I Play mono white D and T as well as 8 rack. ( I prefer D ant T ) someone in the 8 rack forum had a great statistical breakdown and I figured I would try to do the same for my deck and post the results.
Current win % is listed in blue
Win % having played a particular card is in green
loss % having played a particular card is in red
If anyone has an idea of what to add that will be useful let me know. I plan to expand the information. (will never be as in depth as the 8 rack one)
Deck looks interesting. There are things there I would like to try, Do you have any results?
The only time I won a tournament (small 10 players) I was running Wall of resurgence (I used Darksteel Citadel as the target)
In the next few months I may try something similar, will let you know how it goes.
To chime in about the mana issue (take it with a grain of salt I am in no way an expert) It may come down to preference and your specific deck. I ran 22 lands once and had to mulligan many times and was land screwed the entire night. one reason I believe is that i run 4 Eldrazi Displacer which uses a lot of mana. If I did not have vial out I could not use the ability at all. I am up to 24 lands now and although I feel flooded often I think it is better than the alternative. I also plan on adding smuggler's copter and Thraben Inspector both of which I expect to smooth out my draws and help use some of the Mana. I just need to make room.
jendo,
thanks for the advise, I have watch a few streams that were recorded on youtube, a few from Deathandcat, and at least one form spiderspace. i am sure I just need to play more. the fact that it is a tough deck to play is part of what appeals to me. i would love to add wasteland strangler but to add black just for that seems like a waste. So I am sticking to mono white for now.
Moondemon, I originally picked up 4 spirit of the labyrinth but could never fit it in my deck, it seemed like a good idea. If you plan on using flicker shenanigans I would look at eldrazi displacer it has been great for me and you can blink the wall on you opponents turn for the draw after it is in play (along with lots of other uses, blinking a wisp is super fun), plus you already have a lot of colorless land.
its funny we both play D and T, and mono white, but only have about 20 of the same cards. unfortunately, I am not an expert on this deck. Look at what i am using a few posts up and maybe you will get some ideas. with so many different lands one weathered wayfarer may be useful, but you may already have enough 1 drops.
Hi everyone, I have been reading the forum forever and playing D and T for about 6 months. Because of my schedule I have only done 2 tournaments and only played a few other games with it. I have done some testing online. I just want to post my deck and discuss it a little. Maybe get some feedback and ideas.
First off a quick card discussion eldrazi temple is only in there right now for the eldrazi displacer I would like to add another eldrazi because having a card for just that one purpose is tough. I am looking at matter reshaper I know there is a lot of push for Thought-Knot Seer but the 4 cc turns me off to it.
darksteel citadel is there for the Wall of Resurgence the wall has been amazing for me, originally it was the blade splicer replacement, but I think I would cut the splicer for this now. The 3/3 indestructible lands made have held back large creatures. Once I got one to 9/9. The 3/3 golem would not have helped in most situations. Of course I only have 1 splicer and maybe he just does not come up enough to show his value.
Vryn wingmare When on the battlefield, especially with thalia, has been amazing, even better in multiples. This is also the first card to be sided out against creature based decks simplifying my decision making.
eldrazi displacer has been great when he has survived long enough to be used. When paired with flickerwisp or mangara of corondor it has taken over games. Dropping It on turn 2 with a temple is great.
leonine arbiter this is where I have a problem. I have never felt he helped me that much. It probably hurts me that I only have 1 path to exile and keep it in the sideboard. But even with ghost quarter it never seems to work. That’s not to say it does not slow someone up, but I have simply never noticed it. When I get him out on turn 2, or 3 with a quarter out I always need my land to much to sack it, or my opponent has more land and will be able to tap the 2. I up my vials to 3 so they only sit at 2 for a turn. I can never vial him in when someone is fetching. Any help on using him would be appreciated. Thalia always come out first.
weathered wayfarer with only 1 in he has either been removed fast, indicating he is to good to leave on the batlefield, or been amazing getting me land.
Against agro decks I start off slow and can usually turn the game around and win.
Against control decks I start off fast but can never finish them off before I have nothing on the battlefield and no cards in hand or a stalemate on the field, no cards in hand and then they win.
These are the cards I am considering working in, just not sure what to cut.
noxious revival Just an idea, as a 2 of, would be great with matter reshaper to pull whatever creature I need out of the graveyard.
grafted wargear Like the legacy deck, this would be the equipment to smash face and end the game. Would go nicely on the following cards.
Equips cheap, but can be 2 for 1’d easily.
Wow, that seems like a lot of info. With that being said, I do not believe I play this deck well yet. I catch mistakes often. Let me know if you have any advice, what am I doing wrong with the arbiter. Any ideas on the cards I would like to add to the deck.
With Path to exile being reprinted I am sure I will pick some of those up.
Thanks for the help
Gary
I play 8 rack in modern. As a rule, given the choice I have always chosen to play. the idea being that being able to disrupt an opponents plan before they even do anything was key to winning.
I read a post the other day with the following quote about 8 rack "You can and should choose to draw first" meaning pass. His idea was they have 7 cards, they play 1 land and a 1 drop now they have 5 cards, a lot of your work has been done for you. If they muligan, and the person who plays tends to muligan more easily, they are helping you out even more.
Does any one who plays 8 rack or played against it have any experience with this decision? what is the better choice? especially game 1 when you do not know what you are up against.
Hi, I play 8 rack in modern and I have always chosen to play, I consider using a turn 1 inquisition a key component of disruption, the ability to wreck your oponents first turn.
I was reading a diffrent forum about 8 rack and the quote was "you can and should chose to draw first" the reason was it puts your oponents 1 card less and the first person is more likely to muligan and thus help you.
Does any one who plays 8 rack have an opinion on this?
I do see everyone's point, and opinion, I myself do not play much vintage and legacy. I do understand that without force of will either there will be 20 more cards on the banned/redistricted list or the game would be determined by who won the coin toss. There is no situation in magic that can always be worse than another. Exile is worse than discard till I have a Misthollow Griffin in my hand, then suddenly I would rather be exiling the card. Worse in every way would trying to look at the card in the most general sense and making it so that under normal conditions (most of the time) it would be worse. But at least usable Foil does the same thing but its draw back is so bad it is next to unusable (until I have ensnaring bridge out, See I made foil better than Force of will)
I will change my statement to "Generally speaking worse but not necessarily in every way, and in no way do I mean all the time, and definitely not in every circumstance. We will call it worse in 90% of the time in which it is intended to be used. To be more specific I would like you to turn to page 39 article 4 line 7 of your not always strictly worse than force of will booklet...."
Thank you for the discussion input and ideas, Does anyone know why Force has not been reprinted?
Since Islands are not blue and discarding can have rather different consequences from exiling, your "worse in every way" force of will design is dropping some clues that you might not have the background for an informed opinion on the issue.
so lets discuss I agree with you Exile is worse than discard so lets make that change. I disagree with your opinion that in and opinion section of a forum you think my opinion should not matter.
Foil exists, so there already is an alternative free hard counter.
Yes there is and you are correct, I actually have 4 of them and use them in casual decks, however using it is like giving your opponent an ancestral recall. Starting a game with 4 cards in hand pretty much means you are going to lose.
I realize Wizards could reprint it, I do not think they will. Why do you think they have not reprinted it in... what about 15 years? I am guessing because it would upset the people who have 20 of them, but its just my opinion, I do not know why they have not, I do not work for them. My thought is that if you are not reprinting print something comparable.
Good point about rather tossing and island over an ancestral, tinker, or jace I would say to make that change as well.
I have been thinking a lot about force of will
I understand the arguments for not reprinting it, I of course would love it to be reprinted, I do not have any, and the $100 price tag is to high for me. On the other hand there are lots of people who have purchased them and their collection should not be reduced in price. However, this card is a staple and is required to balance power. If force of will did not exist legacy and vintage would be a who could combo first game.
So lets go with the argument that it will not be reprinted. How about something similar, but worse. I see a 6 casting cost counter spell with an alternate cost. Lets say discard a basic island and pay 3 life. This makes it worse in every way. Would make modern less combo and give a bunch of players a card that they would need to break into vintage/legacy. It may hurt force of will's price a little but it would still be the better card.
Any thoughts about this? What recommendations would you make?
I Play mono white D and T as well as 8 rack. ( I prefer D ant T ) someone in the 8 rack forum had a great statistical breakdown and I figured I would try to do the same for my deck and post the results.
link to 8 rack statistics here
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XOUxbFGgVUzumbPd7H8BUHZk7IdXoClokOrn8B6mCPM/edit#gid=670506468
I am not going to into as much depth as the 8 rack sheet goes but here is what i have started .
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1BT5gyP1bOKMg2GstJC-BcObf5dZH3it7NH8jF2e2aOg/edit?usp=sharing
Current win % is listed in blue
Win % having played a particular card is in green
loss % having played a particular card is in red
If anyone has an idea of what to add that will be useful let me know. I plan to expand the information. (will never be as in depth as the 8 rack one)
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Stonecloaker
3 Blade Splicer
1 Mangara of Corondor
4 Aether Vial
2 Smuggler's Copter
Instants
4 Path to Exile
Land
11 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Shefet Dunes
4 Eldrazi Temple
I will update the spreadsheet periodically and repost it. (I do not play often so it will be slow)
Hope it provides useful information.
if anyone wants it here is the score sheet I use.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XSyg6IYJ9wPfmxmB5NYCeQmMWJ7oZ37DRA7HnOL2s0Y/edit?usp=sharing.
Gary
Deck looks interesting. There are things there I would like to try, Do you have any results?
The only time I won a tournament (small 10 players) I was running Wall of resurgence (I used Darksteel Citadel as the target)
In the next few months I may try something similar, will let you know how it goes.
To chime in about the mana issue (take it with a grain of salt I am in no way an expert) It may come down to preference and your specific deck. I ran 22 lands once and had to mulligan many times and was land screwed the entire night. one reason I believe is that i run 4 Eldrazi Displacer which uses a lot of mana. If I did not have vial out I could not use the ability at all. I am up to 24 lands now and although I feel flooded often I think it is better than the alternative. I also plan on adding smuggler's copter and Thraben Inspector both of which I expect to smooth out my draws and help use some of the Mana. I just need to make room.
Gary
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/gideonofthetrials.html
Gary
thanks for the advise, I have watch a few streams that were recorded on youtube, a few from Deathandcat, and at least one form spiderspace. i am sure I just need to play more. the fact that it is a tough deck to play is part of what appeals to me. i would love to add wasteland strangler but to add black just for that seems like a waste. So I am sticking to mono white for now.
Moondemon, I originally picked up 4 spirit of the labyrinth but could never fit it in my deck, it seemed like a good idea. If you plan on using flicker shenanigans I would look at eldrazi displacer it has been great for me and you can blink the wall on you opponents turn for the draw after it is in play (along with lots of other uses, blinking a wisp is super fun), plus you already have a lot of colorless land.
its funny we both play D and T, and mono white, but only have about 20 of the same cards. unfortunately, I am not an expert on this deck. Look at what i am using a few posts up and maybe you will get some ideas. with so many different lands one weathered wayfarer may be useful, but you may already have enough 1 drops.
Good luck
Gary
13 plains
4 eldrazi temples
2 darksteel citadel
4 ghost quarter
Creatures (32)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 flickerwisp
4 eldrazi displacer
4 vryn wingmare
4 mangara of corandor
1 wall of omens
1 weathered wayfarer
1 blade splicer
1 phyrexian revoker
4 fiend hunter
4 Aether Vial
1 Relic of Progenitus
First off a quick card discussion
eldrazi temple is only in there right now for the eldrazi displacer I would like to add another eldrazi because having a card for just that one purpose is tough. I am looking at matter reshaper I know there is a lot of push for Thought-Knot Seer but the 4 cc turns me off to it.
darksteel citadel is there for the Wall of Resurgence the wall has been amazing for me, originally it was the blade splicer replacement, but I think I would cut the splicer for this now. The 3/3 indestructible lands made have held back large creatures. Once I got one to 9/9. The 3/3 golem would not have helped in most situations. Of course I only have 1 splicer and maybe he just does not come up enough to show his value.
Vryn wingmare When on the battlefield, especially with thalia, has been amazing, even better in multiples. This is also the first card to be sided out against creature based decks simplifying my decision making.
eldrazi displacer has been great when he has survived long enough to be used. When paired with flickerwisp or mangara of corondor it has taken over games. Dropping It on turn 2 with a temple is great.
leonine arbiter this is where I have a problem. I have never felt he helped me that much. It probably hurts me that I only have 1 path to exile and keep it in the sideboard. But even with ghost quarter it never seems to work. That’s not to say it does not slow someone up, but I have simply never noticed it. When I get him out on turn 2, or 3 with a quarter out I always need my land to much to sack it, or my opponent has more land and will be able to tap the 2. I up my vials to 3 so they only sit at 2 for a turn. I can never vial him in when someone is fetching. Any help on using him would be appreciated. Thalia always come out first.
weathered wayfarer with only 1 in he has either been removed fast, indicating he is to good to leave on the batlefield, or been amazing getting me land.
Against agro decks I start off slow and can usually turn the game around and win.
Against control decks I start off fast but can never finish them off before I have nothing on the battlefield and no cards in hand or a stalemate on the field, no cards in hand and then they win.
These are the cards I am considering working in, just not sure what to cut.
matter reshaper explained above to be used with eldrazi temple
noxious revival Just an idea, as a 2 of, would be great with matter reshaper to pull whatever creature I need out of the graveyard.
grafted wargear Like the legacy deck, this would be the equipment to smash face and end the game. Would go nicely on the following cards.
Equips cheap, but can be 2 for 1’d easily.
solemn recruit
mirran crusader
serra avenger
Wow, that seems like a lot of info. With that being said, I do not believe I play this deck well yet. I catch mistakes often. Let me know if you have any advice, what am I doing wrong with the arbiter. Any ideas on the cards I would like to add to the deck.
With Path to exile being reprinted I am sure I will pick some of those up.
Thanks for the help
Gary
I play 8 rack in modern. As a rule, given the choice I have always chosen to play. the idea being that being able to disrupt an opponents plan before they even do anything was key to winning.
I read a post the other day with the following quote about 8 rack "You can and should choose to draw first" meaning pass. His idea was they have 7 cards, they play 1 land and a 1 drop now they have 5 cards, a lot of your work has been done for you. If they muligan, and the person who plays tends to muligan more easily, they are helping you out even more.
Does any one who plays 8 rack or played against it have any experience with this decision? what is the better choice? especially game 1 when you do not know what you are up against.
thanks for your input,
Gary
I was reading a diffrent forum about 8 rack and the quote was "you can and should chose to draw first" the reason was it puts your oponents 1 card less and the first person is more likely to muligan and thus help you.
Does any one who plays 8 rack have an opinion on this?
Shout out and give a 8 racer some help
Thanks,
Gary
I will change my statement to "Generally speaking worse but not necessarily in every way, and in no way do I mean all the time, and definitely not in every circumstance. We will call it worse in 90% of the time in which it is intended to be used. To be more specific I would like you to turn to page 39 article 4 line 7 of your not always strictly worse than force of will booklet...."
Thank you for the discussion input and ideas, Does anyone know why Force has not been reprinted?
so lets discuss I agree with you Exile is worse than discard so lets make that change. I disagree with your opinion that in and opinion section of a forum you think my opinion should not matter.
Foil exists, so there already is an alternative free hard counter.
Yes there is and you are correct, I actually have 4 of them and use them in casual decks, however using it is like giving your opponent an ancestral recall. Starting a game with 4 cards in hand pretty much means you are going to lose.
I realize Wizards could reprint it, I do not think they will. Why do you think they have not reprinted it in... what about 15 years? I am guessing because it would upset the people who have 20 of them, but its just my opinion, I do not know why they have not, I do not work for them. My thought is that if you are not reprinting print something comparable.
Good point about rather tossing and island over an ancestral, tinker, or jace I would say to make that change as well.
I understand the arguments for not reprinting it, I of course would love it to be reprinted, I do not have any, and the $100 price tag is to high for me. On the other hand there are lots of people who have purchased them and their collection should not be reduced in price. However, this card is a staple and is required to balance power. If force of will did not exist legacy and vintage would be a who could combo first game.
So lets go with the argument that it will not be reprinted. How about something similar, but worse. I see a 6 casting cost counter spell with an alternate cost. Lets say discard a basic island and pay 3 life. This makes it worse in every way. Would make modern less combo and give a bunch of players a card that they would need to break into vintage/legacy. It may hurt force of will's price a little but it would still be the better card.
Any thoughts about this? What recommendations would you make?
Zane
BTW I just found this forum and it is great, I think i need lots of help and you guys are the best. thanks for the help
nother question,
can I tap it the moment after he untaps it, or can he as a fast effect pay for it and use it before it becomes tapped?
If you have the last post in a thread and need to add to it, please use the edit button instead of double posting.--Binary
Does this prevent the rats?
Can he tap the other 3 mana and the foundry to cast the rats before my Pestermite (top of the stack)?
What happens to the 3 mana he already tapped, is it floating or gone like a canceled spell?
I am clueless on a lot of rules but this one stumped us both. Thanks for your input.
Gary