This card was not picked randomly, but it picks randomly itself, so I consider that a reasonable trade.
I know that I'm half a year shy of my intended tenure on this thread, but this is the thread's finale, my final Random Card of the Day. I don't know if anyone has a mind to pick up where I left off with a new random card thread here on Salvation, but there is a successor already rolling elsewhere full of familiar faces for those interested.
It's been great doing this, thank you to everyone who made this thread fun every day.
I thank you for the opportunity to carry on the legacy of this thread, a forum game and mtgsally tradition that has become one of the more looked forward to games to-date. And, thank you for allowing the opportunity to hand this tradition over to my hands.
Can I move all this discussion over to @mtgnexus where I've established the primer too? Based on the downtime of this site this m.k morning, I've got a few doubts as to the validity of this site's staying power.
I thought we're keeping this site? Are we losing it?
Hard to say, earlier it was down with an error unable to load, but the error only seemed to be on the forums. It persisted for a few hours so...maybe borrowed time?
I could see this having more of an impact in 1v1 commander, but in mutliplayer I still feel that Herald lacks the power we are looking for. 2 for 1 isn't good enough in my experience. We can agree to disagree on that one I suppose Smile
Perhaps I'm too old school with respect to card advantage theory. A 2 for is a 2 for is a 2 for, demanding a removal after being wrathed in order for your board to be fully contained is a big deal. I don't really know what else to say, if making one of your cards worth two of your opponent's isn't "strong enough", whatever that means, then that might be an issue of higher than is reasonable expectations. Not everything can be Villis, Broker of Blood in power level now...
I think one difference between Kaalia 1.0 and 2.0 is that we will have a much higher concentration of ADD in the deck with Zenith Seeker. At least we should if we are interested in making the most of her ability. We should have multiple ADD in our hand at any given time. In theory, Rakdos should allow us to play two 4-6cmc creatures in the same turn more reliably. Kaalia fills our hand, and Rakdos helps those ADD get onto the battlefield. If we are able to deal 4 damage to someone, instead of paying 7RRWW for Stormbreath Dragon and Sunblast Angel we are just paying RRWW allowing us to get those creatures out on the same turn. And I still feel that 6cmc creatures should be the exception to the rule. 5cmc and lower being the sweet spot. I agree that Rakdos can lend a false sense of security and we should still be leery of anything 6 cmc and over. Rakdos is there for a chance of increased efficiency, not to cheat huge creatures into play.
I think I see the issue though. You're looking into a magical christmasland experience where we play out our hand every turn and then refill every turn. I do not think this strategy is reasonable, nor is it supportable. The better (re: simpler) plan is less likely to botch when all you have to do is keep playing a threat or interaction and not run out of resources. There's a lot of ways to accumulate the value to climb into the mid to late game and even to protect yourself, than to dump your hand. Just because you can cast more threats, doesn't mean you need to. Angels, Demons, and Dragons are powerful creatures, how many do you need to deploy to the board? Are you trying to end the game in one swing, because if so you're better off with a combo or some type of one-shot application, rather than playing a bunch of threats.
I feel that Kaalia alone justifies the mox. She is cheap and doesn't draw hate. She should stay in play. If she gets removed, we get another trigger. For a zero cost ramp (especially one of the cheaper ones), i think the risk is worth it. Again, this is probably something that needs to be tested.
I don't think we can justify a card based on the existence of one other card, and call it ramp when it needs that card in order to perform it's role. That's the definition of a win-more card, and you'd be far better off with Mox Diamond (we need a higher land count), or Chrome Mox (which I think could slot in, albeit while conflicting with the rest of our other rocks). Mox Opal demands more artifact tribute, though goes in the same style of deck as Mox Tantalite (welder decks, which typically show up in Opal decks as cross synergy). With Mox AMber here, we're getting a mana off a three drop, four drop, and five drop which is the same range at which you'd be playing high end rocks that provide 2+ mana... Does this make sense?
Next, I would like to voice a few things I've been mulling over in my head:
Thematically, I strongly feel that this iteration of Kaalia demands a solid ETB theme to fully optimize the deck. Kaalia, Zenith Seeker by herself is actually pretty weak. You get one trigger off her, and you might be lucky to dig up 2 or at best 3 ADD. Because we are running the more efficiently costed ADD (and we can't reliably cheat them into play), none of these hits are going to be game winning. By themselves, they are good value but not enough to win. You need to consistently field smaller threats to build up to a win. And what happens when someone board wipes? Without proper support that can be devastating even with Kaalia's trigger. We can just keep digging up threats but we need to be prepared for that inevitability. For these reasons I think we need to maximize and abuse these smaller creatures to their fullest potential. That's where ETB support cards come in. To get an ETB trigger we either need to cast, blink, or reanimate. I will post my revised list soon, but this is the primary theme of the deck. Creatures entering the battlefield. Furthermore, I think we especially need reliable ways to trigger our commander's ability as many times as possible. Aside from blink, that means being able to sacrifice her and recast her from our command zone. While this gets more and more expensive, it does work. Victimize, Diabolic Intent and perhaps Ravenous Demon or Demonic Taskmaster might help fill this role.
Second, I think we should address the Worldgorger Dragon combo. Unlike with Kaalia 1.0, Kaalia 2.0 and Worldgorger Dragon can win us the game, allowing us to put all of our ADD into our hand with infinite mana at our disposal. If we don't have a game winning ETB ability already in play, that should be easy enough to make happen. You can also just cast something like Aurelia's Fury using the infinite mana. I think you could bring this list into cEDH territory if you wished, just building around this combo. But I think you and I both don't want to go that route. However, I am not opposed to at least having the combo in the deck and maindecking a few support cards for it because it is on theme. I guess I'd just like to hear an explanation for why you aren't using it because I think it can enable a consistent win and it combos directly with our commander.
Third, I've been thinking about what darrenhabib said in my thread about the land destruction package (it's like "holding a gun to your head") and after thinking it through I generally agree. I predict that things like Winter Orb, Armageddon, etc... will end up backfiring. Mostly because we aren't running a reliable way to circumvent mana costs like we did with Kaalia 1.0. We also aren't necessarily running any high cost ADD that can win the game on their own once in play. But we still need some lockdown, and I think an alternative lockdown strategy that actually has a lot of synergy with Zenith Seeker is global discard and hand hate, especially if we ourselves are running a reanimation package. I don't yet know exactly what this looks like but cards like Sire of Insanity are what I'm talking about.
Thematically? Is that the word you're intending here? Because I'm not building to a deck theme, I'm building to function as efficiency. Constraining yourself to a theme is to limit the maximum efficiency with which you allow yourself to brew with, it's a creative boundary, an imaginary restriction one places on themselves to create an artificial cap on their potential power level. Now, if we're talking function, then I recognize the commander has an effect that triggers on entering the battlefield, but I don't think that means we should over-commit to the idea of this. Panharmonicon may be a great card, but how many other ETB effects are we amplifying? Now, how many ETB effects are we amplifying that have a real effect in multiples (Dragon Tempest is a great card, but it also doesn't do anything in multiples, unless you played a dragon...which is our smallest creature type count). Of course it's nice to be able to use our commander's effect multiple times though, especially without paying commander tax, and to that end I believe Eldrazi Displacer is the stronger choice (which is in the deck).
That said, I did miss Diabolic Intent, I knew I was missing a tutour, and that's the one. I can't really play this one in the original since I care about keeping her alive, but this one is fine. That belongs here.
There's a case to be made for a couple more reanimation cards, or maybe at least just Victimize to add to the already robust suite. I'm not sure Ravenous Demon has a home though as it's only good with Kaalia online and otherwise locks us out of keeping her. This sounds win-more, but I won't throw the stamp down on that distinction yet.
WGD is a combo. Surely, but is a combo really good with a deck if it doesn't do anything otherwise for the deck? WGD itself doesn't even work well with the commander's ability since we never want to draw it, meaning we're on a strict Entomb/Buried Alive/Faithless Looting plan. This was the conclusion I came to when I added this combo into the Contract version of original Kaalia; it was clunky, and unsynergistic to the rest of the deck's game plan, even with the few cards it took to assemble. That's why I've walked away from my attempts at shoehorning it in to everything.
If we must pursue such an avenue, I'd wager a guess that Torment of Hailfire is stronger by it's virtue of being one card and it gives us a strong post-combat play that in future games, will make opponents think twice about how they block in the late game (especially about what appears to be "questionable attacks" on our part). This serves it's intended purpose, but additionally serves the purpose of acting as a bluff mechanism "do we have it or not?"
Now, to the "disruption stones" (wow, I like that nickname). Are we opposed to them because of the social pariah casuals will attempt to turn us into for playing these "unfun" cards, or are we legitimately at odds using these versus our strategy? Is it because these cards have recently spiked in price (static orb for example hitting over $20 USD) Because what I see is a deck that deceptively swims under the radar with an under-the-curve average cmc by comparison to the a-typical commander deck (a meta feature of my brews, "next level building" I call it) you expect to encounter. This has the effect of being able to squeeze more mana economy out of your deck under a disruption stone than the rest of the table while also being not as phased by an opposing disruption stone. At the very least, we're already breaking the symmetry of Static Orb just by our commander having vigilance (and we completely blow it out with Angelic Field Marshal). I don't agree with the idea that these cards aren't one card combos (winter orb too, we play enough rocks that, in conjunction with our lower average curve, that we can still function reasonably well while they are struggling to cope with it).
Bolas's Citadel: I find this is the new shiny toy that everyone wants to throw into every list but...why? We have a CA generator in the CZ. We are paying six up front and won't make that back until casting, on average, two threats. The third threat will usually be where we've made our investment back, and that's going to cost us about eleven to twelve life, three cards deep. This is all assuming we don't get stuck with a land clump on top (we still can't play extra lands through this), which would make for this wierd awkward moment.
Land Tax: So, I don't play this to hit my land drops, so much as Scroll Rack fodder. And since we don't over-rely on lands on the board, we can generally rely on hitting our triggers to keep the extra cards coming. Similarly, your perseption of my justification to Crucible isn't entirely correct. It's not becaus eof MLD or discard, it's because I've built a deck with ten dang fetchlands, two canopy lands, and two wasteland effects. I love to crucifetch, and there is a lot of virtual CA in the mana base. I hope the way I brew decks is becoming ever-so-apparent by this point.
Dragon Tempest: This is a good point, and I think it'd be worth including, although I'm thinking I prefer Anger and an Entomb...which would also bring me to Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (I already have nameless inversion and crib swap as removals Kaalia can fetch, and Haakon lets me machine gun key threats)...
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: You'd think so, but on his own, Skithiryx is still a three turn clock. And it doesn't work with the rest of our clock...I think he's a swing and a miss here, to my estimation.
Can I move all this discussion over to @mtgnexus where I've established the primer too? Based on the downtime of this site this m.k morning, I've got a few doubts as to the validity of this site's staying power.
I'll be replying here (there's a lot to cover here and I've similarly got a lot of thoughts), but can I move all this discussion over to @mtgnexus where I've established the primer too? Based on the downtime of this site this m.k morning, I've got a few doubts as to the validity of this site's staying power.
The 2 for 1 of Herald of Torment's bestow effect. He makes something huge then when you wipe or otherwise spot kill the creature it's enchanting, you still have a 3/3 flyer which demands another answer. Or on it's own, it's still a body you can easily cast on it's own, which is a pretty great spot to have.
I think Rakdos 2.0 is a bit of a trap, he plays better as commander than in the ninety-nine. When I tested him out in original Kaalia where I could get around his cast requirement, I found him underwhelming as he does not reduce coloured costs. At best, yes, I did resolve a Razaketh for just BBB, but that felt like his real hard ceiling. He's much stronger when he's deploying Wurmcoils and Ulamogs for 0. Without him, I'm still going to struggle to get to my six plus drops, and that's why I always aire on the side of caution with respect and care to my mana curve.
We have eight legendaries that would turn on Mox Amber, and seven of those eight are four plus cmc. I don't believe this to be consistent enough at all to justify that mox.
How effective are Malfegor, Butcher of the Horde, Herald of Torment, and Master of the Feast? Malfy I can see its application via Kaalia's fetch, would Master of the Feast be a little to convenient for opponents? The other two are cheap beaters, I wonder if that's enough to warrant a spot.
Unlike in the original Kaalia, needing to cast our spells means I have to make concessions. Mana curve matters. But I need a clock too. So some high power low cost cards are a necessity. Yeah, I could opt for a Persecutor but at the four, I wanted something lower end and a three cmc 5/5 (or five drop aura that leaves a creature behind in a wrath) are better deals. Butcher is a good sac outlet that is a four mana 5 power which is doing more than Persecutor as well. I feel like having a CA generating commander gives me enough gas to utilize Malfegor as a wrath body that's fetchable (and two types so it can be my dragon or demon), just as I utilize Sunblast Angel. And the fact these all super benefit from my Heartless Summoning is just gravy.
I really like what you are doing here 3drinks! I'm writing up a more in depth response, but I just wanted to point out that Embodiment of Agonies could be a really efficient beater. It definitely fits more into my list because of the higher density of discard effects, but even for yours I think I would choose it over some of the other beaters you have. Herald of Torment particularly feels like it doesn't have enough impact. The combination of flying and deathtouch stand out as being strong. Reminiscent of Vampire Nighthawk.
I think the jury is still out on Embodiment of Agonies. He's a hard card to gauge in that he has a low floor and high ceiling, sorta like evaluating proliferate as a mechanic. I think it makes more sense in a deck where you're regularly dumping cards in the Yard, and this deck is not that, although Alesha would play it I'm sure. What deathtouch are you seeing? it's +3/+3, flying, and the one life loss. Being able to 2 for 1 your opponent is a great trick to have which is something the other choices can't boast of.
There's definitely a few walkers I'd love to support. Veil Liliana, Elspeth, Ajani of course, and Nahiri. I could find a justification for Tibalt too, but only if we add Heart of Kiran.
I made a couple of "stealth edits" too. Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap over Bolt and Terminate, since they are removal that Kaalia can fetch us.
To add onto this and the living end theory I mentioned earlier, you can set that up thanks to our scroll rack that keeps it hidden until we want it, we can cast it on call with throes of chaos...as well, we're also situated to use restore balance the same way......
Unlike an enchantment or artifact hate piece or a creature hate-bear, there is no efficient removal for them other than attacking
uwotm8? There's tons of efficient removal for planeswalkers and it's not even limited to cards that say "destroy target planeswalker'. Smh. Just wut, I can't even with this narrow line of thought.
An oldie but a goodie. Whether you throw Sad Robot on it (one of it's better interactions), or you go for broke and somehow stick an Ashen Rider on it. Gravy.
And with Scroll Rack, pay 1 to retrieve all the creatures if you need them this turn. I like how this new Kaalia is making Mardu tricky.
Right? Like I said in the primer stub, this deck has all the tricks that made me want to build rebel yell, without the whole "playing trashy rebel cards" lol. Think we've got a keeper here. See, mortuary is so hard to use because you just softlock yourself out of your draws but even with just the commander, you still can blow through six deep off the top every time, which removes the one weakness to this card.
I thank you for the opportunity to carry on the legacy of this thread, a forum game and mtgsally tradition that has become one of the more looked forward to games to-date. And, thank you for allowing the opportunity to hand this tradition over to my hands.
Hard to say, earlier it was down with an error unable to load, but the error only seemed to be on the forums. It persisted for a few hours so...maybe borrowed time?
Perhaps I'm too old school with respect to card advantage theory. A 2 for is a 2 for is a 2 for, demanding a removal after being wrathed in order for your board to be fully contained is a big deal. I don't really know what else to say, if making one of your cards worth two of your opponent's isn't "strong enough", whatever that means, then that might be an issue of higher than is reasonable expectations. Not everything can be Villis, Broker of Blood in power level now...
I think I see the issue though. You're looking into a magical christmasland experience where we play out our hand every turn and then refill every turn. I do not think this strategy is reasonable, nor is it supportable. The better (re: simpler) plan is less likely to botch when all you have to do is keep playing a threat or interaction and not run out of resources. There's a lot of ways to accumulate the value to climb into the mid to late game and even to protect yourself, than to dump your hand. Just because you can cast more threats, doesn't mean you need to. Angels, Demons, and Dragons are powerful creatures, how many do you need to deploy to the board? Are you trying to end the game in one swing, because if so you're better off with a combo or some type of one-shot application, rather than playing a bunch of threats.
I don't think we can justify a card based on the existence of one other card, and call it ramp when it needs that card in order to perform it's role. That's the definition of a win-more card, and you'd be far better off with Mox Diamond (we need a higher land count), or Chrome Mox (which I think could slot in, albeit while conflicting with the rest of our other rocks). Mox Opal demands more artifact tribute, though goes in the same style of deck as Mox Tantalite (welder decks, which typically show up in Opal decks as cross synergy). With Mox AMber here, we're getting a mana off a three drop, four drop, and five drop which is the same range at which you'd be playing high end rocks that provide 2+ mana... Does this make sense?
Thematically? Is that the word you're intending here? Because I'm not building to a deck theme, I'm building to function as efficiency. Constraining yourself to a theme is to limit the maximum efficiency with which you allow yourself to brew with, it's a creative boundary, an imaginary restriction one places on themselves to create an artificial cap on their potential power level. Now, if we're talking function, then I recognize the commander has an effect that triggers on entering the battlefield, but I don't think that means we should over-commit to the idea of this. Panharmonicon may be a great card, but how many other ETB effects are we amplifying? Now, how many ETB effects are we amplifying that have a real effect in multiples (Dragon Tempest is a great card, but it also doesn't do anything in multiples, unless you played a dragon...which is our smallest creature type count). Of course it's nice to be able to use our commander's effect multiple times though, especially without paying commander tax, and to that end I believe Eldrazi Displacer is the stronger choice (which is in the deck).
That said, I did miss Diabolic Intent, I knew I was missing a tutour, and that's the one. I can't really play this one in the original since I care about keeping her alive, but this one is fine. That belongs here.
There's a case to be made for a couple more reanimation cards, or maybe at least just Victimize to add to the already robust suite. I'm not sure Ravenous Demon has a home though as it's only good with Kaalia online and otherwise locks us out of keeping her. This sounds win-more, but I won't throw the stamp down on that distinction yet.
WGD is a combo. Surely, but is a combo really good with a deck if it doesn't do anything otherwise for the deck? WGD itself doesn't even work well with the commander's ability since we never want to draw it, meaning we're on a strict Entomb/Buried Alive/Faithless Looting plan. This was the conclusion I came to when I added this combo into the Contract version of original Kaalia; it was clunky, and unsynergistic to the rest of the deck's game plan, even with the few cards it took to assemble. That's why I've walked away from my attempts at shoehorning it in to everything.
If we must pursue such an avenue, I'd wager a guess that Torment of Hailfire is stronger by it's virtue of being one card and it gives us a strong post-combat play that in future games, will make opponents think twice about how they block in the late game (especially about what appears to be "questionable attacks" on our part). This serves it's intended purpose, but additionally serves the purpose of acting as a bluff mechanism "do we have it or not?"
Now, to the "disruption stones" (wow, I like that nickname). Are we opposed to them because of the social pariah casuals will attempt to turn us into for playing these "unfun" cards, or are we legitimately at odds using these versus our strategy? Is it because these cards have recently spiked in price (static orb for example hitting over $20 USD) Because what I see is a deck that deceptively swims under the radar with an under-the-curve average cmc by comparison to the a-typical commander deck (a meta feature of my brews, "next level building" I call it) you expect to encounter. This has the effect of being able to squeeze more mana economy out of your deck under a disruption stone than the rest of the table while also being not as phased by an opposing disruption stone. At the very least, we're already breaking the symmetry of Static Orb just by our commander having vigilance (and we completely blow it out with Angelic Field Marshal). I don't agree with the idea that these cards aren't one card combos (winter orb too, we play enough rocks that, in conjunction with our lower average curve, that we can still function reasonably well while they are struggling to cope with it).
Sire of Insanity belongs in this deck. Full stop, I can't believe I left him out. He's perfect, especially under our Heartless Summoning.
Bolas's Citadel: I find this is the new shiny toy that everyone wants to throw into every list but...why? We have a CA generator in the CZ. We are paying six up front and won't make that back until casting, on average, two threats. The third threat will usually be where we've made our investment back, and that's going to cost us about eleven to twelve life, three cards deep. This is all assuming we don't get stuck with a land clump on top (we still can't play extra lands through this), which would make for this wierd awkward moment.
Land Tax: So, I don't play this to hit my land drops, so much as Scroll Rack fodder. And since we don't over-rely on lands on the board, we can generally rely on hitting our triggers to keep the extra cards coming. Similarly, your perseption of my justification to Crucible isn't entirely correct. It's not becaus eof MLD or discard, it's because I've built a deck with ten dang fetchlands, two canopy lands, and two wasteland effects. I love to crucifetch, and there is a lot of virtual CA in the mana base. I hope the way I brew decks is becoming ever-so-apparent by this point.
Dragon Tempest: This is a good point, and I think it'd be worth including, although I'm thinking I prefer Anger and an Entomb...which would also bring me to Haakon, Stromgald Scourge (I already have nameless inversion and crib swap as removals Kaalia can fetch, and Haakon lets me machine gun key threats)...
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: You'd think so, but on his own, Skithiryx is still a three turn clock. And it doesn't work with the rest of our clock...I think he's a swing and a miss here, to my estimation.
https://www.mtgnexus.com/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=318
I think Rakdos 2.0 is a bit of a trap, he plays better as commander than in the ninety-nine. When I tested him out in original Kaalia where I could get around his cast requirement, I found him underwhelming as he does not reduce coloured costs. At best, yes, I did resolve a Razaketh for just BBB, but that felt like his real hard ceiling. He's much stronger when he's deploying Wurmcoils and Ulamogs for 0. Without him, I'm still going to struggle to get to my six plus drops, and that's why I always aire on the side of caution with respect and care to my mana curve.
We have eight legendaries that would turn on Mox Amber, and seven of those eight are four plus cmc. I don't believe this to be consistent enough at all to justify that mox.
Unlike in the original Kaalia, needing to cast our spells means I have to make concessions. Mana curve matters. But I need a clock too. So some high power low cost cards are a necessity. Yeah, I could opt for a Persecutor but at the four, I wanted something lower end and a three cmc 5/5 (or five drop aura that leaves a creature behind in a wrath) are better deals. Butcher is a good sac outlet that is a four mana 5 power which is doing more than Persecutor as well. I feel like having a CA generating commander gives me enough gas to utilize Malfegor as a wrath body that's fetchable (and two types so it can be my dragon or demon), just as I utilize Sunblast Angel. And the fact these all super benefit from my Heartless Summoning is just gravy.
I think the jury is still out on Embodiment of Agonies. He's a hard card to gauge in that he has a low floor and high ceiling, sorta like evaluating proliferate as a mechanic. I think it makes more sense in a deck where you're regularly dumping cards in the Yard, and this deck is not that, although Alesha would play it I'm sure. What deathtouch are you seeing? it's +3/+3, flying, and the one life loss. Being able to 2 for 1 your opponent is a great trick to have which is something the other choices can't boast of.
I made a couple of "stealth edits" too. Nameless Inversion and Crib Swap over Bolt and Terminate, since they are removal that Kaalia can fetch us.
I used to fit this thing into every deck based off that one time I curved Mycoloth into this. That was the only time it was truly remarkable.
To add onto this and the living end theory I mentioned earlier, you can set that up thanks to our scroll rack that keeps it hidden until we want it, we can cast it on call with throes of chaos...as well, we're also situated to use restore balance the same way......
uwotm8? There's tons of efficient removal for planeswalkers and it's not even limited to cards that say "destroy target planeswalker'. Smh. Just wut, I can't even with this narrow line of thought.
An oldie but a goodie. Whether you throw Sad Robot on it (one of it's better interactions), or you go for broke and somehow stick an Ashen Rider on it. Gravy.
Right? Like I said in the primer stub, this deck has all the tricks that made me want to build rebel yell, without the whole "playing trashy rebel cards" lol. Think we've got a keeper here. See, mortuary is so hard to use because you just softlock yourself out of your draws but even with just the commander, you still can blow through six deep off the top every time, which removes the one weakness to this card.
I was kidding, lol. I'm liking the look though. A bit sad I'm gonna need to reconfigure my entire large primer but it is what it is.