MTG Salvation

I've actually mostly jumped ship to the Domain Zoo deck, but I still bring out my Teachings list every now and again. To be honest I find that the deck rarely has trouble drawing cards; it's more a "wrong answers for the wrong threats" problem, and a lack of board presence. The Gatekeepers is definitely an idea that answers both. I might start brewing up a list tonight.

Also just throwing the idea out there: we could use Abundant Growth (plus Gates) to power up a pretty consistent 3 or 4 colour list, perhaps with red as a tertiary colour and only a minor splash of black?

EDIT: Flicker/Wall seems good with Gatekeepers. Or even just Flicker; 14 free life is hard to beat for any aggro deck.
Any other reasons to be in green? Really wish Wall of Blossoms were common.

So this is the almost stock list have been playing up until now:
I moved one Doom Blade to the maindeck because I was struggling to find a cut to make in the board, and it has broad applications against everything but MBC. It's been performing very well so far.

To be honest, the card I feel is the weakest link in the maindeck from my testing is Qasali Pridemage (followed by Brainstorm). The Pridemage is always okay, but never stellar. The situations where you really need it as a Naturalise game 1 are few and far between, and I often find that even when there's a target, I have to question myself about losing a guy on board to do it. The Exalted does help you push through a stalled board as a mini-rancor, which is great, as well as allowing quite aggressive openings, but the deck in general isn't geared to take advantage of it very well. It's a reasonable topdeck, but it's still the smallest guy in the deck. Next to cards like Nacatl, Skyfisher and Rioters, a 2/2 just doesn't stack up.

My dissatisfaction with Brainstorm is something I have mentioned above. There's nothing wrong with them, but I feel I'd rather something that gives me a little more gas in the lategame than a cantrip. I'm going to replace them with Compulsive Research for now, but I may swap back if I find the 3-cost prohibitive.

Cutting the two Pridemages in the main frees up two slots: one for a second Aura Gnarlid, and the 21st land. The thing that pushes this deck over the top is usually its big hitters, and since sticking one usually wins the game, adding a 5th one makes sense. The Gnarlid's evasion is always excellent, even if it's sometimes a little smaller than Rioters. The 21st land might be a little less self-explanatory, but I've just added another three 3-drops, as well as boosted the deck's ability to deal with flood somewhat in playing Compulsive Research and an extra curve-topper. My mantra has always been "when in doubt, play more lands," so I'm going to test the 21st.

The last thing I'd like to test is a single Journey to Nowhere over a Lightning Bolt. This is one change I'm not particularly sure about; I would normally choose to play a Doom Blade, but I don't want two dead cards in the main against MBC. I may swap this back though, as Lightning Bolt is very cost-efficient, and the instant speed is always great, as is the reach it provides. We'll have to see.

I also rejigged my sideboard slightly. Snake Umbra wasn't performing as well as I'd hoped, less because of the vulnerability to 2-for-1s, but because once they kill off the Umbra the creature is half the threat it used to be. If I wanted the shield effect, I'd probably play Undying Evil as my first choice, or Hyena Umbra if the meta got a little more weenie-aggro focused. Duress has been invaluable; the information alone has won me several games by letting me easily outmanoeuvre my opponent's counters/removal. Electrickery is, I feel, a necessary evil against decks like Elves, as well as being really good against Delver. I've gone down to 1 Hydroblast as its two functions are mirrored by either Duress or Doom Blade anyway.

With those changes, here's how it looks:

Quote from LordSaturn »

Aura Gnarlid only likes auras. Now, you COULD run Temporal Isolation, but I strongly favor the ability to make a creature disappear from the battlefield completely AND at instant speed - it buys us a little game against Atog.

Oops! I should learn to read cards.

I agree, Temporal Isolation isn't what we want to be doing. Having played a number of matches with Doom Blade now, all I can say is I wish I drew it more often. I'll be upping the count in the 75 from 2 to 3 for sure.

Quote from LordSaturn »

Remember that drawing a Brainstorm actually makes it easier to subsequently draw your sideboard - boarding out dig spells is a bad idea, generally.

If you really don't like it, you could be the first to test Worldly Counsel - I've had it shortlisted for a while but haven't played much.

After playing with it a fair bit more, it's performing a heck of a lot better than it was in the first few matches I played. I think I just got on the unlucky end of variance at the start with this card. That said, I'm still thinking of replacing it with something that actually gains you CA. Worldy Counsel would definitely not be my pick; if anything I'd rather play Impulse simply because it's a reliable 4. But I was actually thinking more along the lines of Compulsive Research as a late-game refill card. I played two matches in the practice room with it replacing Brainstorm, and was impressed with the result. It's getting the nod from me for now, and I'll let you guys know how it goes in more serious matches.

Quote from LordSaturn »

Don't forget Pyroblast, which is a must-board against the UR builds.

I'm ahead of you, I'm running 2 in the board (was 3, but I dropped one when I added Duress).

Quote from LordSaturn »

The Mana Leak gets my approval because besides occasionally hammering a full-price Mulldrifter or an Exclude, it can also crumple an awkward Fling or a Corrupt/Tendrils of Corruption/Gray Merchant of Asphodel.

Yeah, I played with them in the board when I first put the deck together, and to be honest I'm missing them against control. I'm going to put them back in if I can find room, although my board is getting pretty crowded.

Quote from LordSaturn

Blightning is an old favorite of mine, but I don't know if it'd be at home here. You kind of have to craft a game plan where you can trade their cards away to nothing, and this deck is more threats than answers.

That is true. I'll try a few copies in the board for now, but they'll probably end up as Duresses or something else if I don't like them in testing.

Quote from LordSaturn

The effect is good, but resolving a 2G aura on a non-hexproof creature is pretty difficult. The damage-to-cost ratio is also not especially great.

That's true, but you want to board it in for long, grindy matchups where the CA is more important than the short-term damage. It does stretch their removal a lot further, and if they do ever tap out, resolving this is more permanent than say a Matca Rioters, as they now have to kill your best guy twice. I've played with the card several times now and each time it's been left unchecked it's singlehandedly won me the game, so they're staying for now. I'm keeping an open mind though, there may be more effective ways to win grindy games that are less vulnerable, but I think this is quite high-impact for the slots.

EDIT: Rereading this, I didn't make my main point clear enough. What I basically mean is it forces them to deal with a creature they wouldn't have otherwise been forced to deal with. A 2-power flyer vs MBC is not super threatening, but a 3/4 flying Ninja of the Deep Hours certainly is. Even if you get 2-for-1ed, it's still one less removal spell for your Matca Rioters, and many MBC builds don't run a great deal of spot removal, so it stretches their resources quite thin.

Quote from LordSaturn

This is just kind of stretching it. There aren't any artifacts we can tutor which help our actual game plan at a reasonable cost - the nearest thing is Wayfarer's Bauble and that's just outlandishly overpriced. Bonesplitter is a good card, but our problem isn't that our creatures don't have enough power, it's that we need to push through damage through blockers/removal.

Fair enough. Just some tech I noticed someone running.

Quote from LordSaturn

The latest winning builds have been running Doom Blade in the board. It's a good card for the same reasons as it's good for Affinity, in that it kills most stuff that won't just die chump-blocking. Broad, multidirectional sideboard cards are good in a healthy, diverse metagame.

Do you think Doom Blade is a straight upgrade to Journey here, or should we run a split? Journey does have some benefits in being able to exile things and pumping our Gnarlid, although it's sorcery speed (which is certainly much worse vs Atog and Delver).

Quote from LordSaturn

I could see upping the land count, but I don't think this deck handles flood well at all. We haven't got any good outlets for excess mana, because good outlets for excess mana don't fit well with the very aggressive main gameplan.

Hmm. It's probably my limited experience with the deck, so I'll play another 20 matches or so and then see how I feel about the land count and the deck's ability to cope with flood.

Quote from LordSaturn

Playing Brainstorm effectively is very skill-intensive, and it plays a bit differently in Pauper than elsewhere.

If you like all your cards, but need to put two back and shuffle them away, then congratulations, you're having a good day. Remember that they're just going back in your deck, and pick the two things you're least likely to want access to soon. It's generally okay to choke on land drops a little after the third or so, so maybe let that happen if it means keeping spells?

It's also occasionally correct to Brainstorm with no live shuffle. Sometimes this is because you're looking for a fetch/squawk, sometimes you just want to find a second or third Tribal Flames to slam the game shut out of nowhere. Your least-relevant cards are generally still pretty relevant when you re-draw them, especially if you haven't flooded your hand with lands.

Fair enough. As above, I'll keep playing with it for a while and then see how it's performing for me after a lot more matches. I've never really played with Brainstorm in any format, so I'm probably grossly undervaluing it.

EDIT: When, if ever, is it correct to board out Brainstorm? I've been taking it out where I don't have anything else to cut and I need to bring in utility spells without diluting my creature base. My rule of thumb is usually "would I rather draw a Brainstorm or a [card]?", but since I haven't found Brainstorm all that great, I've been bringing them out rather often. I still think it's probably correct to bring them out against much faster decks, where you're not really going to have the time to cast it.

Quote from LordSaturn

MBC's removal swarm will hit you early, because they have to kill everything, because we can bulldoze/Rancor their chump-blockers. I haven't seen UR Midrange much, but I bet they do the same thing. The main way to beat this is to lean into it, feeding them must-answer threats until they're exhausted, then kill them before they recover.

What this means is that you're better off casting on-curve with an Unearth next turn than waiting two extra turns so you can cast with Altar's Reap/Perilous Research backup. This is also why you generally see Unearth over Undying Evil.

That's true.

Although now that you mention it, Undying Evil does seem very good against them as well, as any time after turn 3 you're usually going to have enough mana to back it up. I might test it against MBC, as unlike say Spider Umbra it beats Edicts, and you can't really get 2-for-1'ed in response.

Quote from LordSaturn

I also hate playing Young Wolf in this deck, because he just doesn't beat down very hard. Luckily, the necessity of this evil - the previously extreme dominance of MBC over the meta - has waned considerably.

Personally, I just run my three panoramas and four Wild Nacatl and four Abundant Growth, and call it good - I'm more concerned with having a convincing second and third turn than a first. If I was going to pick up one of these, though, it'd be the Skarrgan Pit-Skulk - his Aura Gnarlid evasion is nontrivial.

Fair enough. Again, just an idea; this deck is at its best focusing on the midgame anyway.

Quote from LordSaturn

It's been discussed a lot, perhaps not in this thread. Duress is a solid play in the "exhaust their removal/counterspells" game-plan, especially any time we're anticipating Pauper Cryptic Command; the main issue is trying to cast it ahead of your creatures, which involves getting B up quickly. I haven't felt the need to play it, but it's a reasonable choice.

The more I think about it, the more I like Duress. The information is invaluable, as it lets you bait counters more effectively and craft a gameplan around sticking a big threat. It's also our only real out to Exclude short of playing Dispel (or, I suppose, Mana Leak, although that seems pretty marginal vs a blue deck). And playing against a counterspell deck, you often want B up fairly quickly anyway, for Unearth, and I haven't had any trouble (so far - touch wood) with getting the colours I need in a timely fashion.

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Quote from LordDowney

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
9 Forest 4 Evolving Wilds 4 Terramorphic Expanse 1 Swamp 1 Mountain 1 Plains 1 Island 4 Wild Nacatl 4 Squadron Hawk 4 Kor Skyfisher 3 Matca Rioters 2 Aura Gnarlid	4 Abundant Growth 4 Nylea's Presence 3 Snake Umbra 4 Tribal Flames 3 Lightning Bolt 2 Rancor 2 Unearth	Sideboard 2 Ancient Grudge 2 Neurok Stealthsuit 2 Doom Blade 3 Pyroblast 2 Armadillo Cloak 2 Ray of Revelation 2 Prismatic Strands

I took up some changes proposed in the thread, playing Snake Umbra over Brainstorm. I also changed around the sideboard a lot and I like it so far. Brainstorm often felt awkwardly slow and the card advantage with Squawks was seldom relevant. Snake Umbra was ok in my test games. It makes the creature you put it on a target for all the creature hate your opponent has. This is usually good, because there is often a big beater along one or two small flyers which are immediate threats with an Umbra. I also like Lighning Bolt over Staggershock, as in my experience the deck is often tight on mana up to turn 7, where a Lightning Bolt often helps to keep up the pressure.
Stealthsuit is really good vs UR Control.

To be honest I don't think Snake Umbra belongs in the maindeck. It's only really good in slow, grindy matchups, where the extra CA is super relevant. The +1/+1 is just too small for its cost to be playable game 1, IMO, and certainly not with 3 copies. There are too many matchups where it's terrible. If I were going to play an Umbra effect main, I'd go with either Spider Umbra, as it's cheap and on-colour, with a non-trivial effect against Delver and the like, or Hyena Umbra, as it makes your guy near-unkillable against both removal AND creature decks.

I agree with Lightning Bolt; I haven't yet tested Staggershock but I really like its cost-efficiency and, echoing previous opinions in the thread, I'd rather board in a more specific and high-impact hate card (such as Electrickery).

Speaking of which, Stealthsuit is another one on my list to test. Has anyone tried it vs MBC? If it's not effective against both, I'd probably play something more broad that's applicable against both it and UR Control (like Duress).

What are you boarding Prismatic Strands against? The front side seems extremely expensive in a deck this tight on mana, although the alternate cost is obviously great. I used to play with this in GW Slivers back in the day, and was almost always unimpressed (though it was a necessary evil against Grapeshot storm).

Finally got the chance to play this deck today, and absolutely love it! I've been overseas, so while I found this thread a couple of weeks ago, I've only been able to get on MTGO today. I did some theorycrafting in the meantime, but wanted to actually play the deck before I posted my ideas.

Some things to test/consider:

Blightning: Seems like in the right situation it would be excellent at backing up pressure on board against slower opponents. Seems quite strong against MBC, as they're either discarding lands (hopefully delaying Gray Merchant), value creatures, or removal, all of which is good. They might even be maindeckable, as it does add a lot of reach.

Snake Umbra: After Fengrar suggested Spider Umbra above, I thought taking it one step further would be even more effective. While Spider Umbra is cheaper, this turns any flier into an absolute must-kill, lest we bury them in CA. The mana cost does make it more susceptible to instant-speed removal, but you'd often be putting this on a Nacatl or Skyfisher rather than a 3-drop, which means they still need to deal with your 5/5 Rioters. I've played one match vs MBC so far with 2 copies in the board, and it was very effective the game it stuck.

Trinket Mage: I actually played the mirror in my second 2-man queue, and he was running this as tech, with a maindeck Bonesplitter as the primary target. It seems fairly effective, as it's usually going to be a 4/2, but leaves a Bonesplitter behind when it dies. I didn't see him play any other 1-cost artifacts, but Lifestaff seems like a must-include to pair with this, as well as an artifact land or two - probably just Tree of Tales, so we don't lose any green sources. Pyrite Spellbomb or Executioner's Capsule could work too as tutor targets.

Doom Blade/Journey to Nowhere: I may be misunderstanding the matchup, but vs Affinity the only real cards that threaten us are the 4/4s and Atog. While Hydroblast comes in to fight Atog, I feel like running more answers to the actual threats is a better plan than playing Gorilla Shaman and Ancient Grudge to try and blow up their lands. Sure, you can make the argument that the tempo loss is devastating and lets us get ahead, but it also costs us tempo to do so, and in the case of Grudge, we're only killing two lands at maximum - considering half the deck is very cheap spells and/or cantrips, they only need to draw one or two more lands to carry on as if nothing happened. If Grudge killed more of their relevant creatures it'd be far superior, but their beefiest creatures are Carapace Forger and Atog (and in some builds, Somber Hoverguard/Auriok Sunchaser). I'm going to try running these as my affinity "hate" and see how it goes.

The 21st land: I've only played about 12 matches with the deck, but I'm finding the only real games I struggle in are the ones where I'm low on lands. On paper 3 should be enough to operate comfortably, but with so many cantrips and Squadron Hawks often only having 3 lands is a huge bottleneck. I'm going to test out running 21 or even 22 lands, because this deck deals with flooding very well, and I'd rather be able to cast my spells than sit there with a full grip casting 1 creature a turn and cursing my deck.

Cutting Brainstorm: Now this might be heresy, and again I haven't played the deck much so I could be wrong, but the Brainstorms just feel very clunky to me. In some lategame situations they're okay, but to get full value you need to have both a fetchland and things you want to shuffle away. That's all very well when you're mana flooded, but in general our card quality is so high there are few cards you really want to pitch outside of the obvious Squadron Hawks.

Perilous Research/Altar's Reap: Just a thought I had for a sideboard card against removal-heavy decks like MBC. Responding to spot removal by drawing a bunch of cards seems pretty good, and you can also throw away a useless Squadron Hawk if you're low on gas. It does kinda overlap with Snake Umbra though, and I'm not sure which is better.

Nettle Sentinel/Skarrgan Pit-Skulk: Just a thought I had while playing. Sometimes you want a second one-drop to follow Nacatl when you have a fetchland on turn 2, and these are the best aggressive green one-drops I could think of. This deck is quite midrangey however, and so I don't know they're really necessary though, plus they're both fairly weak topdecks. I don't like Young Wolf in this slot either, because until they kill it it's a very unimpressive 1/1 - it's only really worth it against Edict effects.

Duress: Has anyone tried this out? Seems like a very good anti-removal option against quite a lot of decks, and the extra information is always excellent, especially in a deck like this where there are so many lines of play and forward planning is crucial. Pity it can't take Gray Merchant.

EDIT: Speaking of the Oubliette bug fix, I had a weird situation come up when I destroyed one with Qasali Pridemage. I had a two Kor Skyfishers, both with a Rancor on them, when he exiled one with Oubliette. When I blew up the Oubliette and the Skyfisher came back, I got TWO etb triggers to bounce a permanent. O.o

Hey guys, sorry I haven't posted in ages, I've been super busy with other stuff and haven't played a great deal. Here's my latest list:



I've been happy with the 2/2 split of Deprive and Prohibit. I occasionally have problems with countering 3-drops on the draw, but this is equally made up for by not bouncing a land and being castable for a single U (I can fetch a mountain on turn 1, still hold a counter up on 2, and then kill something on turn 3).

I've tried switching things up by moving to a Brainstorm/AK draw suite. While Alchemy does synergise with AK, I felt that it was sometimes a liability because you have no way to recur a lost singleton bullet that you couldn't select. Brainstorm, however, is a great way to solve both mana screw and flood, and works very well with 12 shuffle effects in the deck. It's cheap, too, which is always a boon. Similarly, AK does an impression of Think Twice, but effectively replaces Mysteries of the Deep (my teachings target when I need to just draw some damn cards), which frees up a slot for a 4th Teachings - something both necessary and allowable by the sudden lack of mana sinks (no Alchemy/Think Twice flashback). Plus, you can now easily tutor for 3 or 4 AKs because of the longer Teachings chain.

The third Curse is in the main now, because I found I was boarding in either it or the Spire Golems every game. With Brainstorm I can shuffle it away if I find it too early. Also, some decks run outs in the main (Kor Sanctifiers, etc) and so I want to make sure I can actually win. The Magma Spray is in there for annoying cards like Young Wolf. I ended up running both Terminate and Doom Blade (at the cost of a second Staggershock) because I've been in situations where only one will suit (regen, pro-red, no red source, etc) and would like outs to both.

I caved and bought some Pyroblasts because I got fed up with losing to Delver game 2 and 3 when they bring in all their extra countermagic. Postboard, I have a crap ton of cards against them now (Spire Golem, Electrickery, 'blast), although all three serve dual purposes versus other decks. The Spire Monitor is just a fourth Spire Golem, because I found that sometimes Golem would die to the same hate they bring in for Curse (Disenchant effects) and I wanted one that was impervious to that hate. Plus, it's tutorable.

I'm thinking of going up to 25 land, and possibly also working in a Traumatic Visions (I like having the flexibility to Teachings for a land, and it effectively brings the count to 26 while having utility lategame). I'm finding many of the games I lose are because of not drawing enough lands, and now with Accumulated Knowledge it makes it harder to hit land drops than with Think Twice (you need multiple copies to see as many cards, which is usually via a Teachings chain).

Thoughts?

Quote from obZen

So I've become very unhappy with the manabase of grixis even with 8 gates and 4 panoramas. So I've moved on to straight UB. Here's what I'm playing with right now.

Really? I've never had a problem with mine when playing 8 Terramorphics. I can only surmise that it's because you need to draw a specific one of the two types of guildgates to find the colour you need, whereas any Terramorphic will fetch you any missing colour. Maybe try that setup before you abandon Grixis altogether?

Quote from obZen

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures:7 3 Sea Gate Oracle 1 Faerie Invaders 2 Mulldrifter 1 Spire Monitor Spells:27 4 Accumulated Knowledge 1 Agony Warp 4 Counterspell 3 Diabolic Edict 3 Doom Blade 1 Grim Harvest 1 Prohibit 1 Crypt Incursion 4 Exclude 1 Wail of the Nim 2 Evincar's Justice 2 Mystical Teachings	Lands:26 1 Bojuka Bog 2 Dimir Aqueduct 4 Dimir Guildgate 14 Island 5 Swamp

Ins I might have to deem your question of why not play 4 exclude a very good one. I'm trying it out as you can see.

I quite like your list, I'm going to have to try it out when I get the time.

One minor thing, is there a reason for the singleton Prohibit? I was thinking Deprive or Faerie Trickery might be more useful in that slot (Deprive can bounce a Bojuka Bog for reuse against graveyard decks) unless you wanted it for the single blue cost.

EDIT: Actually I only just noticed that you've dropped to two Teachings. Can you explain your reasoning?

I've been rather busy lately and haven't had much time to test, but I have been experimenting with a list revolving around Curse of the Bloody Tome after reading an article describing a straight UB control list in pauper, except I'm running it in a Teachings shell. I tried putting it in a back-to-basics, plain UB list.

This is what I started with:



The 4 Deprive is an experiment. The original article suggested running 4, as it was based on an MUC shell and ran 21 lands with 8 one-mana cantrips. I want to see how much tempo loss they actually cause when played on turn 2-4; I suspect they're not as bad as they seem on paper, and very early testing supports this. I'm likely to end up dropping to 3 or 2 and adding some Prohibits, but they're staying at 4 for the moment until I prove that it's too many. They are, after all, an unconditional hard counter for 2.

The sideboard is in flux so I haven't put it here, but I'm playing 3-4 Spire Golems, another suggestion from the article. My reasoning is that aside from the decks against which they're simply a wall, any removal most opponents are running would be cut upon seeing me win with Curses maindeck, thus making them a very viable alternate win condition if Curse is too slow. They're testing very well.

I'm also working on a version that merges this with the more traditional lists.

I'll try to keep this very direct and somewhat brief:

• Counterspell is infinitely better than Mana Leak or any other conditional counter in the lategame. If you're playing a purist draw-go control deck that's angling to control the game until super late, you don't want cards that are dead by the time you get there. Prohibit is a far, far better alternative, although cards like Deprive, Miscalculation and Condescend work too, as they either still function very late or are able to at least cycle.
• Counterspell is very easily castable if you build the manabase correctly and play with the UU restriction in mind. I will almost always fetch for an Island on a turn 1 Terramorphic, unless I either desperately need Red/Black to cast a removal spell, or lack any other fetchlands and need to play it turn 1 because of my hand (eg. to maintain T2 Prohibit, T3 Exclude). You will rarely need more than one of each off-colour basic land in play, so when they rest of your lands are Islands you will have no trouble casting it.
• Some lists do run Brainstorm or Preordain, but you have to keep in mind that they do not provide card advantage. If you're trying to trade one-for-one with your opponent for the entire game and outlast them over 20 turns, you want draw spells that actually gain you CA. They're not bad, but make sure you run them alongside some spells that draw you cards. I've found in my testing they're unnecessary though — I'd rather draw multiple cards than simply see them.
• Sprout Swarm isn't for "board advantage", it's a win-condition that is completely impervious to removal, tutorable with Teachings and totally inevitable against anything not running counterspells. Once the game is locked up winning is just a formality, so you might as well have a tutorable singleton that's almost impossible to interact with, especially at such a minor cost to the manabase (a single Forest and 8 Fetches instead of Gates).
• Curse of the Pierced Heart was an experiment. I then found Curse of the Bloody Tome, which is a faster clock, more inevitable, easier to cast, and usually only requires one copy in play. It's just another option for a win condition that's very hard to interact with.
• The reason for playing Flash creatures is that they're tutorable with Teachings.
• While you do present an interesting argument for Delvers, I think either Errant Ephemeron or Spire Golem is simply better for what you're trying to accomplish. The Ephemeron is a faster clock and is more resilient (4 toughness) and consistent (doesn't need to flip) and the golem has excellent duality as a blocker against aggro, as well as tending to stonewall opposing Delver decks.
• Cut the Mana Leaks, they are terrible in a deck that aims to go extremely late. Counterspell is so much better, and a correctly built manabase should be able to handle it.
• Your list looks very vulnerable to spot removal. Delvers are extremely easy to kill when they're the only creature in your deck and you're not running any hard counters. I understand Grim Harvest recurs them, but Delver seems extremely out of place when you consider its main advantage is being extremely aggressive and able to attack for 3 as early as turn 2. They do work, but I'm not a fan.

Also, your manabase is terrible. You're trying to run a 3-colour deck with zero fixing whatsoever. At the very least, play 6-8 fetchlands. You don't need more than 2-3 copies of your off-colour lands as you rarely need more than one in play (especially if you decide to run Spire Golem and/or Counterspell).

Quote from i-never-smile

Mulldrifter is really awkward in permission decks. All you have to do is play with the card for a few games to quickly get that feeling.

Is there really any reason to play less than 4 Exclude right now?

Thank god someone agrees. I cut them last night for a couple of Spire Golems and some extra draw and it feels a million times better.

I also went up to 3 Exclude, but now that you mention it I suppose there isn't really much reason not to go to 4; every deck has creatures you want to counter. I'll try it out and see if it feels like too many.

Also, I was testing out a couple of possible ouside-the-box cards for a few matchups:

Curse of the Pierced Heart: After twice facing a UB control deck that mills as its primary win-con (they had so much removal I decked myself before I could kill them, even with Grim Harvest) I wanted to try out something they couldn't interact with, that wasn't Sprout Swarm (sometimes it gets milled, Duressed, or you lose the counterwar). The theory is if you can stick more than one, you'll easily win before you deck yourself, and it's only a two mana threat so you can more easily fight the counterwar. You could conceivably maindeck them, as literally no deck can interact with them G1, and almost no-one G2 either. I don't think it's worth the 4 sideboard slots at this stage, and I'm not sure if they work in smaller numbers (having just one is pitifully slow) but it's something to keep in mind.

I saw Razorfin Hunter in the UR control thread, and it seems really sweet against Delver, WW and other decks that run a lot of X/1s, including those Elves lists I've seen running around occasionally. Hopefully they'll have boarded out what little removal they have, and this guy can just go to town. I haven't had the chance to test him out as of yet, but on paper it seems effective.

Here's where I'm at now:



The Mnemonic Walls are mainly there in case Sprout Swarm gets Duressed or something. I went up to 4 Prohibits as my main gripe with them was that they couldn't counter MBC's 3 drop creatures, but with 4 Excludes this should be less of a problem. I may cut one or two for some Condescends or something though, depending on how they play.

How about this for a Grixis list?



I'm not sure if I want to run a maindeck Spire Monitor or not, possibly over either a Mulldrifter or a counterspell. I gave the list a couple of quick games in the tourney practice room, and most times I drew a Mulldrifter it felt a little awkward, so I'm definitely iffy about having 4 - on the flip side though, I don't want to have to wait and pray that I draw one. Maybe Spire Monitor is indeed the solution as it's both tutorable and doesn't tap me out on my turn.

A note about Crypt Incursion: this card was recently brought to my attention and I began running it as a singleton in my Grixis tapout list (which does run teachings), to great success. Simply put, the card is insane in the right situation, and there's no way I'd leave home without one maindecked. It's saved my ass many times, turning a tight game into a complete blowout by gaining 15+ in one hit and putting the aggro player into an impossible slot. It's definitely dead weight sometimes (excuse the pun :P) but it's well worth it.

Not to mention it hoses random creature graveyard strategies as well.

Quote from Honor Basquiat

I've been testing out Faerie Invaders, it's working very well as a finisher. It has great synergy with Rewind and it also can be tutored with Mystical Teachings.

I also want to test Essence Scatter.

Faerie Invaders/Spire Monitor/whatever is definitely fine if you want a tutorable finisher, as long as you have Grim Harvest or something backing it up. I would definitely run it alongside some a Errant Ephemerons, though, as you only need one copy to tutor for and Ephemeron is a superior creature, plus you want some redundancy in case it gets milled or something (which is quite possible; I've seen a couple of [admittedly bad] UB control decks with a dose of mill running around).

Quote from obZen

I took it as such because my list is the only list that was doing that, so I could only help but to see it as a comment towards my 75. I have swapped the thunders out for Flame Slash, and it feels a lot better. I also added a set of grottos to the landbase, and that has helped quite a bit. My tron matchup is pretty horrid with my current 60, so i'm going to try 3 earth rift and a singleton Faultgrinder instead of 3 seas and an earth rift. Hopefully this weekend i can get into some 8 mans and share how it goes. until then, Happy New Year!

Happy new year to you too, and to all

I still don't think LD is the way to go in this matchup. All it does is slow them down in getting Tron online, it doesn't disable it (unless you can nab all 4 copies of one piece, which I doubt given they're not tutorable off Teachings). Not to mention, Earth Rift forces you to tap out for a whopping seven to flash it back, which isn't a great idea in a draw-go deck full of counterspells - especially against a deck that can resolve something like Crusher if they get lucky with topdecks. IMO, we should focus on answering their threats, by bringing in a few extra hard counters (Exclude, etc.) and some additional hard spot removal. If you have more answers in your deck than they have threats, plus you run a set of teachings, they won't actually be able to win, and it doesn't matter if they have Tron online or not. Then it's just a simple matter of Mulldrifter beats.

Also, I can assure you the modern versions do not run Grim Harvest. I'm surprised you haven't faced many/any; I've run into heaps of them recently (and beat handily by following my advice :P).

Quote from obZen

Comments concerning your list:

In my testing Capsize is extremely too slow without the old Post mana engine to be considered a win condition or even a removal spell in general as there are a lot of ETB effects.

Fair enough. Thus far I've never needed to use it, and that's probably why.

Quote from obZen

Havenwood Wurm, and Sprout Swarm are an unecessary strain on the manabase imo, even though you can teachings for them.

Quote from urdjur

I agree that green is unnecessary. Even splashing red is probably suboptimal, unless it's a very small splash and you just do it for SB options (pyro and artifact removal). What seems generally bad is half black removal and half red removal and then a Terminate to really complicate things.

The main reason I'm playing the Sprout Swarm + Havenwood Wurm package is for space; it lets me run a higher density of answers than if I were running a number of Ephemerons/etc. I basically wanted Sprout Swarm as the primary win condition and added Havenwood Wurm as a backup in case it becomes difficult or impossible to protect the Sprout Swarm for some reason; sometimes resolving a single spell is a lot easier than the same spell 7 times.

Also, I was taking a leaf out of I-N-S's book from a couple of pages back, where he was playing a similar 4-colour list, sans Mulldrifters.

EDIT: Oops, he didn't post it in this thread. There's a link to the list here though. (BEAFy is I-N-S's mtgo name, which he confirmed a couple of pages back.) I know it's old, but I was using it as a starting point.

Quote from obZen

If you really want to splash green or play BUG the superior of the 2 will be determined by whether or not you're running a Grim Harvest engine or a Ghostly Flicker engine which I see neither in this version.

The reason for not running a Grim Harvest in the Skred list is the lack of Mulldrifters. I didn't feel it was necessary to run it with just one creature in the deck. Although I could definitely be wrong about this, I haven't had any trouble winning with that package thus far in my limited testing.

Quote from obZen

your lack of Mulldrifter in this version and only playing 3 in the other is a little disheartening, please play more of them. Everything else looks fairly stock seeing older lists. I don't personally like the 3-4 cmc removal and permission, but that's just me.

I ran no Mulldrifters in the Skred version because I was angling for a close-to 100% instant-speed build as an experiment (other than the Sandstorms, which I added later), hence the Forbidden Alchemies to replace them. It was probably a mistake, as I generally have more than enough mana late-game to cast a Mulldrifter without tapping out, but I'm still not sure that 4 copies is necessarily correct. I understand how powerful the card is, but before you reach that lategame stage you don't want to force yourself to tap out, and so some split between it and some other instant-speed draw (Forbidden Alchemy) still seems better.

Quote from obZen

Here's my version of what I have been calling "Snow-Go", and it's pure Grixis. I'm a little iffy on the manabase as I'm not sure how many non-snow lands I really want, so I've been playing it safe by playing all basics to maximize the skred power which can be super important in matchups like affinity where you need to get skred on 4 to start stabilizing. The Grixis Panorama are pretty awesome they let you keep up Prohibit mana on turn 2 and if you don't have to use it then you just fetch what you need. the SB options are pretty unfair in this meta as they can really precisely hit all the top dogs and a very mana efficient cost. Being able to play both Pyro/Hydro blast, Gorilla Shaman, and Earth rift can really tighten your sb games against the meta.

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
//Creatures 4 Mulldrifter 3 Sea Gate Oracle 1 Ulamog's Crusher //Spells 4 Counterspell 4 Prohibit 4 Preordain 4 Skred 2 Rolling Thunder 3 Mystical Teachings 1 Diabolic Edict 1 Electrickery 1 Grim Harvest 1 Memory Lapse 1 Negate 1 Pyroblast 1 Terminate	//Lands 4 Grixis Panorama 12 Snow-Covered Island 6 Snow-Covered Mountain 2 Snow-Covered Swamp	//Sideboard 1 Diabolic Edict 1 Earth Rift 1 Electrickery 2 Gorilla Shaman 2 Hydroblast 1 Negate 2 Pyroblast 1 Shattering Pulse 1 Shred Memory 3 Spreading Seas

Why Rolling Thunder? If Capsize is too slow without a Post engine, the same argument could certainly be made for this, not to mention it being a sorcery.

Also, given your SB you seem overly concerned about Tron; specifically, attacking its manabase. Maybe I've just been playing against bad opponents, but the matchup feels pretty easy if you just focus on dealing with their 6 or so actual threats (Marauder, Crusher, Rolling Thunder) — otherwise, they can't actually kill you, and you just win with recurring Mulldrifters (or Sprout Swarm in my case) which they can't deal with, no matter how much mana they've got. I might be wrong, but I'd just board in a couple more counters and hard removal, to get around them bringing in protection of their own.

Quote from urdjur

I don't think Mulldrifter is that mandatory though, especially if you're going for the "MUbC" variant that wants UU or UB open at all times. There's a very strong advantage to be able to play removal, counter or draw on turn 2+ and only choosing which one after your opponent's play.

This was exactly my thinking.

Quote from urdjur

OTOH, I think there's great truth to JustSin's observation, that you can find as good draw in creatures as you can in instant/sorceries (while this is not the case with removal), and you need creatures anyway to win, making Mulldrifter the most efficient win con in terms of space economy (though you still need something like Grim Harvest or Ulamog/counters to back it up).

I do agree somewhat (and subscribe to this philosophy in building my other tap-out Grixis Control list, although that's another story), but in this kind of a pure draw-go deck angling for the ultra-lategame, I don't know you necessarily need more than a couple of threats. Running some number of Mulldrifters + Grim Harvest is possibly superior, but you still want something else as backup anyway, be it Ulamog or Sprout Swarm.

Quote from obZen

Let's See:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
1 Diabolic Edict 1 Electrickery 1 Pyroblast 1 Terminate 4 Skred 2 Rolling Thunder

The removal is actually exactly 85/15 if you're counting red mana symbols to black but who's counting. Most importantly it's a 1-of i've obviously conceded to the fact that it is mana intensive, but clearly Teminate is better than Doom Blade if you have the colors to do so. Skred is very PtE-esque in this format, and is worth the splash due to the fact that it leads to less dead cards in a variety of matchups, and is cost efficient.

To second this, you're obviously running black anyway for Teachings, so having some incidental black in the removal suite isn't really detracting from your manabase.

I've recently been trying out both a UBg and a URbg (Skred) version in the tournament practice room to some success. I'm not sure at this stage which version is better; the Skred version does seem more powerful but the manabase isn't exactly the most stable.

The two Swirling Sandstorms are an experiment, and they seem to be testing well. Over a long game you're guaranteed to pretty easily hit threshold, and it's a very nice reset button to be able to hold in reserve in case things ever get out of hand. Unfortunately it's not tutorable, which is why I'm running two copies.

Quote from Honor Basquiat

If I were to just play UB what kind of win condition should I rely on? Is there something better than Errant Ephemeron? I would love a non creature win condition if possible.

This is a rough draft of the list I'm working on, how does it look?

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Advantage (12) 4 Preordain 4 Mystical Teachings 4 Omenspeaker 4 Mana Leak 4 Counterspell 2 Rewind 2 Exclude	2 Diabolic Edict 2 Disfigure 2 Agony Warp 1 Capsize 1 Into The Roil 1 Crypt Incursion	3 Errant Ephemeron 13 Island 5 Swamp 4 Dimir Guildgate 2 Evolving Wilds

As far as I'm aware, there's no real non-creature win condition in straight UB. You could quite conceivably splash green for Sprout Swarm with a single Forest and a couple more Terramorphics, if you really want to.

A big flaw in your list IMO is the almost complete lack of actual card drawing. Preordain and Omenspeaker don't actually provide card advantage, merely selection. In that list, your only actual method of gaining CA is chaining Teachings, which is worrying when you want to be trading one-for-one non-stop with an opponent over a long game.

Sea Gate Oracle is vastly superior to Omenspeaker, as it gains you CA by providing a blocker plus a card. Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy are both quality instant-speed drawing choices, as is Accumulated Knowledge (though it's not a personal favourite of mine). Another option is simply to run Mulldrifters, although with 12 counterspells you probably don't want a sorcery-speed draw engine.

Mana Leak seems pretty bad in this kind of list. Considering you're playing for the ultra-lategame, you don't want to be playing a counterspell that's dead past the first 6 turns or so. There are plenty of other turn 2 counterspells that are more effective lategame — Prohibit, Rune Snag, Miscalculation and Condescend to name a few. Also, I'd include at least a single copy of Doom Blade (or something similar, like Eyeblight's Ending/Rend Flesh) in case you ever need to take out a stray fattie and can't clear the way for Diabolic Edict.

Some of the first cards that come to mind are things like Bloodbraid Elf and Path to Exile/STP, but now that I think of it, Tendrils of Agony would probably be one of the most impactful cards you could downgrade. Kitchen Finks would be number two.

That's ignoring Skullclamp, of course.

Hey everyone! I'm making a grand return to this archetype. In the previous standard format, I was heavily playing a similar version of this archetype to some success, and spearheading forum discussions. I've not revisited the deck since rotation, but I'm going to start now. I'm currently doing some preliminary testing of Grey Aven's list in the primer, and I will post my own version and my views in due time.

Quote from Yorutenchi

An Idea I've entertained but not put to much through into would be a possible 5 color Burning vengance variant. Altar of the lost allows for flashbacks at least to be of all 5 colors. That seems to open up to all the different cheap flashback cards.

Or is it to slow or suckish? No artifact hate bouncing around at the moment....

Altar of the Lost is bad.

There is no need for a fifth colour to begin with. Four colours is bad enough, and if there wasn't a very compelling reason to be playing four (Lingering Souls, among others), three would provide a more stable manabase. Fewer colours, unless there is a big gain in power level, is always going to be better because of colour consistency. Of all the flashback cards in standard, the only two involving green that are remotely worth playing (Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation) can be easily replaced by Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere without adding a fifth colour.

Secondly, the card itself is horrid, because it only provides mana for flashbacks, while also being expensive and slow. Simply put, you would rather a land. Given that it is only available to cast the second half of roughly half your spells, it will be used a very small amount of the time, and it is unusable for the majority of mana consumption in the deck. It only becomes more useful in the later stages of the game; however, at this point the deck will have access to a relative abundance of mana, rendering it unnecessary.

Quote from MCC1701

I was going to ask, what are your thoughts about Bonfire of the Damned? Do you see it worth it even though the miracle cost means almost nothing in this deck?

Unless you miracle it, it's an extremely overcosted sweeper. The deck doesn't need anything beyond Supreme Verdict and Terminus, and if it does I would always play Mizzium Mortars over Bonfire because it functions equally effectively as cheap spot removal, whereas Bonfire requires a huge mana investment to do much at all.

Two of Bonfire's more endearing elements for an aggressive creature-based deck — its one-sidedness, and the damage to an opponent — are completely irrelevant for this deck. Sure, a sweeper that incidentally damages an opponent is great, but not if it leaves half their board alive, most of the time, while also costing a ton of mana. Being a creatureless deck, the fact it doesn't hit your creatures can also be safely dismissed.

Lastly, the deck has a multitude of ways to draw Bonfire without triggering Miracle. This further curtails its usefulness, essentially relegating it to sheer luck. A card whose playability depends on sheer luck is not a sound prospect for a competitive deck aiming for consistency.

Quote from Acclimation

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4x Clifftop Retreat 1x Dragonskull Summit 2x xvolving Wilds 3x Glacial Fortress 3x Island 1x Isolated Chapel 4x Mountain 2x Plains 4x Sulfur Falls 1x Swamp 4x Burning Vengeance 3x Oblivion Ring	1x Blue Sun's Zenith 3x Desperate Ravings 2x Dissipate 2x Forbidden Alchemy 4x Think Twice 2x Day of Judgment 2x Devil's Play 4x Lingering Souls 3x Pillar of Flame 3x Slagstorm 2x Sun Titan	Sideboard (15) 2x Phantasmal Image 2x Ratchet Bomb 4x Timely Reinforcements 3x Celestial Purge 2x Surgical Extraction 2x Negate

Moving forward, then this should be a bit stronger. Sun Titan acts as an extra win condition, and pitching O-rings and BVs to Forbidden Alchemy or Desperate Ravings is no longer an issue. I added a second Devil's Play as well.

I'm rather skeptical of Sun Titan in this list. You have a total of 7 targets in the list — seven! — and a grand total of two ways to consistently get them in the yard. That really doesn't sound like a recipe for success...

Sun Titan's only strength (over another win-con) is gaining card advantage by recurring stuff turn after turn. In fact, the only reason it sees any play at all in Standard is because of its interaction with Phantasmal Image — that's in a deck playing 4 Alchemies, with a target that pretty frequently hits the bin, and that can completely take over the game out of nowhere. When's your BV going to hit the graveyard? O-ring? Pretty much never. And even if it does, and you recur it, so what? Yeah, you gained a card, but I'd much rather have a persistent, more impactful threat than getting back a single BV I accidentally threw to a Ravings. BV, while the 'cornerstone' of the archetype, isn't — and should never be — the be-all and end-all of the deck. It might feel advantageous to be able to throw your enchantments, safe with the knowledge they can come back if you need them, but in the end Sun Titan is simply going to be inconsistent and ineffectual.

On the flip side, playing something like Wurmcoil Engine is going to far more consistently gain you an advantage. In most cases, the 6-points-a-turn lifegain is going to very quickly put the game out of reach — two hits is probably game against an aggro deck. Not only that, but it's very resistant to removal, short of an Oblivion Ring (which, incidentally, is one less O-ring aimed at BV).

Quote from Acclimation

I couldn't find room for spot removal (Dismember), but considering most of the creatures in my meta are weak to Pillar, I should be fine. Even if I dropped the Pillars to the side, I would want Snapcaster back in to get more value out of Dismember.

It's obviously meta-dependant. Restoration Angel in particular is something you really want to watch for, and some of the newer breeds of Delver are playing Hero of Bladehold — if that ever hits you're in a world of hurt. I just prefer having diversity in my removal suite.

Quote from Acclimation

I also couldn't find room for Sphere of the Suns, but I think I'll be fine with out them (they would give even more targets for Sun Titan though).

Just try them out! Cut, say, an O-ring, a Pillar (they're reasonably flexible slots), and a land (you're adding mana sources) and play 3 in the main. I'm a huge fan of the card, and I honestly don't think the 4-colour mana is workable without them.

Quote from Acclimation

The Slagstorms could be Whipflares, but I think the extra 1 damage+ no artifact clause make it a safer option.

I didn't feel safe cutting all of the counterspells, and I prefer having Dissipate as my counter over Mana Leak.

Side board is more or less slapped together. Since we're in White, there's no reason not to run some number of Purge and Timely Reinforcements. Ratchet Bomb is a nice catch-all and comes back with Sun Titan. Phantasmal Image works great with Sun Titan, as well as legend ruling against reanimator style decks. The Negate is questionable, but I think it would be worth it against control match-ups.

All fair enough. The sideboard is alright.

Quote from Acclimation

In fact, I think shaving a few slots would give me room for the Snapcasters I cut, and then I can get more mileage out of the spells I would bring in- Snapcaster on Timely is fantastic, Surgical+ Snap can be back breaking for a few decks, and of course, comboing with Sun Titan to gain more value.

Maybe something like this would be a stronger sideboard:

DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
2x Phantasmal Image 3x Snapcaster Mage 3x Timely Reinforcements 2x Celestial Purge 2x Negate 2x Surgical Extraction 1x Flex Slot

The last slot can be anything to fight the meta, whether it be Smelt for Artifact breaking, Revoke Existance, more gy hate in the form of Tormod's or Spellbomb, more Purges for Zombies, or sweepers if there's a variety of swarm decks. I almost want to make room for a couple of Torpor Orb, since etb effects are all over the place.

But what are you cutting from the main to make room for those Snapcasters? You'll need slots you want to vacate, remember. I agree that Snapcaster is fantastic with Timely/Surgical — an interaction I'd admittedly forgotten about — but I don't know I'd play more than a supplementary copy in the board, simply because it takes up a lot of board space.

Also, I'm not a huge fan of Torpor Orb, because it costs a whole card to make some of your opponents cards lose some of their value — they still end up being half a card (or more; eg. Restoration Angel, Thragtusk).

Quote from Acclimation

Surprisingly, I'm the only one running Pillar of Flame in my meta (as of last FNM), so I could probably get away with Firewing Phoenix, but like you said, an extra Devil's Play or Wurmcoil Engine or Sun Titan would win the game much better than the Phoenix. If it had 1 more toughness and a less restrictive/mana intensive recur, I think it would be a solid creature.

My point still stands. It's ridiculously costly to recur repeatedly, and O-ring still kills it. It contributes nothing bar its body, which no other viable win-con we have does. For now, there's a billion better alternatives, and post-rotation I'd much rather Gisela or Nicol Bolas, or something else. If you want to dodge removal, Devil's Play is by far your best bet.

Quote from Trapezoid

jadencamelot: Thanks for the advice on my deck, I think the sweepers and O-rings main deck would indeed help alot.Im gonna make a few adjustments and see how I do. The idea of cutting BV from my list entirely is a bit undesirable tho!

No problem!

Why is cutting BV 'undesirable'? Can you explain exactly why you want it in your deck, and what it's achieving?

The trouble with BV is that it's a 3-drop that has no impact on the board. If you're playing it lategame in a control deck, then fine, but you want to be flashing back spells early, and you have a curve to hit. It doesn't actually achieve anywhere near as much as, say, a Slagstorm, an O-ring, or another bomb.

Honestly, I think you should just try out my list as-is — if not in paper, on LackeyCCG or Cockatrice — and look at its consistency compared to your version. Then, try playing a version with BV, and compare them.

This is going way back to my original Tainted Vengeance school of thought. Actually, you're pretty much following my exact thought processes 6 months ago.

It's a nice list, but I do have a couple of comments:

• I highly recommend 2-3 Sphere of the Suns main. It really does help the mana out a lot.
• Snapcaster is not going to be effective at all with that few actual 'targets' (sweepers are inefficient because they kill the Snap). I'd look at cutting 1-2 at least, if not all of them (and consequently playing the 6th sweeper).
• Your manabase looks pretty good. I would have built it almost identically.
• You lack answers to Restoration Angel (and similar cards, eg. Hero). I'd play at least 1-2 Doom Blade-esque cards (Go for the Throat, Dismember)
• You need at least another win-con; either the second Devil's Play, or a Wurmcoil/Gideon/Elesh/Consecrated Sphinx/etc. I'd personally go for the Devil's Play because it blanks their spot removal and synergises more with Lingering Souls (the token attacks help it out a lot), but either approach will work.

Quote from APLT

what about thundermaw hellkite ?

impacts the board soon as it drops, its evasive and has haste.

i kind of feel the same way, havent taken it to any fnm's yet but through playtesting seems like this deck needs some type of creature as an alternative win con

It's not bad, but remember that it is vulnerable to spot removal. I know this is the 'dies to removal' argument, but all of the other win-cons we play are either resistant or impervious to removal (Nicol Bolas, Tamiyo, Wurmcoil), or have a little bit more of an impact when they hit and/or utility (Consecrated Sphinx, Gideon, Elesh Norn).

Post rotation it will likely be stronger, however.

This is not the first time this approach has been tried. Seeing as this is the competitive forum, the premise is that you want to improve your deck, so I'll give you my thoughts.

In your deck, Burning Vengeance is actually bad — and I suggest you cut it.

Why? The only reason BV is playable is because we're playing a control shell: the ideal superarchetype to house the kind of card that needs a lot of cards, mana, and time investment to be effective. If you get one flashback trigger off BV, it's a really really bad Shock. If you get two, it's still terrible — you've had to bend over backwards and warp your whole deck to get a mediocre, slow 'card advantage' that is extremely inefficient. But when you can reliably get 4+ BV triggers off, the card suddenly becomes a highly effective board control engine that doubles as a win condition. The catch is, to get enough use out of it consistently, you need to see a lot of cards, a lot of mana, and consequently, a lot of time.

Our gameplan is to use powerful control engines (sweepers, cheap spot removal, counters) to impede an opponents early development, and allow the BV-fueled draw engine to take over in the lategame. Because of the nature of control, and of our lists, this adequately fulfils those conditions of cards, mana and time investment. Hence, we get a lot of use out of the card.

The key difference is that your deck wants your BV engine in a more midgame context, and it is simply less effective in the midgame than the lategame. You want to be relying on a Lingering Souls/Unburial Rites/Flayer/Sun Titan engine, not on a Burning Vengeance engine. While it might seem effective, if you cut BV altogether — and Tibalt, but I'll get to him in a sec — you gain 4 slots which you can use to more effectively leverage the very powerful Titan engine you've got.

Tibalt... I'm sorry to be so harsh, but the card is actually almost worse than Gravecrawler (and that's really saying something). He contributes nothing to the board, he has zero impact on the game whatsoever, is actually card disadvantage, and is simply a wasted 4 slots that could be Sphere of the Suns, or some other actually worthwhile card. His +1 is not a Desperate Ravings — it's one half of a really bad Faithless Looting that doesn't let you choose what to dump, which is critical. His -4 is occasionally a Char, but you have to screw over your hand to get there. If you ever hit his -6, your opponent doesn't have a board you want to steal.

However, if you were to cut BV and Tibalt, you get an extra 8 slots. This gives you a ton more flexibility. You have the room to play Sphere and Solemn, which will help out a ton, and you can play more board control — something which your current list is sorely lacking.

Speaking of board control: you have zero sweepers, zero O-rings, and 4 copies of Geistflame and Sever apiece! Sever is agonisingly slow in this deck, and while it'd be okay as a 1- or 2-of, there are far better, more efficient options. Similarly, Geistflame isn't very effective here, because playing a sweeper will clean up all the little guys, and there aren't a huge number of x/1s in the format like there used to be (plus the flashback is rather expensive for a deck like this). You positively need 4 sweepers as a minimum; I'd play a split of Whipflare/Slagstorm and Day of Judgment (avoiding Terminus for obvious reasons), depending on your other colour considerations. O-rings and a mix of Pillar/Dismember/Go for the Throat/Tragic Slip should replace your spot removal suite.

A list something more like this would be more effective:

Quote from Acclimation

I've thought about it, I like the cmc and the body it provides. If I can get my hands on one, I would give it a shot.

I've also been looking at Firewing Phoenix, simply as a recurring beater.

@Trapezoid

That's an interesting list. If anything, I would recommend using 4 Desperate Ravings and finding room to splash U for the flashback cost. You will dig through your deck much faster, if that's the route you are going for.

The trouble with Firewing Phoenix is that, while it's resistant to removal, it's not exactly a humongous body, and it's a rather steep cost to recur. My opinion is that you're better off just playing something like Devil's Play that simply wins the game outright, or Wurmcoil Engine if you want a removal-proof beater.

Quote from APLT

i was looking at that (also archwing dragon) but the consensus seems to be that it is just to mana intensive. also with pillar of flame on the rise due to undying creatures or any sort of graveyard hate which hurts this deck anyways i dont know if there would be that much upside to playing him

Pillar of Flame is a very good point. I'd just avoid it altogether. We have so many good win-cons available as it is; there's no point trying to find new ones.

And Archwing Dragon is horrid. Devil's Play does the same thing, but better, and it doesn't die to Doom Blade.