Maybie it is just what we needed...
Maybie it doesn´t fit in here...
Testing will prove...
However, I believe this is strong in the archetype because at the same time:
1.- We will have a draw mechanism (one card advantage per turn with the second ability).
2.- We will have a permanent bounce ability to support our control plan.
3.- We will have an aditional win condition beside the creature attack.
4.- The four mana cost isn´t a big deal on a deck like this (running 24 lands and focusing on the mid-late game strategy).
I just wanted to make sure that I´m not (that) crazy...
Please correct me If i am wrong:
Since
"404.1. A triggered ability begins with the word “when,” “whenever,” or “at.” The phrase containing one of these words is the trigger condition, which defines the trigger event."
and because this
"410.10e Some permanents have text that reads “[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ,” “[This permanent] comes into play as . . . ,” or “[This permanent] comes into play tapped.” Such text is a static ability—not a triggered ability—whose effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play."
is not the same that
410.10a Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this card] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.
Path to Exile is not better than StP as a creature removal spell. It does not seems logical to stablish that TA died because of this specifical card print.
If this strong archetype is now less played is, imo, because of the ferocity of the heavily played aggro merfolk decks and its favorable results against Team America.
If Canadian is by now one of the best of the format is because it can handle tribal-aggro builds in a way that TA cannot.
The agresive gameplan of the hoarde gained prestige and many players decide to take a try for Zoo, Vial Goblins, Merfolks, Goyf Sligh, etc. This is today´s fashion, the reason of many of the aggro T8 all around the world.
But as this fashion dies (Combo (ANT) proves to be strong enough and Control demostrates its capability to stop the dominant gameplan) many of the fashion players are now deciding to play Control and Combo.
I believe this is the time, because of the favorable context, to play something like Team America. I am now testing it and seems to be competitive. Canadian, ANT and Countertop variants can be relatively easy to disrupt if you deny them entire colors and counter vital spells...
I am aware that during the year this deck archetype proved to be competitive enough and I was guessing why it is not considered as one. Foremost since its results seems to be, at least, as good as other tier decks of the format.
As you know, "Europe" or "Team America" is a strong deck focused in land disruption. It runs full sets of some of the best cards in our format: Brainstorm, Daze, Force of Will, Stifle, Sinkhole, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker, Thoughtsieze, Wasteland, etc.
Team America is a tempo build that shines the most in a developed legacy enviroment. I´m wondering why is this archetype no long considered competitive enough for the current worldwide metagame.
Did the format evolved in such a way that one of the most representative decks of 2008 suddenly passed bye?
Hello, this is a control build focused on the Counterbalance/Sensei´s Divining Top interaction and the underrated but powerfull combo of Energy Field and Wheel of the Sun and Moon.
It works as a typical legacy control but with a different win condition. Here the combo is part of the control and protection strategy (different from dreadstill).
By now, one of its main problems is time. It is not difficult to draw the game if you don´t play the deck fast enough. This because killing your enemy with angels that hit the table only after you have entirely controled the game is pretty difficult to achieve in a few minutes.
Ok. Thanks. I´m currently playing a classic monoblack aggro (4 sinkhole, 4 duress, 3 thoughtsieze, 4 hymn to tourach, 4 smother...) and I was planning to work on something different that could work as the kithkin or goblin hoarde without being focused on the disruption.
Since there is no competitive zombie list (or at least I don´t know one) I am willing to take a try under the idea of making it massively creature based.
Would you consider that it is strictly needed the "control" part in order to make it "aggro-control" as the competitive merfolks (FoW, coursecather)?
That list, as you suggest, would be something like:
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
3 Withered Wretch
3 Graveborn Muse
3 Death Baron
3 Undead Warchief
2 Zombie Master
3 Lord of the Undead
Artifacts:
3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Other spells:
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Smother
About the card choices I guess you are right, the cemetery reaper is cutted and in replace I add the Lord of the Undead and the Master (which I still consider a subprime option because it does not pump them but i recognize that comboing with Urborg works really nicely).
The Aether Vial could be a good addition but we lose the option of explosive turn one dark ritual + thoughtsieze and Hymn to Tourach.
It would use the force of numbers just as other tribal builds of the orthodox legacy (elves, merfolks, goblins) plus the suicidal draw engine, graveyard hate and mana rituals of the black mage.
Since the mana costs are relatively high (8 of four mana and 8 of three mana) the Dark Confidant is replaced for a really powerfull draw mechanism: Graveborn Muse. As a way to counterbalance the life loss we have the jittes (which are also a very versatile option for aggro) and the Carrion Feeder to sacrifice the muse when needed.
The Withered Wretch is usefull against Tarmogoyfs and may be a way to slow down Ichorid and Reanimate decks. It is also a 2/2 zombie that hits the table for two and that can be powered by the reaper, the baron and the warchief.
If four Merfolk Sovereign, four Merrow Reejerey and four Lord of Atlantis are the fish way to declare war, the Zombie deck list response needs to be that agressive at least.
Imagine that Counterbalance and Sensei´s Divining Top are in play under my control and that my opponent plays some random spell which converted mana cost is two.
1.- I pay one mana and activate the top. I look at the three cards of my library and notice that there is no spell of CMC=2. But there is a Mystical Tutor.
2.- I set the mystical as the top card of my library and then I activate the second ability of the top in order to draw the blue tutor. Then I play it to search for an instant whith CMC=2 (f.e. Counterspell).
3.- I reveal the Counterspell in the top of my library and counter the random spell as the counterbalance static ability resolves.
Is this a legal move? Would I be able to add stuff to the stack after the first top´s activated ability resolves?
1.- May I still announce the Breakthrough and then play it by sacrificing LED?
2.- Then, if it is legal to announce spells, may I announce the careful study, then announce the breakthrough, next spend my mana for the careful study, then for the breakthrough and let both spells "simultaneosly" on the stack? Is this a legal move? How will this resolve?
3.- May I dredge 5 cards with the Imp as a remplacement of the first draw with breakthrough, put a green golgari (Golgari Grave Troll) in my graveyard as the first dredge resolve and then dredge for other 6 cards with the golgari as a remplacement of the second draw?
Thanks for reading. Sorry for the lack of card links.
If three stinkweed imp are in my graveyard may I dredge 15 cards (5 per each) during my draw step or at any other time that I would draw a card via carefull study or deep analysis?
The question is: does the dredge ability triggers once per draw?
As you have noticed, Zendikar has plenty of usefull cards for eternal formats.
By constructing this G/B deck I am willing to exploit two of the significant ones: Lotus Cobra and, over all, Vampire Hexmage.
The deck is build around the Dark Depths - Vampire combo and uses goyf as an alternative win condition. I am aware of the weakness of the combo, which is fragile against many of heavily played cards in legacy such as StP, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, etc. but I also believe that this could be played if we find a way to make it more consistent, competitive.
It´s pretty obvious that you are willing to atack with the gigantic legendary creature as soon as posible. In the early game you are suposed to protect the combo via Duress and Thoughtsieze and accelerate it with diamond, petal and ritual.
If something stops your initial plan you should be able to play a mid game strategy based in the card advantage of Dark Confidant and the sinergy between Crucible of Worlds, Lotus Cobra and Wasteland.
The Cobra is specially usefull here because of its explosive interaction whith fetchlands and Crop Rotation (also the main tutor for Dark Depths). Wordly Tutor should help searching the vampire for the combo, the confidant as a draw engine and cobra for extra mana.
The goyfs, at least in theory, should get big soon enough to represent an aditional pressure. This because you run plenty of artifacts, instants, sorceries, creatures and fetchlands.
What do you think about this build?
Your help is greately appreciated.
Thanks.
what about cabal ritual? if you run enough rits and sacrifical mana sources, you should be able to get threshhold easily enough. also, i don't think chrome mox is a very good idea here. you'd be better off with simian spirit guide or somesuch. it's a common and only one mana if you need it as such, which is about all you'll need the mox for, too.
Cabal Rituals are nice but I don´t think that one in the initial hand is fast enought.
About the Chrome Mox, I think that they are needed because I still need black mana to play dark ritual in turn one. If I add the two mana lands (City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb) it will be harder to cast an important number of spells even if running the green or red spirit guide.
Yeah, you need to deal with the fact that your deck straight-up loses if Null Rod is resolved before you activate the Helm... but otherwise this looks like a very good start.
Thanks for the advice. What should I run in the sideboard to deal with things like Null Rod? Maybie more Thoughtsieze, something like Pithing Needle, artifact distruption?
Hello, I´m sure that this combo is familiar to all of you. You must start the game with Layline of the Void and accelerate your game until you are able to activate the Helm of Obedience for an instant mill. This should be relatively easy to achieve on turn two or three.
I´m having some troubles to make the combo base more consistent. I´m trying to keep it monoblack because splashing blue (which is an obvious improve in order to get advantage of counters and control) will imply to buy the expensive original duals that by the moment I am not able to afford.
I think that the swamps should be replaced but I am not sure of what lands to play. I'm searching for fetchlands (Polluted Delta) and also for an Imperial Seal.
http://media-dominaria.cursecdn.com/attachments/72/738/635032489866491539.jpg
Maybie it is just what we needed...
Maybie it doesn´t fit in here...
Testing will prove...
However, I believe this is strong in the archetype because at the same time:
1.- We will have a draw mechanism (one card advantage per turn with the second ability).
2.- We will have a permanent bounce ability to support our control plan.
3.- We will have an aditional win condition beside the creature attack.
4.- The four mana cost isn´t a big deal on a deck like this (running 24 lands and focusing on the mid-late game strategy).
Please correct me If i am wrong:
Since
"404.1. A triggered ability begins with the word “when,” “whenever,” or “at.” The phrase containing one of these words is the trigger condition, which defines the trigger event."
and because this
"410.10e Some permanents have text that reads “[This permanent] comes into play with . . . ,” “As [this permanent] comes into play . . . ,” “[This permanent] comes into play as . . . ,” or “[This permanent] comes into play tapped.” Such text is a static ability—not a triggered ability—whose effect occurs as part of the event that puts the permanent into play."
is not the same that
410.10a Comes-into-play abilities trigger when a permanent enters the in-play zone. These are written, “When [this card] comes into play, . . . “ or “Whenever a [type] comes into play, . . .” Each time an event puts one or more permanents into play, all permanents in play (including the newcomers) are checked for any comes-into-play triggers that match the event.
effects like the "as" *** "comes into play" of Meddling Mage and Runed Halo can´t be countered by something like Stifle or Trickbind, right?
Thank you.
If this strong archetype is now less played is, imo, because of the ferocity of the heavily played aggro merfolk decks and its favorable results against Team America.
If Canadian is by now one of the best of the format is because it can handle tribal-aggro builds in a way that TA cannot.
The agresive gameplan of the hoarde gained prestige and many players decide to take a try for Zoo, Vial Goblins, Merfolks, Goyf Sligh, etc. This is today´s fashion, the reason of many of the aggro T8 all around the world.
But as this fashion dies (Combo (ANT) proves to be strong enough and Control demostrates its capability to stop the dominant gameplan) many of the fashion players are now deciding to play Control and Combo.
I believe this is the time, because of the favorable context, to play something like Team America. I am now testing it and seems to be competitive. Canadian, ANT and Countertop variants can be relatively easy to disrupt if you deny them entire colors and counter vital spells...
Suddenly, post replies ended in february 2008...
I am aware that during the year this deck archetype proved to be competitive enough and I was guessing why it is not considered as one. Foremost since its results seems to be, at least, as good as other tier decks of the format.
Team America is a tempo build that shines the most in a developed legacy enviroment. I´m wondering why is this archetype no long considered competitive enough for the current worldwide metagame.
Did the format evolved in such a way that one of the most representative decks of 2008 suddenly passed bye?
Control:
4 Sensei´s Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Runed Halo
Protection Combo:
4 Wheel of the Sun and Moon
4 Energy Field
4 Enlightened Tutor
Win:
2 Luminarch Ascention
Draw:
3 Standstill
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
Lands:
4 Tundra
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
It works as a typical legacy control but with a different win condition. Here the combo is part of the control and protection strategy (different from dreadstill).
By now, one of its main problems is time. It is not difficult to draw the game if you don´t play the deck fast enough. This because killing your enemy with angels that hit the table only after you have entirely controled the game is pretty difficult to achieve in a few minutes.
What do you think?
Since there is no competitive zombie list (or at least I don´t know one) I am willing to take a try under the idea of making it massively creature based.
Would you consider that it is strictly needed the "control" part in order to make it "aggro-control" as the competitive merfolks (FoW, coursecather)?
That list, as you suggest, would be something like:
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
3 Withered Wretch
3 Graveborn Muse
3 Death Baron
3 Undead Warchief
2 Zombie Master
3 Lord of the Undead
Artifacts:
3 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Other spells:
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Smother
Lands:
3 Wasteland
1 Unholy Grotto
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mutavault
13 Swamps
About the card choices I guess you are right, the cemetery reaper is cutted and in replace I add the Lord of the Undead and the Master (which I still consider a subprime option because it does not pump them but i recognize that comboing with Urborg works really nicely).
The Aether Vial could be a good addition but we lose the option of explosive turn one dark ritual + thoughtsieze and Hymn to Tourach.
Thanks.
The list:
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
3 Withered Wretch
3 Carrion Feeder
2 Stromgald Crusaders
4 Graveborn Muse
4 Death Baron
4 Undead Warchief
3 Cemetery Reaper
1 Lord of the Undead
4 Dark Rituals
2 Cabal Rituals
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands:
3 Wasteland
1 Unholy Grotto
1 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Mutavault
14 Swamps
Since the mana costs are relatively high (8 of four mana and 8 of three mana) the Dark Confidant is replaced for a really powerfull draw mechanism: Graveborn Muse. As a way to counterbalance the life loss we have the jittes (which are also a very versatile option for aggro) and the Carrion Feeder to sacrifice the muse when needed.
The Withered Wretch is usefull against Tarmogoyfs and may be a way to slow down Ichorid and Reanimate decks. It is also a 2/2 zombie that hits the table for two and that can be powered by the reaper, the baron and the warchief.
If four Merfolk Sovereign, four Merrow Reejerey and four Lord of Atlantis are the fish way to declare war, the Zombie deck list response needs to be that agressive at least.
Sarcomancy and Carnophage are the first drop threats and Stromgald Crusader is a nice creature that may gain flying.
Your suggestions will be very appreciated. Thanks.
1.- I pay one mana and activate the top. I look at the three cards of my library and notice that there is no spell of CMC=2. But there is a Mystical Tutor.
2.- I set the mystical as the top card of my library and then I activate the second ability of the top in order to draw the blue tutor. Then I play it to search for an instant whith CMC=2 (f.e. Counterspell).
3.- I reveal the Counterspell in the top of my library and counter the random spell as the counterbalance static ability resolves.
Is this a legal move? Would I be able to add stuff to the stack after the first top´s activated ability resolves?
Thanks.
I have three more questions about this archetype:
Supose that my initial hand is something like:
Lions Eye Diamond
Breakthrough
Careful Study
Stinkweed Imp
Cephalid Colliseum
Putrid Imp
Gemstone Mine
1.- May I still announce the Breakthrough and then play it by sacrificing LED?
2.- Then, if it is legal to announce spells, may I announce the careful study, then announce the breakthrough, next spend my mana for the careful study, then for the breakthrough and let both spells "simultaneosly" on the stack? Is this a legal move? How will this resolve?
3.- May I dredge 5 cards with the Imp as a remplacement of the first draw with breakthrough, put a green golgari (Golgari Grave Troll) in my graveyard as the first dredge resolve and then dredge for other 6 cards with the golgari as a remplacement of the second draw?
Thanks for reading. Sorry for the lack of card links.
The question is: does the dredge ability triggers once per draw?
Thanks
By constructing this G/B deck I am willing to exploit two of the significant ones: Lotus Cobra and, over all, Vampire Hexmage.
The deck is build around the Dark Depths - Vampire combo and uses goyf as an alternative win condition. I am aware of the weakness of the combo, which is fragile against many of heavily played cards in legacy such as StP, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, etc. but I also believe that this could be played if we find a way to make it more consistent, competitive.
The list:
Combo:
3 Dark Depths
4 Crop Rotation
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Wordly Tutor
Other Creatures:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Lotus Cobra
2 Tarmogoyf
Mana accel:
4 Dark Ritual
3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Diamond
Disruption/Defense:
3 Duress
3 Thoughtsieze
Other Artifacts:
3 Crucible of Worlds
Other Lands:
4 Bayou
1 B/G Shockland
5 Fetchlands
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
It´s pretty obvious that you are willing to atack with the gigantic legendary creature as soon as posible. In the early game you are suposed to protect the combo via Duress and Thoughtsieze and accelerate it with diamond, petal and ritual.
If something stops your initial plan you should be able to play a mid game strategy based in the card advantage of Dark Confidant and the sinergy between Crucible of Worlds, Lotus Cobra and Wasteland.
The Cobra is specially usefull here because of its explosive interaction whith fetchlands and Crop Rotation (also the main tutor for Dark Depths). Wordly Tutor should help searching the vampire for the combo, the confidant as a draw engine and cobra for extra mana.
The goyfs, at least in theory, should get big soon enough to represent an aditional pressure. This because you run plenty of artifacts, instants, sorceries, creatures and fetchlands.
What do you think about this build?
Your help is greately appreciated.
Thanks.
¨
City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb definately are good land options. Thanks for the suggestion.
My bad. I was thinking on Demonic Tutor and typing Diabolic Tutor.
Cabal Rituals are nice but I don´t think that one in the initial hand is fast enought.
About the Chrome Mox, I think that they are needed because I still need black mana to play dark ritual in turn one. If I add the two mana lands (City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb) it will be harder to cast an important number of spells even if running the green or red spirit guide.
Thanks for the advice. What should I run in the sideboard to deal with things like Null Rod? Maybie more Thoughtsieze, something like Pithing Needle, artifact distruption?
Thanks to all of you for your colaboration.
By now the only one I know is the Freed from the Real and Bloom Tender for infinite green mana.
Thanks for your colaboration.
I´m having some troubles to make the combo base more consistent. I´m trying to keep it monoblack because splashing blue (which is an obvious improve in order to get advantage of counters and control) will imply to buy the expensive original duals that by the moment I am not able to afford.
Here is the decklist:
Combo:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Serum Powder
Tutor:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
Draw Engine:
1 Yawgmoth Bargain
1 Necropotence
4 Infernal Contract
4 Street Wraith
Mana Accel:
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lion´s Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
Defense:
4 Duress
2 Thoughtsieze
Classic Card:
1 Yawgmoth´s Will
Lands:
16 Swamps
I think that the swamps should be replaced but I am not sure of what lands to play. I'm searching for fetchlands (Polluted Delta) and also for an Imperial Seal.
Suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks.