I don't actually think Alesha works with tarmogoyf, since tarmogoy's power and toughness is checked the graveyard. So if he has 3+ power it wont bring him back
Really? His power in the GY is not 0? Interesting...
Another reason why I don't need to get goyf lol.
*'s are checked in all zones at all times. It is a property of the card.
Static abilities on the card itself (i.e. KotR getting +1/+1 per land in the GY) are not, unless otherwise stated...
So i got some time to talk and im taking a break from writing, so id like to use the moment to start a discussion. I wanna talk and debate about zoo, but not zoos cards, but rather zoo in our new meta, as well as where we fit in . Before i delve too deep, heres the two questions i think we hav to ask, and ill give my view on it.
1. What should zoo be doing? As in, what direction should the deck go, sub type and what not.
2. What makes us better than our brothers affinity or rdw? Or even junk?
Before i can attempt to answer these i have to take into mind our environment... Truthfully we are now in a meta of aggro, midrange and combo and "control". Turns out that pod was holding back aggro, a suprise to everyone (but aggro players), so aggro is viable now, and has maybe a 45-55 bad match ip against midrange. That aggro is zoo affinity and burn, mostly. Yes thats not all of them.. But thats pretty much the big ones.
Then on midrange we got junk. Jund isnt really around still , nothings holding it back from being a thing, just rhino is good. Then there is like real junk, using paths smiters, finks, ect. Its junk to beat the rock decks with white. And weirdly enough, tokens. Tokens are a thing in this meta.
Following this we got combo, twin and amulet. Amulet is balls the the walls combo. Storm and living end show up at the tail end here.
Lastly we have control, twin and scapeshift. I say control loosely, but its a known fact that these guys play control against us. They use a combo to win, but they bring in removal wipes and stablizers like batterskull.
So, we can kinda figure out here what theyre doing. Junk is being attrition, grimd games out long, get their threat sticking while forcing the opponent to putter with no gas. Rock is more focused on 1 for 1 with a hard treat, junk is using the 1 for 1s as an opening to win with multiple softer threats.
Burn is speed aggro. Affinity is basicly tribal aggro, its tribe is artifacts. This means it can blow up outta no where to kill someone. Burn, again, is fast and hits hard but runs out of gas. affinity likewise grts hated out easily by hating on its tribe, artifacts, but runs out of gas leas because the critters sustain each other (kill a thopter, inkmoth picks up the plating)
Combo attacks like rdw, but from diffent angles. Harder to hate, but harder to pull off. Thats the kinda combo we have, spell based set up as fast as you can, one spell to go boom and youre done, 1 hit ko.
Our control is combo control. Its not they protect their combo and safely go off, they control the board, hand, stack, ect then go off. Thats important to know.
Now, thats where we should talk about us. Midrange zoo aint good. Junk does it better. Naya throws out haymakers, hoping blindly they win the game. Rock kills all of that and leaves us open. Junk keeps us off the firld long enough to win with their big guns. Its just a worse call.
We need to protect ourselves against the control and combo. That means either with a counter play ( counter play, not counter. Rest in peace vs living end as example) or go under it, be speedy. We arent going over the top so were left with those two options.
Now i left aggro for last. I went outta my weight to explain those guys so we can think of our strenghts and weakness in comparison to it. They are both faster than us. Even gruul zoo, the fastest zoo, doesnt out race rdw. And affinity does it better. Their dudes just explode with less work than ours. Not to mention evasion, flying, man lands and protection.
But, we also die less hard to hate. Anger, slagstorm, and firespout can hit us, but clasm, electrolize, and what not dont. Likewise, a decay aimed at nacatl is way worse for the opponent, than one at plating (we lose a card and a mana, they lose a card and 2 mana. Affinity loses a lord effect leaving them with worse creatures than before.). Creeping crossions dont kill us, neither does life gain.
To put it bluntly zoo is slower but more reliable aggro. Thats where are niche is. Keep it in mind. I dont think we are a 1 cmc deck anymorE. I think we are 2 cmc. Goyf, pridemage, decay, flames. At 3 we get giest too, as well as rhino. (With a bird) along with alot more side tech then thses 1 cmc aggro decks.
So i think thats the reason to go after mana dorks (no more than 6). We want to be aggro with a higher curve. Mind you thats NOT MIDRANGE. Its higher curved aggression. We use the accel to put better threats out. In that way, even our dorks are going for the throat, by letting us cast things. Nobles great here because of exalted. So. There we go.
Love to hear youre all thoughts on this.
I really think Domain is where we go with Zoo right now.
As for what it offers over other aggro? Unparalleled amount of reach. Tribal Flames + Snapcaster is 10 damage out of nowhere.
The best creatures in the format: The list runs Nacatl, Geist, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, and Rhino.
If you took a cross section of the highest performing creatures in the format you can play them all in Domain Zoo.
Given that we play 5 colors we get some of the best SB cards. You want to play Lingering Souls, Swan Song, Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, and Ancient Grudge all together? You want Wear//Tear and Abrupt Decay? You want Feed the Clan with plenty of enablers?
I think with Rhino and Goyf, we are more resistant to Non-Wrath sweepers than ever before. (We also have the option of Smiter, Wilt-Leaf Liege, and Voice, if we're particularly scared of Firespout)
I think Snapcaster paired with Dorks and Path gives us game vs. Twin. You also have Pridemage. It's going to take them awhile to be able to comfortably go off. And in that time you could have killed them or forced them to go for it.
I think Domain is well positioned vs. Abzan. They hate dork->geist. Lili can't answer it unless they aim a Decay or Dismember at the Dork, which is mighty good for you. And Domri can take over the matchup.
I've been having a great time testing vs. Abzan with the list i posted not too long ago.
Tested my list from a while back... Dont have nobles... replaced em with birds. then replaced the bird with steppe lynx. Also replaced the timey with feed the clan.
Decks working great! Its totally better with noble, I just dont own any. Its purely the exalted. Its not really that the mana accel is the reason its good, its the exalted, plus allowing you to run more expensive cards reliably. Anyways limited testing, but its been working out.
So big tribal zoo is working great with ghor-clan for over the topness? Would snap be a better replacement with that list in your opinion or would it just make it too blue heavy especially going from Giest into rhino?
So I started out with 2 Kird Ape, 4 E1, 4 Wild Nacatl in the 1 drop slot. And I was running Smiter over Geist, and Bob over Snap (And Tribal Flames was other burn). That was pretty decent, but E1 and Kird Ape are weak as hell top decks. I hated drawing them late. So i started exploring Pat Cox's Tribal Flames. Again, I hated Loam Lion and I hated Swiftspear. Loam Lion was a terrible top deck, and Swiftspear never did more than 1 damage a turn, early or late, it was just really awkward to try and extract more damage out of her with Burn and Path.
So i went with Birds, Nobles, and the whole Domain package (Geist, Snapcaster). And let me tell you about how your W% skyrockets when you T2 Geist of St. Traft, or when you Snapcaster back Tribal Flames for 5 damage.
Also, Watery Grave is a revelation for Domain, imo. It casts Snapcaster, Siege Rhino, and Geist. And isn't making you do awkward things like Fetch for double white (Hallowed Fountain) to Snapcaster back white spells or cast Geist. It also flashes back L. Souls. =]
The 1-ofs in the SB are a work in progress, as is Blood Moon. If i scrub out at GP Memphis i'll likely be taking this to Side Events and I might be able to gain some more knowledge outside of playtesting. But, I will say this version is a lean mean Abzan eating machine in its current iteration.
Really, I think Rhino and Snapcaster do GCR's job better in a Domain list. Rhino Provides Trample, and Snapcaster flashbacks Path and Tribal Flames to clear the path. And Snapcaster is pretty decent in the Twin MU.
Did Jesse not test this matchup? I know I'm being an armchair pro here by second guessing him, but that seemed like a GLARING misplay on his part with that TS/IoK turn.
He actually may not have. Titan Bloom is usually thought of as a tier 2 at best deck.
I think it's odd he didn't know what the deck was capable of doing with its combo pieces, though.
Either way, in a high stress situation against a deck you didn't put in any reps against, i suppose it's understandable he made a mistake.
I need help with the Bloom Titan deck. I run a Domain Zoo list. Any sideboard card suggestions for that match up?
Going fast and the full supply of Path to Exiles in the 75.
Their hive mind draw should be slower than you, and Titan should get hit with a Path, so they can't do crazy lifegain shenanigans.
If it's a huge problem (say, in your local meta. Or if it becomes a break out deck and sees an adequate amount of meta share) Zo-zu the Punisher should crush it.
Been playing Park's list since dtt banning and I am not happy with the way it performs although i kept winning a good bunch of games, but it seems that im crawling in every match to survive and find scapeshift or get to 7 Lands, i hate serum visions but im still playing 4, is peer an upgrade over telling time?
Peer is better for finding Cryptics and Scapeshifts.
Telling Time is better for fixing your mana and for finding Snapcasters.
Now that DTT is banned, are people going to go back to playing Peer Through Depths? Serum Visions? I'm not sure what to replace the 3 I have in my deck with.
Telling Time is a little better than Peer Through Depths in certain situations. Mainly: Early on to fix mana, to have more outs for a ramp spell(steve) if you could win with it on the spot (Scapeshift + land in hand with 5 lands on the board), and when you SB in permanents like Wurmcoil or Vendilion Clique.
If Zoo becomes popular Izzet Charms can be bolts. If Jund gets popular 1 or 2 Kodama's Reach could be decent.
The SB could use work. Firespout is probably better than Anger. And Wurmcoil could go in there. I also like a Combust or two.
TC can happen as early as T3, and is guaranteed. BBE into AV happens on T4, and you're not very likely to hit it, barring a lucky Serum Visions set up.
And most RUG Delver builds literally only splash Green for Goyf and nothing else, sometimes Nature's Claim out the board, sometimes Destructive Revelry. But, I'm not sure they need the Enchantment hate those give over using Grudge/Shattering Spree/Shatterstorm/Vandalblast. Reid Duke's RUG shackles build only runs a few Huntersmasters on top of Goyf. And I'm not sure Huntsmaster is particularly good with so many Pyroclasms and Forked Bolts running around
But, I think I'm missing why the contents of a T2 deck is important to you.
As for the talk about BBE+AV decks missing out on being able to run Counterspells like their Shardless Agent Legacy Cousins.
Think outside the box: Cryptic Command, Izzet Charm. You could totally play 8 pretty good ones. One of which can fuel your Treasure Cruises, if Cascaded into.
They'd be strong, but I doubt it'd be oppressive. They run into the same problem RUG Delver and that Shackles deck do: Siege Rhino, Restoration Angel, and Gavony Township are unanswerable game winning threats in G1. And I think you're looking at Shackles, Combust, Dismember as the best SB cards in G2&3. And I think their hate cards are better in: Choke and Abrupt Decay. But, we all know Pod is powerful.
Well I finished building this today. Already have RUG Twin and UWR Control built, so this only cost about $100 to finish.
I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm excited to do it.
EDIT: Ok here come some dumb questions.
- Say I drew one of my Valakuts before casting Scapeshift. I play Valakut as my 8th land. I cast Scapeshift, and sacrifice all lands except my Valakut. I go get 6 Mountains and the other Valakut. The Valakut in play, the Valakut I shifted for, and all the mountains 'see' each other at the same time and do 36 damage. Is this correct?
If anything enters the battlefield at the same time (or hits the stack at the same time) for whatever reason they do indeed see each other.
Some of the rulings on warp world sort of explain this, but yeah, that play you mentioned is totally possible.
Awesome thank you. This combo is a little more complex than Twin, but I love that it is more or less a 1 card combo. I also love how the sideboard can turn to a midrange deck if need be.
Another dumb question, which decks do we side Inferno Titan and friends in? I only have two Baloths laying around, so I am using Thrun as a placeholder.
Under the assumption you're not running Wurmcoil in your SB: I'd bringing Titan in for Pod, Jund/k, Delver, and Hatebears. And any deck with a lot of x/1's and x/2's that can be disruptive to your combo.
Under the assumption you do have Wurmcoil, I'd likely keep it in the SB against Jund/k and bringin WCE instead. This all depends on numbers ofc, i think you can afford bringing in 3-5 creatures vs. Jund/k, 2 of them being Baloth, and perhaps 1 of them being a Clique to pressure Lili.
Another dumb question, which decks do we side Inferno Titan and friends in? I only have two Baloths laying around, so I am using Thrun as a placeholder.
While we're on that topic, what are thoughts on having Thrun, the Last Troll in the sideboard as opposed to just being a placeholder? Is he useful enough to warrant a slot in the 75?
I think your MU vs. UWR Control is already good, and he's not where you'd like to be against the Mirror or Twin. And those are the only Counterspell decks I can think of where he'd be considered a "good" card. In most cases, against Counterspell decks, i'd prefer Clique or Boseiju in that slot.
Well I finished building this today. Already have RUG Twin and UWR Control built, so this only cost about $100 to finish.
I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm excited to do it.
EDIT: Ok here come some dumb questions.
- Say I drew one of my Valakuts before casting Scapeshift. I play Valakut as my 8th land. I cast Scapeshift, and sacrifice all lands except my Valakut. I go get 6 Mountains and the other Valakut. The Valakut in play, the Valakut I shifted for, and all the mountains 'see' each other at the same time and do 36 damage. Is this correct?
If anything enters the battlefield at the same time (or hits the stack at the same time) for whatever reason they do indeed see each other.
If a deck is bringing Chalice in against you they probably have a terrible MU, and you likely won G1. Then you bring in Smash to Smithereens and thank them for the free bolt and free roll T2.
2cc is pretty cheap. And Helix is better reach than any other 2cc card you could play. And better reach than the 1cc cards you could play excluding Bolt which is auto-include. It's a 2-for-1 vs. Burn. It's some much needed life-padding vs. UR Delver.
And the full-art promo looks amazing.
I don't see how anyone could exclude it in an UWR list.
You're going to have to dig a little deeper than "I'm not a fan"...
His SB cards likely include some number of Path, Stony Silence, Wear//Tear. Which is to say, he's likely utilizing the fact he has access to White mana in his deckbuilding. To assume otherwise is silly.
Firstly, i'd look at some cards that beat UR Delver by themselves:
Volcanic Fallout does a nice job. They have a hard time handling Tarmogoyf permanently. (Typically they need a Pyromancer/Vapor Snags to buy them time to kill the 'Goyf player in the air). And traditionally Zoo has a good MU against Tempo, so, I'd probably sleeve up my Zoo deck once again, with 4x Fallout in the SB. Zoo also has a decent MU against Tier 2 rogue decks that aren't combo, and you get to run Ooze and Pridemage MD as splash hate. I also think Domri helps keep up with Treasure Cruise, while also providing removal.
I also think Next Level Blue in Temur colors would be decent with Fallout from the SB. Think Urg control is the best Tier1.5 deck no one is talking about, atm, and has been for a while.
*'s are checked in all zones at all times. It is a property of the card.
Static abilities on the card itself (i.e. KotR getting +1/+1 per land in the GY) are not, unless otherwise stated...
I really think Domain is where we go with Zoo right now.
As for what it offers over other aggro? Unparalleled amount of reach. Tribal Flames + Snapcaster is 10 damage out of nowhere.
The best creatures in the format: The list runs Nacatl, Geist, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, and Rhino.
If you took a cross section of the highest performing creatures in the format you can play them all in Domain Zoo.
Given that we play 5 colors we get some of the best SB cards. You want to play Lingering Souls, Swan Song, Rest in Peace, Blood Moon, and Ancient Grudge all together? You want Wear//Tear and Abrupt Decay? You want Feed the Clan with plenty of enablers?
I think with Rhino and Goyf, we are more resistant to Non-Wrath sweepers than ever before. (We also have the option of Smiter, Wilt-Leaf Liege, and Voice, if we're particularly scared of Firespout)
I think Snapcaster paired with Dorks and Path gives us game vs. Twin. You also have Pridemage. It's going to take them awhile to be able to comfortably go off. And in that time you could have killed them or forced them to go for it.
I think Domain is well positioned vs. Abzan. They hate dork->geist. Lili can't answer it unless they aim a Decay or Dismember at the Dork, which is mighty good for you. And Domri can take over the matchup.
I've been having a great time testing vs. Abzan with the list i posted not too long ago.
I've been running this:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Siege Rhino
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Path to Exile
4 Tribal Flames
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Lingering Souls
2 Stony Silence
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Feed the Clan
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Path to Exile
1 Spellskite
2 Blood Moon
So I started out with 2 Kird Ape, 4 E1, 4 Wild Nacatl in the 1 drop slot. And I was running Smiter over Geist, and Bob over Snap (And Tribal Flames was other burn). That was pretty decent, but E1 and Kird Ape are weak as hell top decks. I hated drawing them late. So i started exploring Pat Cox's Tribal Flames. Again, I hated Loam Lion and I hated Swiftspear. Loam Lion was a terrible top deck, and Swiftspear never did more than 1 damage a turn, early or late, it was just really awkward to try and extract more damage out of her with Burn and Path.
So i went with Birds, Nobles, and the whole Domain package (Geist, Snapcaster). And let me tell you about how your W% skyrockets when you T2 Geist of St. Traft, or when you Snapcaster back Tribal Flames for 5 damage.
Also, Watery Grave is a revelation for Domain, imo. It casts Snapcaster, Siege Rhino, and Geist. And isn't making you do awkward things like Fetch for double white (Hallowed Fountain) to Snapcaster back white spells or cast Geist. It also flashes back L. Souls. =]
The 1-ofs in the SB are a work in progress, as is Blood Moon. If i scrub out at GP Memphis i'll likely be taking this to Side Events and I might be able to gain some more knowledge outside of playtesting. But, I will say this version is a lean mean Abzan eating machine in its current iteration.
Really, I think Rhino and Snapcaster do GCR's job better in a Domain list. Rhino Provides Trample, and Snapcaster flashbacks Path and Tribal Flames to clear the path. And Snapcaster is pretty decent in the Twin MU.
He actually may not have. Titan Bloom is usually thought of as a tier 2 at best deck.
I think it's odd he didn't know what the deck was capable of doing with its combo pieces, though.
Either way, in a high stress situation against a deck you didn't put in any reps against, i suppose it's understandable he made a mistake.
Going fast and the full supply of Path to Exiles in the 75.
Their hive mind draw should be slower than you, and Titan should get hit with a Path, so they can't do crazy lifegain shenanigans.
If it's a huge problem (say, in your local meta. Or if it becomes a break out deck and sees an adequate amount of meta share) Zo-zu the Punisher should crush it.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=79224
Peer is better for finding Cryptics and Scapeshifts.
Telling Time is better for fixing your mana and for finding Snapcasters.
I think Telling Time is better.
Grand Prix Minneapolis 2014 - ModernMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
60 cards
1 Breeding Pool
1 Cascade Bluffs
1 Flooded Grove
3 Forest
1 Halimar Depths
3 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Mountain
4 Steam Vents
4 Stomping Ground
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
24 lands
3 Snapcaster Mage
7 creatures
3 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
3 Izzet Charm
4 Remand
2 Repeal
4 Scapeshift
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Serum Visions
3 Telling Time
29 other spells
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Batterskull
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spellskite
2 Swan Song
2 Vendilion Clique
15 sideboard cards
This is where I would start.
Telling Time is a little better than Peer Through Depths in certain situations. Mainly: Early on to fix mana, to have more outs for a ramp spell(steve) if you could win with it on the spot (Scapeshift + land in hand with 5 lands on the board), and when you SB in permanents like Wurmcoil or Vendilion Clique.
If Zoo becomes popular Izzet Charms can be bolts. If Jund gets popular 1 or 2 Kodama's Reach could be decent.
The SB could use work. Firespout is probably better than Anger. And Wurmcoil could go in there. I also like a Combust or two.
TC can happen as early as T3, and is guaranteed. BBE into AV happens on T4, and you're not very likely to hit it, barring a lucky Serum Visions set up.
And most RUG Delver builds literally only splash Green for Goyf and nothing else, sometimes Nature's Claim out the board, sometimes Destructive Revelry. But, I'm not sure they need the Enchantment hate those give over using Grudge/Shattering Spree/Shatterstorm/Vandalblast. Reid Duke's RUG shackles build only runs a few Huntersmasters on top of Goyf. And I'm not sure Huntsmaster is particularly good with so many Pyroclasms and Forked Bolts running around
http://www.channelfireball.com/videos/channel-reiderrabbit-modern-rug-control/
But, I think I'm missing why the contents of a T2 deck is important to you.
As for the talk about BBE+AV decks missing out on being able to run Counterspells like their Shardless Agent Legacy Cousins.
Think outside the box: Cryptic Command, Izzet Charm. You could totally play 8 pretty good ones. One of which can fuel your Treasure Cruises, if Cascaded into.
They'd be strong, but I doubt it'd be oppressive. They run into the same problem RUG Delver and that Shackles deck do: Siege Rhino, Restoration Angel, and Gavony Township are unanswerable game winning threats in G1. And I think you're looking at Shackles, Combust, Dismember as the best SB cards in G2&3. And I think their hate cards are better in: Choke and Abrupt Decay. But, we all know Pod is powerful.
Under the assumption you're not running Wurmcoil in your SB: I'd bringing Titan in for Pod, Jund/k, Delver, and Hatebears. And any deck with a lot of x/1's and x/2's that can be disruptive to your combo.
Under the assumption you do have Wurmcoil, I'd likely keep it in the SB against Jund/k and bringin WCE instead. This all depends on numbers ofc, i think you can afford bringing in 3-5 creatures vs. Jund/k, 2 of them being Baloth, and perhaps 1 of them being a Clique to pressure Lili.
I think your MU vs. UWR Control is already good, and he's not where you'd like to be against the Mirror or Twin. And those are the only Counterspell decks I can think of where he'd be considered a "good" card. In most cases, against Counterspell decks, i'd prefer Clique or Boseiju in that slot.
If anything enters the battlefield at the same time (or hits the stack at the same time) for whatever reason they do indeed see each other.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=190187
Some of the rulings on warp world sort of explain this, but yeah, that play you mentioned is totally possible.
If a deck is bringing Chalice in against you they probably have a terrible MU, and you likely won G1. Then you bring in Smash to Smithereens and thank them for the free bolt and free roll T2.
And the full-art promo looks amazing.
I don't see how anyone could exclude it in an UWR list.
You're going to have to dig a little deeper than "I'm not a fan"...
His SB cards likely include some number of Path, Stony Silence, Wear//Tear. Which is to say, he's likely utilizing the fact he has access to White mana in his deckbuilding. To assume otherwise is silly.
Volcanic Fallout does a nice job. They have a hard time handling Tarmogoyf permanently. (Typically they need a Pyromancer/Vapor Snags to buy them time to kill the 'Goyf player in the air). And traditionally Zoo has a good MU against Tempo, so, I'd probably sleeve up my Zoo deck once again, with 4x Fallout in the SB. Zoo also has a decent MU against Tier 2 rogue decks that aren't combo, and you get to run Ooze and Pridemage MD as splash hate. I also think Domri helps keep up with Treasure Cruise, while also providing removal.
I also think Next Level Blue in Temur colors would be decent with Fallout from the SB. Think Urg control is the best Tier1.5 deck no one is talking about, atm, and has been for a while.