Also, Trinisphere seems questionable in this format, where most of the cards that are relevant cost 3+. It seems like you'd rather have cards like Sphere of Resistance.
Burning of Xinye is a sweet duplicate Wildfire, and there are terrible cards like Tremble and Crack the Earth if you want to push the LD theme even harder, even at a multiplayer table.
As weird as it seems, Faultgrinder might be a reasonable include here, since it's easily recurred.
Your build is VERY top heavy, which is part of why it's so slow. My build tends to focus much more on early drops and tutors, and controlling the game from a very early point in time. Time Warp is pretty bad outside of comboing with it. And really, if you're comboing with Time Warp, you could win with just about any other card in the deck.
Null Rod seems questionable, but I can see it in metagames with heavy emphasis on artifact mana. Spine of Ish Sah seems actively bad. Just Wrath with Child or Strip Mine something away. Spine is almost certainly unnecessary, especially without easy ways to sacrifice it.
The Counterspell creatures are questionable, especially two of them. I've tried running each of them in the past, and wasn't impressed. The deck can do things that, generally, just don't care about spells at all. I can definitely see justifying running a single one (probably Voidmage Prodigy, for the interaction with Sun Titan), but definitely not both.
Buried Alive seems very mediocre, since you usually don't want to set up creature engines, but land engines instead.
All Sun's Dawn is also questionable, since it doesn't get back lands. You have other recursion loops that can get back any card you might need given the time; I'd rather have another card that does something more proactive.
Burgeoning is questionable, since you don't get to play lands from your graveyard with it, and it can be difficult to keep your hand full of lands. That said, it's been awhile since I've played with it, so I might need to test it again.
You're playing way too many non-Plains, non-Snow basics. Snow lands give you Mouth of Ronom. There's also a few too may Cyclers, and there aren't any manlands.
There's no reason not to run Sylvan Library. It's a card-draw engine, superb card selection with all the fetchlands, and is generally just an insane card.
Ad Nauseam is the second-best card in the deck that you're missing, and has led to some of the dumbest games I've ever played.
Nim Deathmantle is another sick card that you should 100% be running. It gives the deck all kinds of late game, and lets you play at instant speed as long as you have land-based sacrifice outlets.
Meloku the Clouded Mirror is likely on par or better than Worm Harvest; there have been very few games I've played where Worm Harvest has been relevant; and Meloku interacts favorably with lands like Bojuka Bog and Manabond.
Curious to hear what your thoughts are, especially on the high basic count. Illusivek and I talked about the deck quite a bit about a year ago, and determined that there were really two directions to take the deck. His take is much more like traditional control, in that it cares a lot more about resolving spells, and has a high end to the curve.
My build tops out at six with Titans, and instead focuses on having brutally efficient engines to lock people out as early on in the game as possible, and then end the game with either Kessig Wolf Run plus Child of Alara or Valakut and Summer Bloom.
@trancekat
There aren't that many spells that destroy lands that you care about. You're much more concerned about Strip Mine or Acidic Slime, something that's more easily recurred. One shot spells usually aren't a problem; I've won fairly easily through multiple Armageddons and/or Ruinations just because of the sheer redundancy and recursion the deck is built on.
I'd check here first. Adam Styborski's a great guy who's been playing with Tokens for as long as I've known him. This is a Pauper take on Rhys, which should have some sweet common interactions that aren't too expensive.
For what it's worth, I'm probably one of the people who's invested the most time in this archetype, and was definitely one of the first to start exploring the 50-some land decks with Child of Alara.
There's been some pretty extensive discussion about it on some other websites, and I've put up two articles about it on Quiet Speculation. Links!
Is there anything to stop us from saying that a card has to share a color/mana symbol with your general?
That would allow white decks to cast Bringer of the White Dawn, but wouldn't let green decks run Kiki-Jiki/Pestermite or black decks to run WGD.
Personally, I don't see the problem in letting those decks run off color spells. The people who are going to do degenerate things will do them regardless of what the rules are, and any other problems can be handled socially.
I just think it's really dumb that I can't use Bringers and other mono-colored cards because of off-color bonuses.
Sylvan Library is really good in any green deck that needs to dig for certain pieces. It's filtering and/or card drawing, and is always awesome. Combos with something like Abundance (not sure if you run this?), which is also very good with Damia.
Solitary Confinement also works with Life from the Loam and some kind of Cycling land or Horizon Canopy or Cephalid Coliseum too. Also works with Crucible plus Petrified Field or Crucible plus Horizon Canopy.
If you're really interested in Seismic Assault, you could also try Land's Edge, but I'm not sure what color combination you'd want at that point. Maybe BRG?
Honestly, I don't thnk it matters which approach they use. The RC just needs to be consistent, which it's shown it can't be. That's the real problem, honestly.
Out of curiosity, have you played with Recurring Nightmare before? Saying that Recurring Nightmare is good with creatures is like saying that Necropotence is good with having life. It's a resource that is pretty much always available to you, and most of the creatures you're recurring are going to give you access to more creatures. Recurring Nightmare makes the creatures that are most common in EDH decks absurdly unfair. Here's a few off the top of my head:
If you're willing to consider these other cards in their optimum deck/scenario, you have to consider Nightmare in that scenario too. The fact of the matter is that, with a broken creature, Nightmare is absurdly overpowered. With a mediocre creature, it's still absurdly powerful, because you generate a huge amount of card advantage and can turn your bad creatures into broken ones, and then start recycling those.
You've got to remember that there are two kinds of decks that a card can be played in. one that's specifically built around that particular card, and one that isn't.
Sure, you can point out cards/combos that are legal that are more powerful in their particular deck, but many of these cards are just stupidly powerful thrown into any random deck. That's why they're banned. They make decks that are otherwise completely fair do something that's completely unfair.
Recurring Nightmare is backbreaking with ANY random creature, much less creatures specifically there to abuse it. You can't say that about something like...Dread Return, which is obviously absurdly broken in the right context, but is otherwise completely fair, and a card that people will use "fairly." Recurring Nightmare takes otherwise fair cards, and makes them obscenely and oppressively powerful.
Same with Biorhythm and Coalition Victory.
The point is, these cards make otherwise fair decks feel less "casual." You can build a turbo Scion combo deck that's built to combo off efficiently, but that's not the point. The format is broken if you want to break it; there are easily a dozen different combo decks that can win the game by turn 4 consistently. That's what the hypothetical social contract is there to prevent.
Ideally, the banned list is there to stop individual cards that are oppressive almost regardless of the gamestate, while the social contract is there to stop you from building Turbo Hermit Druid/Scion/Erayo combo.
That isn't to say that it's how the current banned list IS formatted, but I think it's a vague description of the vision that the RC has, as I understand it.
I'd have it between White and Blue honestly. Red isn't really that good; all you really get from it is Seismic Assault (which is honestly not THAT good) and Valakut, which has been on the chopping block for just about forever in my list.
Blue gives you a ton of consistency, and space to add to the deck as your budget allows. Intuition is one of the best cards in the deck, and Academy Ruins gives you all kinds of consistency.
I'd honestly seriously consider White. You get some of the most powerful cards, and can substitute prison effects for the lack of Child of Alara. Besides, if you're only playing three color you can certainly get Emeria active without too much trouble (I'll go into how a little later). White gives you these kinds of effects:
Solitary Confinement
Spirit of Resistance (5 color only)
Sun Titan (recurring Oblivion Stone/Pernicious Deed/Solitary)
Emeria
Sacred Ground/Terra Eternal
Nomad Stadium
Kor Haven
Stoneforge Mystic (for Sword of Light and Shadow/Feast and Famine/Nim Deathmantle)
I'd seriously consider either Karador (from Commander sets coming out later) or Teneb as the general as additional recursion engines. Here's how you can try to get the most plains out of the mana base, even on a budget:
Fetches (even budget ones!) plus Loam/Crucible/Tilling Treefolk and shocklands, white-based shocklands, which aren't that expensive. Then run stuff like Flood Plain, Grasslands, and Krosan Verge in addition to/instead of Windswept Heath and company.
Basically, I'd be looking at UWG or BUG, with any red splash a distant third.
Storm Cauldron
Orb of Dreams
Storage Matrix
Also, Trinisphere seems questionable in this format, where most of the cards that are relevant cost 3+. It seems like you'd rather have cards like Sphere of Resistance.
Burning of Xinye is a sweet duplicate Wildfire, and there are terrible cards like Tremble and Crack the Earth if you want to push the LD theme even harder, even at a multiplayer table.
As weird as it seems, Faultgrinder might be a reasonable include here, since it's easily recurred.
Your build is VERY top heavy, which is part of why it's so slow. My build tends to focus much more on early drops and tutors, and controlling the game from a very early point in time. Time Warp is pretty bad outside of comboing with it. And really, if you're comboing with Time Warp, you could win with just about any other card in the deck.
Null Rod seems questionable, but I can see it in metagames with heavy emphasis on artifact mana. Spine of Ish Sah seems actively bad. Just Wrath with Child or Strip Mine something away. Spine is almost certainly unnecessary, especially without easy ways to sacrifice it.
The Counterspell creatures are questionable, especially two of them. I've tried running each of them in the past, and wasn't impressed. The deck can do things that, generally, just don't care about spells at all. I can definitely see justifying running a single one (probably Voidmage Prodigy, for the interaction with Sun Titan), but definitely not both.
Buried Alive seems very mediocre, since you usually don't want to set up creature engines, but land engines instead.
All Sun's Dawn is also questionable, since it doesn't get back lands. You have other recursion loops that can get back any card you might need given the time; I'd rather have another card that does something more proactive.
Burgeoning is questionable, since you don't get to play lands from your graveyard with it, and it can be difficult to keep your hand full of lands. That said, it's been awhile since I've played with it, so I might need to test it again.
You're playing way too many non-Plains, non-Snow basics. Snow lands give you Mouth of Ronom. There's also a few too may Cyclers, and there aren't any manlands.
There's no reason not to run Sylvan Library. It's a card-draw engine, superb card selection with all the fetchlands, and is generally just an insane card.
Dryad Arbor is one of the best lands in the deck, because of the interaction with Emeria, the Sky Ruin and Knight of the Reliquary or Glacial Chasm.
Ad Nauseam is the second-best card in the deck that you're missing, and has led to some of the dumbest games I've ever played.
Nim Deathmantle is another sick card that you should 100% be running. It gives the deck all kinds of late game, and lets you play at instant speed as long as you have land-based sacrifice outlets.
You're missing Deserted Temple, which gives you an easier, more synergistic infinite turns combo with Rings of Brighthearth and Magosi, the Waterveil. Rings at least is quite good on it's own.
Meloku the Clouded Mirror is likely on par or better than Worm Harvest; there have been very few games I've played where Worm Harvest has been relevant; and Meloku interacts favorably with lands like Bojuka Bog and Manabond.
Curious to hear what your thoughts are, especially on the high basic count. Illusivek and I talked about the deck quite a bit about a year ago, and determined that there were really two directions to take the deck. His take is much more like traditional control, in that it cares a lot more about resolving spells, and has a high end to the curve.
My build tops out at six with Titans, and instead focuses on having brutally efficient engines to lock people out as early on in the game as possible, and then end the game with either Kessig Wolf Run plus Child of Alara or Valakut and Summer Bloom.
@trancekat
There aren't that many spells that destroy lands that you care about. You're much more concerned about Strip Mine or Acidic Slime, something that's more easily recurred. One shot spells usually aren't a problem; I've won fairly easily through multiple Armageddons and/or Ruinations just because of the sheer redundancy and recursion the deck is built on.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/sf/155
There's been some pretty extensive discussion about it on some other websites, and I've put up two articles about it on Quiet Speculation. Links!
http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/05/lands-before-time/#!
http://www.quietspeculation.com/2011/07/the-atomic-baby/#!
" Forum discussion">http://forum.mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=6866&view=next
hope this helps! Always glad to see more discussion about the archetype!
EDIT: Call to Heel has been pretty sick too.
EDIT 2: Dismantling Blow?
EDIT 3: Skulltap?
totally meant Worldly Counsel had been working on a Verdeloth deck and had mono-green on the brain.
That would allow white decks to cast Bringer of the White Dawn, but wouldn't let green decks run Kiki-Jiki/Pestermite or black decks to run WGD.
Personally, I don't see the problem in letting those decks run off color spells. The people who are going to do degenerate things will do them regardless of what the rules are, and any other problems can be handled socially.
I just think it's really dumb that I can't use Bringers and other mono-colored cards because of off-color bonuses.
There's definitely been some increased interest in this kind of archetype, so if there's interest in discussing it, this is a good place to do it!
I've also had fun with Yosei and Kemba, but those didn't last as long.
If you're really interested in Seismic Assault, you could also try Land's Edge, but I'm not sure what color combination you'd want at that point. Maybe BRG?
Out of curiosity, have you played with Recurring Nightmare before? Saying that Recurring Nightmare is good with creatures is like saying that Necropotence is good with having life. It's a resource that is pretty much always available to you, and most of the creatures you're recurring are going to give you access to more creatures. Recurring Nightmare makes the creatures that are most common in EDH decks absurdly unfair. Here's a few off the top of my head:
Sundering Titan
Eternal Witness
Titans
Clones
Duplicant
Yosei
Keiga
Shriekmaw
Karmic Guide
Reveillark
NPH Chancellors (some?)
Stoneforge Mystic
Seedguide Ash
Woodfall Primus
Angel of Despair
Terastodon
If you're willing to consider these other cards in their optimum deck/scenario, you have to consider Nightmare in that scenario too. The fact of the matter is that, with a broken creature, Nightmare is absurdly overpowered. With a mediocre creature, it's still absurdly powerful, because you generate a huge amount of card advantage and can turn your bad creatures into broken ones, and then start recycling those.
You've got to remember that there are two kinds of decks that a card can be played in. one that's specifically built around that particular card, and one that isn't.
Sure, you can point out cards/combos that are legal that are more powerful in their particular deck, but many of these cards are just stupidly powerful thrown into any random deck. That's why they're banned. They make decks that are otherwise completely fair do something that's completely unfair.
Recurring Nightmare is backbreaking with ANY random creature, much less creatures specifically there to abuse it. You can't say that about something like...Dread Return, which is obviously absurdly broken in the right context, but is otherwise completely fair, and a card that people will use "fairly." Recurring Nightmare takes otherwise fair cards, and makes them obscenely and oppressively powerful.
Same with Biorhythm and Coalition Victory.
The point is, these cards make otherwise fair decks feel less "casual." You can build a turbo Scion combo deck that's built to combo off efficiently, but that's not the point. The format is broken if you want to break it; there are easily a dozen different combo decks that can win the game by turn 4 consistently. That's what the hypothetical social contract is there to prevent.
Ideally, the banned list is there to stop individual cards that are oppressive almost regardless of the gamestate, while the social contract is there to stop you from building Turbo Hermit Druid/Scion/Erayo combo.
That isn't to say that it's how the current banned list IS formatted, but I think it's a vague description of the vision that the RC has, as I understand it.
Blue gives you a ton of consistency, and space to add to the deck as your budget allows. Intuition is one of the best cards in the deck, and Academy Ruins gives you all kinds of consistency.
I'd honestly seriously consider White. You get some of the most powerful cards, and can substitute prison effects for the lack of Child of Alara. Besides, if you're only playing three color you can certainly get Emeria active without too much trouble (I'll go into how a little later). White gives you these kinds of effects:
Solitary Confinement
Spirit of Resistance (5 color only)
Sun Titan (recurring Oblivion Stone/Pernicious Deed/Solitary)
Emeria
Sacred Ground/Terra Eternal
Nomad Stadium
Kor Haven
Stoneforge Mystic (for Sword of Light and Shadow/Feast and Famine/Nim Deathmantle)
I'd seriously consider either Karador (from Commander sets coming out later) or Teneb as the general as additional recursion engines. Here's how you can try to get the most plains out of the mana base, even on a budget:
Fetches (even budget ones!) plus Loam/Crucible/Tilling Treefolk and shocklands, white-based shocklands, which aren't that expensive. Then run stuff like Flood Plain, Grasslands, and Krosan Verge in addition to/instead of Windswept Heath and company.
Basically, I'd be looking at UWG or BUG, with any red splash a distant third.