put it this way...'we', the common Magic players, just figured out the Splinter Twins / Entomber Exarch combo. These guys had this information months before we did and could have collected enough of the 'jank' Splinter Twins card that was $1.00 until the set was leaked. It is now a $9.00 card. This is simply one example. There are others (wanna bet they figured out several good decks for the upcoming tournaments already? (even though they can't play in them) Their friends can though, and have that distinct advantage...
Keep in mind, matignon was supposed to get the god book. So in that sense he has an advantage to get some early testing as I'm sure other popular writers like Patrick Chapin and LSV also get the god book. Its merely the sharing of this information WoTC frowns upon. Not sure if you were saying that its unfair they got them in general, but thats how i interpreted it. Despite I myself finding it unfair, WoTC didn't have a problem with it . a few people here seam to think
It was found that the New Phyrexia godbook was spoiled by french players Guillaume Matignon and Guillaume Wafo-Tapa as well as Martial Moreau and David Gauthier. Each were suspended from the DCI until October 2012, except Matignon who received a 3 year banning.
Really the argument is coming down to reactive solutions versus proactive solutions. Which ultimately might have to be a meta and personal choice and not an ideal that can be achieved.
Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy are both very solid proactive solutions to the problems that hamper our game plan, remove that removal or counter before they can use them.
Galvanic Blast is a reactive card that acts as either they last few points of damage or the sometimes very necessary removal to push lethal damage through.
All three cards have very solid appeal for this deck, I can see the legitimacy for any of the inclusions in affinity. I think it is going to come down to your meta though, is there more combo and control? Play Seize or Therapy. More aggro? play Blast.
Personally I think Cabal Therapy is more viable than Thoughtseize, although I love Thoughtseize, it is a brilliant card in and of itself. Just the ability to reuse Therapy I think is going to make it a better card than Thoughtseize, your argument that it is unplayable turn one on the play against an unknown opponent is entirely valid. However, if you look at the overall density of the played cards in Legacy, naming either Force of Will, Tarmogoyf, Brainstorm or Daze is going to give you pretty decent odds at nailing one of those, and if you whiff, well you know exactly what to call out next turn, and you know what you are playing against and how to play around and how to bait.
I can seen this, but naming heavly played cards, even if thier in thier deck, is still sketchy to hit. Also knowing what to name turn two after a miss is like thoughtsieze, but you also sac a guy. Galvanic blast seems much worse than thoughtsieze even agianst the agrro decks just because of its ability to take zoo's paths or merfolk's forces. you also happen to have an extra mana turn 1 often from springleaf.
thoughtseize - cabal therapy is strictly better for disruption in a deck like affinity.
This is only true if you hit on both attempts. I would often find i would have an extra mana turn one due to lack of arcbound worker and the presence of springleaf + 8 zero drops. Turn 1 therapy tends to be pretty sketchy (assuming you know your opponent's deck, if not its unplayable turn 1). I also dont really have anything to sac for value (again no worker). Against a deck like zoo thoughtsiee can also significently improve your clock by removing a key removal spell or one drop. Like i said both are viable but i dont think its as black and white as you make it. On galvanic blast im still firm in my opinion that it does not deserve inclusion. You stated that the 4 damage was relevant compared to 3 when this appears not to be the case with any wildly played creatures in legacy, the obvious, and ill admit big, exception being tarmogoyf. Flame javlin saw play not only in a format lacking bolt and other effiecent burn, but also a format filled with mistbind cliques and broodmate dragons. I insist you compare the two as thoughtsieze tends to do more than you think. Thoughsieze working like a removal spell for a one drop to taking a removal spell all help push that last bit of damage in as well.
Thoughtseize is an awful topdeck. If you like opal so much, why not run 4? I run 4 and have been loving the explosiveness of the card it does infinite things and topdecking them isn't the worst thing depending on your board position.
Glimpse of nature requires green and green isn't played that much because the rest of the color's give affinity much better cards than glimpse along with glimpse being an awful topdeck, its even worse than a springleaf drum off the top lategame because it isn't an artifact. If you wanted to play a combo deck with glimpse sure it's a great engine in a deck running 16 0 costed artifact creatures along with kobolds but in affinity it is awful. Even in your opener it could be pretty bad and can trick you into keeping some bad hands with some 0 drop creatures and low and behold off those 0 mana creatures you drew nothing of relevance. Darn. GG's?
17 lands is too many. You can run 15 lands and be perfectly fine 16 is fine but 17? Way too many. You don't need that many lands in affinity.
I actually thought of playing stoneforge mystic in affinity Warden but I thought about how dreadfully slow the card is. Sure it is CA and gets you jitte or plating or any equipment really but the problem is the speed. If you play it turn 2 every game sure you'll regularly win on turn 4 but if you instead drop a say ravager on turn 2 you will win on turn 3 with the right cards. I really like stoneforge mystic as a card don't get me wrong but I don't think it fits affinity's gameplan very well.
Has anyone tried enlightened tutor in an affinity shell that doesn't abuse that stupid sword of the meek combo? I think it has potential despite being card disadvantage since it can grab anything in the deck even land if you need it to colorfix. It can grab bombs like tempered steel, ravager, MoE, or plating to ornithopter if you already have a plating on the field. Also allows for a more toolbox approach for silver bullet answers to your opponents cards. Opinions?
stoneforge is 2 slow for obvious reasons, running mox as a mana source does not work unless you also have a land thus 17 is good. Thoughtsieze is very required and actually has a good target against every deck. Arguing something is a bad topdeck is not a reason not to play it (we didnt play 3 bitterblossom now did we). on the topic of lands again i feel i want 17 to power up my moxes and its fine to let ravager/master get sum bonuses as well. If your playing mox as....well a mox, your doing it ridiculously incorrectly. lastly enlightened tutor is very bad, not only do u actually duress yourself but it also slows you down. tempered steel is also unplayable btw, read my earlier post about bad cards.
lists around here pain me
im just going to touch on a few cards
Galvanic blast: would this deck play bolt? Is 4 toughness actually and different?
no and no, this card is very unnecessary and nonexplosive, as well as doing nothing.
Etched champion: this card is only good if it picks up a plating, ide rather have an ornithopter.
Not playing Memnite and Ornithopter: If you could play a mox in vintage that can be tapped for mana multiple turns and can pick up and equipment and attack for 10 or more in legacy, why aren't you.
Not packing disruption: The older a format gets, the more important disruption tends to be. Ant is still a force to be reckoned with as well as firespout being a large problem without drawing a master of etherium. Even a swords to plowshares can critically slow you down.
Anyways, theres much more awful stuff floating around here but im not going to adress it all, i will get to my list
After about 2 weeks of testing agianst the field and tuning im settling around this:
4 ravager
4 memnite
4 spring-leaf drum
4 ornithopter
4 cranial plating
3 mox opal
4 frogmite
4 disciple
4 thoughtcast
4 master of ethierium
4 thoughtsieze
4 seat of synoid
4 darksteel citadel
4 vault of wispers
1 great forge
4 ancient den
unless you have not actually tested this deck you will probably think im missing aether vial. At this point vial is much to slow and its not missed. On the other hand springleaf drum got infinity better with memnite added to allow many turn 1 platings and ravagers with the help of mox opal. Mox opal allows this which is a reason it should not be treated as a land, 17 lands plus the moxen has been working well and i would not change it. Thoughtsieze is also very easy to support color-wise now and is a must have, for reason mentioned above. I wish there was room for arcbound worker and myr enforcer but each are too slow now. This deck already has enough win conditions (plating, master of etherium, and ravager). Try out this list and say if you would make any changes. (please dont try and convince me you dont need thoughtsieze, unless you adding cabal therapy or sumthing)
G1: 2-1 vs Merfolk
G2: 2-1 vs Merfolk
G3: 2-0 vs Belcher (Cedric Phillips didn't show up)
G4: 0-2 vs Zoo (damn that t2 cannonist! and not drawing finks/submerges!)
G5: 2-1 vs Merfolk
In my testing i found that stifle has been so-so, i have been thinking about cutting them intirely, since i board them out almost evry game, for the pierces in the side.
This gives me extra protection against counters g1 and 3/4 extra SB slots against stuff like zoo (wich is a pain in teh ass!)
What do you guys/galls think?
am i missing sumthing with the 4 aquamoeba and 3 mongrel?
Also i feel that people are getting tired of stifle and trying to cut it (like i said: people would find out its terrible =P) for other cards. I think that intuition is an interesting option but it tends to be a little slow. I like how the above list runs 4 daze because 2 just seems soooo baaad. Anyways im glad people are starting to shift this deck twoards how i feel it should go, but im still waiting to see some vendilion clique =P. Seriously that cards sweet =)
so ANOTHER list toped aquameoba and stifle at the star city 5k. Sigh, i feel like this is a lack of effort over a perfect build. Anyone else feel the same?
well, popular BANT survival decks running UGW combination, and still keep the consistency of deck...
yeah but i was pointing out that those decks are completely different form madness. Maddness is an aggro deck that happens to gain advantage from survival and wild mongoose. The bant decks are a combo deck with goyf as a backup plan.
Anyone thinking of splashing white for Enlightened tutor? Since deck is based on SOTF combo, it would be nice to always have 2. TURN - survival.
I suggested this in earlier posts and event spent a good amount of time testing it. Basically i found this isnt rly a combo deck as much as it is a tempo aggro deck and that is the direction i think it should go.
White splash makes this pretty much worse than a dedicated combo deck with loyal retainers.
In an unknown meta, you want to have at least 1 Jitte. However, if you suspect the presence of combo decks, even if there seems more than 1, u might want to drop jitte to ensure that you will beat combo.
In theory, aggro control like survival madness should beat combo, but you need more counters.
For the list Wraith posted, it runs 4 FoW and 2 Daze. Daze is pretty much useless once you reach mid-game. Mere 6 counters with 2 of them totally situational, that has reached into the field of inconsistency of counters. You would want to have about 8 counters in an unknown meta.
Wraith's list seems to be tuned against aggro and counterbalance, but weaker against combos.
As i play this deck more and more daze becomes worse in my eyes.
1. You cannot play daze turn one on the play or turn 2 on the draw because of the many 2 drops this deck plays
2. late game daze becomes very bad and is usually force fodder
3. Daze is used to give this deck a chance against combo while we set up our cards. Spell pierce actually does this better and at a better cost.
4. Spell pierce holds value better late game against every deck in the field (some more than other of course)
This is close to the optimal manabase imo. My only critique is that you trade 1 forest for 1 basic island. 4 duals/4 basics/4 wastes/8 fetch is so solid. Not to bash those who run cradle or pendel but I really don't see a reason that outweighs the pressures you bring upon yourself. If you run 1x pendel, even that's not worth taking away from the above suggested.
Thekkilla, I really like your list. It's interesting. I am pro-fauna for various reasons but I think 4 is overkill. You could cut into this area in exchange for jittes (very needed) and/or blue stuff to aid FoW. Tell me how Clique works for you because I love clique itself but am unsure if the girls work in this deck's setup.
I feel that fauna shaman has been good to me, but mana intensive. One of the main problem i encounter is that daze is very hard on our mana base since landing our 2 drops is so important. Both of these factors has lead me to trimm 2 fauna shaman and 3 daze for 3 spell pierce and something else. As i said the blue cards to pitch to force are still few, but its also important to note that i have not tested jitte in this deck much at all and would like to hear opinions on it. After seeing the list that top 8ed the Denver 5k also playing jitte i felt like it must have earned its spot. I would love to hear more opinions on this deck and on jitte and spell pierce over daze in general
EDIT: I want to add that i have seen waterfront bouncer as a sort of alternative aquamoeba and i believe that another discarder is required. Many overlook that fauna shaman is actually the same amount of discard on the same turn as waterfront bouncer. I believe that fauna shaman is much better as it finds rootwallas, vengevines, or just dudes (vendilion clique, trygon preditor ect)
Also vendilion has been very good in testing. Its an evasive creature with high power for mana cost that disrupts the opponent. The fact it can also be pitched to survival and force of will push it over the top in this deck. The only reason there isn't more is that it is legendary and a 3 mana creature.
After testing this deck ive found that its much diffrent than i origenally thought. At first I thought that survival was key and it behaved like a combo deck, but this is more like an aggro-tempo deck the takes advantage of daze and wild mongrel more than it thought. After testing and tuning my list looks like:
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
4 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
4 forest
4 Force of will
4 survival of the fittest
3 daze
4 brainstorm
I wanted around 25 creatures for survival and fauna shaman (ill get to that card in a sec) and also wanted enough cards to pitch to force of will. I am still not happy with the number of blue spells to pitch ( 16 plus the 4 forces) but i am having alot of trouble adding more so this is the bare minimum. Vendilion clique is a good card in a vacuum and is sometimes tutored for. Shrieking drake is just for a turn faster vengevine with the shaman, and also is ok when you run out of rootwallas to bring back vengevine. Trygon is another card to pitch to force of will and when its good, its very good. Fauna shaman is a card that i eventually decided to try, but at the time i thought it was bad because it didn't let me immediately "combo out" with vengevines but now i see this deck more as a deck that uses survival to gain tempo and aggro through the vines. Fauna shaman is slow but one or two activations tends to pull you very far ahead against the slower control decks (like counter balance/new horizons) and i believe deserves and inclusion. I would like to hear opinions on my build and other changes i made have overlooked.
Keep in mind, matignon was supposed to get the god book. So in that sense he has an advantage to get some early testing as I'm sure other popular writers like Patrick Chapin and LSV also get the god book. Its merely the sharing of this information WoTC frowns upon. Not sure if you were saying that its unfair they got them in general, but thats how i interpreted it. Despite I myself finding it unfair, WoTC didn't have a problem with it . a few people here seam to think
Official DailyMTG article:
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/news/042811a
I can seen this, but naming heavly played cards, even if thier in thier deck, is still sketchy to hit. Also knowing what to name turn two after a miss is like thoughtsieze, but you also sac a guy. Galvanic blast seems much worse than thoughtsieze even agianst the agrro decks just because of its ability to take zoo's paths or merfolk's forces. you also happen to have an extra mana turn 1 often from springleaf.
This is only true if you hit on both attempts. I would often find i would have an extra mana turn one due to lack of arcbound worker and the presence of springleaf + 8 zero drops. Turn 1 therapy tends to be pretty sketchy (assuming you know your opponent's deck, if not its unplayable turn 1). I also dont really have anything to sac for value (again no worker). Against a deck like zoo thoughtsiee can also significently improve your clock by removing a key removal spell or one drop. Like i said both are viable but i dont think its as black and white as you make it. On galvanic blast im still firm in my opinion that it does not deserve inclusion. You stated that the 4 damage was relevant compared to 3 when this appears not to be the case with any wildly played creatures in legacy, the obvious, and ill admit big, exception being tarmogoyf. Flame javlin saw play not only in a format lacking bolt and other effiecent burn, but also a format filled with mistbind cliques and broodmate dragons. I insist you compare the two as thoughtsieze tends to do more than you think. Thoughsieze working like a removal spell for a one drop to taking a removal spell all help push that last bit of damage in as well.
1. deck does well
2. had stifle manascrew plan
3. people added 2-3 moer basics
4. deck died
more accurate timeline =P (sry ill just take any moment to rag on new horizons)
stoneforge is 2 slow for obvious reasons, running mox as a mana source does not work unless you also have a land thus 17 is good. Thoughtsieze is very required and actually has a good target against every deck. Arguing something is a bad topdeck is not a reason not to play it (we didnt play 3 bitterblossom now did we). on the topic of lands again i feel i want 17 to power up my moxes and its fine to let ravager/master get sum bonuses as well. If your playing mox as....well a mox, your doing it ridiculously incorrectly. lastly enlightened tutor is very bad, not only do u actually duress yourself but it also slows you down. tempered steel is also unplayable btw, read my earlier post about bad cards.
How is that better than like old extended elf combo?
im just going to touch on a few cards
Galvanic blast: would this deck play bolt? Is 4 toughness actually and different?
no and no, this card is very unnecess
Etched champion: this card is only good if it picks up a plating, ide rather have an ornithopter.
Not playing Memnite and Ornithopter: If you could play a mox in vintage that can be tapped for mana multiple turns and can pick up and equipment and attack for 10 or more in legacy, why aren't you.
Not packing disruption: The older a format gets, the more important disruption tends to be. Ant is still a force to be reckoned with as well as firespout being a large problem without drawing a master of etherium. Even a swords to plowshares can critically slow you down.
Anyways, theres much more awful stuff floating around here but im not going to adress it all, i will get to my list
After about 2 weeks of testing agianst the field and tuning im settling around this:
4 ravager
4 memnite
4 spring-leaf drum
4 ornithopter
4 cranial plating
3 mox opal
4 frogmite
4 disciple
4 thoughtcast
4 master of ethierium
4 thoughtsieze
4 seat of synoid
4 darksteel citadel
4 vault of wispers
1 great forge
4 ancient den
unless you have not actually tested this deck you will probably think im missing aether vial. At this point vial is much to slow and its not missed. On the other hand springleaf drum got infinity better with memnite added to allow many turn 1 platings and ravagers with the help of mox opal. Mox opal allows this which is a reason it should not be treated as a land, 17 lands plus the moxen has been working well and i would not change it. Thoughtsieze is also very easy to support color-wise now and is a must have, for reason mentioned above. I wish there was room for arcbound worker and myr enforcer but each are too slow now. This deck already has enough win conditions (plating, master of etherium, and ravager). Try out this list and say if you would make any changes. (please dont try and convince me you dont need thoughtsieze, unless you adding cabal therapy or sumthing)
am i missing sumthing with the 4 aquamoeba and 3 mongrel?
Also i feel that people are getting tired of stifle and trying to cut it (like i said: people would find out its terrible =P) for other cards. I think that intuition is an interesting option but it tends to be a little slow. I like how the above list runs 4 daze because 2 just seems soooo baaad. Anyways im glad people are starting to shift this deck twoards how i feel it should go, but im still waiting to see some vendilion clique =P. Seriously that cards sweet =)
yeah but i was pointing out that those decks are completely different form madness. Maddness is an aggro deck that happens to gain advantage from survival and wild mongoose. The bant decks are a combo deck with goyf as a backup plan.
I suggested this in earlier posts and event spent a good amount of time testing it. Basically i found this isnt rly a combo deck as much as it is a tempo aggro deck and that is the direction i think it should go.
White splash makes this pretty much worse than a dedicated combo deck with loyal retainers.
As i play this deck more and more daze becomes worse in my eyes.
1. You cannot play daze turn one on the play or turn 2 on the draw because of the many 2 drops this deck plays
2. late game daze becomes very bad and is usually force fodder
3. Daze is used to give this deck a chance against combo while we set up our cards. Spell pierce actually does this better and at a better cost.
4. Spell pierce holds value better late game against every deck in the field (some more than other of course)
I feel that fauna shaman has been good to me, but mana intensive. One of the main problem i encounter is that daze is very hard on our mana base since landing our 2 drops is so important. Both of these factors has lead me to trimm 2 fauna shaman and 3 daze for 3 spell pierce and something else. As i said the blue cards to pitch to force are still few, but its also important to note that i have not tested jitte in this deck much at all and would like to hear opinions on it. After seeing the list that top 8ed the Denver 5k also playing jitte i felt like it must have earned its spot. I would love to hear more opinions on this deck and on jitte and spell pierce over daze in general
EDIT: I want to add that i have seen waterfront bouncer as a sort of alternative aquamoeba and i believe that another discarder is required. Many overlook that fauna shaman is actually the same amount of discard on the same turn as waterfront bouncer. I believe that fauna shaman is much better as it finds rootwallas, vengevines, or just dudes (vendilion clique, trygon preditor ect)
Also vendilion has been very good in testing. Its an evasive creature with high power for mana cost that disrupts the opponent. The fact it can also be pitched to survival and force of will push it over the top in this deck. The only reason there isn't more is that it is legendary and a 3 mana creature.
4 tropical island
4 wasteland
4 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
4 forest
4 rootwalla
4 vengevine
4 wild mongrel
4 noble hierarch
2 vendilion clique
1 trygon preditor
1 wonder
1 shrieking drake
4 fauna shaman
4 Force of will
4 survival of the fittest
3 daze
4 brainstorm
I wanted around 25 creatures for survival and fauna shaman (ill get to that card in a sec) and also wanted enough cards to pitch to force of will. I am still not happy with the number of blue spells to pitch ( 16 plus the 4 forces) but i am having alot of trouble adding more so this is the bare minimum. Vendilion clique is a good card in a vacuum and is sometimes tutored for. Shrieking drake is just for a turn faster vengevine with the shaman, and also is ok when you run out of rootwallas to bring back vengevine. Trygon is another card to pitch to force of will and when its good, its very good. Fauna shaman is a card that i eventually decided to try, but at the time i thought it was bad because it didn't let me immediately "combo out" with vengevines but now i see this deck more as a deck that uses survival to gain tempo and aggro through the vines. Fauna shaman is slow but one or two activations tends to pull you very far ahead against the slower control decks (like counter balance/new horizons) and i believe deserves and inclusion. I would like to hear opinions on my build and other changes i made have overlooked.