has anyone looked into the list that top 8's the Protour
also, shrine is a 1 of.
Which list was that?
I saw one from TCGPlayer States Rhode Island, and one Silver TCQ from Huntsville. Are either of those protours? Even, if not, they're probably the best things we have going in MBC at the moment.
The Huntsville one ran 4 corrupt, which to me is the only reason to be in pure MBC, other than devotion....which was the theme in the Rhode Island list.
The rhode island one seems more interesting, but the sideboard looks like something out of a standard pauper MBC list:disciple of phenax, pharika's cure, quaq sickness, and stab wound. What's with the conditional enchantment removal?
I haven't tried MBC since theros came out, but shouldn't we be running 4 read the bones? I'm a much bigger fan of read the bones than underworld connection....oh....devotion? Still seems slow to me.
Exiling is considered leaving the battlefield. Whip of Erebos's replacement effect just forces the creature to go to the exile zone instead of "anywhere else". If it's not going to the exile zone, it's not going "anywhere else".
But yes, you would be able to exile your AEtherling as you describe, since the Whip doesn't care what happens to the AEtherling after it becomes exiled, only that it goes to exile.
No, if Obzedat goes to exile, it's not going "anywhere else," so the Whip's effect doesn't interfere in any way. The trigger to return Obzedat will work just fine, because Obzedat went directly to exile and didn't go anywhere else in the meantime.
So exiling is not "leaving the battlefield"? I could whip back an aetherling from my graveyard, exile it main phase after combat, and it will come back to stay? Just one of those moments that language, logic, and magic don't coexist in my mind if that's the case.
2) If you control both the Whip and Obzedat, you control both the Obzedat and the Whip triggers, and so you can put them on the stack in either order. Whichever one resolves first will be the ability that exiles Obzedat and, if it's Obzedat's ability that exiles itself, it will be able to return. Otherwise, it will not.
But doesn't the whip have this static ability?
"If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else"
So if Obzedat goes to exile it, this triggers, and the Obzedat trigger fizzles? I'm assuming when something gets exiled, it leaves the battlefield.
The tech I'm happiest about are the Child of Night, for vs RDW. That deck is extremely hard for me to beat without, and I've played it several times since the PTQ... Child of Night, jank that it is, makes such a huuuge difference. It's really pretty funny. I chose them over Gloom Surgeon purely because they gain me life, while having the same body. Both die just as easily to removal, but RDW can't easily attack into either one without. I'd much rather have a blocker that nets me 2 life before I Mutilate, because odds are, I Mutilate t4 regardless. Also, they are much better against aggressive decks if I ever have occasion to attack with them.
I was just thinking that I need some early lifegain to survive RDW, but Child of Night? Against Blitz decks Gloom Surgeon is a much hardier threat, and I can't find room for both. When you draw the Mutilate early, I could see the Child of Night being better though. I think I'll try him out, and endure the ridicule. My build is considerably different than yours, closer to the woods Mostly Black Control, but I have been having trouble with the latest incarnation of RDW. Thanks for the tip.
Alchemy nets you one card and dumps 3. Without things with flashback like think twice or lingering souls you gain no card advantage. Divination on the other hand gives you 2 cards for 1 which is immediately better but is a sorcery so it limits.
I agree with divination being the go to draw card. Think twice is nice but after rotation divination is where we will be unless theros gives us something.
Alchemy nets you zero cards if you cast it once (-1+1=0), and one card if you flash it back. Chapins list isn't really the draw-go that many here are talking about, so I can see why he would forgo the 10 mana instant speed investment to net one card and dig 8, or the 5 mana instant speed think twice, and instead pay 3 mana to net one card at sorcery speed. If he was running more instants he'd probably have TT/FA in there instead of divination and maybe even Jace?...na, he'd probably keep the Jace.
I do agree he's going to need more edicts in there.
I've never thought of Homicidal Seclusion as a competitive card before, but I know people have been brewing with it for a while, and I hope to be pleasantly surprised by its power in a deck like this.
I like where these are going. I would lose big Lily altogether though. Seems like her pump would be win more if you have seclusion online, and drawing lands isn't worth her cost. Instead I would run a rakdos return, and the 4th Mutilate.
Ratchet Bomb has never been in a competitive mainboard as long as it's been around. I don't mean this to be condescending, but what makes you think that it is better now? It's good against souls, that's it. Even then often times they will make you sacrifice it to kill half a lingering souls. There is no way 3 mainboard is correct. Also, it doesn't contribute to your gameplan at all. No synergy with snapcaster whatsoever, it isn't a win condition, all it is is a conditional sweeper. Magmaquake blows, but not so bad that we need to start mainboarding ratchet bomb. Sorry, but I can't get behind that card choice for even a second.
While I generally agree with you, I just wanted to point out that ratchet bomb was mainboard in some Tezzeret Control decks that did very well. If a token deck gets popular or is popular in your meta (I've seen some on MTGO with Voice of Resurgence and Advent of the wurm) one or two main deck might not be an absurd notion. Probably still best in the side unless the meta proves otherwise though.
The base idea in this deck is to control the lands available to your opponent. Just like any other control deck, you will have to take some points of damage after which you stabilize. Thragtusk was a major help in this process, but we didn't include him because he rotates soon.
Doesn't acidic slime, clone, disciple of bolas, havengul lich, farseek, forbidden alchemy, heartless summoning, hinterland harbor, woodland cemetery, drowned catacomb, and ghost quarter rotate soon as well?...just seems like a silly reason not to play the best green card when 50% of the rest of your deck falls under the same predicament. I don't play thragtusk in BUG for a completely different silly reason, just because everyone else who plays green plays it, so I appreciate the attempt to build without it. However, if I played disciple of bolas, I would play thragtusk.
Also, hearless summoning seems like wasted card when you're not really that top heavy with creatures, and run farseek. You're in green, you can ramp without having to give up -1/-1 on all your creatures, which other than sylvan primordial aren't that big to begin with. It also is anti-synergy with disciple of bolas, drawing one less card, and killing the disciple when it lands. Ramping instead of heartless also helps with early granite gaze and playing multiple non-creature spells in a turn. Then you wouldn't have to run biomancer to make up for the heartless....clearing up six cards for +4 thragtusk, +2 chromatic lantern, although you probably need more than 22 lands what with being a control deck in three colors and playing ghost quarters and all.
Obviously the list's been evolving, but I love playing blue mirrors, and the core cards for that matchup never changed. I believe that if you are fluent in the Control mirrors (easier said than done) then Grixis should dominate at least 60/40 assuming you have these in your list:
1.) 3-4x Nephalia Drownyard
2.) Access to at least 3 counterspells maindeck and at least 8 total after sideboarding, which includes Duress.
3.) 3-4x Think Twice
4.) 1-2x Jace, Memory Adept
5.) 1x Psychic Spiral
6.) 3x Snapcaster Mage
From that point, every one of the "Grixis Specials" you add in pump your win % over Esper. Izzet Charm allows you to filter dead removal against them game 1, essentially reading :symu::symr:: Counter target Sphinx's Revelation OR Draw 2 cards. Counterflux is the best defensive counter ever printed for mirrors. Rakdos's Return is significantly more powerful than Revelation in the mirror, assuming you know how to play the card (induce tap-outs from your opponent or cast it as a 3 card Blightning with countermagic up). Slaughter Games is sadder now that Bant isn't the primary Control mirror, since you can't name Thragtusk, but Revelation eventually becomes a problem once you've been grinded out of counterspells and both players approach topdeck mode. Combined with other targeted discard the card gets significantly stronger. Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker game 2 has a much higher chance at sticking (targeted discard lets you know if they have it), and is even stronger than Karn Liberated if that happens. Even Magmaquake, your sweeper, can kill planeswalkers, Augurs and Snapcasters at instant speed, while their Supreme Verdicts rot in their hand.
This is my build and Aggro is never an issue.
I sideboard -cavern, -2dissipates, -jace
+3 izzet staticasters, +1 pillar of flame
BTW I've played against 17 Aggro Decks this past weekend on MTGO. I am 14-3 against them. Only losing due to mulligans to 5 or extreme mana flood after establishing control of the game.
Just curious were those MTGO games in constructed two mans, tournament practice room, somewhere else?
Also, are you the same oyola that got second place in one of the MTGO Standard Premiers with the Grixis Duskmantle Seer deck? If so, Congrats!....I'm assuming the duskmantles weren't working out though?
Magmaquake and rolling temblor are not effective, they are conditional. They are dead to spirit tokens and angels which see plenty of play, and they don't do enough damage (greater than three to get rid of boros , and flint hoofs) when it counts. Compare that to supreme verdict which takes out flyers, and everything else other than undying, regen, and indestructible.
Grixis has dig, but to survive, draw + life is way better. And the later the game goes, the more the payout is. Take Forbidden Alchemy. It's a great card, but for a 10 mana investment you dig eight cards deep and hopefully find two answers. Take that 10 mana and run sphinx's revelation you dig seven cards, get seven cards, and gain seven life. And you get the versatility at casting it for 2, 3, 4, when you're still alive.
Rakdos' return is fine against control, great against midrange, but dead to aggro. Sphinx's revelation is good against everyone. So you could make a Grixis that kills Esper, but it will inherently be weaker to everyone else because it doesn't have the sweeper and the life gain which are key to survive the aggro blitz, and the midrange threat density. By the way, the best anti-sphinx card is not rakdos' return, but slaughter games.
Does anyone actually know why Grixis control isn't winning much right now?
Well no control is winning much right now because creatures are where the card advantage/quality/efficiency is at right now, so if you're not running aggro or midrange, you're not doing too good. Among control, Grixis isn't winning much because it doesn't have a sweeper, thragtusk, or sphinx's revelation. Sphinx's revelation is the bigger one that refills your hand and lets you survive to use it all at the end of your opponents turn.
Well I'm clearly aware I didn't input lands... It was more a question of whether Nephalia Drownyard and/or Desolate Lighthouse and Cavern of Souls are worth it, since the 3 on this page all run a differing amount of each. I'd like to know the general consensus.
Well I haven't tried grixis since page 83, when I couldn't find a way to make it work without a good early sweeper, but seems to me that 3-4 utility lands max is what you can get away with and still run 3 colors. If you have a meta with lots of blue control/midrange and you are counting on creatures to win you might want to sneak in some cavern of souls, otherwise Desolate Lighthouse is decent for filtering for answers. I never tried nephalia in Grixis, but it seems to me without a sweeper and a lifegain mechanism like sphinx's revelation, you're not often going to be going the very long game that you need to win from nephalia drownyard. I'm afraid you've come to the wrong thread for concensus though. Only consistent victories breed concensus, and there's not many Grixis control lists top 8ing anywhere competitive.
Which list was that?
I saw one from TCGPlayer States Rhode Island, and one Silver TCQ from Huntsville. Are either of those protours? Even, if not, they're probably the best things we have going in MBC at the moment.
The Huntsville one ran 4 corrupt, which to me is the only reason to be in pure MBC, other than devotion....which was the theme in the Rhode Island list.
The rhode island one seems more interesting, but the sideboard looks like something out of a standard pauper MBC list:disciple of phenax, pharika's cure, quaq sickness, and stab wound. What's with the conditional enchantment removal?
I haven't tried MBC since theros came out, but shouldn't we be running 4 read the bones? I'm a much bigger fan of read the bones than underworld connection....oh....devotion? Still seems slow to me.
OK...it's pretty shifty, but I'll buy it.
thx
So exiling is not "leaving the battlefield"? I could whip back an aetherling from my graveyard, exile it main phase after combat, and it will come back to stay? Just one of those moments that language, logic, and magic don't coexist in my mind if that's the case.
But doesn't the whip have this static ability?
"If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else"
So if Obzedat goes to exile it, this triggers, and the Obzedat trigger fizzles? I'm assuming when something gets exiled, it leaves the battlefield.
So if everybody on a forum agrees something is johnny, does it cease to be unique, and automatically stops being johnny?
I was just thinking that I need some early lifegain to survive RDW, but Child of Night? Against Blitz decks Gloom Surgeon is a much hardier threat, and I can't find room for both. When you draw the Mutilate early, I could see the Child of Night being better though. I think I'll try him out, and endure the ridicule. My build is considerably different than yours, closer to the woods Mostly Black Control, but I have been having trouble with the latest incarnation of RDW. Thanks for the tip.
Alchemy nets you zero cards if you cast it once (-1+1=0), and one card if you flash it back. Chapins list isn't really the draw-go that many here are talking about, so I can see why he would forgo the 10 mana instant speed investment to net one card and dig 8, or the 5 mana instant speed think twice, and instead pay 3 mana to net one card at sorcery speed. If he was running more instants he'd probably have TT/FA in there instead of divination and maybe even Jace?...na, he'd probably keep the Jace.
I do agree he's going to need more edicts in there.
I like where these are going. I would lose big Lily altogether though. Seems like her pump would be win more if you have seclusion online, and drawing lands isn't worth her cost. Instead I would run a rakdos return, and the 4th Mutilate.
While I generally agree with you, I just wanted to point out that ratchet bomb was mainboard in some Tezzeret Control decks that did very well. If a token deck gets popular or is popular in your meta (I've seen some on MTGO with Voice of Resurgence and Advent of the wurm) one or two main deck might not be an absurd notion. Probably still best in the side unless the meta proves otherwise though.
Doesn't acidic slime, clone, disciple of bolas, havengul lich, farseek, forbidden alchemy, heartless summoning, hinterland harbor, woodland cemetery, drowned catacomb, and ghost quarter rotate soon as well?...just seems like a silly reason not to play the best green card when 50% of the rest of your deck falls under the same predicament. I don't play thragtusk in BUG for a completely different silly reason, just because everyone else who plays green plays it, so I appreciate the attempt to build without it. However, if I played disciple of bolas, I would play thragtusk.
Also, hearless summoning seems like wasted card when you're not really that top heavy with creatures, and run farseek. You're in green, you can ramp without having to give up -1/-1 on all your creatures, which other than sylvan primordial aren't that big to begin with. It also is anti-synergy with disciple of bolas, drawing one less card, and killing the disciple when it lands. Ramping instead of heartless also helps with early granite gaze and playing multiple non-creature spells in a turn. Then you wouldn't have to run biomancer to make up for the heartless....clearing up six cards for +4 thragtusk, +2 chromatic lantern, although you probably need more than 22 lands what with being a control deck in three colors and playing ghost quarters and all.
I take it you've played more than two?:D
Just curious were those MTGO games in constructed two mans, tournament practice room, somewhere else?
Also, are you the same oyola that got second place in one of the MTGO Standard Premiers with the Grixis Duskmantle Seer deck? If so, Congrats!....I'm assuming the duskmantles weren't working out though?
Magmaquake and rolling temblor are not effective, they are conditional. They are dead to spirit tokens and angels which see plenty of play, and they don't do enough damage (greater than three to get rid of boros , and flint hoofs) when it counts. Compare that to supreme verdict which takes out flyers, and everything else other than undying, regen, and indestructible.
Grixis has dig, but to survive, draw + life is way better. And the later the game goes, the more the payout is. Take Forbidden Alchemy. It's a great card, but for a 10 mana investment you dig eight cards deep and hopefully find two answers. Take that 10 mana and run sphinx's revelation you dig seven cards, get seven cards, and gain seven life. And you get the versatility at casting it for 2, 3, 4, when you're still alive.
Rakdos' return is fine against control, great against midrange, but dead to aggro. Sphinx's revelation is good against everyone. So you could make a Grixis that kills Esper, but it will inherently be weaker to everyone else because it doesn't have the sweeper and the life gain which are key to survive the aggro blitz, and the midrange threat density. By the way, the best anti-sphinx card is not rakdos' return, but slaughter games.
Well no control is winning much right now because creatures are where the card advantage/quality/efficiency is at right now, so if you're not running aggro or midrange, you're not doing too good. Among control, Grixis isn't winning much because it doesn't have a sweeper, thragtusk, or sphinx's revelation. Sphinx's revelation is the bigger one that refills your hand and lets you survive to use it all at the end of your opponents turn.
Well I haven't tried grixis since page 83, when I couldn't find a way to make it work without a good early sweeper, but seems to me that 3-4 utility lands max is what you can get away with and still run 3 colors. If you have a meta with lots of blue control/midrange and you are counting on creatures to win you might want to sneak in some cavern of souls, otherwise Desolate Lighthouse is decent for filtering for answers. I never tried nephalia in Grixis, but it seems to me without a sweeper and a lifegain mechanism like sphinx's revelation, you're not often going to be going the very long game that you need to win from nephalia drownyard. I'm afraid you've come to the wrong thread for concensus though. Only consistent victories breed concensus, and there's not many Grixis control lists top 8ing anywhere competitive.