I don't get this guy's arguments at all. He's saying Kiora is not seeing play because none of the decks in standard can fit her in. No way, she can easily be splashed for in UW with the g/u and g/w scrylands. If anything she is an excellent reason to run all twelve. It's all upside. Not sure why she isn't seeing more play. Also, saying that the majority of control players won't look to Jace is just too broad of an assumption. UW control is losing most of its cards post-rotation so who knows what control will look like. With Sphinx's Revelation gone, Jace might be the only late game big card draw.
No joke, without any testing I think that's a fair comparison. Neither are great against hyper aggro, but both should be excellent against midrange and control. Both ultimates win the game. Hard to compare the other abilities, they each have pros and cons. Power level overall seems about even. I will test and see if this proves true. Not much more I can say about Jace for now.
You see my problem with this is revealing one of two GOOD spells. I won't comment on his viability since that is unproved at this point in time but first impressions are anything but positive. Comparatively I'd rate him up there with Kiora but she isn't seeing any meaningful play either so take from that what you may.
This is a problem? I can see some tough choices, like finding a verdict and an Elspeth on top, but I would build the deck with multiples of each so taking the better spell at that moment won't mean never seeing the other one again. I can agree with comparing him to Kiora, sounds about right without any testing.
You realize this statement could be made about every planeswalker right? With very few exceptions, PW's ultimates will win games. Then again you don't even need to remove it. Just pinging it would keep this one under control pretty well with a decent board state.
Sure, I just think that players are misunderstanding the value of the +1. You need to realize that just because it doesn't put a card into your hand that doesn't mean it isn't good. Every time Jace bins an unneeded land and gets a spell it's almost as good as drawing an extra card. Maybe you can keep his ultimate in check, but if you want to let me +1 turn after turn I'm totally fine with that.
I acknowledge that I could be wrong, but I will test this Jace and find out. I think he's great.
Well I can see that this Jace is going to be bad against something like RDW, unless you've stabilized the board and can use the +1 to find what you need to stay ahead. Jace won't get you to that point. However, against midrange and control you will have time to take advantage of the card selection. Like say once you have enough lands, binning extras is almost as good as drawing extra cards. It's like Courser of Kruphix – you're not actually drawing extra cards or getting extra land drops but it's still a form of card advantage.
Hard to say when it's better to hold up counter mana, just depends on the situation. Who knows, maybe this Jace doesn't even belong in a control deck. Maybe tempo or midrange? I'm going to at least test Jace before I make any real judgment. My whole point is he shouldn't be dismissed outright.
I understand card advantage. What I don't understand is calling this card inherent disadvantage. Not a lot of creatures replace themselves so should I stop playing them? Not a lot of removal or counter spells replace themselves either.
Your opponent might spend a card and/or a turn dealing with him. That's parity. Card quality counts for something too. You are still gaining an advantage.
Valid points, I didn't think of the cards I would have to shuffle back. Still though, ending up with seven cards and my opponent zero is unbeatable. Maybe you can empty your hand while I build up to it, but why is Jace still getting to 8 loyalty? Maybe I dealt with your threats or they didn't matter? What if you're a control deck and you're holding counters?
I don't get the comment about Jace being inherent card disadvantage. Maybe I don't get this concept. The only card it costs you is Jace itself, and from that point on you get some card quality and maybe some tempo, and maybe an ultimate. What am I missing?
Besides, the ultimate will often not even be very good. If you are a control deck you very likely have a few cards in hand anyway, and it's likely that the opponent only has one or two in hand as well. And they can see the ultimate coming, so they can play any really important cards before he goes off. So the ultimate is: You draw a couple cards, your opponent discards a couple bad cards. Whooo.....Scary.:)
Haha, really. It's not a couple of cards, it's seven. Not only seven new cards, but I will have all of my mana available since I cast him a few turns ago. Not only that, but you will have nothing in your hand. You aren't beating that. Scary indeed.
I'll probably just swing at it every once in a while or remove it after a few turns to keep it off the ult, but I'm absolutely going to internally cheer 99% of the time they play it and bounce something and I'll definitely let it sit around and mess with their draws all game while enjoying my +1 CA.
Perfect, you swing at it once in a while, I'll save some life and get my card quality every turn. He's doing his job.
Wow, so much outright dismissal. I guarantee that if your opponent puts this Jace into play you will not just ignore it and say "oh, bad Jace? I won't bother removing it" unless you're playing something like RDW and you're about to win anyway. If you're on any kind of midrange or control you will do everything you can to get rid of it. That ultimate comes quick and you can't beat it. You only need to look at Thassa to see how powerful scrying every turn is. Not sure about the -3, I think it will be good against non-weenie and non-haste creatures. Being able to bounce your own stuff seems good.
As I stated in a previous post, I wouldn't mind a temporary banning of Snapcaster Mage so that he could come back in October if it's really necessary.
Ponder getting banned wouldn't bother me too much, but I really don't think any bannings are needed. If they decide to ban anything blue I really hope they take Primeval Titan down with it/them. I've been sick of all of the titans since last year before M12.
There might be a lot of delver decks around but it isn't nearly as oppressive or boring as Caw-Blade. Even delver mirrors are interesting -- there's tons of back-and-forth and exciting turnarounds between two evenly matched players.
Well, they banned Jace and Stoneforge three months before they rotated out of standard.
It would be unprecedented, but maybe this is the correct solution. Just because they've never done it before doesn't make it a reason not to do it now.
Would a temporary banning of Snapcaster Mage work?
Consider that many of the cards that are considered problematic will be leaving in October -- Ponder and Mana Leak being the main ones, and also Gitaxian Probe and Vapor Snag (to a lesser extent, but they are important).
Snapcaster is not a problem in block so it's reasonable to think he won't be a problem in October.
If he must be banned now, I say make it temporary and bring him back in October. As an owner of four copies and a delver player, this will bother me much less than just banning him for good.
Actually I think it's subtly good. Even if you can't always counter a spell, forcing the extra mana and a discard can still throw off your opponent's plans.
That said, I'd still be inclined to play the full set of Mana Leaks before playing this.
I prefer Disperse and Vapor Snag over Silent Departure because Disperse hits planeswalkers and every other kind of non-land permanent and Vapor Snag is an instant and it deals a point of damage.
Dunno about Shock -- Ponder might be better.
I like Manic Vandal in the 'board, and if Tempered Steel ends up being the best aggro deck then Steel Sabotage will be another awesome card there.
In your build, I think Frost Breath is better in the 'board and while I think that Traft is great in a deck like this, I believe the mana will be too inconsistent.
I acknowledge that I could be wrong, but I will test this Jace and find out. I think he's great.
Hard to say when it's better to hold up counter mana, just depends on the situation. Who knows, maybe this Jace doesn't even belong in a control deck. Maybe tempo or midrange? I'm going to at least test Jace before I make any real judgment. My whole point is he shouldn't be dismissed outright.
Your opponent might spend a card and/or a turn dealing with him. That's parity. Card quality counts for something too. You are still gaining an advantage.
I don't get the comment about Jace being inherent card disadvantage. Maybe I don't get this concept. The only card it costs you is Jace itself, and from that point on you get some card quality and maybe some tempo, and maybe an ultimate. What am I missing?
Perfect, you swing at it once in a while, I'll save some life and get my card quality every turn. He's doing his job.
Ponder getting banned wouldn't bother me too much, but I really don't think any bannings are needed. If they decide to ban anything blue I really hope they take Primeval Titan down with it/them. I've been sick of all of the titans since last year before M12.
There might be a lot of delver decks around but it isn't nearly as oppressive or boring as Caw-Blade. Even delver mirrors are interesting -- there's tons of back-and-forth and exciting turnarounds between two evenly matched players.
It would be unprecedented, but maybe this is the correct solution. Just because they've never done it before doesn't make it a reason not to do it now.
Consider that many of the cards that are considered problematic will be leaving in October -- Ponder and Mana Leak being the main ones, and also Gitaxian Probe and Vapor Snag (to a lesser extent, but they are important).
Snapcaster is not a problem in block so it's reasonable to think he won't be a problem in October.
If he must be banned now, I say make it temporary and bring him back in October. As an owner of four copies and a delver player, this will bother me much less than just banning him for good.
That said, I'd still be inclined to play the full set of Mana Leaks before playing this.
4 Neurok Commando
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormblood Berserker
4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Disperse
4 Mana Leak
2 Vapor Snag
4 Arc Trail
4 Incinerate
4 Shock
4 Sulfur Falls
9 Island
9 Mountain
I prefer Disperse and Vapor Snag over Silent Departure because Disperse hits planeswalkers and every other kind of non-land permanent and Vapor Snag is an instant and it deals a point of damage.
Dunno about Shock -- Ponder might be better.
I like Manic Vandal in the 'board, and if Tempered Steel ends up being the best aggro deck then Steel Sabotage will be another awesome card there.
In your build, I think Frost Breath is better in the 'board and while I think that Traft is great in a deck like this, I believe the mana will be too inconsistent.
I would suggest Rampant Growth in place of Mutagenic Growth. It helps get you to five mana to play/equip a sword and helps the Dungrove Elder.
I would definitely play four Garruk Relentless.
You probably have too many mana creatures, I'd cut two elves.
Thought about trying Gladecover Scout?
EDIT: I would include Dismember main, it's too good.