MTG Salvation

If he does not like the style of play in his new LGS, I would suggest he talk to his playgroup about it, like we are all expected to do. If I were a new guy in a group, I would feel like it would be presumptuous to ask everyone to change to meet my expectations.

If this is very difficult or impossible because he is playing pickup games with relative strangers... well, that’s kind of the position many of us have been in for years now.

I hope Sheldon leads by example on this and shows us how it’s supposed to be done.

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Quote from d0su »

What I can safely say is that if you are willing to go to 5 strictly to find Sol Ring or Mana Crypt, the "First-Free London" mulligan rule is more likely to find them (44.6%) than the old First-Free mulligan (40.8%), Partial Paris (33.2%), or even First-Free Partial Paris (44.3%). And now, your resulting 5-card hand also has a good chance of being decent in its own right since you basically get a 0-mana Faithless Looting tacked on.

Aren't you basing these numbers of a wrong assumption? Maybe other people are different but I've never mulliganed for Sol Ring. I mulligan for a solid hand that does things vs the table. "More likely to find card X when aggressively mulling for it" doesn't seem that descriptive of the quality of a mulliganing system.

Well part of the problem is that the goalposts for such discussions tend to shift. When Partial Paris was relatively new, first the main point of contention was that you could more easily piece together 2-card combos (true, but impractical). Then it was that certain “problematic” cards would show up more often because you didn’t shuffle between hands (not true). Then it was that hands already containing those certain cards would be higher quality (sometimes true).

The subject is too deep and the rulesets too numerous to calculate everything, and so I started with specific complaints/truth claims that were circulating on the forums at the time. I hope you understand.

But either way, I expect more Sol Ring games to happen organically, even if we aren’t consciously digging for it:
- The presence of Sol Ring has a strong correlation with a hand’s “keepability”
- Mulligans are more likely to occur now that they are more forgiving
- Given that a player mulligans, they will see more cards than than in other systems

I don’t feel strongly about it either way, I just find the subject interesting, and I do what I can to help us all understand it better.

Quote from MRHblue »

What data did you use to determine 1st turn Sol Ring was less prevalent with PP?

I used math. Excel does Hypergeometric distributions, and I calculated the likelihood of your opening hand containing Sol Ring or Mana Crypt with either method, assuming you were intentionally going to six or five just to find it. I also took a stab at calculating if the hand was "playable" or not, which I assumed meant containing at least 2 lands. The spreadsheets were on my old computer so I don't have it in front of me, but I could recreate it if you think it would be useful to the discussion.

What I can safely say is that if you are willing to go to 5 strictly to find Sol Ring or Mana Crypt, the "First-Free London" mulligan rule is more likely to find them (44.6%) than the old First-Free mulligan (40.8%), Partial Paris (33.2%), or even First-Free Partial Paris (44.3%). And now, your resulting 5-card hand also has a good chance of being decent in its own right since you basically get a 0-mana Faithless Looting tacked on.

So that's the reason for my hesitancy. Feel free to double-check my numbers because I'm just as fallible as anyone.

Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant had always piqued my interest, but something was always holding me back from building the deck. Among those reasons is that the deckbuilding process presents lots of questions that have no easy answer.

What should the deck be doing prior to flipping Sasaya?
What should you do if the opponent is just sitting on a Disenchant?
How do you even begin to figure out the best land/nonland ratio?

I never felt like I had anything to add to the "stock" Sasaya decklists (if such things actually exist), but I finally just built something as a starting point and started tinkering with it.



What I found to be of great help was trimming the land count from 60-something to just 45-ish, and filling those extra slots with creatures that find lands, like Sylvan Ranger: this gives you a way to spend your early mana, lets you represent early chump blockers to divert the voltron players, and gives you extra bodies to throw around once you resolve Ursapine later.

Straight-up ramp spells fill the other extra slots, especially ones that put lands into play untapped. Once Sasaya is flipped, every Nature's Lore you cast is like a big Dark Ritual. Plus, ramp spells get cards out of your hand so your Yavimaya Elder effects don't force you to discard.

Speaking of which, card draw effects you can use at instant speed (like Mind Stone, Wild-field Scarecrow, Realms Uncharted) are at a premium. The typical plan is to sculpt your hand EOT, untap, cast Sasaya, and flip it right away. Instant-speed effects temporarily circumvent the 7-card maximum hand size, so you can meet Sasaya's requirements and still have things to do with the mana. They also save mana on your own turn, so you can try to generate a decisive advantage immediately after casting Sasaya. This is why I have given them preference to cards like Gaea's Bounty and Seek the Horizon.

The biggest tradeoff for taking the "normal land count" approach is that you can't just topdeck lands as reliably as before. It also makes your Scrying Sheets and Abundance a bit worse. However, it also makes cards like Genesis/Temur Sabretooth/Sensei's Divining Top a bit better, and it means that in Sasaya's absence you can maybe play Magic like a normal deck instead of doing the draw-go mana flood thing.

The actual endgame is usually Ursapine, Aetherflux Reservoir, or whatever Grinning Totem happens to dig up. Last time, Grinning Totem got me an opponent's Aetherflux Reservoir.

--

Any feedback or suggestions are welcome. Let me know what you think!

Without seeing your deck list I can't say for sure, but 35 seems low. I probably wouldn't cut another land.

When you say you are "flooding more often than not", there are some other things to consider: how prevalent are Howling Mine effects in your playgroup? It's is hard to imagine you flooding consistently unless you are used to drawing a lot of extra cards. It would suck to cut a land, only to find your deck stop working when your playgroup decides to drop Nekusar, for example.

Another thing is, how does your playgroup handle mulligans? Loose mulligans mean you can get away with fewer lands. Do you get more than one "free" mulligan like Sheldon's group? When someone goes down to 5 and still has trouble, do you show mercy and let them draw back up to 7? Just consider the possibility that if your mulligan rules are lax, you may be just be relying on the good graces of your friends if you maintain a land count that is too low.

My general advice in this format is, play more utility lands, and play more cheap card draw. Hope this helps.

For the last few days, I have been getting redirected to an error page intermittently when trying to load the forums, while other areas of the site seem to be working properly. This happens across a variety of locations, platforms, and devices.

Is there currently maintenance in progress, i.e. is this a known issue / expected behavior?

I don't downplay my own threats, and I'll call you out on it if you downplay yours. Honesty is the best policy!

If your stuff is the best target for their removal, just own it and move forward with the game. Games will get more enjoyable, and actually easier to steer in the direction you want, if everyone is competent at threat assessment.

Don't hold the win over someone's head but refuse to pull the trigger. If you have the combo on board, just do it -- opting out cheapens the experience for everyone else. I did this once and got a swift rebuke.

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Quote from Cakeifier »

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Teferi's Protection still doesn't dodge me donating Phage the Untouchable to you by saccing her with Endless Whispers on the field. I foresee Teferi's pee break will be an "extended pee and go get Taco Bell" while you wait for the rest of the players in the game to finish.

Giving the caster pro-everything prevents you from giving them Phage.

No it doesn't. Protection from everything doesn't prevent you from losing the game, protection only means you as the player means the following: you can't be enchanted, you can't be the target of spells or abilities, and all damage that would be dealt to you is prevented. Phage is a triggered ability that goes on the stack under the protection from everything player's control, then Phage's ability resolves and since it doesn't target, you lose the game.

The Endless Whispers trigger targets the player; since the player has protection from Endless Whispers, they are not a legal target for the ability.

Yup, Insult // Injury is just as good as expected. It is a much needed out to Deflecting Palm, which some folks have started saving just for me. You just have to remember it turns off your Glacial Chasm. I cut Mana Flare for it, which was easily the most situational card in the deck.

Other than that, Squee is still chugging along. It nicely straddles the line between casual jank and competitive threat. If I could only have one M:tG deck, it would be this one.

If for some reason Watcher doesn't have any abilities, such as losing them all due to being Imprisoned, when it leaves the battlefield its owner won't get the exiled card. This is because the ability to return the card is its own separate ability that needs to exist when its trigger condition is met to have an effect. As opposed to the ending of a duration effect that doesn't care if the original ability exists still when its duration ends, such as Banishing Light.

If Watcher loses and regains its abilities it will function as normal, such as being imprisoned and then freed. As long as the ability exists at the time its trigger condition is met it will return the exiled card. Losing and regaining its own abilities doesn't reset them.

Not much have changed, but just wanted to tell I still play this deck and still loving it. Newest add is Finale of Promise, which looks promising, though I havn't drawn it yet. I cut Commune with Lava for it, since it was always a bit odd to play. And this deck already draws a lot. Bonus Round is properly also a new add, though I've added it a while back. But again, same story, I havn't actually played the card yet. But I imagine it will be all kind of bonkers. As for the decklist, here goes:

Quote from d0su »

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I

CAN'T STOP THIS FEELING

LOL i guess i pocket posted..

I applaud your creativity.

Quote from d0su »

Quote from crumbcrispcoating »

Quote from Cakeifier »

Quote from crumbcrispcoating »

Teferi's Protection still doesn't dodge me donating Phage the Untouchable to you by saccing her with Endless Whispers on the field. I foresee Teferi's pee break will be an "extended pee and go get Taco Bell" while you wait for the rest of the players in the game to finish.

Giving the caster pro-everything prevents you from giving them Phage.

No it doesn't. Protection from everything doesn't prevent you from losing the game, protection only means you as the player means the following: you can't be enchanted, you can't be the target of spells or abilities, and all damage that would be dealt to you is prevented. Phage is a triggered ability that goes on the stack under the protection from everything player's control, then Phage's ability resolves and since it doesn't target, you lose the game.

The Endless Whispers trigger targets the player; since the player has protection from Endless Whispers, they are not a legal target for the ability.

Actually, Endless Whispers grants the ability to all creatures, so it's the protection from Phage that matters, rather than the protection from Endless Whispers. Same result, of course.

Quote from d0su »

I completely agree. If we need a card dedicated to giving haste, I think Anger is the best bet, since a) it gives haste without spending a cage trigger, and b) it is a great target for the Entomb/Buried Alive/Intuition stuff that will fuel the deck.

I don't mind haste on cards where you're also getting something else out of it. Marchesa's Smuggler for haste + unblockable + targeting other creatures + not needing to be caged to be effective is defensible, Skithiryx giving some additional protection is worse but still OK, and I don't think I'd really consider the rest.

After giving your list a look I have to confess that I really like the way in which you approach reaching your seven land in hand quota. The interaction between effects that put lands into your graveyard like Harrow and Crop Rotation combined with the recursive cards like Nostalgic Dreams is something I think I appreciate. There are quite a number of cards like Sprouting Vines and Wildest Dreams that feel like they have a home here whereas most other decks would prefer different cards.

Some thoughts:

• Have you considered playing the admittedly goodstuffy Oracle of Mul Daya and Courser of Kruphix? They allow you to play land cards from the top of your library, so you can continue to make land drops each turn without decreasing the number of lands you hold in hand for Sasaya.
• Creeping Renaissance may be a card you're interested in. Groundskeeper exists as well.
• I'm not a fan of most of the cards in your tech category. If this were my deck, I would consider new ways to spend your vast trove of mana once you've acquired it. There are a lot of interesting ways to spend a million mana.

Also, sweet gif.

I dunno if it's your style but various x spells seem really good with sasaya. Hurricane, for example, will just win if you have the most life (or if you play glacial chasm). There's also the various hydras and even stuff like Stream of Life if you're feeling janky. tho tbh you've probably heard all that before

overall it looks like a pretty sweet list, i think it's a good call with the instant-speed land grabbers. how consistently are you able to flip Sasaya?

the only thing i'd add would be more pay-off cards so that you can win fast after getting to mega mana land. that's what I was thinking with hurricane. sprout swarm is also another option, since you can use it to make a ton of saprolings at instant speed and surprise kill someone (there's gotta be an +x/+x to all creatures spell?). it also goes great with aetherflux resevoir

book of rass is slick tech. try also tower of fortunes for big mana draw

anyway just some thoughts, digging the deck!

Quote from hyalapterouslemur »

Quote from Lithl »

I used to do 40, -1 for every 2 ramp cards. Now I lean more towards 8x8 builds (pick 8 effects, get 8 cards for that effect, add lands until you hit 100), with one of my 8 effects being ramp.

There is something to be said for the "-1 for every 2 ramp cards", and that something is "Why are you playing ramp again?"

When I played like that, I had a rule that it only applied if the ramp card cost 3 or less.

It's very specific to ramp cards. I have very specific reasons for running mana dorks and mana rocks. (Armageddon insurance.)

Yeah, playing a ramp card and missing your land drop is literally wasting the mana you spent on casting the mana rock. So basically the first time you miss a land drop, you may as well have played any card that let you grab another land from your deck instead of the ramp. Ofc, barring situations like wanting to cast a 4 mana general consistently on T3, or what have you.

The problem with the question is that players feel that there is a magic number (38, 40, whatever) that guarantees that they will not get screwed. Or at least minimizes the chances that they will as much as mathematically possible, so as to reassure players when it does happen that it couldn’t have been avoided. The math that actually impacts this the most is that you have 7 cards in your opening hand, and the game makes you take 1 in 3 shots each turn at getting any more mana. Upgrading that chance from a strict 1 in 3 to a 2 in 5 is not a very big difference. Giving yourself more 1 in 3 chances is better.

If you are waffling between running more lands, more ramp cards, or more draw (3cmc or less), then go with draw every single time. Once you have enough draw to consistently access enough mana for your big draw spells (Greed, Recurring Insight, Conc Sphinx, what have you), that’s when you start including ramp cards that are there just for the sake of ramp. Again, as opposed to making a certain mana count as early as possible, which is a separate goal.

This is why you see a lot of decks with 34-36 land and huge mana budgets, where in a format like Standard, any deck with 6cmc cards in it would probably have 25 or more land. There are numerous cheap draw spells in EDH. Putting in 35 land to your deck, counting your rocks, then failing to run any of the cheap draw and cursing the gods when you hit screw, that’s a recipe for frustration.

Btw, I love the Basic Landcycling cards from Commander 2016.

Quote from d0su »

On a related note, does anyone know how long the 5-color ban list was at its peak? I cannot find an archive anywhere.

December 2006 - 5-color had 27 banned cards and 77 restricted cards.
To give you some added perspective, the format was played for ante so this doesn't include the ante cards. Falling Star and Chaos Orb were also legal. This was also just after Time Spiral was released, so 32 sets plus all the Commander, Conspiracy, Planechase, Archenemeny, and a bunch of Core Set cards have been printed since then. I think that this was right about when they figured out that the format was just too broken to try to and fix via a banned list. When you have to go so deep to try and ban tutors that you are banning transmute cards and things like Divining Witch, you've gotta know that something is just fundamentally wrong.

Here is an idea:

Sol Ring is played in almost every commander deck, thanks to every single precon making them widly available.

What if EDH has a rule that in your command zone at the start of the game, you had both your commander and Sol Ring? You could cast Ring like normal, but if it died it would ineligable for the commander replacment effect so it would just go to the graveyard.

No unfair games where somebody gets the Sol Ring boost, since now everybody has the same advantage.

How will the games play out? Next time I play, I'll run this test and report back.