I think elixirs are a very viable card for us, best life gain we have avalable for sure.
I definately think draw-go is viable it's going to take more work to make it competitive, I've been too busy at work recently, will hopefully be able to put a decent primer together in a couple more weeks time.
I think we need to run some ultimate price as well, I'd been testing with slips, charms and devour flesh but I think ultimate price needs to go into the mix as well.
Ultimate price is indeed needed.
I try to fit at least 2 main in my list.
It's narrow but still has relevant targets most of the time.
Also, still trying to find a good number for Elixir, maybe 1 or 2.
I can't find myself dedicating more spot to that card.
1.Liliana was horrible for me all night. The only match where she was relevant was control (duh), and thats not popular enough to care at the moment. She literally just was too little too late or a bad removal spell that left me open. I readily admit, that I was wrong.
2. Augur of Bolas was amazing. His 2 drops slot 1/3 body and dig ability helped me countless times.
3. Dimir charm was blah. Sometimes it killed a dork (not enough to matter0, and mostly rotted in my hand while I died.
4. Devour Flesh was amazing. I think this is fairly obvious why, but particuarly because it's an instant and whacks GoST. Its just very efficient.
5. I lost to direct damag all night, in particular Boros Charm. It was painfully obvious that I need a way to recover life.
6. Barter in Blood was amazing. This was my option over Mutilate. It performed exceptionally well.
7. Lazav was terrible overall. This really hurt. One, and I admit, I mostly played versus red aggro so that was understandable. Against control, he was equally worthless. Never played versus midrange where I thought he would make a difference. I'm not saying he isn't good, but for now far from too conditional to have mainboard. And, for all that I'd rather sideboard evil twin honestly.
I think if you are staying strictly u/b (and thats fine) you need a way to recover life. Even if its elixir of immortality, you need something or reach just kills us. I lost SO many times to boros charm from the 4 to ya face clause it was ridiculous. I am even contemplating 2 dispels for the sideboard because of it.
Bad news indeed. lol
I do agree with most of your points after your testings.
Red aggro is really a tough MU.
Lifegain would be nice but there isn't much options if we stick to UB.
Maybe Nighthawks in the side?
Also, I really don't like the Elixir package but it may be the best option compared to the hawks.
Needs more testings, I think.
Imo, depending on the meta, it might be needed to add another color to the deck. Going either Esper or BUG since Grixis does have the same issue with lifegain.
By going Esper we can still play draw goish, while going BUG is a total change of gameplan (Dark Bant obviously).
i was only bringing up the past archetypes because you said in general that she doesnt fit in a control deck and thats just plain wrong. its about the only deck she fits in (enabling or not).
and again im just talking about liliana the card. im not saying anything about maindeck yet. i even wrote that in my previous post. and again i know what i want against aggro and i pointed out that i would still play all the diverse removal.
do you really talk about tapping out on turn three for liliana as not bein draw go and suggesting augur of bolas in the same post? that doesnt make any sense to me even if i find that argument bad. i mean liliana is one of those big spells. you dont need to paly her on turn 3 you can play her when youd be playing another big spell to lock down your opponent with counter/removal mana back up.
again im not saying she needs to be a 4 of in every UB list but i just wanna point out her strength and that shes a really strong card not to be overlooked. and i emphasize it again that its all about how the meta will play out and which cards are gonna be played. she is far from unplayable as you make her out to be. (she might be if the meta is all aggro but that most likely wont happen and again we dont know that yet).
so i just dont get why you keep discussing against me so much because its not like i say every UB draw go deck needs to play liliana. i just want her not be forgotten as a strong card for this archetype.
You keep telling that she fits in control but I still don't see her anywhere besides Jund.
Not talking about about BUG Control in Legacy where she's just nuts overall but that's another story.
Anyways I should have been more precise and should have said that she does not fit in a standard control shell really well, if you're playing draw go.
She does fit better in more tap out oriented lists obviously.
The fact is that if you want to play UB (not UB/x!), you better be playing Draw go.
If you want to play tap out control, you better splash green and add thragtusk and farseek or maybe another color, I dunno.
As for Augurs, he is just CA and the best early option against aggro atm.
I'm fine tapping out on turn 2.
But turn 3 onwards? Hell no, especially if I'm on the draw.
Things are getting bad for us on turn 3 or 4 where you want to hold on to your dissipates.
As for me arguing about the card, I guess it reminds me a bit too much of the controversy about her last season and since she did not get better since...
Anyways I do get your point and I'll calm down a little.
I did get too excited about a UB thread in the competitive section but so far it looks mostly like a "standard deck creation" thread which does go in every direction as people post more stuff. Nothing much looking promising tbh.
again shes not that bad against this big part of the meta. and i dont mean that she should kill the creatures against the decks that run few but in those matchups her +1 ability usually shines... we have much more draw and flashback and snapcaster than most decks and thats why liliana fits in a control shell because we can support or endure her +1.
on top of that all other edict effects are bad against undying, thragtusk and zombies too. she has the upside of being able to disrupt their hand as well. you cant deny her versatility.
this is all pure theory craft. the meta will be quite chaotic for a short time and then will stabilize more or less so there isnt a point in declaring alot of things maindeck material. im just rating the card in itself and even when i compare her to the meta she isnt that bad against aggro and especially not midrange (exception being zombies but the other edict effect are poor as well and again you can still user her to disrupt their hand... gravecrawler isnt that big of an issue since they will most likely be played quickly) and shes awesome against tap out control and tempo.
edit: since her printing she was pretty much only played in control shells (especially UB, Solar Flare and Grixis). only jund and sometimes reanimator play her and i dont see her bein good in jund at all and in reanimator shes an enabler.
What is the point in looking at her role in pas archetypes?
She was an enabler in Solar flare with Sun Titan around and Unburial Rites.
She was played in UB but was far from a staple.
Adam Prosak had success with her in his list but and she gained popularity for that time. At the end of this season she was either played as a 2 of or not at all...
As for Grixis, I think Reid Duke played the card but I did not follow the evolution of this archetype at that time so I can't say much about it.
Concerning her versatility, as I said in a previous post, it is a bit of a trap.
Quite a few decks can deal with her +1.
Not coming back to zombies, smiters, etc.
I do agree that she is good against UW Flash though.
She's also not too shabby against Bant, even though they can deal with her with D Sphere or counters.
So you are tuning your list to improve MU's which are already descent as I see it.
The real issue is that the deck do not hold well against aggro and you don't want to waste MD slots for her. Play more removals / Augurs is the way to go. You want to go instant and diversify with Slips / Devour / Ultimate Price and counters with the much needed sweeper (Mutilate).
You need to play reactively at instant speed early on.
You truly do not want to tap out on turn 3 for an edict effect which is her primary fonction after all.
If you do not agree then rename the topic and ditch the "draw go" part.
Draw go wants to tap out for big spells when things are settled and be reactive most of the time.
i know that devour flesh is the better effect if you just want the edict effect and i would still play devour flesh together with liliana but shes much more than that. devour flesh will always make the opponent sacrifice a creature. liliana can do that as well + she can use her discard abilty and she stays on the battlefield thus allowing her to be a 2-1 or even more. liliana is versatile. shes effective against decks that dont run many creatures where devour flesh and any other 1-1 removal isnt that great and shes not a bad card against aggro.
the thing is that she works with this point removal because you can keep the battlefield clear with both and lock the opponent down a bit.
i mean it all comes down to how the meta will be with gatcrash but i dont think it will be like two thirds hyper aggressive aggro builds. so lilliana will be great against a big part of the meta while still being quite good against the other.
and i wasnt looking for answer to the bant hexproof deck. i just pointed out that this is an aggro variant against which shes really good. granted that she doesnt work with snapcaster tho as the other edict effects.
Fact is that she is poorly positioned in the current meta already.
She's only played in Jund and even though, she is not auto include.
Esper is not playing her and that's the only UB/x control deck showing good results quite frequently. Some would argue that you can find her in some list (MB or SB), but that is not common at all.
She is mid range material and does not fit in a control shell that well.
I'm saying this considering the current meta and tier lists.
Even against decks playing a few creature she is not that good because most threats are resillient.
Just for say Thragtusk, Angels, undyings are still everywhere.
yeah typhoid rats are a very bad idea. horrible topdeck later on. and early on they will most likely kill a creature that you would have gotten with slip or dead weight.
i dont like sleep. aetherize is just way better and that card isnt even that good.
on the liliana topic:
shes not that bad against aggro. pretty much something like tribute to hunger. she gets rid of a creature and will get attacked the next turn thus saving you some life... thats not bad at all... if you are on the verge of stabilizing shes awesome even against aggro (play her on an empty board or with counter/removal back up). she also keeps the late game tragic slips viable. and thats just her worse case scenario matchup. oh and gravecrawlers wont likely be in hand when she comes down.
against midrange and control shes great if you can cope with her discarding ability better than them. and dont forget the hexproof enchantment decks. shes a house against those.
Well tbh Tribute to Hunger has better synergy with Snapcaster then her.
Also Tribute has always been a bit too slow, thus why it is not seeing a lot of play.
Anyways Devour Flesh just trumps both of the aforementionneed cards.
You want answers to hexproof decks? Mutilate and (again) Devour Flesh + Snap
I think I might cram some typhoid rats in main as Rogon suggested, and possibly increase my augur count despite the dis-synergy of adding both at the same time. The rats deal with just about everything save ash zealot or anything in the air, and augur is a very high chance cantrip with 20-25 instant/sorceries with relevant toughness. More testing reports to come probably tomorrow, I've got a busy night tonight. I don't have any GTC cards yet and have plans tomorrow so I won't be making FNM but I do a lot of online testing when I have free time during the day.
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I must have missed something but since when is Typhoid rats a card?
Especially in a control shell.
You would be better with more removals or Augurs.
Seriously, Typhoid freaking rats?
I'm not trying to be mean but I'm kinda mind blown.
Cant say your wrong, its just your playing against different decks, and your right, undying was always a problem for removal anyway, and no less so for Liliana. I think she works well in my build because of snapcaster mages and quite a bit of point kill. I see Liliana as another reusable source of options that compliment my goal of disruption of resources, whether hand or creature. On a sidenote, what I wouldnt do for a surgical extraction effect..........
Currently, my problem is I cannot manage enough swamps by turn 4 for an effective mutilate, which has me considering other options to either fill the role (difficult) or become more reliant on point kill and snapcaster mages with Liliana. Tomorrow will be a litmus test of sorts to see. If anyone has suggestions what to do about mutilate, or alternative defensive strategies, relay your thoughts.
I just would like to know against wich deck are you testing her?
I do like the card and I'm a huge fan as well but when I'm being pragmatic, I come to the conclusion that she better not be in my 60's.
As far as I know, she's a poor md choice in a competitive meta where you'll face aggro all day long. Most of those lists are indeed doing quite well against her.
The point is to improve the poorest MU for our archetype and to me she just does not make the cut.
She may seems versatile against aggro and control in theory but in actual testing she's not.
She's clearly not well positionned against the meta as I see it right now.
I think the card belongs to Jund and mid range strategy.
UB does not want to tap out for her on turn 3 imo.
Even Esper does not want to tap out her now that I think of it.
I can't say with an authority that Liliana of the Veil is amazing, but in my limited testing against my friends boros aggro, she has helped me in some situations. Examples:
Liliana comes down and I force a sacrifice. Next turn she dies to a haste attack phase. I'm ok here since she soaked up damage and at least bought a turn.
I have another Liliana in my hand. Viable to use her as a point removal effect.
The opponent falls behind on aggressive curvature. I resolve Liliana and force a sacrifice, thus creating difficulty for a come back.
I can time an eoturn devour flesh/dimir charm, followup mainphase Liliana. Good feeling.
I am behind on board. Liliana wont help me.
My opponent is on control. Resolving her is a serious beating.
On a clean board, her discard ability grinds hands down and forces topdecks to be played immediately.
Liliana of the Veil is curved perfectly between devour flesh/dimir charm and mutilate.
On the last note of some bounce spell as a catchall is a good thing. Cyclonic rift is my weapon of choice for this role.
In testings, she's still quite weak against most aggro, may it be Rakdos / Golgari / Selesnya or Naya. She's not that stellar against Jund too which also plays her as a 3/4 of.
She will die to haste, Dreadbore or will help them dump gravecrawlers etc.
She also does not help against the one critter I find really annoying:
Geralf's Messenger
I do agree she might be good against Bant and UW Flash but that is not the MUs I want to improve.
This is why I advocated a removal package consisting of early responses like tragic slip, curving into devour flesh/dimir charm, then liliana of the veil into mutilate. Also, snapcaster mages. You need alot of removal to survive as well as diversification in removal spells.
Counterspells. I'm not saying pay none (although thats perfectly viable), but playing more than 3-4 I believe is hazardous. Not just because of Cavern of Souls (although that is reason enough). I understand etb dorks demand a solid one for one, and a counterspell is the only way to achieve it. Also being able to stop noncreature spells is important in some matches (control) to a point. Ironically, I play a single negate and 1 dissipate, 1 psychic strike as my counters. Just enough to squeak by. I also play a single cyclonic rift for a little flexiblity lategame. Honestly, against the control mirror, dyard is what wins, sometimes a negate on a planeswalker and most definitley duress. I already mainboard 4 liliana of the veil which gives me a huge advantage versus control mirrors game one as well as ndyards.
Mutilate. I feel its necessary. You cant one for one all the time without falling behind, even with liliana's sacrifice effect. You need to catch up somehow and create a two for one of your own. I know evolving wilds suck, no disagreement there, but its the only option to hit enough swamps by turn 4. You need to hit four swamps by turn 4.
Strategy. I play to hate aggro, thats what I want my control deck to crush game one. I'll take a bit weaker game one versus control game one, although its not weak with 4 ndyards and 4 liliana of the veils but meh. Pick an archtype to demolish, use the sideboard to make up for weaknesses to strengthen or weaknesses to exploit from other archtypes, and of course metagame a little and aim to fight cards that really suck lol.
I do agree with most of your post, although I'm still unsure how good will be Liliana of the Veil when the meta shapes up more.
For the moment I prefer to shy away from her now that we have access to a 2cc edict effect. Furthermore, she does not really help in MU I find problematic.
Anyways we'll see how she does soon.
As for Mutilate, I do like to play this card as a 3 of.
Otherwise my 4cc slot would be too crowded (playing Sever the bloodline, Jace AoT and such).
UB really needs a sweeper and Mutilate is just fine.
Playing only 2 colors makes this card more suited for our archetype as well since our swamp base is not as dilluted as Esper's for say.
Also, Aetherize might be a nice one of. I like to have at least one bounce effect in my control lists.
As for people playing Consuming Aberration as a finisher. I just find it aweful.
Do you want to win through damage or mill?
Sure it's big, but for that cost it does not help the gameplan as much as Jace, memory adept in comparison.
Sepulchral Primordial is better imo, since you can zombify opposing Angels and chain his ability accordingly.
Adding green for Farseek, garruk, and Vraska is probably your best bet. Turn 3 Jace AoT is pretty good against aggro
By going BUG, you do change strategy though.
BUG is more tap-out control with Farseek, Thrag (maybe even Deathrite shaman)...
Staying UB lets you play more draw-go which is what most people are looking for in this thread.
Esper is also nice but Mutilate seems to be better than Verdict upon Gatecrash release. Plus, Skullcrack will be punishing Sphinx's / Thrag quite bad so it may not be as necessary to splash white for these cards.
Ultimate price is indeed needed.
I try to fit at least 2 main in my list.
It's narrow but still has relevant targets most of the time.
Also, still trying to find a good number for Elixir, maybe 1 or 2.
I can't find myself dedicating more spot to that card.
Bad news indeed. lol
I do agree with most of your points after your testings.
Red aggro is really a tough MU.
Lifegain would be nice but there isn't much options if we stick to UB.
Maybe Nighthawks in the side?
Also, I really don't like the Elixir package but it may be the best option compared to the hawks.
Needs more testings, I think.
Imo, depending on the meta, it might be needed to add another color to the deck. Going either Esper or BUG since Grixis does have the same issue with lifegain.
By going Esper we can still play draw goish, while going BUG is a total change of gameplan (Dark Bant obviously).
I still have hopes that UB is viable though.
You keep telling that she fits in control but I still don't see her anywhere besides Jund.
Not talking about about BUG Control in Legacy where she's just nuts overall but that's another story.
Anyways I should have been more precise and should have said that she does not fit in a standard control shell really well, if you're playing draw go.
She does fit better in more tap out oriented lists obviously.
The fact is that if you want to play UB (not UB/x!), you better be playing Draw go.
If you want to play tap out control, you better splash green and add thragtusk and farseek or maybe another color, I dunno.
As for Augurs, he is just CA and the best early option against aggro atm.
I'm fine tapping out on turn 2.
But turn 3 onwards? Hell no, especially if I'm on the draw.
Things are getting bad for us on turn 3 or 4 where you want to hold on to your dissipates.
As for me arguing about the card, I guess it reminds me a bit too much of the controversy about her last season and since she did not get better since...
Anyways I do get your point and I'll calm down a little.
I did get too excited about a UB thread in the competitive section but so far it looks mostly like a "standard deck creation" thread which does go in every direction as people post more stuff. Nothing much looking promising tbh.
Still shocked by the typhoid rats.
What is the point in looking at her role in pas archetypes?
She was an enabler in Solar flare with Sun Titan around and Unburial Rites.
She was played in UB but was far from a staple.
Adam Prosak had success with her in his list but and she gained popularity for that time. At the end of this season she was either played as a 2 of or not at all...
As for Grixis, I think Reid Duke played the card but I did not follow the evolution of this archetype at that time so I can't say much about it.
Concerning her versatility, as I said in a previous post, it is a bit of a trap.
Quite a few decks can deal with her +1.
Not coming back to zombies, smiters, etc.
I do agree that she is good against UW Flash though.
She's also not too shabby against Bant, even though they can deal with her with D Sphere or counters.
So you are tuning your list to improve MU's which are already descent as I see it.
The real issue is that the deck do not hold well against aggro and you don't want to waste MD slots for her. Play more removals / Augurs is the way to go. You want to go instant and diversify with Slips / Devour / Ultimate Price and counters with the much needed sweeper (Mutilate).
You need to play reactively at instant speed early on.
You truly do not want to tap out on turn 3 for an edict effect which is her primary fonction after all.
If you do not agree then rename the topic and ditch the "draw go" part.
Draw go wants to tap out for big spells when things are settled and be reactive most of the time.
Fact is that she is poorly positioned in the current meta already.
She's only played in Jund and even though, she is not auto include.
Esper is not playing her and that's the only UB/x control deck showing good results quite frequently. Some would argue that you can find her in some list (MB or SB), but that is not common at all.
She is mid range material and does not fit in a control shell that well.
I'm saying this considering the current meta and tier lists.
Even against decks playing a few creature she is not that good because most threats are resillient.
Just for say Thragtusk, Angels, undyings are still everywhere.
As for aggro critters, she's just bad against:
- Strangleroot geist
- Loxodon smiter
- Haste creeps
- Zombies
You can argue all you want I just don't see how you can say she's worth playing when she's bad against such a big part of the field.
As far as I know, aggro and mid range are being dominant so far...
If I recall correctly Rakdos Aggro won SCG Dallas recently.
Well tbh Tribute to Hunger has better synergy with Snapcaster then her.
Also Tribute has always been a bit too slow, thus why it is not seeing a lot of play.
Anyways Devour Flesh just trumps both of the aforementionneed cards.
You want answers to hexproof decks? Mutilate and (again) Devour Flesh + Snap
I must have missed something but since when is Typhoid rats a card?
Especially in a control shell.
You would be better with more removals or Augurs.
Seriously, Typhoid freaking rats?
I'm not trying to be mean but I'm kinda mind blown.
I just would like to know against wich deck are you testing her?
I do like the card and I'm a huge fan as well but when I'm being pragmatic, I come to the conclusion that she better not be in my 60's.
As far as I know, she's a poor md choice in a competitive meta where you'll face aggro all day long. Most of those lists are indeed doing quite well against her.
The point is to improve the poorest MU for our archetype and to me she just does not make the cut.
She may seems versatile against aggro and control in theory but in actual testing she's not.
She's clearly not well positionned against the meta as I see it right now.
I think the card belongs to Jund and mid range strategy.
UB does not want to tap out for her on turn 3 imo.
Even Esper does not want to tap out her now that I think of it.
In testings, she's still quite weak against most aggro, may it be Rakdos / Golgari / Selesnya or Naya. She's not that stellar against Jund too which also plays her as a 3/4 of.
She will die to haste, Dreadbore or will help them dump gravecrawlers etc.
She also does not help against the one critter I find really annoying:
Geralf's Messenger
I do agree she might be good against Bant and UW Flash but that is not the MUs I want to improve.
Just my opinion though.
I do agree with most of your post, although I'm still unsure how good will be Liliana of the Veil when the meta shapes up more.
For the moment I prefer to shy away from her now that we have access to a 2cc edict effect. Furthermore, she does not really help in MU I find problematic.
Anyways we'll see how she does soon.
As for Mutilate, I do like to play this card as a 3 of.
Otherwise my 4cc slot would be too crowded (playing Sever the bloodline, Jace AoT and such).
UB really needs a sweeper and Mutilate is just fine.
Playing only 2 colors makes this card more suited for our archetype as well since our swamp base is not as dilluted as Esper's for say.
Also, Aetherize might be a nice one of. I like to have at least one bounce effect in my control lists.
As for people playing Consuming Aberration as a finisher. I just find it aweful.
Do you want to win through damage or mill?
Sure it's big, but for that cost it does not help the gameplan as much as Jace, memory adept in comparison.
Sepulchral Primordial is better imo, since you can zombify opposing Angels and chain his ability accordingly.
Just my 2 cents.
We don't "have" to lose G1 when we're playing the following cards:
Augur of Bolas
Tragic Slip
Devour Flesh
Mutilate
Jace AoT
Curse of Death's Hold
I still don't get why people are not playing Jace AoT at least as a 2of.
He's a great engine and helps against aggro.
Tapping-out for a Jace is totally justified to me.
Jace AoT is begging to be in here or Amass the components maybe.
Mutilate would also be nice.
Also, no Snapcaster?
You want to be flashing Slip, Devour and counters all day long!
He's easily a 3 to 4 of in Blue based control lists.
Also, why no Forbidden alchemy? It's still a pretty powerful spell when you're digging for a specific card.
For 1cc, the parasite is pretty much one of the best extort card with Blind obedience.
Which card would you consider better than those?
I do like Thrull Parasite a lot.
Extort and can keep in check a PW or evolve guy.
The Ghast seems quite weak in comparison.
By going BUG, you do change strategy though.
BUG is more tap-out control with Farseek, Thrag (maybe even Deathrite shaman)...
Staying UB lets you play more draw-go which is what most people are looking for in this thread.
Esper is also nice but Mutilate seems to be better than Verdict upon Gatecrash release. Plus, Skullcrack will be punishing Sphinx's / Thrag quite bad so it may not be as necessary to splash white for these cards.