I have been away from Magic for a while but want to get back into my elf deck.
I was curious if the buried alive / vengvine SB was still considered a good choice. I was debating trying to build my deck up for the proper black splash mana base.
You can't look at these two cards and figure out which is better without any other context. What is the deck that's running these cards look like? What is that deck's strategy? What does the deck want to pick out when it is using this spell?
Figure out what your deck wants to take away from your opponent and then choose accordingly.
I just cannot agree with this statement. Original Elspeth, Knight Errant comes in at 4cc, generates tokens to defend herself and then turns the tokens into serra angels for a turn. Her ultimate is scary and this forces the enemy to deal with her. Elspeth Tirel Is basically just a token generator. And if you are making tokens, you cant ult; the card makes no sense. The ONLY Planeswalker that I think is on the same level with the good Elspeth is Ajani Vengeant.
I am having a hard time seeing how Goldmane can get slots over elspeth or gideon. Goldmane's plus ability is good but underwhelming for a 4 mana walker. His minus ability doesn't really do a whole lot for this deck. His ultimate is also very lacking. Removal is everywhere and I don't see it being a really strong ultimate. Elspeth protects herself to a much stronger ultimate and can even build while being offensive. Gideon protects himself due to his huge amount of counters and his ability to kill and remove threats. He has no ultimate but he beats in for 6 which gets the job done.
I just have a hard time seeing how Goldmane gets a slot when we have these other two options.
It has been looked at in the landstill thread but what do you guys think of trying to implement talisman of progress as a mana source/acceleration piece?
With all the cantrips I can see dipping the mana base to 22 and adding in a few talismans. Maybe a wacky idea but UW control is being re-engineered atm so why not think outside the box.
1. I am not saying that your deck is trash or that you are stupid, nor was I implying that. So lets keep things calm and objective.
2. When you say Emeria > Sheets you are only speaking for your particular deck that runs a decent amount of creatures. And guess what? I agree. If you run those creatures by all means run Emeria.
3. This thread is for mono white control builds. I would argue that my build is a lot closer to the purist definition of Mono White Control than any deck with 20 or so creatures, and I think safe to say this thread is where my deck belongs.
So once we clear all of that ad hominem nonsense we can have a debate on which is better, your creature soft lock or my artifact + enchantment locks. I therefore submit the following arguments for my case:
a. My scepter lock comes online as early as turn 2 and has to potential to stop most decks then and there. Your opponent must deal with it or scoop.
b. If the scepter lock is played early it is an excellent stall. Late game it becomes a hard lock. The spells in the scepter package are never useless.
c. Enchantments are the most difficult permanent to deal with, and Emeria doesn't touch them.
d. Creatures are the easiest permanent to deal with and require too many deck slots to make Emeria a reliable soft lock.
e. Best case scenario you get an 8 land soft lock, and statistically you will have duplicate Emerias most often making it at least a 9 land lock on average...I lock up the game way before I hit 8-9 lands.
**NOTE** I respect you and your deckbuilding skill. PLEASE lets keep this debate objective and leave out the rage / flames.
Ok I'll admit I raged on you too much. I walked into the forums mad and posted accordingly. Sorry about that.
Now to talk more about the two builds we are looking at:
I have seen sceptor builds before in a lot of legacy landstill lists and while its powerful I feel it is inconsistent. Running the sceptor combos you run do create virtual hard locks on turn 2-3 but at the same time I feel that running this set of cards creates inconsistency. Your two sceptor targets are fairly weak on their own. Chant will push you to later in the game but is essentially card disadvantage. The charm thing also seems rather weak by itself too. You take the risk of having a lonely sceptor in hand or of running sub-optimal cards but you run the reward of sticking a hard lock. I personally prefer running a more fluid deck that does not rely on a two card combo.
Here is a creature rundown:
Martyr
-Without emeria it is a block and +9-12 health on average. A large boost that helps to keep your health up against the heavy aggro meta so that larger spells can be played.
-With emeria online this card single handedly beats aggro decks and causes an impossible situation for them to come back.
Wall of omens
-Without emeria it acts as a cheap blocker that blocks many critters without death. This helps to achieve late game stability
-With emeria it is a disposable blocker that creates large amounts of CA in the form of always having a blocker and drawing a card
Sad Robot
-Without emeria its a mana ramp (ramps to emeria as well as other big mana dumps aka sun titan, staff, PWs) and then acts as a blocker that nets you a card. Mana acceleration + block + card is a lot for 4 mana and helps get you to that late game.
-With emeria this guy is dirty acceleration and blocking and CA.
Having blockers that create CA get us to late game where this deck is extremely strong. Martyr is card disadvantage but makes the "lets kill 20 hp aggro decks" need to kill 30+ hp.
Strong blockers with prisons force your opponent to overextend into a more beneficial ***. And wrathing your critters doesn't really hurt since you are going to find an emeria very often since you are shooting for late game. I have wrathed without the enemy having creatures just to draw cards off multiple robots and get them reacuring with emeria.
My strategy is to shoot for late game and then drop bombs. Elspeth and gid are massive problems that do dirty things when left alone. Staff of dominance literally puts you into control when you have the mana to sink into it. Draw cards, gain life, tap critters. It is just so good. And sacred mesa is absolutely insane late game with mana for obvious reasons.
Our difference in builds probably plays into our assessment of risk. I just personally see sceptor builds as builds that require your two pieces or you have bad cards in your hand. I feel that a heavy creature build is abnormal for control decks but this deck is not your normal control deck. This is an anti-meta deck that is being build to hose the Zoo, burn, rdw, Ima smash my face against you til you die decks". Early blockers that have build in advantages are very strong for this. Being able to play them again late game for free is just unfair.
It is true that enchantments are harder to get rid of but pridemage is running around a lot so you do 2 for 1 yourself against zoo in many cases. I personally don't care if my creatures get answered. Martyr cant be answered if you are smart. A bolt or terminate etc on a robot or a blocking omen isnt a bad thing. Robot still ramped you and got you another card. Omen still got you that other card when you cast him, and they either used burn on them instead of you, or removed your blocker instead of your late game titan or swinging gideon.
When looking at the two builds I just see an emeria build being more consistent and having more room for a skilled pilot to take it further. I feel a sceptor build is using the combo as a crutch that requires multiple pieces in a deck that has nearly no deck manipulation. I don't mean this as a bash but that is my assessment on the two builds.
On a side note have you ever though of running some academy ruins to get sceptors back? Emeria vs sheets is essentially a question we cannot resolve. It is not a question of card choice but deck strategy choice. I do think for you though thinking about sheets vs ruins might be a better question.
I am sorry all your overpowered control cards have been nuetered to make the format somewhat fair.(control isnt dominating like other eternal formats)
So by your definition, the format is fair if control isn't good enough to place? This doesn't sound like an avid aggro player that complains about counterspells and removal.
I'm not a fan of modern's meta game from a balanced point of view, but I love it from a player's point of view. Black is great for control but I'd argue white is much better in this meta. MWC is so strong right now, but people are too set on blue based decks to see it.
Exactly. You devote 12 deck slots for your turn 8 (or later) soft lock with Emeria.
I find that version of the deck to be very fragile and slow.
Instead i prefer to use my scepter package to soft lock or maybe even win the game outright on turn 2. Its much more difficult to get rid of an artifact than creatures, and its even harder to get rid of an enchantment. Therefore: I drop the critters from the deck and add scepter package + enchantment threats that Sun Titan can bring back when i hit 6 lands.
I am dedicating 12 slots for a turn 8 play? Was there any thought put into that? Wall of omens draws you a card and blocks a lot of critters without dying. Sad Robot ramps you, chump blocks, and then draws you a card. Martyr is a massive help in the RDW, zoo, affinity, aggro matchups. All these creatures stall, create CA and get us to late game. To make a blanket statement like creatures shouldn't be in a control deck is just narrow minded and wrong.
If you are a sceptor/chant person then thats fine. There are people that love that combo and will not be swayed. But don't walk in and bash creatures in a deck that is based around these creatures and an emeria engine.
Just so we do not lose touch with the original argument:
Emeria > Sheets
Sheets without top is cute and inconsistent at its best. This deck has massive synergy with creatures/emeria/sun titan. It is how the deck was built to operate. If your argument is that creatures aren't worth it and your gonna pass on taking advantage of emeria, then your not really building a deck that should be posted in this thread. I'm sure there's a sceptor.deck thread somewhere.
Agreed. I find Scrying Sheets much better than the Emeria recursion package primarily because Emeria can only target creatures, which means of course you need creatures. Creatures in a control deck weigh it down. See my list above if you are looking for a true control deck in every sense of the word.
I have to disagree with this. I have not tested sheets, but emeria is an absolute bomb in this deck. It is what gives this deck its outstanding inevitability. The basic creatures the deck is going to get back are martyr, sad robot, and wall of omens. Endless chump blockers that provide massive life gains or card advantage is huge.
I walk into games with the mindset that I need to race and survive to my 8th land drop. Once you get an emeria engine going this deck just wins.
I dont think snapcaster is gonna be that heavily played to the point where we have problems with a lot of decks. Its a good card but I just dont think already made decks are gonna just toss him in.
I think replacing Gideon with wurm isnt the best idea. Gideon is extremely versatile. He is multiple fogs, removal, and a finisher that lives through wrath. Plus he costs one less and is white for martyr.
Do you guys use Karn as repeated removal or do you actually try to make use of his ult. Because if you get rid of problem creatures with Karn they come back under the opponents control if you restart the game, so thats bad. So you either set him up to start new game with big advantage or use him as a removal stick?
I have been away from Magic for a while but want to get back into my elf deck.
I was curious if the buried alive / vengvine SB was still considered a good choice. I was debating trying to build my deck up for the proper black splash mana base.
Figure out what your deck wants to take away from your opponent and then choose accordingly.
Elspeth 2.0 doesn't kill tokens when she ults.
I am having a hard time seeing how Goldmane can get slots over elspeth or gideon. Goldmane's plus ability is good but underwhelming for a 4 mana walker. His minus ability doesn't really do a whole lot for this deck. His ultimate is also very lacking. Removal is everywhere and I don't see it being a really strong ultimate. Elspeth protects herself to a much stronger ultimate and can even build while being offensive. Gideon protects himself due to his huge amount of counters and his ability to kill and remove threats. He has no ultimate but he beats in for 6 which gets the job done.
I just have a hard time seeing how Goldmane gets a slot when we have these other two options.
With all the cantrips I can see dipping the mana base to 22 and adding in a few talismans. Maybe a wacky idea but UW control is being re-engineered atm so why not think outside the box.
Ok I'll admit I raged on you too much. I walked into the forums mad and posted accordingly. Sorry about that.
Now to talk more about the two builds we are looking at:
I have seen sceptor builds before in a lot of legacy landstill lists and while its powerful I feel it is inconsistent. Running the sceptor combos you run do create virtual hard locks on turn 2-3 but at the same time I feel that running this set of cards creates inconsistency. Your two sceptor targets are fairly weak on their own. Chant will push you to later in the game but is essentially card disadvantage. The charm thing also seems rather weak by itself too. You take the risk of having a lonely sceptor in hand or of running sub-optimal cards but you run the reward of sticking a hard lock. I personally prefer running a more fluid deck that does not rely on a two card combo.
Here is a creature rundown:
Martyr
-Without emeria it is a block and +9-12 health on average. A large boost that helps to keep your health up against the heavy aggro meta so that larger spells can be played.
-With emeria online this card single handedly beats aggro decks and causes an impossible situation for them to come back.
Wall of omens
-Without emeria it acts as a cheap blocker that blocks many critters without death. This helps to achieve late game stability
-With emeria it is a disposable blocker that creates large amounts of CA in the form of always having a blocker and drawing a card
Sad Robot
-Without emeria its a mana ramp (ramps to emeria as well as other big mana dumps aka sun titan, staff, PWs) and then acts as a blocker that nets you a card. Mana acceleration + block + card is a lot for 4 mana and helps get you to that late game.
-With emeria this guy is dirty acceleration and blocking and CA.
Having blockers that create CA get us to late game where this deck is extremely strong. Martyr is card disadvantage but makes the "lets kill 20 hp aggro decks" need to kill 30+ hp.
Strong blockers with prisons force your opponent to overextend into a more beneficial ***. And wrathing your critters doesn't really hurt since you are going to find an emeria very often since you are shooting for late game. I have wrathed without the enemy having creatures just to draw cards off multiple robots and get them reacuring with emeria.
My strategy is to shoot for late game and then drop bombs. Elspeth and gid are massive problems that do dirty things when left alone. Staff of dominance literally puts you into control when you have the mana to sink into it. Draw cards, gain life, tap critters. It is just so good. And sacred mesa is absolutely insane late game with mana for obvious reasons.
Our difference in builds probably plays into our assessment of risk. I just personally see sceptor builds as builds that require your two pieces or you have bad cards in your hand. I feel that a heavy creature build is abnormal for control decks but this deck is not your normal control deck. This is an anti-meta deck that is being build to hose the Zoo, burn, rdw, Ima smash my face against you til you die decks". Early blockers that have build in advantages are very strong for this. Being able to play them again late game for free is just unfair.
It is true that enchantments are harder to get rid of but pridemage is running around a lot so you do 2 for 1 yourself against zoo in many cases. I personally don't care if my creatures get answered. Martyr cant be answered if you are smart. A bolt or terminate etc on a robot or a blocking omen isnt a bad thing. Robot still ramped you and got you another card. Omen still got you that other card when you cast him, and they either used burn on them instead of you, or removed your blocker instead of your late game titan or swinging gideon.
When looking at the two builds I just see an emeria build being more consistent and having more room for a skilled pilot to take it further. I feel a sceptor build is using the combo as a crutch that requires multiple pieces in a deck that has nearly no deck manipulation. I don't mean this as a bash but that is my assessment on the two builds.
On a side note have you ever though of running some academy ruins to get sceptors back? Emeria vs sheets is essentially a question we cannot resolve. It is not a question of card choice but deck strategy choice. I do think for you though thinking about sheets vs ruins might be a better question.
So by your definition, the format is fair if control isn't good enough to place? This doesn't sound like an avid aggro player that complains about counterspells and removal.
I'm not a fan of modern's meta game from a balanced point of view, but I love it from a player's point of view. Black is great for control but I'd argue white is much better in this meta. MWC is so strong right now, but people are too set on blue based decks to see it.
I am dedicating 12 slots for a turn 8 play? Was there any thought put into that? Wall of omens draws you a card and blocks a lot of critters without dying. Sad Robot ramps you, chump blocks, and then draws you a card. Martyr is a massive help in the RDW, zoo, affinity, aggro matchups. All these creatures stall, create CA and get us to late game. To make a blanket statement like creatures shouldn't be in a control deck is just narrow minded and wrong.
If you are a sceptor/chant person then thats fine. There are people that love that combo and will not be swayed. But don't walk in and bash creatures in a deck that is based around these creatures and an emeria engine.
Just so we do not lose touch with the original argument:
Emeria > Sheets
Sheets without top is cute and inconsistent at its best. This deck has massive synergy with creatures/emeria/sun titan. It is how the deck was built to operate. If your argument is that creatures aren't worth it and your gonna pass on taking advantage of emeria, then your not really building a deck that should be posted in this thread. I'm sure there's a sceptor.deck thread somewhere.
I have to disagree with this. I have not tested sheets, but emeria is an absolute bomb in this deck. It is what gives this deck its outstanding inevitability. The basic creatures the deck is going to get back are martyr, sad robot, and wall of omens. Endless chump blockers that provide massive life gains or card advantage is huge.
I walk into games with the mindset that I need to race and survive to my 8th land drop. Once you get an emeria engine going this deck just wins.
Oh wow...I might try him now...He seems much better than gideon now that I know this.