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  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    This is what Killjoy and Osie had to say about each other at the start of the day:
    Quote from Killjoy »
    I was sure Osie was scum but I'm doubting that too now.

    Quote from Osie »
    Feeling a little better about Killjoy right now after neighboring. Still not convinced that he isn't scum, but he could be.
    These are not the remarks of two guys who have been talking and decided to betray each other.

    Man, could KJ really have messed up that bad just now?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    If any one sees something that needs to be amended in the above post please let me know.
    DV and I were Ally/Ally last night.

    Quote from Killjoy »
    First, @Terry: Osie and I betrayed each other?
    As I expected but still.
    Did you guys discuss in your chat the fact you were going to be betraying each other?
    sidenote: reaching 5k posts....
    And you at 1000 all by yourself....

    I can't remember what else I meant to say here.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Quote from Phoenix-Fire »
    Does anyone believe that Iso/Az are scum/scum, and not just "it could be possible if I squint hard enough" but actually believe they are, and why?

    Does anyone believe they're both town, legitimately believe it, not just "it could be possible"? Why?

    @Iso/Az: have you guys ever been scum together before? How did you play it?

    I believe it is possible they are scum/scum and I do not have to squint particularly hard to see it.

    If they are Town/Town then this game is probably lost because we are so far off attacking each other it might not even be possible to recover. In that event the scum are probably the ones not saying much of anything.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Quote from Cythare »
    Real talk though, are we all claiming? I am still slogging through old posts but also trying to keep up with current events.

    You can claim Doctor if you want to. I would be okay with that.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Quote from tomsloger »
    Quote from Killjoy »
    Quote from tomsloger »
    Quote from Killjoy »
    @Tom: My thought on Jenna's claim wasn't a track on Pheonix, but a watch on DV. I assumed that's why she asked everyone. She had watched DV and saw someone target him.
    yes, but that post came after she claimed tracker
    I was reading on mobile at work. I didn't see that part. I only saw her asking everyone to claim if they targetted DV.
    so...you didnt see her claim a track on phoenix?
    why did you vote him?
    I feel like Tom could very possibly be onto something here. Killjoy is a nagging itch in the back of my head that I haven't had time to scratch.
    Quote from Azrael »
    And oh, by the way, I'm the doctor. Kill Iso first. vote: Iso *mic drop* Spectator thread, I'll see you soon.
    Really, Az?

    Problems with this: (1) Scum on ropes claim Doctor. (2) You claimed this like it clears you ("mic drop") when it clearly doesn't. Overstating the case. (3) Martyrdom. (4) This comes after most people have either already claimed or claimed that their roles aren't any good, improving the odds for a Doc. gambit.

    That said, not everyone has claimed, so a CC is/was still a real risk. You could have decided the benefit to scum, given your precarious situation, was worth it.

    Still, ima Unvote for now whilst I muse through it some more.

    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    also you already claimed doctor, so spill the rest of the beans, I wanna compare your claim with everyone elses...
    This echos my thought, so good on LW for whatever that's worth.
    Quote from Azrael »

    Role name Diana

    Flavor paraphrase about having murdered six people, no, miscount, actually six billion. (You know, nice, friendly sounding stuff.)

    Then my text goes on to say I'm actually very mild, non-violent person and my *searches for synonyms* hospital skills will help me live through this. (HA! Because being the doctor totally doesn't make you a lightning rod)

    Then some stuff about feeling a lot of pressure, not being adequate to meet the heavy demands on me, disliking myself because of that.

    Abilities are 3 BP, -2 to doc. Since a couple of days ago I debated about lying and saying I have an additional ability where I can burn myself out to block the kill, but *shrug*, probably not believable by either alignment and I think I got the scum pinned down anyways, so whatever happens next, feels less critical at the moment.
    Somewhat interesting how this parallels Jenna's claim. Not sure that - at 3 BP starting - I would have felt the urgent need to call out a warning that betraying you could result in your instant death in your first post of the game. Technically, yes? But you will always live as long as you make sure to Betray yourself, so, misleading?
    Quote from Iso »
    You guys really think we have 3 protective roles?

    What are you considering "protective" here?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Quote from Jenna Tolaria »
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    Quote from Iso »
    Quote from Kabazame »
    Phoenix's role is very convenient so I'm suspicious of it. I wasn't reading him as scum, but how everything went down with the track is not a good look.


    +1
    i mean if we can prove that Grapes full flip wasnt because of Pheonix, then we could probably catch him in a lie... But I am also not gunna wine myself into voting a very important role, if he isnt lying...
    This is a good point, someone must be responsible for the daytime information.
    Did you miss the part where this has been the standard operating procedure for Bur in what looks like virtually every game he's moderated. Having role reveal tied to one player's ability would seem to be the exception here.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    If you think I'm smart, do you think I would have done this as scum?
    I mean, even smart scum get caught out. Cops/Watchers/Trackers etc. When that happens, what do you do? Usually, you accuse your accuser of lying about you, yes?
    I was attempting to bait her into lying about me BECAUSE I KNEW SHE WAS LYING... and she was lying, so there's that too. The thing is, her lie was justified and made sense. If she decided to point a finger at me, I was going to unleash unholy fury on her and get the Lynch on scum. That match up is one I win (sorry Jenna) and I walk to bed to get NKed tonight (Yeah!).

    She was "lying" about being a Watcher when she was actually a Tracker. How does that lie impact anything about your reaction? You're not suggesting that if she had come out and said she tracked someone to DV and she now wanted everyone to admit/dent targeting him you would have seen her truthfullness? I don't see that.

    And the entire point of this questioning is: HOW DOES SCUM-JENNA WHO CLEARLY MUST HAVE SOME KIND OF SCUM-PLAN TO MAKE A CLAIM LIKE THAT DECIDE TO ABANDON SAID PLAN AND LIE ABOUT YOU BECAUSE OF YOUR BAITING HER? IN WHAT WORLD DOES THAT HAPPEN?

    Also, given you weren't counter-claiming her, how were you going to prove she was lying about you anyway? How were you going to win that fight? (putting aside you being okay about losing and trading 1-1. That happens regardless of who she accuses, yes?)
    Your entire attitude about this is bizarre.

    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Okay, maybe this was already discussed, and Terry denied it. Which puts me back to square one.
    But I didn't counter claim and I didn't think very highly of her play at the time. I only implied that I might counter claim, not once did I ever say I was counter claiming. I did this to ensure that she was being truthful. In my mind, I wanted to bait her into lying and saying that I visited DV, when I didn't, so I could 1 for 1 with her.

    How is a 1 for 1 with you any different from a 1 for 1 with whoever she was about to lie about? Why insert yourself at all?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    So, I just had an alternate thought about Terry.

    Man, are YOU the actual Watcher?

    I feel okay asking that just because if you're not scum I rather suspect the actual scum would have clued onto it a long time ago.

    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    It really isnt. Jenna was a top scumspect going into day 2, she started getting heat, and miraculously claimed to watch someone kill DV, who was one of her top suspects (plus headbutting with) going into night 1. Watchers don't watch their suspects. So how is it hard to believe I thought she was lying scum, so I wanted to test her claim. She passed. What seems dumb, is to think that scum (like you are implying I am), would go through all that and just be like.. nope I guess Jenna isn't lying.

    Terry, see, I think you're smart, and that's why I'm actually having a harder time with this than with (some other people's claims/play).

    You think Jenna is scum. Fine. DV also did and DV turned up dead last night. That's possibly a point in favor of your theory.
    Then Jenna claims that she Watched DV and knows who targeted him.

    From where I'm sitting, that's GOLD. That's a no lose situation. Scum-Jenna is clearly about to incriminate a Townie, which is at worst a 1-1 Town/Scum trade. Maybe she's about to bus a buddy in an attempt to gain some cred. and that's still good. All you need to do is sit back and wait. There is ZERO reason to start attacking her there. You just want to let it play out, yes?

    Except that's not what you did. You called BS right from the start. You acted like you were assuming she was going to say she saw you target DV. You adamantly refused to confirm/deny whether or not you did so, and then voted for her.

    Now, as I'm sure you can understand, this kind of reaction could have come from a scum with a guilty conscience. Someone who "knew" he was caught, and was trying to get out in front of the coming fight. That scenario isn't hard to see at all. It's kind of like the most obvious one.

    What's harder to parse is this idea that Town you - positive Jenna was scum - was attempting to bait her into lying about you. What for? How does that do anything? How does it, as you say, "test" her claim?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Here's my current philosophical issue. Been musing about this.

    The thing is, from what I've seen and what has been claimed, the BP abilities in this game are: (1) Over-costed, (2) Very Weak, or (3) Both.

    Take the "Detective." Our "Cop" started with 3 BP and needed to get to 6 (meaning 7) before he could even get off a single shot. DV said it himself, the chances of getting off multiple shots were minuscule in the extreme. So, in practice, he was like a (very bad) 1-shot Cop who couldn't even use his ability before Night 3 under the best case scenario.

    The "Reviver" role needed to get to 7 BP (meaning 8) before he could bring someone back. And even then, they all died together, meaning that any benefit we got from it could be wiped out immediately. That's an end-game ability or never kind of thing.

    Iso's claim is weak. Also needs to get to 7 (how many betrayals costing others BP would that be?), and then it's at best a 1 for 1, IF he shoots correctly since he has to die first.

    Osie's claim is weak. Pay one to chat? I mean, maybe, if you randomly got paired with someone you were still trying to figure out, you might get a stronger feel for their alignment doing this than you got during the day in the thread, but is it even worth a life point?

    LW's claim is weak. Obviously it's BP neutral, give one, someone gets one, but since you can give to scum, and you are always going down, if you're Town it's average negative for the Town overall.

    Phoenix's claim is neutral/bad. Basically, if what he says is true, we get information as long as he stays alive (information that in other Bur games was given for free) AND he mucks up Watcher/Tracker results by always going to the dead people.

    LnGrrr's role is...okay? At the very least he could use it immediately without risk of dying (4 -> 2). But it seems to me, it only gives useful information in the situation where you have scum/scum A/B pairs, or the scum getting paired with the NK choice, which is the only place someone might lie about whether they allied/betrayed. Seeing Az/Iso get paired up last night was an actual opportunity, I thought, but I can't say it's scummy for him not to have used it. Also QUESTION: I don't remember if you said whether your ability checks to see if your target is betraying just that night, or if your target has ever betrayed at any time the whole game? In any event, this ability also isn't getting used a whole lot.

    Shin's abilities aren't terrible. But they are also passive and he doesn't get to choose who he's paired up with. The actual BP ability (pay 4 to chose a different target) is super expensive for what it does - which is not even a Doc. protect or a RB that can stop a NK).

    Then we have DBS. Can do nothing at first. Must lose BP to use her abilities. Gaining a RB at 3 BP is decent. Having to go down to 1 BP to gain a vig. shot (and risk instant death to either being betrayed or to the mystery BP stealer) isn't great.

    I already claimed my ability was...not good. I'm going to leave it at that for now.

    Finally, there's Jenna. And here's my issue. This ability is good. Tracker is good. AND it apparently only costs 2 BP to use. Granted, if she uses it right away she's putting herself at risk of instant death to betrayal, but even so. The cost of this ability is out of whack with basically every other ability that has been claimed.

    Basically, one of these things is not like the others.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    I like (or at least can appreciate) what Tom is doing with the reactions to claim. I was going to look at those also, using an assumption that Jenna was Town and that therefore whoever did the NK would have probably felt like they were about to be exposed. Problem is that it doesn't take much competence from scum to avoid incriminating themselves there.

    Still, Terry's reaction was the most over the top and his comeback of "I was trying to trap Jenna into lying about me" would seem to be an extremely poor plan doomed to failure before it even began.
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Quote from tomsloger »
    One thing going that might be important:
    If phoenix didn't kill dv what was the actual killer doing while jenna was claiming watcher?
    the actual killer didn't say anything. which means we can focus our PoE on those who kept quiet.

    btw do you think me and Shin are aligned? I'm sorta confused about him atm
    So, why do you say that the actual killer didn't say anything? Are you just discounting the possibility that someone could have lied?
    Quote from Kabazame »
    @Phoenix, if multiple people die at night, would you be tracked to all of them? Also, when did you visit Grapefruit to get his role info? Or do you only visit the dead players, and if so would lynches still provide role info but not Night Kills?

    We could test this is Jenna tracks him again, DBS shoots someone, and there's a Mafia kill. In this case, Phoenix should be tracked to both, right? If not, he's lying. This would be hard to pull off depending on what powers scum has but if we can it should prove Phoenix one way or the other
    Except: (1) Jenna can't track again until she gets back up to at least 3 BP, and even then risks death to do so at 3. (2) DBS can't shoot anyone until she gets down to 1, and that won't be for at least 2 more days even if she gets betrayed every day. (3) IF Phoenix were scum, the plan is all out in the open anyway and the Mafia can defeat it rather easily. Did you think this through for more than 30 seconds?
    Quote from tomsloger »
    Quote from Shinichi »
    Quote from Shinichi »
    hmmm.. you halfassed your claim too. you actually said your ability cost 0 BP, but it changed into 4 BP. I guess this means you should fullclaim now. you're not being cooperative until you fullclaim. but I have better things to do with my vote than latch on you~
    I want to hear your other suspects outside of me. what do you think about Osie? I saw he's in your suspect list.


    Want me to full claim ill do it right now.

    Also no i clarified I misread my own role the same as ISO I thought the (4) was X shots I didnt realize the (4) was the cost of ab to use my ability.
    yes please. I wanna see your fullclaim.


    Phi-Town Manipulator

    I have 2 passives

    -If I betray someone they will lose their action tonight (I assume it kinda like an ability role block of sorts My role clarifies that this can't stop factional abilities so i guess thats refering to the fact I can't stop a factional kill.), this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
    -If I ally someone said person will be immune to any abilities that alter or hinder their actions tonight, this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics

    Phi Kick (4)-I can transfer the effect of my passives to a person of my choosing instead of it effecting my direct pair.
    the ally ability makes me think there's always an anti town role blocker of some kind.
    Idk if it's dawning, or a third role.
    Town/scum or town/scum/neutral or maybe town/town/scum
    No way the second part of shin's ability exists if the only other manipulative role is also town
    I guess I disagree with that? It would be a little bastardy, maybe?
    Quote from Jenna Tolaria »
    Quote from Shinichi »
    Quote from Jenna Tolaria »
    Quote from Shinichi »
    Quote from Lastwhisper »
    i mean i believe Pheonix's claim but i feel like as helpful as his passive is, he could still be mafia under it, but hell if im taking that chance, if he dies the only thing we will get from death flips is alignment, which then we wouldnt be able to spot fake claims


    Nothing honestly could stop him from being mafia, I mean this role is the perfect claim to give to a scum aligned player.
    In retrospect, would a moderator really need to step in right now, and not earlier during the night if the mafia team were plotting who targets who? If the mafia have to submit their actions separately and privately from each other, I can believe this. Otherwise Phoenix-Fire is unquestionably town from the error. This isn't how I feel a game should be played, but I think the downside of my lost reaction test is balanced out by Phoenix-Fire being in the clear. I'm willing to move on. Mistakes happen.


    WAit I am confused at what your trying to say here, can you clarifiy it better?
    Phoenix is town, otherwise this issue would have resolved itself last night. Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill given his special ability is a requirement to use.
    I do not follow why you say that Phoenix couldn't have performed the kill last night. I mean, hypothetically, what's the mechanical issue? You would have "tracked" him to DV just as you did, yes?
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Quote from Cythare »
    Jeez this game moves fast. I haven't read anything yet, and am worried the pace will be infinite catch-up, but I'll see what I can get through by speed-reviewing over the next couple days.

    I can't believe I don't play a game for 6 months, and when I finally decide to jump into one it turns into this....
    Posted in: Mafia
  • posted a message on Zero Escape Mafia - Day 2 - Unlucky Seven
    Quote from Shinichi »
    Quote from Axelrod »
    Quote from Shinichi »
    yes please. I wanna see your fullclaim.


    Phi-Town Manipulator

    I have 2 passives

    -If I betray someone they will lose their action tonight (I assume it kinda like an ability role block of sorts My role clarifies that this can't stop factional abilities so i guess thats refering to the fact I can't stop a factional kill.), this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics
    -If I ally someone said person will be immune to any abilities that alter or hinder their actions tonight, this happens on top of the Normal AB round mechanics

    Phi Kick (4)-I can transfer the effect of my passives to a person of my choosing instead of it effecting my direct pair.

    I really wish you had not claimed this.

    Just because DBS asked you? DBS??? Since when do you do what he says?


    why does it matter?

    Wait, your role specifies that you cannot stop "factional" abilities.

    And DBS, your role does not specify this?
    Posted in: Mafia
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