those are the ones that can be tricky and are usually sitting there in the Finals.
No - Torment of Hailfire?