Still on my phone for the moment. I really feel like writing a quite lengthy dissertation on how scummy what Osie (ostensibly) was doing was. But I’m not sure if it is worth the words.
My other option seems to be pivoting to examine Proph and whether his completely unjustified faith in Osie could possibly be coming from a genuine Town mindset.
Of course it's Osie, of course it is.
@Proph we have different definitions of LHF if u think Osie is that.
I would prefer not to be wrong on someone who is actually playing the game, but both Axel and DV have pointed out things not to like. And if this was town!Osie, I think he'd be more frustrated?
Not if the game is going exactly as planned.
and this? I was prepared to really get into the weeds on this remark. B/C on its face it seems like complete bull. How can I do that now?
That just completely kneecaps everything I was doing. His total lack of engagement with me and hand-waving my issues was something he was going to have to address or get voted out. How is GJ supposed to address that?
Re-reading DV's point-by-point response to Crossbell in #119, and...it's fine?
There's some irony here in that DV accuses Crossbell (who I kind of just want to call Osie from here on out, but not sure if I should) of being agenda driven in his analysis of players, but this post looks very agenda driven itself. He makes some of the same points I did, somewhat slightly differently.
121 and 122 stand out a little because here is Crossbell asking Proph to give him more (more "depth" to his thoughts on certain players) and Proph completely shrugging him off with (paraphrase) "I have no thoughts." Stands out to me because of how buddy-buddy they are. I would have thought that if Crossbell was really interested in Proph's thoughts, or in prodding him for reactions, or whatever to get a read, this should have prompted something more. But I don't think it ever did.
DoTA maybe makes a fair point in #139 when he observes that Crossbell doesn't really seem to be trying to engage with me (Axel) just making his case based on a feeling/toneread he has that my posts seem "awkward." Crossbell seems very quick to dismiss other opinions that do not seem to share that feeling though. And his explanation for not interacting with me more is that I haven't "been around." Of course, I've been here every day. And I do answer questions.
Anyways Crossbell is trying way to hard to sort people off of really minor things IMO, it reads as scummy to me because its agenda driven when it is this weak, town shouldn't be pushing like this early on.
And scum wants the early attention that forcing a readlist in the first 100 posts gives... why?
Except he seems to have answered his own question, just a few post earlier:
Preliminary thoughts are that the wall feels like it's trying to roleplay/emulate me, but I also find objectively speaking that posting a huge read wall when most players (Cantrip, KJ, DoTA, Axel) have not really sat down and played the game yet is.. not the best look?
I'm all for more discussion, but the wallpost feels intentionally played up - which is easily explained by the fact that the account holder behind the Crossbell alt is deliberately trying to emulate my posting style. Blegh.
Nah, the trying to draw blood from a stone with an early readwall is entirely me playing in a standard manner for me. (As either alignment.)
Can't really argue that your not scum because of something you explicitly said you would do as scum.
The one page an evening thing review isn't really keeping up with the thread very well. But I've been so tired this week, I just don't feel like doing more. I might start skipping around.
Not really sure why Wisp likes Axel for claiming to be town in his post 13, when Crossbell literally did a similar thing in post 11.
(townsplaining gets old real quick)
Already mentioned, but what I said and what Crossbell said were really different things, and said in different ways. I have a hard time seeing you draw this parallel in your mind.
And then there was Crossbell's big review post. TLDR: I do not like this post.
Crossbell - Town. Relaxed and focused when present. Joking around a very small amount early on, but quickly sorting.
Feels slightly weird to me, joke notwithstanding. When I do these, I will often list myself at the top, but I don't think I've ever done a joke analysis of myself.
Prophylaxis - Townlean. I like their response to my existence and I like how they took things seriously even only 20ish posts in. Post #30 is a good look for them; I like the reasoning behind calling out Wisp and DV, and I agree that Wisp seemed to be stumbling early on. #39 is a good response to DV and Wisp. Pushing for more from both. I particularly like the last paragraph. My thanks for reminding me and Grapefruit to elaborate in #71. Post #77 is a good way to joke while pushing Wisp to do more. Their read on me is likely based on them thinking that I'm a mutual friend of ours, but it's not awful. Post #88 is a good callout. Townread.
And here I just disagree. The conclusion of Proph in post #30 and his vote for Wisp was on the basis that Wisp feels "incredibly clumsy" to him, and I don't see that. So when I see people agreeing with something I don't agree with, again the
Grapefruit21 - I generally don't like second votes in RVS but ehh, it's mostly NAI. The Wisp question is kinda random; sorta looks like busywork. The Proph question is okay. While I don't agree with the wording of Post #66, I think I like the flow/point of it overall? Post #69 just is unexplained. Out of nowhere. I like the thought process in Post #73 even though it's wrong. Mild Townlean.
I have a mild Town read on GF also, but I don't know why they even bring up the "second vote in RVS" thing only to dismiss it. This post reads more like a neutral read, with the calling the Wisp question "random," another Proph question "okay," and another post "unexplained," but ends with Town-lean based on liking the overall "flow/point" of another post (despite disagreeing with the wording) and then liking the "thought process" of a final post (even though it's wrong). All those qualifications really call this read into question for me.
Wisp - Comes in a little social, looking okay. But their first mechanical post is talking about death-tunneling Proph if Wisp is alive. Which, while jokey, is awkward and could be scum trying to derpclear. They responded jokingly to me prodding out about a possible slip with a stiffness and odd confidence I don't like. And then they have a strange follow-up of semi-politely approaching me as if they want to me to talk to them but don't necessarily care about my answer since if I don't shift to a townread on them, they can just kill me. Wisp then discusses Proph as an authority on them. Post #29 feels like they're being cheeky to direct attention away from scumtells. And then they invalidate their only implied reads with Post #32. I agree wholeheartedly with Proph in #33, that Wisp is playing reactively. Post #35 feels like Wisp is trying to fall back on people not taking them seriously but that doesn't get to happen any more. #36 and #37 are stilted AF but that may just be #TooWispyToBeAWolf. Their responses in #55 and #56 ] to my posts are very handwavey. A slight wolfping there. Readlist is... very unexplained. Two hours later to expand on reads, and still doesn't really expand on some of them? Do not like at all. Despite my misgivings, I think I'm overall at very slightly above null right now mostly because #TooWispyToBeAWolf, but I want to see them get energetic for a bit.
This is another post where, like, everything they are saying about Wisp is bad. Everything seems to be reason for suspicion. But they end on "slightly above null" for no discernable reason at all. This is just not my town mind-set. If I'm town-leaning someone, I don't go on and on about the things I don't like about them. It's irrational.
Killjoy - Very slightly above null. #41 isn't bad, it just isn't enough. The focus on the Axel/DoTA potential world is not bad. Keeping an eye on that for later.
Killjoy had exactly 1 post with any game content in it to this point. Now, I also kind of liked that 1 post, but for apparently different reasons. Killjoy was NOT, as far as I can tell, floating an "Axel/DoTA are potential scum-buddies" theory. He was specifically saying that the fact I left Timetwister (DoTA) off my list of Blue cards to vote probably means we WOULDN'T be scum-buddies together. So, I don't even know what Crossbell is talking about here.
Cantripmancer - Hasn't posted because it's the weekend. Null.
Okay
DoTArchon - Asks Wisp a question for their first real bit of content. Okay. Hasn't really posted since. Null to slight scumlean.
Don't know why this is even a slight scumlean unless what they're really just saying is "DoTA hasn't posted enough for me and I suspect lurking scum." Without quite saying that. Because it would be silly to accuse someone of lurking less than 100 posts into the game.
DV - Starts out with Post #28. A linking conditional that is particularly easy to make as mafia. Then they come along with Post #34 and are hard defending Wisp partially as an OMGUS over low pressure. Their read on the Proph push on Wisp seems to take the push much more seriously than it is. They then come along with Post #62, not-very-explained thoughts on my posts. Post #79 I could see being an honest mistake, but I also feel like they're getting away with not doing much since people are treading on eggshells around them to avoid them blowing up. "Don't worry about me not being careful on reading the game." Eww. Post #93 and it's follow-up in #95 are the first real-looking and solid thoughts I've seen from DV all game. I kinda like it, but it doesn't make up for the previous posts. I'mma leave DV at a scumlean for now.
DV mentioned already, but to characterize what DV did as "hard defending" Wisp is such a stretch that it really kind of boggles the mind. DV forgetting who he was voting for is possibly a legit concern, but that's about all I see there.
Axelrod - Needed to explain their RVS vote. Feels generally a bit awkward; possibly their first scumgame in a while? The only talk in the game they really do after that point is still playing defense, it seems. Not a good start for one of the better town players on the site. Scumread.
To quote Luke Skywalker: Amazing, every word of what you just said was wrong.
Unvote
Vote: Crossbell
This may be as good as it gets for D1 (caveat, I have 5 more pages to review, but this is pretty bad.)
DV - might still be a wolf, but I am mind-melding with his thought process, I think he is decent enough at pushing an agenda, but I don't think this is how he approaches it as a wolf. Overall I think he is veeeeery likely to be town
Axel - gets to be below DV for claiming to be town in his post, I like those things, fight me.
Grape - might be pocketing me, but I like his posts overall
Everyone else - don't really care yet?
Proph - I'm not even thinking about his meta, I think its an unfun way to interact with Proph. I do very much dislike his handling of me, and pieces of that wall post, that include calling me out for not placing my vote, when that statement was should not have really led to that conclusion, unless you are trying to push malicious thoughts? He definitely needs to like blow me away today, for me to change this, possibly?
Crossbell - Something, something, about straddling the line of like knowing who we are, but also playing like he doesn't know who we are, kinda rubs me the wrong way. I think Grape explains it a lot better
24 hours in, but I would be baffled if there is not a wolf between proph and fake proph.
Feels like I hate all the people that hate me, guess that's how the cookie crumbles
So, this is maybe particular to me, but I don't think that scum-Last says this about me here. There's really not any benefit to him in doing so. Why "town read" me when he certainly doesn't have to, and for not even a very good reason? Yah, it's flimsy and Last is prone to flip on a dime, so, it is also way premature for me to town-read him for this, but it feels like something more likely to come from a Town-Last. To just put this gut read out there and not care what it looks like. Whereas scum-Last might be a little more hesitant to town read me early for no real reason.
Plus, as a bonus, the rest of this post is actually okay too.
Know this is par for the course for their playstyle, but would appreciate if Crossbell would explain their mindset a little more, rather than list out town/scumreads with scant explanation.
Grapefruit, talk to me about how your read on Crossbell has developed over these past 24 hours?
I wouldn't say it's developed so much as my initial impression has been negative. Didn't like the mafia slip question towards you at all (looked like asking for permission to push) and the town read on you seemed flimsy. I also find their presence to be a bit jaggedy and uneven. A weird mixture of relaxation and discomfort that I can't quite figure out. Knowing they're familiar with everyone here makes me lean towards the discomfort I'm picking up on be from rolling scum but it's a minor thing.
TLDR a couple reads that feel like they skipped a step and weird tone stuff I'm putting way too much stock into.
I'm sure they explain this later (maybe it's just the "meta" post), but, given that I had posted absolutely nothing to this point that could possibly have merited a "serious" vote, this does make me raise the eyebrow a bit.
I am continually amazed/amused by people who continually remark about how I don't seem to be doing anything early on D1 (or on D1 period) in a mafia game and seem to think this is suspect, and yet, I think literally every single person in this game has seen me do it, so, like, really people? And I already know it's going to be doubly bad in this game because there are no claims and (historically, at least) that's easily 50% of how I suss people out.
I mean, it is entirely possible that if I drew a scum card for the first time in forever, I might try to coast on "Axel never does anything on D1 anyway" for a while, but the reason I would hypothetically be doing that would be because I do it as Town. It would be the definition of not alignment indicative, at least for me.
This doesn't mean I'm just going to shrug my shoulders D1. On the contrary, I really want to get it right, but it's also going to be really hard from where I'm sitting. I have exactly one hard data point - me Town. So anyone who expresses suspicions of me is (1) innocently mistaken, or (2) scum. I may be able to garner a few impressions there. If I can get a hard-Town read on someone else, I might get another data point, but I'm pretty unlikely to get a read like that that I really feel confident about this early.
All that said, I'm going to go re-read some stuff, and see if anything sticks out.
I understand what you're saying here (and I am familiar with your meta, hence why I did not join Crossbell on their suspicion of you). However, you have to keep in mind that this is a nine player game with six day deadlines, and we do not have the benefit of the game setup to bail us out. On the contrary, actually - this setup is quite scumsided, and I would not be surprised if they end up winning in the end here.
If this was a 12 player game with two week deadlines, then sure. But given that we need to solve for every player in the game through the Day phase, and keeping in mind the short deadline length, you need to kick it into gear earlier than usual if you're town here. (If you're scum, then go ahead and continue slanking )
Two things:
(1) It's well and good to say "this game is smaller and has shorter deadlines than other games, therefore, you can't afford to play as laid back on D1 as you usually do." I can understand, and even agree with that. You understand, however, that this is something entirely different from saying "he's not playing like his "usual" meta (ignoring for the moment how true or not that might be). It's almost the opposite. So, which thing are you currently being suspicious of me for? Not acting like myself, or not kicking it into gear fast enough?
(2) You say here you didn't "join" Crossbell in their suspicion of me, but right after Crossbell's big "meta" post, what you said was:
I see where Crossbell is coming from wrt Axel but again, I still want to take the "wait and see" approach, given what I know about Axel's meta.
What did you mean, "I see where Crossbell is coming from" if you didn't agree with it?
And then, when Crossbell denied being Osie, did you think he was lying (but still Town?) Or did you believe him and become unsure who he was?
My other option seems to be pivoting to examine Proph and whether his completely unjustified faith in Osie could possibly be coming from a genuine Town mindset.
/rant
That just completely kneecaps everything I was doing. His total lack of engagement with me and hand-waving my issues was something he was going to have to address or get voted out. How is GJ supposed to address that?
There's some irony here in that DV accuses Crossbell (who I kind of just want to call Osie from here on out, but not sure if I should) of being agenda driven in his analysis of players, but this post looks very agenda driven itself. He makes some of the same points I did, somewhat slightly differently.
121 and 122 stand out a little because here is Crossbell asking Proph to give him more (more "depth" to his thoughts on certain players) and Proph completely shrugging him off with (paraphrase) "I have no thoughts." Stands out to me because of how buddy-buddy they are. I would have thought that if Crossbell was really interested in Proph's thoughts, or in prodding him for reactions, or whatever to get a read, this should have prompted something more. But I don't think it ever did.
DoTA maybe makes a fair point in #139 when he observes that Crossbell doesn't really seem to be trying to engage with me (Axel) just making his case based on a feeling/toneread he has that my posts seem "awkward." Crossbell seems very quick to dismiss other opinions that do not seem to share that feeling though. And his explanation for not interacting with me more is that I haven't "been around." Of course, I've been here every day. And I do answer questions.
Then Crossbell says this:
Except he seems to have answered his own question, just a few post earlier:Can't really argue that your not scum because of something you explicitly said you would do as scum.
I mean, nothing is ever that easy. But right not it really just seems like that. Kind of a lot.
I mean, this is a mafia game, but the mafia are the ones who are supposed to be doing the lying.
I am in favor of a deadline extension
/phone post
And then there was Crossbell's big review post. TLDR: I do not like this post.
Here's the piece by piece:
Feels slightly weird to me, joke notwithstanding. When I do these, I will often list myself at the top, but I don't think I've ever done a joke analysis of myself.
And here I just disagree. The conclusion of Proph in post #30 and his vote for Wisp was on the basis that Wisp feels "incredibly clumsy" to him, and I don't see that. So when I see people agreeing with something I don't agree with, again the
I have a mild Town read on GF also, but I don't know why they even bring up the "second vote in RVS" thing only to dismiss it. This post reads more like a neutral read, with the calling the Wisp question "random," another Proph question "okay," and another post "unexplained," but ends with Town-lean based on liking the overall "flow/point" of another post (despite disagreeing with the wording) and then liking the "thought process" of a final post (even though it's wrong). All those qualifications really call this read into question for me.
This is another post where, like, everything they are saying about Wisp is bad. Everything seems to be reason for suspicion. But they end on "slightly above null" for no discernable reason at all. This is just not my town mind-set. If I'm town-leaning someone, I don't go on and on about the things I don't like about them. It's irrational.
Killjoy had exactly 1 post with any game content in it to this point. Now, I also kind of liked that 1 post, but for apparently different reasons. Killjoy was NOT, as far as I can tell, floating an "Axel/DoTA are potential scum-buddies" theory. He was specifically saying that the fact I left Timetwister (DoTA) off my list of Blue cards to vote probably means we WOULDN'T be scum-buddies together. So, I don't even know what Crossbell is talking about here.
Okay
Don't know why this is even a slight scumlean unless what they're really just saying is "DoTA hasn't posted enough for me and I suspect lurking scum." Without quite saying that. Because it would be silly to accuse someone of lurking less than 100 posts into the game.
DV mentioned already, but to characterize what DV did as "hard defending" Wisp is such a stretch that it really kind of boggles the mind. DV forgetting who he was voting for is possibly a legit concern, but that's about all I see there.
To quote Luke Skywalker: Amazing, every word of what you just said was wrong.
Unvote
Vote: Crossbell
This may be as good as it gets for D1 (caveat, I have 5 more pages to review, but this is pretty bad.)
Plus, as a bonus, the rest of this post is actually okay too.
(1) It's well and good to say "this game is smaller and has shorter deadlines than other games, therefore, you can't afford to play as laid back on D1 as you usually do." I can understand, and even agree with that. You understand, however, that this is something entirely different from saying "he's not playing like his "usual" meta (ignoring for the moment how true or not that might be). It's almost the opposite. So, which thing are you currently being suspicious of me for? Not acting like myself, or not kicking it into gear fast enough?
(2) You say here you didn't "join" Crossbell in their suspicion of me, but right after Crossbell's big "meta" post, what you said was:
What did you mean, "I see where Crossbell is coming from" if you didn't agree with it?
And now I'm going to go do something else!
Townish! Wisp/KJ
Less! Proph
Anyone else who posted didn't merit a remark yet.