Firstly, thanks to everyone in this thread. I came back to the game after a 4 year break, and it was great to pick up this deck.
I've been running with Plunge Into Darkness because I don't have my Spoils yet (and always loved Plunge). Besides the pay life vs lose life, it seems like it could be slightly better. I find that I use it to just dig, frequently for 5. I will almost certainly find a combo piece I need, a cantrip, or a protection/stall card. I was wondering if anyone else had tried it, and how they liked it vs Spoils.
I'm not advocating that I think it is better, I think it's a different card, with different use than Spoils. I am curious to know if anyone else has tried it. My Spoils should be showing up in the mail today along with Gemstone Mines, been using Tendo (ugh!), so I'll be trying it out for sure. I love the Lab Maniac + Spoils thing.
I run both. Crusader main, Lightcaster side. Running vs. a good Vamps player, he'll save the bolts for them. Lightcaster does her job when she comes in, all the rest is just gravy.
When playing this deck, it is critical that you place the counter on Quest when you cast. Don't search, don't say to yourself, "Oh I'll put 3 counters on after I do the Glint Hawk/Skyfisher bounce." Annonce the spell, and put the counter on Quest, then worry about the rest of the effects on the stack, the cards in your hand, or what and/or how-many of whatever you are going to search for in your library.
Just put the counter on Quest. There is no response your opponent can make which alters the trigger. It's on cast. Place the counter on cast.
Bonehoard definitely won at least 3 games for me. I cannot tell you how much this screws over control decks that board sweep...especially U/B.
Bonehoard is fantastic. My equipment package is Body & Mind, Bonehoard, and 2x Argentium in main deck. Bonehoard is the #1 reason why I stick to my Outfitter/Mystic instead of going Battle cry (I play the WW version)
Glad someone else is really seeing Bonehoard shine.
I think i really only need 1 FAF as most of the time my hand has already been played or there isnt enough lands on the table to warrent needing to untap.
The thing about Feast & Famine is that you always have the mana to re-equip it to a blocker. I think it belongs as 1-of in sideboard, but I can see maindecking it in some metas.
I think its more of the fact that the mono-white build (Karsten's) that had over 20 points at Paris didn't run Mystic, showing that its not an auto-include.
Karsten's list was a near single-minded build with some brutal efficiency. He negated several of the disadvantages of Steppe Lynx by making his backup plan Battle cry. One of the weaknesses of WW quest is that you can get stuck with a bunch of tiny creatures that can't stand against a Flores-style ramp-to-giant-bomb-and-crush deck. Using Battle cry to mitigate this weakness is not a bad strategy as demonstrated in Paris.
Karsten traded one backup plan (Mystic + Outfitter) for another: Battle cry. Both the Mystic + Outfitter package, and the pure Battle cry plan still re-enforce the Quest plan, by providing creatures. Mystic is more of a toolbox strategy, Battle cry is an overwhelm strategy. They both address a weakness in the "Plan A" whilest *reinforcing* "Plan A"; Quest.
"Mystic isn't an auto-include" is very true, but you need a "Plan B". Your back-up plan should not weaken "Plan A". It should not introduce further, non-synergistic conditions to the deck.
Karsten's deck is a great example of "Plan B" supporting "Plan A" while providing alternate win. Trying to stuff in Tempered Steel just because you have a bunch of artifact creatures, is not.
You are now attempting to run 3 different combos: Hawk/Skyfisher + Ichor Wellspring, CryQuest, and Tempered Steel. And to fit those all in, you have cut almost every element that makes WW Quest reliable. You are running only 3 Squadron Hawks MB, without the Mystic/Sword package which is arguably one of the strongest toolboxes in standard right now.
Your deck-synergy runs in sets of 3-4 cards, instead of sharing synergy across the entire deck. At best, Ichor Wellspring is only marginally better, in this build, than Wall of Omens, only it doesn't give a Quest counter; Wall can be bounced by Skyfisher, just not Glint.
You have increased your vulnerability to both removal, and mass removal, and cut a primary means of defending against it: Mystic + Bonehoard. You will face-down your first resolved Jace and start crying about how "overpowered" it is because you have removed, or neglected to include, all methods of dealing with it.
Jinxed Idol was a reasonable thing to run against control before Phyrexian Revoker came along. It is no longer worth the sideboard slots. Revoker will shut down several decks, and provide a must-answer threat to Tezz and control that can come-in under counterspells on the play. You will make ramp cry with Revoker.
I'm just curious: are we going to now see a bunch of WW decks without Mystic because people don't want to pay 4x what the card used to cost? Mystic is no better than it used to be; it kicks ass. It has kicked ass. It will continue to kick ass. As I said many pages back, it will be played in every format for which it is legal, with the exception of Vintage. It's just sad to see people making WW builds without Mystic because they lacked the foresight to identify a perfect card before it got popular.
Here...this is an article from Star-City that should make things more clear. You can not build decks without understanding how mana curve relates to land count. At the very least look at the nice little chart and FOLLOW IT: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/890.html
I'm honestly not sure why it took this long for it to be priced this highly. It's a card that will be played for years in every format for which it is legal. It is incredibly powerful and versatile.
This is where you need squadron hawk. He'll block vampires and die without trading, enabling you to dodge the Highborn effect. You need to board in Lightcasters (they'll die to bolts, but they'll do their job) and board in Journey to Nowhere. I run maindeck Crusader, and that's nice too (will also eat bolts). I pull out Student of Warfare, because he's expensive bolt-bait, and I'm not as worried about getting a first-striker online because they'll get you with the Highborn anyway. And then usually 1-of a few cards I have 4 of to fit in the Journeys.
has anyone else tried mirran crusader in the new WW build? like i said, i tried it in place of lynx and i have been happy with results
Yes, and he is fantastic. I only run 2 or 3, though, *not* 4. He is expensive, at CMC3. You don't need to stick equip on him, sure it's nice if you get an armor on him, but otherwise he's 4 damage, and will plow straight through ramp. He'll block titans all day, and be unblockable.
In the mono White version isn't Student of Warfare better than Steppe Lynx I mean no fetch lands needed and it's so good whenever you draw it.
People would much rather imagine they'll consistently get hands/draws that make them feel uber with Lynx. Other than that, though, yes Student of Warfare is fantastic. He sides out for Firewalker when I am facing red, though. First strike is very useful vs. Kulthoa, but it is a risky investment of mana. YMMV.
I would argue in favor of WW Quest. The most expensive playset in the deck will likely be Stoneforge Mystic, and that card has, and will likely continue to see play in all formats, for which it is legal, but Vintage.
I've been running with Plunge Into Darkness because I don't have my Spoils yet (and always loved Plunge). Besides the pay life vs lose life, it seems like it could be slightly better. I find that I use it to just dig, frequently for 5. I will almost certainly find a combo piece I need, a cantrip, or a protection/stall card. I was wondering if anyone else had tried it, and how they liked it vs Spoils.
I'm not advocating that I think it is better, I think it's a different card, with different use than Spoils. I am curious to know if anyone else has tried it. My Spoils should be showing up in the mail today along with Gemstone Mines, been using Tendo (ugh!), so I'll be trying it out for sure. I love the Lab Maniac + Spoils thing.
Just put the counter on Quest. There is no response your opponent can make which alters the trigger. It's on cast. Place the counter on cast.
Glad someone else is really seeing Bonehoard shine.
The thing about Feast & Famine is that you always have the mana to re-equip it to a blocker. I think it belongs as 1-of in sideboard, but I can see maindecking it in some metas.
Karsten's list was a near single-minded build with some brutal efficiency. He negated several of the disadvantages of Steppe Lynx by making his backup plan Battle cry. One of the weaknesses of WW quest is that you can get stuck with a bunch of tiny creatures that can't stand against a Flores-style ramp-to-giant-bomb-and-crush deck. Using Battle cry to mitigate this weakness is not a bad strategy as demonstrated in Paris.
Karsten traded one backup plan (Mystic + Outfitter) for another: Battle cry. Both the Mystic + Outfitter package, and the pure Battle cry plan still re-enforce the Quest plan, by providing creatures. Mystic is more of a toolbox strategy, Battle cry is an overwhelm strategy. They both address a weakness in the "Plan A" whilest *reinforcing* "Plan A"; Quest.
"Mystic isn't an auto-include" is very true, but you need a "Plan B". Your back-up plan should not weaken "Plan A". It should not introduce further, non-synergistic conditions to the deck.
Karsten's deck is a great example of "Plan B" supporting "Plan A" while providing alternate win. Trying to stuff in Tempered Steel just because you have a bunch of artifact creatures, is not.
Your deck-synergy runs in sets of 3-4 cards, instead of sharing synergy across the entire deck. At best, Ichor Wellspring is only marginally better, in this build, than Wall of Omens, only it doesn't give a Quest counter; Wall can be bounced by Skyfisher, just not Glint.
You have increased your vulnerability to both removal, and mass removal, and cut a primary means of defending against it: Mystic + Bonehoard. You will face-down your first resolved Jace and start crying about how "overpowered" it is because you have removed, or neglected to include, all methods of dealing with it.
Jinxed Idol was a reasonable thing to run against control before Phyrexian Revoker came along. It is no longer worth the sideboard slots. Revoker will shut down several decks, and provide a must-answer threat to Tezz and control that can come-in under counterspells on the play. You will make ramp cry with Revoker.
I'm just curious: are we going to now see a bunch of WW decks without Mystic because people don't want to pay 4x what the card used to cost? Mystic is no better than it used to be; it kicks ass. It has kicked ass. It will continue to kick ass. As I said many pages back, it will be played in every format for which it is legal, with the exception of Vintage. It's just sad to see people making WW builds without Mystic because they lacked the foresight to identify a perfect card before it got popular.
Yes, and he is fantastic. I only run 2 or 3, though, *not* 4. He is expensive, at CMC3. You don't need to stick equip on him, sure it's nice if you get an armor on him, but otherwise he's 4 damage, and will plow straight through ramp. He'll block titans all day, and be unblockable.
People would much rather imagine they'll consistently get hands/draws that make them feel uber with Lynx. Other than that, though, yes Student of Warfare is fantastic. He sides out for Firewalker when I am facing red, though. First strike is very useful vs. Kulthoa, but it is a risky investment of mana. YMMV.
We can agree to disagree as long as you aren't dissing Squadron Hawk