Again, this thread is about TA, and TA is a tempo deck, and Delver belongs in TA. I can't see how I can be more clear.
I can not agree with this statement more.
I've been playing team since the super powered team of waste, stifle, and sink hole first came together. New team members have come and gone, but I think the newest variation could be the strongest to date.
Delver gives this deck what it always needed: more cheap threats to end the game quickly; 8 was never enough.
4 delver, 4 goyf, 3 tombstalker, 1 clique has been working wonders for me lately. But tombstalker has been such a beating against RUG, that I'll be testing a bump back up to 4.
How important is standstill/ancestral visions to the blue version of this deck?
You use most of your resources holding off the other deck early on. Unless you're in a position to drop a turn 2 SFM or turn 4 Jace, with THIS deck (which is sometimes hard), you're going to need to reload since most of your spells are one-for-one.
As for dueling grounds, i guess only Affinity and Dredge might need it, but those are decks that can actually totally blow you out within 2 turns none the less.
Really?
Both of those decks have been a cake walk in recent events for me. Gadox Teeg slows dredge down incredibly, wastland on dryad arbor takes out bridges. Sideboard is just rediculous.
Wastland and pridemage are pretty much wreck Affinity too. Again, sideboard is bonkers here.
Revoker, pridemage, krosan grip, b.bog, loaming shaman, and scavaging ooze have all earned their spots in my board.
I've also added a jitte and 2 warmth for my red match up.. I didn't loose this time.
I'm in a control heavy meta, so I can't go overboard for this one burn player.
I had SFM turn 2 and batterskull turn 3 both games, but lost before being able to attack. SoWP was in there as well, but that would have been even slower.
I just don't think there's any way to beat that without dedicating a lot of hate. I'm hopeing that if he doesn't get nut draws again, there's enough life gain in the main deck to just smack him silly.
I played my mox diamond list with a few tweeks to another second place finish. This time, I lost in the finals to freaking burn. 0-2.
Both games I had a quick batterskull on the ground about to attack. one more turn and I would have come back to win. But it's kind of hard to beat tripple goblin guide and crap tons of burn to my face.
Any thoughts? I really didn't have a lot to side in. I wasn thinking about challice of the void for other match ups, and it would have been the nuts vs. burn. I'd just have to make room in my board (for which I would need help.. see my board in the list above).
PS.. I droped down to 2 goyfs and really did miss them. I still won a lot of games with out them, but it would have been easier with them. I might keep them out to try the mindsensors (though I'm stil skeptical on those), but I think I'll end up back at a full set of goyfs.
I've been absent from these boards for several months now (probably closer to a year or so), but I haven't stopped brewing or playing competitively.
I've independently created what I like to call "G/W Zenith Beats". So I was pretty amazed when I saw this thread.. It’s very similar.
First I'll post my list, then some questions for the rest of you. (I've placed 1st twice and top 4 several times at small shops with 30+ players, a hand full with pro points)
My board is still being worked on (I see a lot of blue decks).
Explanations:
Playing SFM on turn 1 is very powerful, and I like blanking mental misstep as much as possible, so moxes seemed the right direction. Mox diamond was my go to choice due to the sheer number of lands I already run to make knight stronger. They also help blank all of the other wasteland decks out there. (Though I did get blown out by a deeds once). Mox just seems light-years better than hierarch, as it's not prone to misstep or removal. And with 4 zeniths, there's still 7 turn one accelerates.
SOFF and SOWP give me all of the relevant protections, and allow me to play aggressively, punch through green creature mirrors and blank every form of removal available. I really miss SOFI, but I just can't justify it.. Maybe someone here can?
Pridemage started as a single zenith target, but I soon found it to be very important in several matchups. I'd play 3 if I could find room (why a 3rd is in the board).
Beast within.. Excellent catch all, especially when all of your creatures are bigger. But hitting my own land has actually won me quite a few games.
Silhana ledgewalker .. I often win with her, and after the match get shown a fist full of useless removal. She’s much easier to hit with zenith in the main deck than thrun is. Plus, ONLY being able to get blocked by flyers is huge. I'm really not sure why no one else has caught on to her yet.
sejiri steppe.. Wins games, period.
Nantuko monastery.. I've NEVER activated it. It’s actually pretty hard to reach threshold in this deck, often winning long before that becomes relivant. I'm about to take it out, but I've got this awkward feeling that it'll help me one day. Any thoughts on this? Experience? And what would I replace it with?
Maindeck teeg.. Sure he cuts off your own zeniths. But in the match ups where he matters, who cares?! He's been golden for me, time and time again.
Mother of runes.. Basically the only 1 drop I have in the deck. They've won me several games, but I'm not sure I would have lost with out them. Not being able to zenith it, and turning misstep on, don't appeal to me. 2 seems right if you're going to run them, I haven't found anything that works better yet. Opinions?
QUESTIONS:
I've been swapping the libraries out for loams. When I do I usually add a sylvan safekeeper for a goyf. I'm not totally sold on it though, and am really frustrated. Both have performed well for me, and I really can't make a good decision here. Neither is good in multiples.. Maybe a singleton split? I haven't tried that yet. What are your thoughts? ps.. Turn one fetch land and mox into loam can be pretty nuts, especially when knight comes down thrun two and not only does the wasteland fun begin, but knight gets absurdly huge when dredging.
Scryb/Quirion Ranger? I understand their strength with knight, but maze of ith does the same thing and is already in the deck. Is it worth it to waste a slot or two on these guys just to win-more with knight? Wouldn't another threat be better? I know how strong they can be from playing elves, but I need some convincing. Why should I run these guys, most likely in the place of goyf?
Gaea's cradle? how often is that actually helping win the game? In what situations? Are those situations worth the amount of times you need a land in the first couple of turns, but don't have a creature to turn cradle on?
How relevant is aven mindsensor? How often does it really shine? Seems like an underpowered cheap trick in legacy with out all of the tutors vintage has. Just seems like there are more powerful things I'd rather be doing.
How often is a single witness really all that? I've been playing it for a while, and recently dropped it. It just seems that I would NEVER zenith for it, because it's just kind of win-more. Naturally drawing it was nice here and there, but that's too random for my tastes.
Is Thrun really needed in the main deck? Sure he can shine against control, but seems lack luster in other match ups. And as a singleton, I’d never pay 5 to tutor him. I much prefer my ledgewalker. Can anyone give me good reason to see this any other way?
Scavenging Ooze vs. loaming shaman.. For the same mana cost, you can get rid of the entire library in one swoop. Why would anyone want to play ooze over shaman? I'm honestly curious... is there something I'm missing? Sure, ooze is better over time, but if you're bringing in grave hate, you probably need it as quickly as possible. In which case zenith for shaman seems better. ???
Homeward path.. Is it worth it as a knight target in the board vs. shakels and sower? I'm inclined to say no, as those problems aren't "too" frequent. However it's worth a thought. My board is just so tight right now. :/
ok, i was messed up about cycling. i guess somehow way back, cycling under a standstill seemed like not using the stack for some reason. and i just never caught on.
i feel pretty stupid for missing something that basic. it's like, saying "wheel-barrel" for years, only to find out it's "wheel barrow".
i'm assuming that an opponent can not extirpate loam in response to a dredge, because loam would be in my hand before extirpate hits the stack. actaully opponent wouldn't even have priority to play the spell in the first place.
so..
what if loam is in my grave yard, my cast's extirpate targeting loam. cycling does not use the stack, right? so may i respond to extirpate by cycling a land, dredging instead, get loam back, having extirpate resolve with no target?
I understand the basics, that you "replace" your draw, with the dredge. But can some one explain in fine detail how this works?
Here's the question that arose.. If I have life from the loam in my yard, and in my draw step, in stead of drawing, I dredge... when exactly do I get loam in my hand? At the same time? Or after the cards are dredged into the yard?
More specificly, If the dredge puts an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into the yard... do I get life from the loam back in my hand, or does Emrakul's trigger happen first, shuffling the loam into the library?
i've been wanting to play combo forever. and this deck is what finally got me to start collecting the pieces. just as soon as the ONLY 2 cards i need for the deck are 2 LED's, tutor gets banned.
so question.. (answers can be PM if you'd prefer).. is this type of combo deck (tendrils + emrakul) going to be able to still be a contender? and if so, what is it looking like these days?
i have zero expeirence piloting these types of decks (i've been a rock and agro-control player for years), so i know i'd have no clue how to build from scratch, or what would (or not) work.
I just want to start learning with a deck that will be fun (tendrils + emrakul = fun2me) and competitive. help anyone?
I can not agree with this statement more.
I've been playing team since the super powered team of waste, stifle, and sink hole first came together. New team members have come and gone, but I think the newest variation could be the strongest to date.
Delver gives this deck what it always needed: more cheap threats to end the game quickly; 8 was never enough.
4 delver, 4 goyf, 3 tombstalker, 1 clique has been working wonders for me lately. But tombstalker has been such a beating against RUG, that I'll be testing a bump back up to 4.
You use most of your resources holding off the other deck early on. Unless you're in a position to drop a turn 2 SFM or turn 4 Jace, with THIS deck (which is sometimes hard), you're going to need to reload since most of your spells are one-for-one.
That sounds like every time I draw my initial seven and think "WOW, this hand has a lot of juice! Oh, right, that's because there's 0-1 lands".
Also, drop the sower for another clique. It's going to be far more useful, come down sooner, and for 4 mana, you'd rather be playing jace.
Really?
Both of those decks have been a cake walk in recent events for me. Gadox Teeg slows dredge down incredibly, wastland on dryad arbor takes out bridges. Sideboard is just rediculous.
Wastland and pridemage are pretty much wreck Affinity too. Again, sideboard is bonkers here.
Revoker, pridemage, krosan grip, b.bog, loaming shaman, and scavaging ooze have all earned their spots in my board.
I've also added a jitte and 2 warmth for my red match up.. I didn't loose this time.
I had SFM turn 2 and batterskull turn 3 both games, but lost before being able to attack. SoWP was in there as well, but that would have been even slower.
I just don't think there's any way to beat that without dedicating a lot of hate.
I would have never thought of that. Not for this deck, but I'll keep that in mind.
Both games I had a quick batterskull on the ground about to attack. one more turn and I would have come back to win. But it's kind of hard to beat tripple goblin guide and crap tons of burn to my face.
Any thoughts? I really didn't have a lot to side in. I wasn thinking about challice of the void for other match ups, and it would have been the nuts vs. burn. I'd just have to make room in my board (for which I would need help.. see my board in the list above).
PS.. I droped down to 2 goyfs and really did miss them. I still won a lot of games with out them, but it would have been easier with them. I might keep them out to try the mindsensors (though I'm stil skeptical on those), but I think I'll end up back at a full set of goyfs.
edit...
Can someone explain this to me? I've never found a reason not to run 4.
Also to note, I won a match because I played Scavenging Ooze; it was nuts against a g/w list with Vengvines.
I've been absent from these boards for several months now (probably closer to a year or so), but I haven't stopped brewing or playing competitively.
I've independently created what I like to call "G/W Zenith Beats". So I was pretty amazed when I saw this thread.. It’s very similar.
First I'll post my list, then some questions for the rest of you. (I've placed 1st twice and top 4 several times at small shops with 30+ players, a hand full with pro points)
4 green suns zenith
2 sylvan library / life from the loam
4 swords to plowshares
2 beast within
1 batterskull
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of war and peace
2 mother or runes
2 qasali pridemage
4 tarmogoyf
4 stoneforge mystic
4 knight of the reliquary
1 Silhana ledgewalker
1 gaddox teeg
1 terravore
2 forest
1 plains
4 savanah
2 horizon canopy
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 karakas
1 sejiri steppe
1 dryad arbor
1 nantuko monistary
1 homeward path
2 thrun the last troll
3 phyrexian revoker
3 choke
1 sword of fire and ice
1 qasali pridemage
1 gaddox teeg
1 gaea's blessing
1 loaming shaman
1 bojuka bog
My board is still being worked on (I see a lot of blue decks).
Explanations:
Playing SFM on turn 1 is very powerful, and I like blanking mental misstep as much as possible, so moxes seemed the right direction. Mox diamond was my go to choice due to the sheer number of lands I already run to make knight stronger. They also help blank all of the other wasteland decks out there. (Though I did get blown out by a deeds once). Mox just seems light-years better than hierarch, as it's not prone to misstep or removal. And with 4 zeniths, there's still 7 turn one accelerates.
SOFF and SOWP give me all of the relevant protections, and allow me to play aggressively, punch through green creature mirrors and blank every form of removal available. I really miss SOFI, but I just can't justify it.. Maybe someone here can?
Pridemage started as a single zenith target, but I soon found it to be very important in several matchups. I'd play 3 if I could find room (why a 3rd is in the board).
Beast within.. Excellent catch all, especially when all of your creatures are bigger. But hitting my own land has actually won me quite a few games.
Silhana ledgewalker .. I often win with her, and after the match get shown a fist full of useless removal. She’s much easier to hit with zenith in the main deck than thrun is. Plus, ONLY being able to get blocked by flyers is huge. I'm really not sure why no one else has caught on to her yet.
sejiri steppe.. Wins games, period.
Nantuko monastery.. I've NEVER activated it. It’s actually pretty hard to reach threshold in this deck, often winning long before that becomes relivant. I'm about to take it out, but I've got this awkward feeling that it'll help me one day. Any thoughts on this? Experience? And what would I replace it with?
Maindeck teeg.. Sure he cuts off your own zeniths. But in the match ups where he matters, who cares?! He's been golden for me, time and time again.
Mother of runes.. Basically the only 1 drop I have in the deck. They've won me several games, but I'm not sure I would have lost with out them. Not being able to zenith it, and turning misstep on, don't appeal to me. 2 seems right if you're going to run them, I haven't found anything that works better yet. Opinions?
QUESTIONS:
I've been swapping the libraries out for loams. When I do I usually add a sylvan safekeeper for a goyf. I'm not totally sold on it though, and am really frustrated. Both have performed well for me, and I really can't make a good decision here. Neither is good in multiples.. Maybe a singleton split? I haven't tried that yet. What are your thoughts? ps.. Turn one fetch land and mox into loam can be pretty nuts, especially when knight comes down thrun two and not only does the wasteland fun begin, but knight gets absurdly huge when dredging.
Scryb/Quirion Ranger? I understand their strength with knight, but maze of ith does the same thing and is already in the deck. Is it worth it to waste a slot or two on these guys just to win-more with knight? Wouldn't another threat be better? I know how strong they can be from playing elves, but I need some convincing. Why should I run these guys, most likely in the place of goyf?
Gaea's cradle? how often is that actually helping win the game? In what situations? Are those situations worth the amount of times you need a land in the first couple of turns, but don't have a creature to turn cradle on?
How relevant is aven mindsensor? How often does it really shine? Seems like an underpowered cheap trick in legacy with out all of the tutors vintage has. Just seems like there are more powerful things I'd rather be doing.
How often is a single witness really all that? I've been playing it for a while, and recently dropped it. It just seems that I would NEVER zenith for it, because it's just kind of win-more. Naturally drawing it was nice here and there, but that's too random for my tastes.
Is Thrun really needed in the main deck? Sure he can shine against control, but seems lack luster in other match ups. And as a singleton, I’d never pay 5 to tutor him. I much prefer my ledgewalker. Can anyone give me good reason to see this any other way?
Scavenging Ooze vs. loaming shaman.. For the same mana cost, you can get rid of the entire library in one swoop. Why would anyone want to play ooze over shaman? I'm honestly curious... is there something I'm missing? Sure, ooze is better over time, but if you're bringing in grave hate, you probably need it as quickly as possible. In which case zenith for shaman seems better. ???
Homeward path.. Is it worth it as a knight target in the board vs. shakels and sower? I'm inclined to say no, as those problems aren't "too" frequent. However it's worth a thought. My board is just so tight right now. :/
Goblins isn't my primary deck, but it's what I test everything against first, to see if there's any hope. Plus, I just love the little red men.
Anyway, I've been playing with 3 wardrivers, 3 chieftans, and 3 war marshals... it's pretty sick.
Insane turn 3 kills are pretty common. definately NOT too slow.
if it gets to the late game you've probably already lost.
red would still be pretty cool..
lord knows i love me some sedge slivers!
does leyline stop jace, the mind sculptor
does he target the player? or the players library? is there a difference
i feel pretty stupid for missing something that basic. it's like, saying "wheel-barrel" for years, only to find out it's "wheel barrow".
i'm assuming that an opponent can not extirpate loam in response to a dredge, because loam would be in my hand before extirpate hits the stack. actaully opponent wouldn't even have priority to play the spell in the first place.
so..
what if loam is in my grave yard, my cast's extirpate targeting loam. cycling does not use the stack, right? so may i respond to extirpate by cycling a land, dredging instead, get loam back, having extirpate resolve with no target?
I understand the basics, that you "replace" your draw, with the dredge. But can some one explain in fine detail how this works?
Here's the question that arose.. If I have life from the loam in my yard, and in my draw step, in stead of drawing, I dredge... when exactly do I get loam in my hand? At the same time? Or after the cards are dredged into the yard?
More specificly, If the dredge puts an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into the yard... do I get life from the loam back in my hand, or does Emrakul's trigger happen first, shuffling the loam into the library?
Thanks for your help!
so question.. (answers can be PM if you'd prefer).. is this type of combo deck (tendrils + emrakul) going to be able to still be a contender? and if so, what is it looking like these days?
i have zero expeirence piloting these types of decks (i've been a rock and agro-control player for years), so i know i'd have no clue how to build from scratch, or what would (or not) work.
I just want to start learning with a deck that will be fun (tendrils + emrakul = fun2me) and competitive. help anyone?
relic is better maindecked than crypt, because if it's a dead draw, at least you can "cycle" it.