What do you guys think of Gifts Ungiven in this deck? I tried it out a while ago, but abandoned the list when Dig Through Time came out. Now that it's banned again I've been giving my old list a try and it's been performing pretty well in testing. Gifts is an absolute house against control (which is admittedly not too popular right now), but still adds good consistency against everything else and has been better than Serum Visions in my experience.
I haven't got to use Increasing Vengeance much, but one time I did flash it back on a topdeck'd Temporal Mastery and that was pretty cool. I'm not sure about incinerate yet either, it's been ok but it might become a combination of pillar of flame and maybe burning oil? I'm not sure. Entreat the Angels is pretty nuts. If you miracle that card it's pretty impossible to loose barring invisible stalker/walker ultimates/burning out, and you often win the next turn. If you draw it and can't miracle it justs get traded for better cards via looting or sticks around for the late late game, where it can still be fine. I mean, it can still be air elemental or broodmate dragon pretty easily.
The applications of this card are pretty narrow, but when it's good, there's no other card that could really take it's place. I think GSZ makes it playable and probably even good.
The behemoth seems potentially beast in elfball or EDH ramp decks.
I really liked Killing Wave when I thought it said pay X, cause that would just be broken, as X life, I can't really think of any deck that would want this over BSZ that would want either.
I'm glad somebody mentioned this universal hipocrisy about hipsters... and how it still aplies to magic XD.
It's not a hypocrisy at all. Unorthodox =/= unquestionably unique.
Another deck you could try is a BRu control like Chapin's old lists. They didn't gain anything from DKA while other decks did, but they're still fun and and you get to play with Olivia, which is dope.
I'm a bit puzzled by this decklist (and by the archetype as a whole). My main question is how you deal with aggro decks?
This DoubleDrain deck is running a grand total of 4 spot removal spells + 1 tendrils of corruption + 1 consume the meek and zero damnation / wrath effects and zero lifegain (like rest for the weary).
What is the advantage of this deck as against the esper variety which runs a bunch of path to exile, esper charm, rest for the weary and some wrath effects or better spot removal?
The only thing that I can think of is that your build has a better matchup vs. combo whereas esper has a better matchup vs. aggro. You think this is a fair assessment?
I actually think straight UB with lower removal counts à la Dralnu du Louvre is fine against aggro. 20 life is a lot to punch through when high counter spell counts (and often eventually a tendrils) keep you from getting burned out and you almost never take burn from lands. Preboard, you can just take the beats for a while from their earlier guys until you have the mana for removal and counters in the same turn (or they miss a creature for a turn). Teachings into consume the meek is often enough to push you into the late game where this deck is almost impossible to beat. Postboard there are a multitudes of options for you, one of the most brutal being Hurkyl's Recall against affinity. This is my experience before Dark Confidant decks started showing up, though. An early Dark Confidant is pretty brutal if you have low removal and no Spell Snares.
Here's a list I've been toying around with that's much more of a UR control deck that has the Wolf Run end game. It can however sometime just ramp up to quick titans with the right hand against the right deck.
The mana base was just a rough guess and I still have to rework it to be more consistant. In testing I noticed the deck also has a hard time with Hero of Bladehold with Devil's play or resolving a titan as the only real outs. Frost Titan has been pretty great and I'd like to make room maindeck if I can.
As for the people saying unban Ancestral Visions/Jace are you telling me that you wouldn't run 4 Ancestral Visions in zoo (Or a couple of Jaces in big zoo)?
Both of those are cards that are good in almost any blue deck, including aggro.
sori for the noob question sir but what do you mean by setting the clock with Falkenrath Marauders ?
Setting a clock means to put down a threat that will end the game if left unanswered for a number of turns.
There's a list of magic slang here if you ever find yourself wondering what something means again.
Quote from mtgs-wiki »
Clock
A 'Clock' or 'X Turn Clock' is a threat that will lead to victory over an opponent in a finite number of turns, thus giving the opponent a known time limit in which to either win or answer the threat. For example, if a player is at 20 life and an unblockable creature with a power of 4 is played by their opponent, that player is said to be on a 5-turn clock.
@brogenitus tnx for the tips sir. ill try different combinations with that. however today after i was destroyed, all the guys watching advised me to put atleast 2 past in flames aside from the 4 snapcasters. i wonder if ill try it...
General lack of brainstorming in this thread makes me dissapoint. Win-Con ideas: Mirror-Mad Phantasm expensive, fragile, generally eh. However, with the right tools, could be decent at fueling your yard. Also makes Pyre vaguely playable.
Mindshrieker comes down early and keeps smashing. Heavy mana investment though.
Kruin Outlaw Efficient in combat, and puts constant pressure on the opponent to cast things (possibly overextending).
Charmbreaker Devils high CMC, but I like the card. Potential to do stupid stuff, and generates gradual CA.
If aggro is a major concern, why not run 1 less Geistflame and 1 less Brimstone, and add 2 Blasphemous act mainboard? It gives you 5 sweeps MB, can't be too bad.
I can get behind Naturalize. 4 Hinterlands, and 1-2 Forests should do.
Nonsense, we've been brainstorming plenty for a mostly dead sub forum and undefined metagame. There's more to brainstorming than spewing out a ton of cards.
Heretic's punishment is far too slow and mana intensive in a deck that will generally have it hit for about 2. It's like a really really bad burning vengeance. I think the game would really have to go long enough to go to time to see this be good.
Curse of the Pierced heart is just far to slow for this deck. Reach isn't really a problem this deck and curse also can't hit creatures. It really lags behind the other choices that could fill the same slot.
Mindshrieker seems too inconsistent to be worth it. It dies to everything without a pump and every time you pump it you're taking a gamble that the top card is worth it to not spend your mana on something else.
Kruin's outlaw seems kind of weak. Maybe it's just my experience but all the flip cards seem kind of weak. This deck plays a lot of spells because of all the draw; I don't think this will flip very often and I think you'll be holding yourself yourself to stop it from flipping back.
Mirror-Mad Phantasm and Falkenrath Mauraders are both fine IMO if you want big beaters. I think I'd definitely prefer Marauders though seeing as you don't have to keep up mana for it, it's immune to most burn after a single hit, it's a faster clock, and it can hang back to be a good blocker after a hit or two. Mirror-Mad Phantasm does have some nice synergy with flashback, though, and it can dodge bonds of faith and devil's play.
Charmbreaker Devil's doesn't seem that good to me. He doesn't play well with flashback cards and brimstone volley is one of the lesser cards in the deck. He certainly isn't bad as a beater/dissipate recurrer, but I think there are better options (at that point in the game I'm really looking to draw a Devil's Play instead anyways).
On the Sturmgeist: I'm not completely sold on him either, but I wanted a beater and a way to gain more incremental card advantage in a topdeck war and he filled both roles. Honestly I haven't tested enough to decide whether he'll make the final cut or not, but he's been decent so far.
On Grasp of Phantasms: this card got cut. I put it in there in case I faced some sort of fatty.dek I wasn't aware of.
On Blasphemous Act vs Rolling Temblor: I often find that Rolling Temblor just isn't enough against champion of the parish and various wolves, etc. I'm not ready to do a full replacement, but I think Blasphemous Act is worth having a few of alongside temblor.
I also added a few Witchbane orbs for the mirror and random burn-heavy decks.
@jazone
Delver of secrets seems kind of inconsistent to me. He can be a quick 3/2 flier, but it's not guaranteed and I'm not even sure how good he is once he is. It seems like he can't often race the aggro decks and is easily dealt with by the control decks. Has he really been good for you?
Also, why the four ancient grudges in the board? What artifacts are you needing to kill besides Witchbane Orb? I ran one in the board originally and may consider putting it back in if the Witchbane Orb becomes common (though naturalize is probably enough with snapcaster mage), but I don't really care about equipment and I don't expect Grimoire of the Dead to be played (even then I wouldn't want four). The naturalize is there for the mirror as well to kill their Burning Vengeances.
On the issue of Past in Flames, I agree with the statement "they say its too slow and Snapcaster Mage is better". I really can't see past in flames being used outside of some sort of Ritual Storm deck in the eternal formats.
So long as Goyf remains in this format, there is no reason to not run him. Once you add in that pressure component, you also need to add in Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique. And so long as you have between 9-12 of these creatures, you really also need a sword or two to make them scary.
This makes U and G pretty standard fare for the deck. Turn 3 Goyf with Spell Snare/Spell Pierce/Path to Exile backup is a strong play, as is Turn 4 Goyf with all of those cards as backup in addition to Spellstutter/Leak/etc. The question to me has always been what is the 3rd color after U and G?
To me, this is a no-brainer. You definitely want Black as your base, because Black is what is going to give you the edge in so many matchups. Black gives you sweepers (Damnation) and spot removal (Doom Blade) just like white (Wrath/Path), but it also gives you one of the best discard spells in Magic's history (Thoughtseize) along with Inquisition. With a little innovation in the board, it also gives you Maelstrom Pulse and Putrefy, not to mention the most underrated black card in the format: Phyrexian Arena.
White just doesn't offer the same boosts that Black does. It has enchantment and artifact removal, yes, but that's what Green also does for us. Black gives you discard and card advantage spells, and that should automatically give it the nod over White.
-ktkenshinx-
Honestly, I think Path and Timely Reinforcements in the board are just that much better than the black splash. I'll miss flashing back a Thoughtseize against combo, but NLB has pretty good combo match-ups anyways and I'd rather just have cards besides discard against other matchups. I also think if you want to board in a draw engine that Jace Beleren is just better because you don't have to jump through hoops to get the mana and can keep a high island count for Shackles.
As for Snapcaster vs Spellstutter, they really serve different purposes. Snapcaster is miles better in the late-game, but Spellstutter really helps keep on the pressure or keep the defense up by cheaply countering removal and giving you a body (it occasionally deals with dudes, but snapcaster is usally better at that too). I like a mix of each.
Edit: If you're running Snapcaster Mage, do you guys prefer Timely Reinforcements, Kitchen Finks or Rhox War Monk against the agressive decks?
Edit - 10/12/11: I forgot to add Sulfur Falls to the decklist I posted.
This is the list I've been playing around with. Forbidden Alchemy is truly insane and I wouldn't play the deck without it. I used Harvest Pyre at one point but found it just plain awful without a few Forbidden Alchemies going off.
I'm also thinking of cutting back on the Brimstone Volleys and upping the Devil's Play count to all 4 in the main. You always get at least 2 kills out of it and I win a fair share of games off just back to back casting it at their face.
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells
3 Scapeshift
3 Cryptic Command
3 Remand
1 Counterflux
1 Logic Knot
1 Izzet Charm
1 Repeal
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Firespout
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Mystic Retrieval
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Steam Vents
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Stomping Ground
1 Mountain
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Breeding Pool
1 Raging Ravine
2 Flooded Grove
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Firespout
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Swan Song
1 Negate
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Batterskull
1 Spellskite
2 Nature's Claim
1 Repeal
Here's a list I've been trying, it's been doing well so far, though I dread to face a Consecrated Sphinx.
3 Snapcaster Mage
Flashback Spells
1 Increasing Vengeance
4 Desperate Ravings
3 Faithless Looting
4 Lingering Souls
Miracles
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Terminus
2 Temporal Mastery
1 Thunderous Wrath
1 Ponder
4 Mana Leak
3 Incinerate
3 Slagstorm
Planeswalkers
2 Tibalt, the Fiend Blooded
Lands
2 Desolate Lighthous
4 Evolving Wilds
19 Lands
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Inferno Titan
1 Dissipate
2 Geistflame
1 Gideon Jura
2 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded
1 Terminus
1 Whipflare
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Frost Titan
I haven't got to use Increasing Vengeance much, but one time I did flash it back on a topdeck'd Temporal Mastery and that was pretty cool. I'm not sure about incinerate yet either, it's been ok but it might become a combination of pillar of flame and maybe burning oil? I'm not sure. Entreat the Angels is pretty nuts. If you miracle that card it's pretty impossible to loose barring invisible stalker/walker ultimates/burning out, and you often win the next turn. If you draw it and can't miracle it justs get traded for better cards via looting or sticks around for the late late game, where it can still be fine. I mean, it can still be air elemental or broodmate dragon pretty easily.
I really liked Killing Wave when I thought it said pay X, cause that would just be broken, as X life, I can't really think of any deck that would want this over BSZ that would want either.
It's not a hypocrisy at all. Unorthodox =/= unquestionably unique.
Another deck you could try is a BRu control like Chapin's old lists. They didn't gain anything from DKA while other decks did, but they're still fun and and you get to play with Olivia, which is dope.
I actually think straight UB with lower removal counts à la Dralnu du Louvre is fine against aggro. 20 life is a lot to punch through when high counter spell counts (and often eventually a tendrils) keep you from getting burned out and you almost never take burn from lands. Preboard, you can just take the beats for a while from their earlier guys until you have the mana for removal and counters in the same turn (or they miss a creature for a turn). Teachings into consume the meek is often enough to push you into the late game where this deck is almost impossible to beat. Postboard there are a multitudes of options for you, one of the most brutal being Hurkyl's Recall against affinity. This is my experience before Dark Confidant decks started showing up, though. An early Dark Confidant is pretty brutal if you have low removal and no Spell Snares.
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
Card Draw
4 Desperate Ravings
3 Think Twice
Counterspells
4 Mana Leak
2 Dissipate
Removal/Burn
2 Devil's Play
4 Slagstorm
2 Whipflare
4 Rampant Growth
Lands
2 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Hinterland Harbor
2 Rootbound Crag
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Island
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Consecrated Sphinx
2 Frost Titan
2 Spellskite
1 Dissipate
2 Flashfreeze
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Whipflare
1 Volition Reins
The mana base was just a rough guess and I still have to rework it to be more consistant. In testing I noticed the deck also has a hard time with Hero of Bladehold with Devil's play or resolving a titan as the only real outs. Frost Titan has been pretty great and I'd like to make room maindeck if I can.
Both of those are cards that are good in almost any blue deck, including aggro.
Setting a clock means to put down a threat that will end the game if left unanswered for a number of turns.
There's a list of magic slang here if you ever find yourself wondering what something means again.
There's no harm in just trying something.
Nonsense, we've been brainstorming plenty for a mostly dead sub forum and undefined metagame. There's more to brainstorming than spewing out a ton of cards.
Heretic's punishment is far too slow and mana intensive in a deck that will generally have it hit for about 2. It's like a really really bad burning vengeance. I think the game would really have to go long enough to go to time to see this be good.
Curse of the Pierced heart is just far to slow for this deck. Reach isn't really a problem this deck and curse also can't hit creatures. It really lags behind the other choices that could fill the same slot.
Mindshrieker seems too inconsistent to be worth it. It dies to everything without a pump and every time you pump it you're taking a gamble that the top card is worth it to not spend your mana on something else.
Kruin's outlaw seems kind of weak. Maybe it's just my experience but all the flip cards seem kind of weak. This deck plays a lot of spells because of all the draw; I don't think this will flip very often and I think you'll be holding yourself yourself to stop it from flipping back.
Mirror-Mad Phantasm and Falkenrath Mauraders are both fine IMO if you want big beaters. I think I'd definitely prefer Marauders though seeing as you don't have to keep up mana for it, it's immune to most burn after a single hit, it's a faster clock, and it can hang back to be a good blocker after a hit or two. Mirror-Mad Phantasm does have some nice synergy with flashback, though, and it can dodge bonds of faith and devil's play.
Charmbreaker Devil's doesn't seem that good to me. He doesn't play well with flashback cards and brimstone volley is one of the lesser cards in the deck. He certainly isn't bad as a beater/dissipate recurrer, but I think there are better options (at that point in the game I'm really looking to draw a Devil's Play instead anyways).
On Grasp of Phantasms: this card got cut. I put it in there in case I faced some sort of fatty.dek I wasn't aware of.
On Blasphemous Act vs Rolling Temblor: I often find that Rolling Temblor just isn't enough against champion of the parish and various wolves, etc. I'm not ready to do a full replacement, but I think Blasphemous Act is worth having a few of alongside temblor.
I also added a few Witchbane orbs for the mirror and random burn-heavy decks.
@jazone
Delver of secrets seems kind of inconsistent to me. He can be a quick 3/2 flier, but it's not guaranteed and I'm not even sure how good he is once he is. It seems like he can't often race the aggro decks and is easily dealt with by the control decks. Has he really been good for you?
Also, why the four ancient grudges in the board? What artifacts are you needing to kill besides Witchbane Orb? I ran one in the board originally and may consider putting it back in if the Witchbane Orb becomes common (though naturalize is probably enough with snapcaster mage), but I don't really care about equipment and I don't expect Grimoire of the Dead to be played (even then I wouldn't want four). The naturalize is there for the mirror as well to kill their Burning Vengeances.
On the issue of Past in Flames, I agree with the statement "they say its too slow and Snapcaster Mage is better". I really can't see past in flames being used outside of some sort of Ritual Storm deck in the eternal formats.
Honestly, I think Path and Timely Reinforcements in the board are just that much better than the black splash. I'll miss flashing back a Thoughtseize against combo, but NLB has pretty good combo match-ups anyways and I'd rather just have cards besides discard against other matchups. I also think if you want to board in a draw engine that Jace Beleren is just better because you don't have to jump through hoops to get the mana and can keep a high island count for Shackles.
As for Snapcaster vs Spellstutter, they really serve different purposes. Snapcaster is miles better in the late-game, but Spellstutter really helps keep on the pressure or keep the defense up by cheaply countering removal and giving you a body (it occasionally deals with dudes, but snapcaster is usally better at that too). I like a mix of each.
Edit: If you're running Snapcaster Mage, do you guys prefer Timely Reinforcements, Kitchen Finks or Rhox War Monk against the agressive decks?
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Sturmgeist
Enchantments
4 Burning Vengeance
Instants
4 Think Twice
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Geistflame
3 Brimstone Volley
3 Dissipate
3 Devil's Play
2 Rolling Temblor
Lands
8 Mountain
6 Island
2 Hinterland Harbor
4 Shimmering Grotto
4 Sulfur Falls
1 Devil's Play
3 Naturalize
3 Blasphemous Act
1 Dissipate
1 Rolling Temblor
2 Grasp of Phantoms
2 Silent Departure
1 Geistflame
1 Brimstone Volley
Edit - 10/12/11: I forgot to add Sulfur Falls to the decklist I posted.
This is the list I've been playing around with. Forbidden Alchemy is truly insane and I wouldn't play the deck without it. I used Harvest Pyre at one point but found it just plain awful without a few Forbidden Alchemies going off.
I'm also thinking of cutting back on the Brimstone Volleys and upping the Devil's Play count to all 4 in the main. You always get at least 2 kills out of it and I win a fair share of games off just back to back casting it at their face.