MTG Salvation

Quote from nwrobinson

a pretty good overall list. a few thing i would suggest

1. not sure 4 izzet charms is where this deck wants to be, i would run at least one more azorius charm, and i think this deck could really use a few divination's to really keep the card advantage machine going

2. ratchet bomb is a pretty weak card, especially with 4 dspheres in there already. i can kill multiple thing once in a blue moon, but unless tokens become a larger problem i would keep it sideboard. i personally am i fan of elixir of immortality/ revelation recursion so i would run and elixir over it.

3. 6 win conditions seems excessively high. personally i would run 1 of each and probably sideboard 1 out dependent on matchup, i like the real grindy control decks. if you want more big presence maybe a few stormbreaths

4. i know it scrys, but r/w are too very small colors compared to blue so i just cant justify a full playset of temple over izzet or azorius guildgates/ i run 2 temples

5. yes last breath gets mutavault, but i really think anger of the gods is a stronger card in this matchup

6. turn // burn is situational enough that i wouldnt mainboard it, i would put a few warleaders helix's in the MB instead.

Hey. Thanks for the feedback. Allow me to throw a few rebuttal points to get a conversation going:

1. I personally haven't had an issue with 4 izzets. While it's not amazing in every matchup, it has a good use in every single one and it's a good way to survive early or dig late. I may drop to 3 but I can't see myself going lower then that. I probably will add a third azorius if I do so.

2. I agree that ratchet has been less than ideal. It'll probably leave the list altogether. For my version of control that uses more wincons, elixir isn't worth it. Not sure what I'll use the slot for, maybe a divination.

3. Note that only in control mirror do I board into 6wincons, where that is definitely worth it. Having 2 each of them allows fine tuning powerful wincons for each matchup (usually dropping elspeth in its bad matchups instead of being forced to use it.

Gtg, I'll address the rest later . Ty

Here's my current iteration of UWR control. Would love some feedback, grooming it for my PTQ on the 18th. It's angled to fight Mono-Blue and Mono-Black as those are the 2 main decks in the meta atm, but it also can fight esper or boros well. Jund is....iffy.



SB Plan:

Vs Mono-Blue Devotion:
+1 AEtherling
+1 Assemble the Legion
+3 Chained to the Rocks
+4 Gainsay
+3 Last Breath
-2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
-2 Counterflux
-4 Izzet Charm
-1 Sphinx's Revelation
-1 Ratchet Bomb
-2 Turn // Burn

Vs Mono-Black Devotion:
+1 AEtherling
+1 Assemble the Legion
+2 Counterflux
+3 Chained to the Rocks
+1 Pithing Needle
-2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
-4 Izzet Charm
-2 Mizzium Mortars

Vs Esper Control:
+1 AEtherling
+1 Assemble the Legion
+2 Counterflux
+4 Gainsay
+1 Pithing Needle
-1 Essence Scatter
-2 Mizzium Mortars
-1 Ratchet Bomb
-3 Supreme Verdict
-2 Turn // Burn

Vs Collosal Gruul:
+2 Counterflux
+3 Chained to the Rocks
+1 Pithing Needle
-2 Izzet Charm
-2 Mizzium Mortars
-2 Turn // Burn

Vs Boros/Orzhov Agro:
+3 Last Breath
+3 Chained to the Rocks
-1 AEtherling
-1 Assemble the Legion
-2 Counterflux
-2 Sphinx's Revelation

These SB plans are just examples assuming I'm facing standard lists of those deck archetypes. I'd love advice on the list, or the SBing, or anything you got for me. Thanks!

Anyone tried running this as a 1of? It seems like it could be a good catch-some card, taking out most early drops and importantly mutavault, countering thoughtseize, or an emergency answer dig.

Thoughts?

Is there a particular reason people don't run 3-4 Izzet Charms? Its usable in a strong way in virtually every matchup, and every time I've seen someone discuss the results of their 1of Izzet charm, they say it overperformed. Why aren't we using it as our 2 drop charm over azorius?

Quote from tronist

what do you guys think of 1 illness in the ranks for the SB? how else do you guys effectively deal with assemble the legion that is resolved? (counters help)

I feel like it might be too niche. As Grixis, you have to accept that some cards are hard to fight once resolved.

Now, if a lot of people use it in your area? I'd have 1-2 illness SB. If your meta is fairly representative of the norm, it's not worth it.

Here's the thing about swan song: what Sorceries do you want to counter?

Virtually no soerceries see play ATM. Annul is just better right now.

Quote from pumpmonkey

If you just use those for a mill deck,then yes they are very slow. If you add it with other mill cards/walkers, it works pretty good.

In which case you are devoting multiple cards to a rather inefficient win strategy. Here's what I've never seen answered: how is this approach BETTER then an AEtherling wincon? I don't see a reason that it would possibly be any better.

Now to note: I don't think that Ashioks and Jace Mem adepts are bad, their both fine and make milling out your opponent a viable wincon. But they aren't the MAIN wincon. Ashiok does a lot more then just mill, and Memory Adepts are a SB for control to hit them with late-game.

Quote from funnywille

So I remember there being decks with 4x Steam Augury and Psychic Spirals. What happened to those decks? I'm considering making that deck. What was the problem?

With all due respect: their terrible.

Psychic Spiral is a completely useless card until 20+ rounds in. It takes too long, doesn't do jack until it can win, unlike other wincons which can be useful. It's far too slow vs agro and midrange, and to susceptible to counterspells vs control. Just....don't do it.

Quote from Toonamiguy

I don't know about Esper, I mean Aetherling will always do the job better, as for MBD, when they kill it, and they will kill it, you will most likely help them by bringing back all their creatures, including Gray Merchant, which might even kill you.

Fair enough. I guess it relies too much on them boarding out all of their removal.

Ah well.

Quote from Toonamiguy

If you really need artifact hate, there's always Rakdos Charm, which is also GY hate so great against Whip, however, personally I prefer to run Crypt Incursion for life gain against aggro decks, but can also be boarded in against MBD for their Whip.

Those work, but cards that are only relevant in ONE situation are always....tedious.

So I just had an idea. It's kinda radical, but please give it a serious think before you respond. What if we had 3 SB Underworld Cerberus?

Think about it. MBC will board out most of their removal, probably only leaving hero's downfall. Esper decks do the same thing. So the Cerberus are wincons vs both lists, AND while a cerberi is in play, whip can't target their grave cards.

I was just looking through cards for another decklist, saw Cerberus and read it carefully. I think this could work.

Thoughts?

I've also found that Whip is the decks main issue. Obzedat, Blood Baron, and Mistcutter should all be manageable with the right removal suite: Sac effects (Far//Away, Devour Flesh), Turn//Burn, Doom Blade and Ultimate Price are good on the Mistcutter.

But we have virtually no answer to Whip. Anyone out there have a solution? Because that's the only pitfall holding Grixis Control back imo.

Quote from The Other Guy

Not sure I agree.

As long as UW+ has the trio of Charm, Verdict and Revelation, they will always play the better draw-go game.

We have what? Izzet Charm, Anger, Augury and Opportunity..eh it's not even close.

Izzet Charm's a biggie. So is Augury. Also, we have actual instant speed removal, which Esper struggles to access. And surprisingly, Frostburn Weird has been nutso in draw-go strategy. Seriously, he's the centerpoint of the deck.

All the colour schemes can go tapout or draw-go to success, this is just the results of my testing and opinion. However, I'd love to see how you take Grixis in a tapout direction, because I may be doing it wrong and thus getting bad results.

Quote from pumpmonkey

Gratz, sounds like a fun weekend. Thanks for the details, really interesting to read what others are SB'ing. Results like these are very encouraging

I have been trying to figure out if I want to go Draw-Go/EoTSAYL or Tap-Out. Went Draw-Go this weekend without much success, but 2 of the 3 games I lost was because of draw. Mine or theirs, never really had a chance.

Thanks. I personally prefer the Draw-Go style a lot more. WUR and Esper do a lot better in tapout strategies in my opinion, because of how useful Detention sphere and Elspeth are to a tapout control strategy.

Won my game day yesterday going 5-0, I'm really happy with the deck list I have ATM. Here's the list:



Here's a match by match analysis:

Round 1: Vs WG Agro (2-1)
It was the interesting version with ethereal armor. I think this ones heavy in our favor, but bad luck and mistakes made it close.

G1: mull to 5 and got mana screwed. It happens.
SB:
+1 Anger of the Gods
+2 Devour Flesh
-1 Frostburn Weird
-1 Steam Augury
-1 Rakdos's Return
G2: Ended up really close, had to mull to 6 and the mana still wasn't spectacular, but meh. Ended up beating him to death with a Frostburn weird.
G3: Drew all of the removal and stomped him. Easy game.

Round 2: Vs Esper control (2-1)
I think it's in our favor, though damn did I get surprised out of his SB.
G1: I controlled the board until winning the AEtherling counterwars, and proceeded to, well, AEtherling him.
SB:
+3 Counterflux
+2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
+1 Jace, Memory Adept
+2 Izzet Charm
+2 Rakdos's Return
-2 Doom Blade
-3 Far // Away
-2 Turn // Burn
-3 Anger of the Gods
G2: So he lands Nightveil specters back to back turns 3 and 4. Um. K. Died to them drew no answers.
G3: By far the funniest game of magic I've ever played. Never dealt damage to him with my creatures. Try to unravel this:

I killed him with his Nightveil specters reanimated by my Ashiok and used the cards they got from his deck to remove the AEtherling his Nightveil specter stole from my deck and to cast his Jace to draw my counters for the counters his Nightveil specter stole from me.


Aaaaand breathe. So that game I won in a hilarious fashion. We each stole 6-7 cards min from each other.

Round 3: Vs BG rock (2-0)
Pretty easy matchup I honestly don't recall the games, so I won't write it out. But something with AEtherling happened.

Round 4: Vs RDW (2-0)
Not as easy as before, and again I don't recall them too well, but I jammed spot removal until Frostburn weirds found the win.

Round 5: Vs RDW (2-1)
This one was hard, and I remember it well.
G1: I managed to stabilize at 6 or so life after many Anger of the gods, and beat down with a Frostburn weird.
SB:
+1 Anger of the Gods
+2 Devour Flesh
+2 Izzet Charm
-1 Rakdos's Return
-1 Ratchet Bomb
-1 Steam Augury
-1 AEtherling
-1 Jace, Architect of Thought

G2: I mulled to 6 and drew ****, he curved Cackler - Ash Zealot - Pheonix - Burning earth. I conceded.
G3: I managed to stabilize at 5 life, then he cast a burning earth. I ticked away with a
Frostburn weird countering and removing his plays until he cast another burning earth. So me at 2 life, sat there fighting it away for another few turns until I managed to get the win. It was intense.

Anyhow, the changes I'm considering are:
MB:
+1 Frostburn Weird
-1 Ratchet Bomb

SB:
+1 Jace, Memory Adept
+3 Thoughtseize
-2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
-2 Pithing Needle

Hey guys. I just went 4-0-split at gameday, and here's the reports:

Firstly, the decklist I used going in:



I faced 2 Mono-Black Devotion decks, one GR Monsters, and a Grixis tapout control list. I also played the other 4-0 for the playmat after we split prize, who was also Mono-Black Devotion, and he beat me I wanted that mat.

So my comments on the Mono-Black Devotion matchup is that it's actually really hard. They have 3 big enchantments (Underworld Connections, Whip of Erebos, Erebos, God of the Dead) that are devastating, and we can't get them off the board. That's what got me in the finals matchup: eventually he landed them, and I had no answers. Other then Pithing Needle, anyone got any ideas on how to remove these or shore up this matchup? In my opinion this is our hardest matchup, unless I'm missing some obvious hate cards.

GR Monsters was really easy to fight. Both games were me stalling until AEtherling landed to wreck face. Ratchet Bomb was a godsend here, as was Anger of the Gods.

The Grixis matchup was interesting. It was very well piloted, and he got me game one because I removal swamped (no, I'm not kidding, I drew 0 counters, 1 Jace, lands, and removal that wasn't dreadbore). However, games 2 and 3 were mine because I had superior counterspell coverage, and boarded in a ton for him. However, it still wasn't the easiest of games.

Anyhow, split the packs between top 2, got 23 packs, opened a Master of Waves, Thassa, Purphoros, Nylea, Xenagos, and a bunch of 5-6 dollar cards, so good day :). Anyone got any suggestions on changes I should make before tomorrow?

Also, for the record, in my style of Grixis cutting Ashiok was definitely the right idea. I didn't miss him in the slightest.