Hey guys. I haven't posted in a while, but I just wanted to extend an invite to all here to join the Facebook Page I created. MTG - Modern Ad Nauseam. I give a shout out to this thread on the page. I even linked the primer here!
Hi guys. Pretty sure I posted here before, but I honestly cannot remember. I had a few things:
A. I created a Facebook page for this archetype. Please request it if you want! Imput would be fantastic. MTG - Modern Taking Turns
B. I'm still rocking the Mono-Blue and have been testing my A$$ off with it. I"m still like 75% win rate, which is good, but not great. Consistancy...
C. I know many are testing Ux Turns... Outside of Mono-U, what is showing the most promise?
D. What is the general consensus over the two different Bant Turns decks? I've been trying to wrap my head around it... No Howling Mine effects throws me off to be honest.
Quick note: Censor has been working GREAT for the deck. Early game it counters spells on curve (which is what the deck wants to do), and in the mid-late game, they cycle away for U... Also great knowing if a Temporal Mastery is on top... like if the opponent has a Goblin Guide in play, or if you played a Serum Visions the turn before...
Well, let me know about those points... I wanna be more active here, because I am hitting a plateau without getting some advise...
I forgot about Eidolon... The thing I'm concerned with is: This seems to be a glass cannon combo deck that is easily hated out... Similar to Legacy / Vintage DRedge. When the format isn't ready, it dominates. When the format is ready, it folds. I'd hate to SB Eidolons when there's like 0 matchups where it's useful. Even with Ad Nauseam (which I personally play as well), isn't beat by Eidolon. So, i'd be SBing 3+ cards that aren't even fast enough and only for 1 deck... That's what I'm worried about. Wasting spots.
-Yawg
Right now i'm testing out Hide // Seek again. In the Sram matchup, they run 2 Grapeshot at best. Some decks run only 1... So it's a faster play than Eidolon, etc... Second, I'm also testing with Rule of Law (over Eidolon), because Enchantments are harder to deal with than a creature is. Also, in the Ad Nauseam matchup, they run 2 wincons. One of them deals damage, but if you crack a Martyr or two, you should be out of Lightning Storm range. This leaves Lab Maniac that you can turn 2 remove from their decks.
So, here's what I'm seeing:
Ad Nauseam - Only 2 wincons. Remove 1 or both, and you won. Gaining large amnts of life takes the other one out.
Scapeshift - Gaining lots of life gives us the advantage. If they're Titan Valakut, we have the removal for the titans, and GQ for their valakuts... I think we're already positioned well enough for this matchup. Like tron, using GQ and Extirpate (which has been performing as well as Extraction for me... Budgetary reasons for MTGO) / Extraction on their land after GQing them spells death.
Cheeri0s - Between Rule of Law / Eidolon, all our removal spells, and Hide // Seek, I think it's manageable.
Speaking of combo decks, I just joined MTGO and have been playing against a LOT of that dumb Cherei0s deck (the one with Sram, Senior Edificer and Puresteel Paladin with all the useless equipment)... If I have a kill spell in hand, that's great, but if you don't have one in hand, there's almost nothing you can do when they drop the creature and start drawing like crazy... I know combo decks have been the Achille's heel of our deck, but I just don't know what to do... Is Leyline the right choice? Seems bad when they have Echoing Truth after SBing. Other than loading up with kill spells in the side, I can't think of anything that can stop it on turn 2... Even Ethersworn Canonist can't stop it if they play all their equipment the turn AFTER they drop the creature! (unless the triggers from the storm count don't get played cuz they're not artifacts...) Either way, any of you guys have some advise on this matchup? Mind you, i'm still on the WB version of Martyr. I'm thinking that other than kill spells, Ethersworn Canonist, Hide // Seek and Leyline of Sanctity are the two options (only cuz discard is solid black and there's no guarantee you'll have a turn 1 black source; AND it doesn't help towards the Martyr White count).
PS - Only played 2 Constructed Leagues so far. Not running Crucible of Worlds yet because I didn't wanna pay the 15 for a maybe card. Luckily haven't played Tron but once, and I won because I played a turn 1 Serra Ascendant followed by a turn 2 Martyr, pop, swing for 6 lifelink on turn 2... Sometimes that IS the right play. In the first league, I went 1-4 (and some losses are because I still haven't mastered the buttons (like, popping Martyr but hitting the pass button before revealing... :()) Second league, went 3-2 and again, one loss was because I passed the turn, rather than pass the attack step and couldn't fetch out my Squad Hawks before turn 2 where he played his Leonin Arbiter... Another in that game was where I didn't know you needed to click the Arbiter to pay the 2 to search for cards... Would have gotten all my quad Hawks there too...
So, I still think that WB is fine, I just am having troubles with the SB again...
1. Why Esper Charm in some SBs? What matchups does it come in for?
1b. If it's only there to draw cards isn't Painful Truths just better? Is the instant vs sorcery that big a deal? and isn't 3cards vs 2cards equally a big deal?
2. Do we think that Infect will be hurt enough to ease up on the SB? I run the 'all-in-Crovax' plan, and it's been good... but if it's projected to drop in the rankings, I'd run something else in place...
3. Mikokoro, Center of the Sea / Oboro, Palace in the Clouds: are they THAT much better than running Nephalia Academy vs BGx?
Would have had a longer response, and I'll type something in tomorrow, but I wanted to ask before it got too late. Thanks in advance.
Crovax is strictly for Infect. They are just dead if it resolves. Night of Soul's Betrayal can be destroyed by Nature's Claim which they are likely to bring in to destroy Prisms/Blooms/Unlife/Spellskites.
Oh, I agree with you. The only card that will kill it is dismember, and even then, you can pay 2 life and return it. I guess I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the 4WW cost... if you get to 6 mana, you can just combo and win. The prob with this matchup is how fast the opponent can kill u. So, when I compare the two hate cards, NoSB can be cast turn 2 (2black and 2 SSG) and more reliably on turn 3 (3 land and SSG/Prism); Crovax can be played roughly around turn 4... so I guess I'm asking "is the extra 2 mana worth a better hate card?"
If the answer to all of this is Yes, how many would be recommended for a standard, NON-BTL build? 1, 2, or 3?
I’m new to the thread, but have been playing Ad Nauseam for a while now. At first, I loved the deck for the flavor and the complicated nature of the combo. Something about going into negative life totals and still winning is right up my alley. Then, I kept getting crushed with the deck. I mean, simple green Stompy decks without much more tech than a Rancor or two would be beating me down and I just sat there and did nothing. So, I was discouraged. Then, I see that it wins a major event (or comes in 2nd), and my faith is renewed! Then I take it out and get smashed… So, I took it as a personal challenge to learn and become proficient at piloting this deck… I’m making headway, having a 4-0 day last Wednesday at my LGS (no cut to top 8 due to small amount of players), and my first win was 2-0 vs Infect!
The reason I brought all that up, was because I noticed that this deck (much like Storm), is more about the pilot of the deck, rather than the deck itself. Anyone can pick it up and understand how the combo works, but it takes someone who intimately knows the deck to take it to the top of a main event. That’s why I joined the thread here. I want to know and be better with the intricate workings of the deck. Some of the technical details that aren’t obvious to newer pilots of the deck
Like making sure you know how many SSGs are in your graveyard before comboing off!! I was playing an Eggs (ya I know… Eggs…) player and he was about to combo, and started by activating his Codex Shredder, in response, I Ad Nauseamed for value (had something like 2 cards in hand after a double mulligan), and drew something like 10-15 cards… The spell resolved and I had everything I needed to combo off EOT or Upkeep, but the Codex milled over my 2nd SSG and I didn’t realize there was 1 in the yard already. Point is, I had just enough mana to cast Angel’s Grace & Ad Nauseam (played my 5th land w/ a Prism with 1 counter), and realized I didn’t have the mana to cast Lab Man, and not enough SSGs left to Lightning Storm…
Once I started testing a lot, I started with 1 Mystical Teachings and 2 Peer Through Depths in lieu of 3 Spoils of the Vault. It worked well, but peer was an okay dig spell, but just not as versatile as Spoils. You can’t hit lands, Unlife, SSG, or anything other than Grace, AN, Pact or more dig spells… I DID like Teachings because a turn 3-4 Teachings getting that Angel’s Grace at EOT or Ad Nauseam, or a Pact is great. No BS. Just go get what you want! Problem was that 4cc… Sometimes you needed to play the tutor mid steps and you just don’t have the mana for it… So, I played with 2 Spoils / 1 Teachings for quite a while now, and finally am on the 3 spoils gameplan.
It wasn’t until I started watching the new YouTube channel that I got to SEE some plays with Spoils to see its value. Naming the card scryed to the top with Serum Visions or a Temple is a great use of the card, for example. Why not use it as a quick cantrip, especially if you have multiples in hand. Pay B and draw a card at instant speed. Not bad. Didn’t realize interactions like these (or I did, but never utilized them until now), which is the technical know-how I’m talking about.
As for lands, I’m still messing with the numbers, but these have been working well for me. I like the 21 land version, over the 20 land / 1 Slaughter Pact plan because that 1 extra land is very easily swapped out for a SB card in Game 2, and the extra kill spell in Pact is never really missed by me for game 1.
Some thoughts on lands:
Tolaria West – The tutoring is nice, but goes against the “I don’t need to shuffle so all my stuff bottomed will stay there,” plan, but when you side in the Slaughter Pact, Pact of Negation or Boseiju, it’s nice to be able to get them when you need them. I am thinking about cutting it for another basic or utility land. There are a lot of games when it’s just an annoying ETB tapped land.
3 City of Brass / 2 Gemstone Mine – Not sure if this is best, or flip it and go 2 City /3 Mine. Same goes with eliminating one or the other entirely. I’m still messing with the numbers on these two.
Dreadship Reef – Didn’t like it in the beginning, like it more now. Worst case, it’s a land that adds 1. Best case, you don’t have a ramp spell (Bloom / Prism), but you’ve got the combo in hand… instead of praying for a Prism off the top, you can at least store the counters for when you can combo… it’s more proactive than a basic.
Sideboard Logic :
These are basically staying where they’re at. The only one I may change is Darkness -> Ethereal Haze or another anti Aggro card. For right now, they’re fine at 3. The rest most ppl run and are self-explanatory.
1 Echoing Truth - *WILDCARD* Catch all for any permanent blocking the combo
4 Leyline of Sanctity - Discard / Burn / Targeted Combo decks
1 Slaughter Pact - Any aggro matchup / specific non-blackcreature disrupting the combo
3 Darkness - Any aggro matchup
1 Pact of Negation - Control / Combo decks
2 Thoughtseize - Control / Combo decks
These are the ones I’m debating leaving in or changing:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All - Counter based control / combo decks
1 Gigadrowse - Counter based control / combo decks
1 Patrician’s Scorn - Enchantments (Blood Moon, Bogles decks, Leyline of
Boseiju, Who Shelters All – I’ve played too many counter based decks with Ghost Quarter / Tectonic Edge in the main. It is a HUGE waste of time pulling strings to get a land that ETB tapped, just to make 1 of the spells uncounterable. I’d rather have another Pact over a Boseiju.
Gigadrowse – Also against counter heavy decks. Can be used vs aggro as a pseudo-Fog effect, but seems VERY situational. Seems like a better card should be here.
Patrician’s Scorn – This is a useful card against Blood Moon, Leylines and Bogles; but I feel like each can be taken care of without wasting a SB space. I’ve gotten out of Blood Moons before with Blooms and Prisms. Leylines are fine and Echoing Truth takes care of them just as well as Scorn… More useful than Scorn as well. As for Bogles, I don’t care about a tier 3-4 deck that can be won / lost as easy as any aggro matchup. I’m thinking this is another wasted spot.
Wonder if this would be a better Infect matchup than just running Darkness and Slaughter Pact. Still debating.
So, if anyone has a good article, video (I’m already watching the new series put on YouTube by one of your subscribers and it’s helping a ton), or source that focuses on PILOTING the deck, or the intimate aspects of playing the deck; that’d be great!
As for our current discussion: I’ve played with Bring to Light in a 5-color Gifts deck, and it worked well as a Gifts Ungiven 5-7, or as a silver bullet like playing it for Sigarda, Host of Herons or Damnation. In this type of deck, I am not sure it translates as well as with Gifts decks / Scapeshift decks. Seems like faster dig spells (Sleight of Hand / Serum Visions) and Spoils / Teachings is just a better (less mana intensive) way our deck can dig for the combo. Other than a 40-something-ith place finish, has anyone else tested this version? I like the idea of it, but not sure it’s fast enough…
As for Crovax in the SB… Is it JUST for the Infect matchup? Or against any / all aggro decks? If so, isn’t the 6cc just too high to be effective? Seems like you wouldn’t be able to get it out fast enough to do much… Heck, I’m worried about dying before a Bloom resolves let alone have 4WW mana that fast… Like, I’ve been researching Infect tech, and cards like Night of Souls’ Betrayal costs 2 less and is hard to get rid of (without a Nature’s Claim), and I know that Crovax can be saved via losing 2 life but recasting seems near impossible before you’re dead to poison. Please let me know if it’s working, and if it’s used in the way I think it is…
So, I’m determined to become a great Ad Nauseam player. Playing the deck is an art, and I love decks like that. Where, instead of wielding a club or sword and smashing or slashing your way to a victory; you have that crazy Whip Sword from India. The one where you can literally cut your own head off by using it… But watching that warrior wield that weapon makes you really stop and appreciate the skill and art of a weapon like that… The deck needs more finesse than most to play, and I want to master it. Please help where you can guys!
I think there's a good argument for a WR build due to Blood Moon and the Nahiri package. The thing is: the deck Sun and Moon feel like a better version of WR control. Having things 3 colored seems a little rough. I'd almost rather a strait WR rather than Mardu... swapping out cards for Blood Moon and Nahiri and possibly Lightning Helix / Boros Charm for Orzhov Charms...
So, Basically, you’re adding 3 Nahiri + 1 Emrakul for 4 Ghostly Prisons / Lingering Souls and changing the mana base to include R. I guess my only question is: Is it worth it?
I haven’t been following the thread lately (been focused on Standard and trying to get better at piloting Ad Nauseam in Modern (I either have the WORST luck in the universe, or I still haven’t mastered the finer points of the deck, like mulligans etc…)), and I don’t know how playtest results are going, but it seems like wedging Nahiri into the deck makes it a worse Jeskai Control build rather than an awesome Mardu Control. The ‘combo finish’ doesn’t synergize with any other part of the deck, other than the planeswalker is RW which works with Martyr.
Now, I’m not saying that Nahiri isn’t useful on her own. She gives the deck card selection (the discard synergizes very slightly with Mistveil Plains), is built in removal for Artifacts, Enchantments and Creatures, and her ultimate WILL end the game very soon. Is it good enough to run though? Nahiri isn’t “play and win,” and you do need it out 3 turns before it kills the opponent. We don’t run the permission like Jeskai Control does, so it could just die on that turn before you ultimate. Meanwhile, you’ve taken out one of the big benefits to this deck by removing the maindeck playset of Ghostly Prison. Yes, the WB decks may run Lingering Souls in that spot, but I know the mono-white crowd (and many WB Martyr lists, depending on meta), run the Prisons main. The format is so aggressive, it seems that adding a 4 mana ‘Walker that can finish the game in a few turns seems slow. Granted, the alternative is SLOWER, but it just seems not worth the effort.
If you look at it that way, add in the fact that the deck is more susceptible to a blood moon, makes turning Emeria on a little bit harder, and there is really no other benefit to adding the Red out of the SB either. The only R cards in the Board are Slaughter Games & Hide // Seek, and honestly they aren’t a great reason for me to turn to R…
Please though. I might be dead wrong! Please let me know. I haven’t tested in the meta with this deck in a while, and I haven’t tested a Mardu list. If you guys have any notes, stories, or stats on WBR Vs WB Vs W (or have playtesting videos), let me know
Hey guys, it's been a while since I've been here on the thread... what's the most current Mardu list people have been testing?
Also, I've seen some good decks running with Blessed Alliance in the infect matchup... has anyone tested it for our deck? SB or MD? Non-targeting removal with life gain seems up our alley...
I'm glad a few of you got interested again in this deck. I stopped playing it a while ago, but it has never truly left for me. The past year I have debated on getting the cards again and playing w the deck, but every time I do I keep going back to the current meta and seeing Infect, Affinity, Zoo and Suicide Zoo, Merfolk, and other fast aggro strategies in the top two tiers. That's where this deck has always had trouble...
Against combo and control, this deck can dominate, but against aggro and other decks that really utilize 1cc cards, this deck can falter.
Some ideas I had since I last posted here:
Fevered Visions seems to be an auto include. I personally would run Them over the Temple Bells and run a full 4.
Titi is okay, but we're not that fast to remove all counters quickly... It DOES dodge Lightning Bolts however...
Chalice of the Void I think is a x4 in the SB. With Simian spirit Giude in the MD, you can drop it turn 1, which helps against mana dorks and other 1 drops like Death's Shadow / Goblin Guide.
Engulf the shore seems like another big card for the deck. We were debating different 4cc sweepers like Ætherize out of the board, but each had their problems. Engulf seems to eliminate all those pitfalls.
I'm gonna try and pick up where we left off and get a deck list made as a starting point. Until then, welcome back
Hey guys, I just wanted to ask a quick question: I was able to find a patch for Eldritch Moon, and I added it just fine to the master base and all the cards pop up. When I add a JPEG to the Pics folder (named correctly), it gives me an error report. How do I fix this? I had no problems with the past two sets, and now it's stopping me from seeing any full art pics...
Also, is there any update, or something, that I can just download the most current version with all sets including EMN? Thanks
-Yawg
PS - Attached a pic of the Error message for reference
I took a look at your list, and I basically agree with your changes. The question I have is with -2 Nissa, Vastwood Seer for +2 Oath of Jace. Yes, oath will be bounced once you get the "lock" in place so you can replay it each cycle; and Nissa will get bounced as a Planeswalker and Ashaya will go too. But the lock aside, for the same cc, Nissa gets you a land, flips super easy, gives you consistent card advantage, can attack / block as a 2/2 early, and gives you a 4/4 that can be used to kill opposing creatures, and is its own wincon if needed. Oath nets you 0 cards (play 1, draw 3, discard 2 = no 'extra' cards) and can be played over and over when the soft lock is on, but that's it... If I were to choose between the two, it seems like Nissa is better.
Also, I am a fan of how you're approaching the SB. I'm leaning in that direction as well. Less singletons (we have no way to tutor), and more of a consistent transformative SB. My question is: do you think that Clip Wings (mainly there to combat Avacyn), is worth the 2 spots? Wouldn't -1 negate, -2 clip Wings, and +3 Spell Shrivel be better? Even vs Avacyn, you can just counter it to exile once the lock is in play...
Lastly, how do you feel about Send to Sleep? Seems like it's just too weak to perform well... It's great to buy time, especially vs Ramp decks... Against W Humans, GW Tokens, and Bant Company; it seems like a bad fog effect. It's great if you're tapping down Ulamog and World Breaker, but against 3-5 2/2s, doesn't seem that great... I actually was thinking about Icefall Regent in the side vs Ramp strategies for a never ending tapped creature with a decent flying body that's hard to target... Anywho, how's send to sleep been working for you?
Also, I feel that the only reason to side in Displacement Wave would be vs W Humans and GW Tokens... The same concept would apply if we ran Engulf the Shore, the difference would be that Engulf is instant and can be used well vs UR Flyers / WU Spirits... I was actually humoring Aerial Volley against that matchup... Even if it's just a bolt, that's good enough for Modern... If you are up against multiple 2/1 flyers, or even 2/2 flyers, Volley seems pretty good! (Lookin at you Clip Wings!)
Anyway, I think that I'll make my subtle changes to YOUR list and run it online the next three days. See how it works.
-Yawg
*edit*
How do you feel about World Breaker and Oath of Nissa. I feel they'd both be really good in this type of deck, but things would need to be tweaked to make it work (colorless lands - add Yavimaya Coast, and more creatures for Oath - add Sylvan Advocate, etc). Worth the changes? I'm referring to the TCGplayer / spellsyphon's list.
Hi guys. I'm a huge UG fan, so when I read the TCGplayer article, I jumped on it. I've been playing BG Seasons Past and then shifted to Mono Blue Prison. I think this deck fits in between. The thing I'm trying to figure out is: go more creature heavy, with Oath of Nissa, and leave out some Ramp (like you guys seem to be brewing); or stick with a ramp strategy and run it more like the list off of TCGplayer? Either way, I think the SB should be a bit more transformative, especially against ramp and W humans. Bounding Krasis, Deathmist Raptor, Void Grafter are all fast threats that can be put in instead of the larger spells / ramp spells. That way, you aren't relying on bounce to rid yourself of 1-3cc creatures and you can close the game before the opponent ramps to Ulamog.
What do you guys think? I was leaning towards the ramp w a aggro SB... And against other Ramp decks, leaning on countermagic to stop larger threats like Ulamog (I get that their cast triggers still happen, but to Exile the creatures and not have to deal w a large eldrazi in play is still better than bounce...).
-Yawg
A. I created a Facebook page for this archetype. Please request it if you want! Imput would be fantastic. MTG - Modern Taking Turns
B. I'm still rocking the Mono-Blue and have been testing my A$$ off with it. I"m still like 75% win rate, which is good, but not great. Consistancy...
C. I know many are testing Ux Turns... Outside of Mono-U, what is showing the most promise?
D. What is the general consensus over the two different Bant Turns decks? I've been trying to wrap my head around it... No Howling Mine effects throws me off to be honest.
1 Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
1 Inkmoth Nexus
21 Island
Creatures 2
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells 35
1 Gigadrowse
4 Serum Visions
3 Censor
4 Remand
3 Exhaustion
2 Howling Mine
4 Dictate of Kruphix
3 Cryptic Command
4 Time Warp
4 Temporal Mastery
3 Part the Waterveil
3 Nephalia Academy
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Spell Pierce
2 Thing in the Ice
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Echoing Truth
2 Engulf the Shore
Well, let me know about those points... I wanna be more active here, because I am hitting a plateau without getting some advise...
-Yawg
-Yawg
Right now i'm testing out Hide // Seek again. In the Sram matchup, they run 2 Grapeshot at best. Some decks run only 1... So it's a faster play than Eidolon, etc... Second, I'm also testing with Rule of Law (over Eidolon), because Enchantments are harder to deal with than a creature is. Also, in the Ad Nauseam matchup, they run 2 wincons. One of them deals damage, but if you crack a Martyr or two, you should be out of Lightning Storm range. This leaves Lab Maniac that you can turn 2 remove from their decks.
So, here's what I'm seeing:
Ad Nauseam - Only 2 wincons. Remove 1 or both, and you won. Gaining large amnts of life takes the other one out.
Scapeshift - Gaining lots of life gives us the advantage. If they're Titan Valakut, we have the removal for the titans, and GQ for their valakuts... I think we're already positioned well enough for this matchup. Like tron, using GQ and Extirpate (which has been performing as well as Extraction for me... Budgetary reasons for MTGO) / Extraction on their land after GQing them spells death.
Cheeri0s - Between Rule of Law / Eidolon, all our removal spells, and Hide // Seek, I think it's manageable.
PS - Only played 2 Constructed Leagues so far. Not running Crucible of Worlds yet because I didn't wanna pay the 15 for a maybe card. Luckily haven't played Tron but once, and I won because I played a turn 1 Serra Ascendant followed by a turn 2 Martyr, pop, swing for 6 lifelink on turn 2... Sometimes that IS the right play. In the first league, I went 1-4 (and some losses are because I still haven't mastered the buttons (like, popping Martyr but hitting the pass button before revealing... :()) Second league, went 3-2 and again, one loss was because I passed the turn, rather than pass the attack step and couldn't fetch out my Squad Hawks before turn 2 where he played his Leonin Arbiter... Another in that game was where I didn't know you needed to click the Arbiter to pay the 2 to search for cards... Would have gotten all my quad Hawks there too...
So, I still think that WB is fine, I just am having troubles with the SB again...
-Yawg
1. Why Esper Charm in some SBs? What matchups does it come in for?
1b. If it's only there to draw cards isn't Painful Truths just better? Is the instant vs sorcery that big a deal? and isn't 3cards vs 2cards equally a big deal?
2. Do we think that Infect will be hurt enough to ease up on the SB? I run the 'all-in-Crovax' plan, and it's been good... but if it's projected to drop in the rankings, I'd run something else in place...
3. Mikokoro, Center of the Sea / Oboro, Palace in the Clouds: are they THAT much better than running Nephalia Academy vs BGx?
Would have had a longer response, and I'll type something in tomorrow, but I wanted to ask before it got too late. Thanks in advance.
-Yawg
If the answer to all of this is Yes, how many would be recommended for a standard, NON-BTL build? 1, 2, or 3?
I’m new to the thread, but have been playing Ad Nauseam for a while now. At first, I loved the deck for the flavor and the complicated nature of the combo. Something about going into negative life totals and still winning is right up my alley. Then, I kept getting crushed with the deck. I mean, simple green Stompy decks without much more tech than a Rancor or two would be beating me down and I just sat there and did nothing. So, I was discouraged. Then, I see that it wins a major event (or comes in 2nd), and my faith is renewed! Then I take it out and get smashed… So, I took it as a personal challenge to learn and become proficient at piloting this deck… I’m making headway, having a 4-0 day last Wednesday at my LGS (no cut to top 8 due to small amount of players), and my first win was 2-0 vs Infect!
The reason I brought all that up, was because I noticed that this deck (much like Storm), is more about the pilot of the deck, rather than the deck itself. Anyone can pick it up and understand how the combo works, but it takes someone who intimately knows the deck to take it to the top of a main event. That’s why I joined the thread here. I want to know and be better with the intricate workings of the deck. Some of the technical details that aren’t obvious to newer pilots of the deck
3 City of Brass
2 Gemstone Mine
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Darkslick Shores
3 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Dreadship Reef
1 Tolaria West
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Plains
Creatures 5
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Angel’s Grace
4 Ad Nauseam
3 Phyrexian Unlife
3 Spoils of the Vault
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Lotus Bloom
4 Pentad Prism
3 Pact of Negation
1 Lightning Storm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Slaughter Pact
3 Darkness
1 Pact of Negation
2 Thoughtseize
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Gigadrowse
1 Patrician’s Scorn
Maindeck Logic:
Once I started testing a lot, I started with 1 Mystical Teachings and 2 Peer Through Depths in lieu of 3 Spoils of the Vault. It worked well, but peer was an okay dig spell, but just not as versatile as Spoils. You can’t hit lands, Unlife, SSG, or anything other than Grace, AN, Pact or more dig spells… I DID like Teachings because a turn 3-4 Teachings getting that Angel’s Grace at EOT or Ad Nauseam, or a Pact is great. No BS. Just go get what you want! Problem was that 4cc… Sometimes you needed to play the tutor mid steps and you just don’t have the mana for it… So, I played with 2 Spoils / 1 Teachings for quite a while now, and finally am on the 3 spoils gameplan.
It wasn’t until I started watching the new YouTube channel that I got to SEE some plays with Spoils to see its value. Naming the card scryed to the top with Serum Visions or a Temple is a great use of the card, for example. Why not use it as a quick cantrip, especially if you have multiples in hand. Pay B and draw a card at instant speed. Not bad. Didn’t realize interactions like these (or I did, but never utilized them until now), which is the technical know-how I’m talking about.
As for lands, I’m still messing with the numbers, but these have been working well for me. I like the 21 land version, over the 20 land / 1 Slaughter Pact plan because that 1 extra land is very easily swapped out for a SB card in Game 2, and the extra kill spell in Pact is never really missed by me for game 1.
Some thoughts on lands:
Tolaria West – The tutoring is nice, but goes against the “I don’t need to shuffle so all my stuff bottomed will stay there,” plan, but when you side in the Slaughter Pact, Pact of Negation or Boseiju, it’s nice to be able to get them when you need them. I am thinking about cutting it for another basic or utility land. There are a lot of games when it’s just an annoying ETB tapped land.
3 City of Brass / 2 Gemstone Mine – Not sure if this is best, or flip it and go 2 City /3 Mine. Same goes with eliminating one or the other entirely. I’m still messing with the numbers on these two.
Dreadship Reef – Didn’t like it in the beginning, like it more now. Worst case, it’s a land that adds 1. Best case, you don’t have a ramp spell (Bloom / Prism), but you’ve got the combo in hand… instead of praying for a Prism off the top, you can at least store the counters for when you can combo… it’s more proactive than a basic.
Sideboard Logic :
These are basically staying where they’re at. The only one I may change is Darkness -> Ethereal Haze or another anti Aggro card. For right now, they’re fine at 3. The rest most ppl run and are self-explanatory.
1 Echoing Truth - *WILDCARD* Catch all for any permanent blocking the combo
4 Leyline of Sanctity - Discard / Burn / Targeted Combo decks
1 Slaughter Pact - Any aggro matchup / specific non-black creature disrupting the combo
3 Darkness - Any aggro matchup
1 Pact of Negation - Control / Combo decks
2 Thoughtseize - Control / Combo decks
These are the ones I’m debating leaving in or changing:
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All - Counter based control / combo decks
1 Gigadrowse - Counter based control / combo decks
1 Patrician’s Scorn - Enchantments (Blood Moon, Bogles decks, Leyline of
Boseiju, Who Shelters All – I’ve played too many counter based decks with Ghost Quarter / Tectonic Edge in the main. It is a HUGE waste of time pulling strings to get a land that ETB tapped, just to make 1 of the spells uncounterable. I’d rather have another Pact over a Boseiju.
Gigadrowse – Also against counter heavy decks. Can be used vs aggro as a pseudo-Fog effect, but seems VERY situational. Seems like a better card should be here.
Patrician’s Scorn – This is a useful card against Blood Moon, Leylines and Bogles; but I feel like each can be taken care of without wasting a SB space. I’ve gotten out of Blood Moons before with Blooms and Prisms. Leylines are fine and Echoing Truth takes care of them just as well as Scorn… More useful than Scorn as well. As for Bogles, I don’t care about a tier 3-4 deck that can be won / lost as easy as any aggro matchup. I’m thinking this is another wasted spot.
I was thinking that instead of these 3, running:
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
2 Spellskite
Wonder if this would be a better Infect matchup than just running Darkness and Slaughter Pact. Still debating.
As for our current discussion: I’ve played with Bring to Light in a 5-color Gifts deck, and it worked well as a Gifts Ungiven 5-7, or as a silver bullet like playing it for Sigarda, Host of Herons or Damnation. In this type of deck, I am not sure it translates as well as with Gifts decks / Scapeshift decks. Seems like faster dig spells (Sleight of Hand / Serum Visions) and Spoils / Teachings is just a better (less mana intensive) way our deck can dig for the combo. Other than a 40-something-ith place finish, has anyone else tested this version? I like the idea of it, but not sure it’s fast enough…
As for Crovax in the SB… Is it JUST for the Infect matchup? Or against any / all aggro decks? If so, isn’t the 6cc just too high to be effective? Seems like you wouldn’t be able to get it out fast enough to do much… Heck, I’m worried about dying before a Bloom resolves let alone have 4WW mana that fast… Like, I’ve been researching Infect tech, and cards like Night of Souls’ Betrayal costs 2 less and is hard to get rid of (without a Nature’s Claim), and I know that Crovax can be saved via losing 2 life but recasting seems near impossible before you’re dead to poison. Please let me know if it’s working, and if it’s used in the way I think it is…
So, I’m determined to become a great Ad Nauseam player. Playing the deck is an art, and I love decks like that. Where, instead of wielding a club or sword and smashing or slashing your way to a victory; you have that crazy Whip Sword from India. The one where you can literally cut your own head off by using it… But watching that warrior wield that weapon makes you really stop and appreciate the skill and art of a weapon like that… The deck needs more finesse than most to play, and I want to master it. Please help where you can guys!
-Yawg
Mono white made 26 at the last SCG Modern Open.
I think there's a good argument for a WR build due to Blood Moon and the Nahiri package. The thing is: the deck Sun and Moon feel like a better version of WR control. Having things 3 colored seems a little rough. I'd almost rather a strait WR rather than Mardu... swapping out cards for Blood Moon and Nahiri and possibly Lightning Helix / Boros Charm for Orzhov Charms...
-yawg
I haven’t been following the thread lately (been focused on Standard and trying to get better at piloting Ad Nauseam in Modern (I either have the WORST luck in the universe, or I still haven’t mastered the finer points of the deck, like mulligans etc…)), and I don’t know how playtest results are going, but it seems like wedging Nahiri into the deck makes it a worse Jeskai Control build rather than an awesome Mardu Control. The ‘combo finish’ doesn’t synergize with any other part of the deck, other than the planeswalker is RW which works with Martyr.
Now, I’m not saying that Nahiri isn’t useful on her own. She gives the deck card selection (the discard synergizes very slightly with Mistveil Plains), is built in removal for Artifacts, Enchantments and Creatures, and her ultimate WILL end the game very soon. Is it good enough to run though? Nahiri isn’t “play and win,” and you do need it out 3 turns before it kills the opponent. We don’t run the permission like Jeskai Control does, so it could just die on that turn before you ultimate. Meanwhile, you’ve taken out one of the big benefits to this deck by removing the maindeck playset of Ghostly Prison. Yes, the WB decks may run Lingering Souls in that spot, but I know the mono-white crowd (and many WB Martyr lists, depending on meta), run the Prisons main. The format is so aggressive, it seems that adding a 4 mana ‘Walker that can finish the game in a few turns seems slow. Granted, the alternative is SLOWER, but it just seems not worth the effort.
If you look at it that way, add in the fact that the deck is more susceptible to a blood moon, makes turning Emeria on a little bit harder, and there is really no other benefit to adding the Red out of the SB either. The only R cards in the Board are Slaughter Games & Hide // Seek, and honestly they aren’t a great reason for me to turn to R…
Please though. I might be dead wrong! Please let me know. I haven’t tested in the meta with this deck in a while, and I haven’t tested a Mardu list. If you guys have any notes, stories, or stats on WBR Vs WB Vs W (or have playtesting videos), let me know
-Yawg
Also, I've seen some good decks running with Blessed Alliance in the infect matchup... has anyone tested it for our deck? SB or MD? Non-targeting removal with life gain seems up our alley...
-Yawg
I'm glad a few of you got interested again in this deck. I stopped playing it a while ago, but it has never truly left for me. The past year I have debated on getting the cards again and playing w the deck, but every time I do I keep going back to the current meta and seeing Infect, Affinity, Zoo and Suicide Zoo, Merfolk, and other fast aggro strategies in the top two tiers. That's where this deck has always had trouble...
Against combo and control, this deck can dominate, but against aggro and other decks that really utilize 1cc cards, this deck can falter.
Some ideas I had since I last posted here:
Fevered Visions seems to be an auto include. I personally would run Them over the Temple Bells and run a full 4.
Titi is okay, but we're not that fast to remove all counters quickly... It DOES dodge Lightning Bolts however...
Chalice of the Void I think is a x4 in the SB. With Simian spirit Giude in the MD, you can drop it turn 1, which helps against mana dorks and other 1 drops like Death's Shadow / Goblin Guide.
Engulf the shore seems like another big card for the deck. We were debating different 4cc sweepers like Ætherize out of the board, but each had their problems. Engulf seems to eliminate all those pitfalls.
I'm gonna try and pick up where we left off and get a deck list made as a starting point. Until then, welcome back
-Yawg
Also, is there any update, or something, that I can just download the most current version with all sets including EMN? Thanks
-Yawg
PS - Attached a pic of the Error message for reference
Also, I am a fan of how you're approaching the SB. I'm leaning in that direction as well. Less singletons (we have no way to tutor), and more of a consistent transformative SB. My question is: do you think that Clip Wings (mainly there to combat Avacyn), is worth the 2 spots? Wouldn't -1 negate, -2 clip Wings, and +3 Spell Shrivel be better? Even vs Avacyn, you can just counter it to exile once the lock is in play...
Lastly, how do you feel about Send to Sleep? Seems like it's just too weak to perform well... It's great to buy time, especially vs Ramp decks... Against W Humans, GW Tokens, and Bant Company; it seems like a bad fog effect. It's great if you're tapping down Ulamog and World Breaker, but against 3-5 2/2s, doesn't seem that great... I actually was thinking about Icefall Regent in the side vs Ramp strategies for a never ending tapped creature with a decent flying body that's hard to target... Anywho, how's send to sleep been working for you?
Also, I feel that the only reason to side in Displacement Wave would be vs W Humans and GW Tokens... The same concept would apply if we ran Engulf the Shore, the difference would be that Engulf is instant and can be used well vs UR Flyers / WU Spirits... I was actually humoring Aerial Volley against that matchup... Even if it's just a bolt, that's good enough for Modern... If you are up against multiple 2/1 flyers, or even 2/2 flyers, Volley seems pretty good! (Lookin at you Clip Wings!)
Anyway, I think that I'll make my subtle changes to YOUR list and run it online the next three days. See how it works.
-Yawg
*edit*
How do you feel about World Breaker and Oath of Nissa. I feel they'd both be really good in this type of deck, but things would need to be tweaked to make it work (colorless lands - add Yavimaya Coast, and more creatures for Oath - add Sylvan Advocate, etc). Worth the changes? I'm referring to the TCGplayer / spellsyphon's list.
What do you guys think? I was leaning towards the ramp w a aggro SB... And against other Ramp decks, leaning on countermagic to stop larger threats like Ulamog (I get that their cast triggers still happen, but to Exile the creatures and not have to deal w a large eldrazi in play is still better than bounce...).
-Yawg