I really like the whole idea, so nice job! It seems like you'd want 4 Bridge's right? If you don't land enough creatures/ find Iona or Dread Return, your other plan has to be the Bridge's.. i think, or small beats but I don't think that's gonna get you there.
Without the Snappers you may not have enough protection to justify running the Jaces. There's a little bit of a discussion about it in the MUC thread if you check that out.
2 B2b looks strange. 3 is probably the most common number to run if you're going to be running them in the first place.
Propaganda also seems weak in this list. If they sneak in a goyf or tombstalker or honestly any thing with power 4 or more, you pretty much concede. Propaganda's only going to slow the innevitable with just 3 shackles to help out. I'd cut the Propagandas for 1 Shackles and 1 B2B.
Wow, I'm not sure if this is what Jimbo was saying, but I kinda like this:
Thopter Foundry/ Polymorph
4 Standstill
2 Polymorph
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Progenitus
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Powder Keg
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Snap
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Muta Vault
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
This deck has everything that I've been liking all in one.
* Thopter/ Sword of the Meek combo
* Polymorph finish (which works off of a Thopter Foundry token)
* Standstill (which works beautifully with the man lands required for Polymorph)
* Snap/Chalice at 1/Standstill package
All the ideas came together nicely. I'm a little upset about not being able to fit in regular counterspells but I think it's gonna be hard with 7 non-blue sources plus 4 Wasteable blue sources.
I like it a lot, it looks like you just bury your opponents in card advantage. Do you ever feel like your hand gets cluttered though with 8 four mana spells and so much draw? And also, I've never run the cliques, how were they?
Oh, and I totally agree about the propagndas, the only thing I side them in for anymore is dredge..
It seems as if a recursive Wasteland engine would give you fits. Hard to say when you didnt post a board. Crucible maybe? Also with running Forbid why not drop the Standstill and just run Jace Beleran or something similar? Go for a forbid lock. On that note i would want to play Arcane Lab if there could be room for it. Other then those minor things i like the list, but it beckons the question, does it do the job as good as if not better then the permanent based versions running propaganda/back to basics? Also i would immediately replace dominate with shackles. Infinantly better.
Beats me man! I've never owned b2bs so I can't honestly tell you. My meta is nothing like reality either so an SB wouldn't give you an idea really of what would be useful in high level play. I mean there's always dredge, a merfolk player for a while that turned into combo elves instead, and a competitive zoo deck, but a lot of jank decks too.
This is just something I've been toying with that has worked pretty well. I always have problems with dredge, because it feels like I have to devote my whole SB to it to beat it. I'd rather just hope they don't come. I mean try that core out and see what you think.
About those card choices:
I haven't seen any loam/wasteland deals yet, but I could see that being a problem. I do have 4 T Crytps [4 Negate, 4 propaganda (which i never seem to side in) and 3 Blue Elemental Blasts] which I assume would be enough to fight that? I don't know, but just non-recurring wastelands haven't been too bad. I do have to mull a hand of Shoreline Ranger + land because I fear the wastelands, but overall that suggestion of the Ranger a bit back has worked so thank you whoever that was. And I'm not too keen on Crucible. I've tried it but it never seemed to be worth it's cost, maybe you'll find differently?
Eh, I had shackles in and to be honest, with so many nonbasics, I didn't like them as much as the dominates. Dominates are instant, 4-5 mana creature control, that doesn't die to ench/artifact removal. They also have the nice addition of being played when an opponent breaks a standstill. maybe just personal preference, but try them sometime, most of the critters you're trying to deal with are the ones that get down before the chalice so Dominates become pretty cheap.
Forbids are not essential in any way. The 2nd best card in the deck is Standstill so I wouldn't want to ditch them. The forbids were only there to make use of extra Chalices as running less than 4 was not an option. They could really be any hard counter, maybe even Dissipate's if loam becomes a problem.
I hope that helps a little. I haven't had the means to ever play my deck in a true competitive field so it's just made to win at what I play against. But I can tell you that it beats zoo and combo elves!
On another note, monoblue Landstillesque is rather intriguing. I'm not quite sure how you would go about it though. Maybe Echoing Truths or Snaps to clear the first drops, then cast Standstill? Dunno, it seems interesting, but very fragile as well.
This is the list I was talking about earlier for reference:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Forbid
4 Daze
3 Snap
4 Dominate
4 Powder Keg
2 Morphling
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
4 Chalice of the Void
You know it's not all that much different I guess from U/W landstill. The major factor in choosing mono-blue was when I decided that Chalice at 1 is more powerful than StP or P2E. If you lose those, then all you are left with is Decree of Justice and Humility really. Decree is not all that important as a finisher because mono U can fit in more manlands.
I totally agree that Humility or Wrath's are bombs, but trying to hit WW is not all that easy, especially if you're not going to run the Path's or Swords, so it came down to mana base issues.
The Snap/Chalice and Snap/Standstill combinations are really what puts this list away from U/W standstill in the end though.
I like it actually. I play the chalices main, so spell snares are out and dazes are in the place. And to take full advantage of the standstills i ditch the B2Bs and run Mishra's Factories, Faerie Conclaves, and Quicksands.
I also don't like the propaganda's because I don't like having to wait for a morphling to win. I play dominates and 3 snaps. Snaps are lackluster in builds without Chalice/ Standstills, but being able to snap a Nacatl and then chalice, or snap and then Standstill are both very good plays.
Too push that over the edge there needs to be another worthwhile goblin printed, one that has a large mana cost with a huge ability. Right now all there is for the deck is Seige-Gang.
I would love to make that deck happen, it was discussed a while back on here or the source.. maybe you can search it. I'm pretty sure I'd use vials though, plus 6-8 Lackey goblins which will make Standstills bombs in the deck.
Pretty standard, tries to keep the board clear early game with counterspells and chalice, lock up lands mid-game with back to basics and propaganda, and wins using sphinx of jwar isle or vedalken shackles as an alternate. The only real difference between this and standard mono blue are the two isochron scepters, which become sick with echoing truth, counterspell, or impulse, and the Tabernacle, which I don't actually have but don't see why I wouldn't run if I was filthy rich. I'm considering replacing the impulse with accumulate knowledge simply because AK is so much better late game on the scepter, but Impulse is way more consistent and still gets you all the way through a 60 card deck in 15 turns on the scepter.
I think you fall a little short in the creature control department. Propagandas are great at what they do, which is stall, but you can't do that forever. And with Pridemages/ K grips running so rampant, you can't expect the 2 shackles or even E Truths on a stick to stay around long. Being that you will often get two for 1'd with the sceptors, I would probably take them out for more creature control in the form of Powder Kegs.
One thing I really like about the list is the CotV's. I run them in mine as well, and I think something you might want to look into is Ancestral Visions so you have something to do on your first land drop. If you do drop the sceptors, the they'd replace the Impulses (which are better than AK's anyways).
..I'm very confused. How does the deck actually work? I must be missing something big here. The way I see it, it costs 10 to play Myojin, then when you RFG you get 10 + 1. How does this help? I see how the Mulldrifters can net some mana, but the Deranged Hermits? How does that produce extra mana (I see that it gives tokens)?
I use a crucible-less build. But I also run no wastelands so I suppose you could get rid of funeral charm to make room for your wastelands or move some slots around.
Propaganda also seems weak in this list. If they sneak in a goyf or tombstalker or honestly any thing with power 4 or more, you pretty much concede. Propaganda's only going to slow the innevitable with just 3 shackles to help out. I'd cut the Propagandas for 1 Shackles and 1 B2B.
Thopter Foundry/ Polymorph
4 Standstill
2 Polymorph
4 Thopter Foundry
2 Sword of the Meek
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Progenitus
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Powder Keg
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Snap
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Muta Vault
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Seat of the Synod
This deck has everything that I've been liking all in one.
* Thopter/ Sword of the Meek combo
* Polymorph finish (which works off of a Thopter Foundry token)
* Standstill (which works beautifully with the man lands required for Polymorph)
* Snap/Chalice at 1/Standstill package
All the ideas came together nicely. I'm a little upset about not being able to fit in regular counterspells but I think it's gonna be hard with 7 non-blue sources plus 4 Wasteable blue sources.
Dang. I'm making this!
Oh, and I totally agree about the propagndas, the only thing I side them in for anymore is dredge..
Beats me man! I've never owned b2bs so I can't honestly tell you. My meta is nothing like reality either so an SB wouldn't give you an idea really of what would be useful in high level play. I mean there's always dredge, a merfolk player for a while that turned into combo elves instead, and a competitive zoo deck, but a lot of jank decks too.
This is just something I've been toying with that has worked pretty well. I always have problems with dredge, because it feels like I have to devote my whole SB to it to beat it. I'd rather just hope they don't come. I mean try that core out and see what you think.
About those card choices:
I haven't seen any loam/wasteland deals yet, but I could see that being a problem. I do have 4 T Crytps [4 Negate, 4 propaganda (which i never seem to side in) and 3 Blue Elemental Blasts] which I assume would be enough to fight that? I don't know, but just non-recurring wastelands haven't been too bad. I do have to mull a hand of Shoreline Ranger + land because I fear the wastelands, but overall that suggestion of the Ranger a bit back has worked so thank you whoever that was. And I'm not too keen on Crucible. I've tried it but it never seemed to be worth it's cost, maybe you'll find differently?
Eh, I had shackles in and to be honest, with so many nonbasics, I didn't like them as much as the dominates. Dominates are instant, 4-5 mana creature control, that doesn't die to ench/artifact removal. They also have the nice addition of being played when an opponent breaks a standstill. maybe just personal preference, but try them sometime, most of the critters you're trying to deal with are the ones that get down before the chalice so Dominates become pretty cheap.
Forbids are not essential in any way. The 2nd best card in the deck is Standstill so I wouldn't want to ditch them. The forbids were only there to make use of extra Chalices as running less than 4 was not an option. They could really be any hard counter, maybe even Dissipate's if loam becomes a problem.
I hope that helps a little. I haven't had the means to ever play my deck in a true competitive field so it's just made to win at what I play against. But I can tell you that it beats zoo and combo elves!
This is the list I was talking about earlier for reference:
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Forbid
4 Daze
3 Snap
4 Dominate
4 Powder Keg
2 Morphling
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Standstill
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Faerie Conclave
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Quicksand
13 Island
1 Shoreline Ranger
You know it's not all that much different I guess from U/W landstill. The major factor in choosing mono-blue was when I decided that Chalice at 1 is more powerful than StP or P2E. If you lose those, then all you are left with is Decree of Justice and Humility really. Decree is not all that important as a finisher because mono U can fit in more manlands.
I totally agree that Humility or Wrath's are bombs, but trying to hit WW is not all that easy, especially if you're not going to run the Path's or Swords, so it came down to mana base issues.
The Snap/Chalice and Snap/Standstill combinations are really what puts this list away from U/W standstill in the end though.
I like it actually. I play the chalices main, so spell snares are out and dazes are in the place. And to take full advantage of the standstills i ditch the B2Bs and run Mishra's Factories, Faerie Conclaves, and Quicksands.
I also don't like the propaganda's because I don't like having to wait for a morphling to win. I play dominates and 3 snaps. Snaps are lackluster in builds without Chalice/ Standstills, but being able to snap a Nacatl and then chalice, or snap and then Standstill are both very good plays.
Too push that over the edge there needs to be another worthwhile goblin printed, one that has a large mana cost with a huge ability. Right now all there is for the deck is Seige-Gang.
I would love to make that deck happen, it was discussed a while back on here or the source.. maybe you can search it. I'm pretty sure I'd use vials though, plus 6-8 Lackey goblins which will make Standstills bombs in the deck.
I think you fall a little short in the creature control department. Propagandas are great at what they do, which is stall, but you can't do that forever. And with Pridemages/ K grips running so rampant, you can't expect the 2 shackles or even E Truths on a stick to stay around long. Being that you will often get two for 1'd with the sceptors, I would probably take them out for more creature control in the form of Powder Kegs.
One thing I really like about the list is the CotV's. I run them in mine as well, and I think something you might want to look into is Ancestral Visions so you have something to do on your first land drop. If you do drop the sceptors, the they'd replace the Impulses (which are better than AK's anyways).
21 lands is much too low with 8 pox- 23 Would be better. Also, what's the use of Urborg?