but bloodgift demon doesn't have a toughness less than 5...
For the sake of setting the record straight in this thread, I'd just like to point out that Bloodgift Demon has a p/t of 5/4, and Consecrated Sphinxis 4/6.
Also I think the real subject for debate should be whether his mild inferiority to Sphinx cancels out the benefit of getting him a turn earlier. Speed is everything in this meta right now, and I've been doing a lot of thinking about the worth of some of my creatures vs their place in the mana curve. Just something to think about.
I'm utterly confused why people don't see him as a good control card. I've been reading posts like this all over the forums and frankly I'm just confused as all hell.
-On color? Check. Fairly easy castability with the diverse manabase? Check.
-Protects itself? Check.
-Fogs a decent amount of damage? Check.
-Helps establish board presence/advantage every turn without draining resources? Check.
-Destroys things? Check. Valuable things? Check. Takes them? Check.
My 4 drop slot in SF is admittedly weak (Day or just play a 3 drop I guess) so it would be nice to have something in there to fill the gap. He'll be replacing my 1 Gideon in the deck, and if he does well, I'll bump him to 2 to go along with the 2 Lilianas I've got. The two seem unstoppable if they hit at the same time. You can continue to create a 2 creature gap between you and your opponent each turn. And if they have no creatures? Just start +1'ing with Liliana and never stop. Who cares if you have cards in your hand? They have none and you have an army of tokens. This thing is and will be legit. What a godsend.
So this has been a question on my mind for quite some time now: why does it seem like the majority of magic players completely lack a sense of humor? Aside from the fact that a lot of this forum is not in the habit of appreciating a joke (no offense meant, just an observation) I typically encounter a lot of humorless/overly serious players in real life. It also seems like Magic players have the hardest time talking about the game to non-players in a way that makes it seems cool or interesting, which only draws less people to the game and makes us look worse. Honestly, if Pokemon and YuGiOh players are better at this, we have a problem.
So I say we use this thread to perhaps show otherwise, or agree or something. Share stories of more lighthearted magic stuff, or tell stories of times you were astounded of the overly-serious/humorless nature of certain opponents, or just discuss this bizarre phenomena in general. I'll start with a couple stories:
- I once encountered a player who was attempting to rush me during a very difficult game (shards draft where we both have several creatures on the table and I was choosing my blocks) and while thinking he blurted out something to the effect of, "You know technically you're only allowed thirty seconds time to make this decision any longer and blah blah blah..." I was pretty stunned by that.
- I saw a player at FNM freak out at my friend simply because the guy got mana screwed and blamed my friend for playing Valakut ramp or something like that.
- There have been multiple occasions where I have attempted to make jokes or start conversation about the game-state only to be greeted by blank stares or being flat out ignored. Talk about a tough crowd.
More lighthearted moments:
- My friends and I typically hold drunken draft tournaments where you're forced to slam 3-4 beers before the draft is finished-then drink more while playing. This typically results in numerous misplays after the first game or two.
- The owner's son at my FNM shop is an incredibly chivalrous player who lets the opponent go first always, lets them take back mistakes/grandpa play and does a lot of other small things to kind of help you win. Despite this, he's always playing competitive decks and finishes in fairly high places despite his behavior. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Dead is not as dead as it once was. In fact, making creatures dead fuels that very same Lavamancer you mentioned. There are several grave interactions in the standard meta - as many if not more than unsummon abilities.
I take your point on mana dorks. Though if activated abilities are that big an issue, you can upgrade to Arrest. I don't think it's worth the extra 1, but the reason for that is because there aren't that many scary activated abilities. If there are scary activated abilities in your meta, Arrest becomes better than either of these two.
True, theres a lot of graveyard interaction in the current meta, but very little that benefit from the kind of creatures you would Dead Weight. Yes Dead Weight fuels lavamancer, but not if you're killing lavamancer. It fuels him if you tag a Stromkirk Noble, but let's be straight about who we would rather leave on table- i'd take the lavamancer's 2 damage over an increasingly powerful evasive threat any day.
And I fail to see the advantage of Arrest over Dead Weight except that it gets rid of bigger creatures, which is moot because we have allkindsofotherremoval for that. What makes Dead Weight nice is it gives you an obvious choice of removal for the early game creatures that are on the cusp of worth destroying but not necessary. It's an easy way to eliminate pains basically, and if I'm going to be doing that, I don't want to pay more than one mana to do so.
I could see the argument for Wring Flesh in its place though, but I suppose it's a personal call at that point.
I run 2 in my build and I'll say that it works great for me. It's a decent removal spell that works early and is easy to justify using on smaller creatures like Goblin Fireslinger, Birds of Paradise, and Grim Lavamancer, all of which are annoying when left unchecked. I'd rather use that then Pacifism because a pacified creature can be Unsummoned, still use abilities, and ultimately is still on the field to find a way to screw you over, while a dead creature is just that-dead.
It's kinda funny how it seems like half the people in this thread completely get Liliana and the other half are seriously underrating her, but mostly with the whole "I must not get how to use her" tag attached to their post. If you even consider chalking your opinion of this card up to your inability to play it, you're probably incorrect in assuming she is bad.
As to answer when's a good time to play her? Simple: whenever your opponent has one creature on the field. Drop her and use her -2 and you're set. At this point they'll either a) spend mana replacing the creature, letting you untap and +1 her with mana to defend her, then make them lose their other creature, b)Burn her away, which means you paid 3 mana to edict the opponent AND prevent damage to your face which is pretty good if you ask me, c)Ring her, which wastes a ring on her instead of on your finishers or on one of YOUR rings you need to stay stuck, or d) they do nothing, and you just relentlessly +1 until you have a kill spell a turn for the next 3-4 turns.
er +1 ability is tricky, but you have to learn how to make the optimal plays with it:
-Ditch Flashback cards, ESPECIALLY unburial rites, as it only gets cheaper, and possibly easier to play depending on the colors you have on the field at the time
-Ditch lands once you get to about 6 or 7
-If nothing else, ditch cards that are good but not for the situation eg counterpsells if you're past the point of holding up mana, cards you're not on color for, finishers if you're having trouble getting to 6 mana etc. Don't lose the chance to deprive your opponent of resources just because you think you MIGHT end up getting to use it later. If it's not relevant now and you're in a situation where you need to establish control of the game, ditch it. Often ripping cards out their hands while building towards her ultimate screws the opponent out of cards AND puts them in panic mode, and they'll end up spending more resources to try and kill her, and you can take out a good 3 or 4 creatures just with her, all while building your mana, drawing more defense, and dropping finishers.
If that's what you want delver to do then I highly suggest Spellskite instead as it also locks out AD and KWR.
But Spellskite can't also serve as a threat while waiting for backup. I've had games where after getting sweeped of a finisher or two I have been able to seal the game by dropping that and having it flip. It's relevant at almost any point in time against most decks (granted there are some that it doesn't work at all against, but that's when you side it out anyway).
I personally don't like Batterskull but i could see its legitimacy in that it's a little easier to cast with counter backup than Wurmcoil. The irony of the card is that between subsequent attaches, returnings and recastings it actually ends up being more mana intensive than a Wurmcoil you just plop down once and turn sideways forever. I definitely would MB it if you're going to run it though-no real point in having it in the SB as it's not a fringe card for specific situation.
The major difference between Delver and Phantasmal Bear is that Delver has the potential to become a serious problem if left unchecked. As far as utility and consistency goes, the bear is probably a little better (except being able to be knocked off by any targeting effect), but the fact is most people (from what i've observed in testing anyway) aren't willing to take the risk of delver getting to that point, and will often waste precious removal or burn on it. That's the real purpose I want Delver to serve-either soak up their resources or make them pay for it when they don't.
by the time you cast Sun Titan it will have a reasonable target (image, lily, caster, oring/pacifism, splicer, etc.)
The point everyone is trying to make here though is that your stating speculation like it's fact. There is absolutely no guarantee you'll always be able to cast Sun Titan into something from your GY and it's even less likely it will be relevant to the situation. You can sit and say that if this is the scenario than the deck's controller is bad at magic or was dealt a really unlucky hand all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that this scenario does happen, while on the other hand, you never get screwed out of a Grave Titan trigger. It 100% of the time comes down with two bodies and almost invariably turns the game around, especially against aggro. It is at best a finisher and at absolute worst some fantastic defense, while sun titan at worst is a vanilla 6/6 that can block one creature at a time.
If you want to play Sun Titan and all it's your choice, and I'm not saying it's a worse one. I'm just making sure you have a grip on the reality of the situation that Grave Titan is simply more reliable (though not necessarily superior vs. bringing back a ring or a liliana, but again these are conditional cases) for defense.
I've heard this sentiment echoed a few times and it's a fair point. So my question at this juncture would be how much is an adequate amount to make Delver viable? My build has 18 instants and sorceries MB and usually even more post-board, meaning he has about a 1/3 chance of flipping every turn. Coupled with how long it tends to survive against most decks (monored being the obvious exception), this usually doesn't end up being a problem.
I would also like to bring up the point again that a decent chunk of Delver;s usefulness is the mind game that he may flip at any moment, which is a legitimate threat to most decks, so they'll dispose of him early, wasting removal on a 1/1 instead of your finishers, or wasting burn on him instead of your life points. He serves the same alt purpose as a planeswalker in that he soaks up a little bit of damage and resources, and in a deck based heavily on CA and attrition this can be huge.
But yeah back to my original question. More instants and sorceries would indeed increase the chances of Delver flipping, but I am afraid that too many would make the deck centric around Delver, which I honestly believe is a bad idea in general. I like him more as a fringe distraction like Blade Splicer is in some people's variations, but with the obvious difference of being an annoyance straight out from turn 1 as opposed to being something you may have to drop t3 in place of liliana, a ring, an FA or a dissipate. Its advantage is it's in a spot where its not competing for anything else really.
I'm a little surprised I'm not seeing more discussion on Delver of Secrets' inclusion in Solar Flare. There's a lot of threads on how to combat aggro without tilting so far against it that you lose your control game-well Delver is decent against both. Against rush decks its at least a blocker, trader, or when it transforms, a serious problem. Against midrange it's chip damage until it flips and then can contend with their midrange stuff. Against control it's a nightmare that forces them to waste removal on a one-drop so your finishers can live a little longer. Sticking and flipping two delvers has almost invariably been the end of the game for my opponents.
Basically what I have learned in this meta from a lot of testing is that midrange is somewhat weak right now, and most games are really determined by what you drop turns 1,2,3 and 6+. If you don't have an early game and a late game plan, you're sunk. Since Solar Flare only gets more and more brutal as a match drags on, the thing which is the biggest concern to us is our early game strategy, and I'm here to tell you Delver is it.
I'm currently running three in my build and have been having a lot of success with it. I will post my entire decklist for reference if asked, but would rather not right now for fear of the discussion immediately dropping into my card choices. I want to keep this about Delver for right now. So please, discuss.
But Flare is definitely weaker against decks like Counterburn and RDW. I'm really not sure about the UW Blade matchup; it's probably in UB's favor.
I would think Flare would be better against aggro and rush decks, especially considering
more efficient sweeper
is a very true statement, not to mention if its really giving you a headache, you can always SB Timely Reinforcements to deal with RDW at least, though it's not bad against a lot of other aggro as well.
The versatility thing really is correct. Flare can unbury, counter, draw, spot remove, sweep, and play big creatures, almost all of which are equivocal to the level of efficiency UB does them, if not superior. If I really had to peg a difference, UB is (and has always been) the most extreme of the control end in standard, while flare (though not much) is more tap out (Liliana, sweep, Titan, unburial, etc.) so play what you like based on that.
But every time they tap out its usually for something that's damn near unanswerable like a sphinx or a grave titan. The problem is most of the time they give you a window to cast one thing after dropping their threat which they promptly O-Ring on their next turn. This happens to me so much it's mind boggling. I would really like to find a way to at least stand a chance against this deck game 1 other than "play emissaries and pray they stick. That argument is null and void past turn 5 for them because as soon as they drop a threat/unbury a threat/remove your guy with counter mana up its put you right back to square one, they just have less life than before. The problem is that the right set of offensive moves can win you the game, but for them any ONE of their offensive moves pretty much wins it for them as well.
I'm curious as to what other Bant Players' strategies are against control decks (U/B draw=go, solar flare and the like) are, since this seems to be my only supremely weak match up. It usually ultimately comes down to not being able to deal with a timely Sun Titan getting dropped on my head. Thrun and the other legendary problem creatures usually get dispatched by clone and liliana effects, and as nice having access to Negate is, it still doesnt stop Sun Titan until the damage is done. Dissipate I suppose is an answer, but I don't want to be constantly holding up that much mana, especially if they just counter it back since control decks always seem to have an abundance of mana at their disposal (which is why Mana Leak is out as well). So yeah SB/MB options? I run a pretty standard Bant Pod so suggest away.
For the sake of setting the record straight in this thread, I'd just like to point out that Bloodgift Demon has a p/t of 5/4, and Consecrated Sphinxis 4/6.
Also I think the real subject for debate should be whether his mild inferiority to Sphinx cancels out the benefit of getting him a turn earlier. Speed is everything in this meta right now, and I've been doing a lot of thinking about the worth of some of my creatures vs their place in the mana curve. Just something to think about.
-On color? Check. Fairly easy castability with the diverse manabase? Check.
-Protects itself? Check.
-Fogs a decent amount of damage? Check.
-Helps establish board presence/advantage every turn without draining resources? Check.
-Destroys things? Check. Valuable things? Check. Takes them? Check.
My 4 drop slot in SF is admittedly weak (Day or just play a 3 drop I guess) so it would be nice to have something in there to fill the gap. He'll be replacing my 1 Gideon in the deck, and if he does well, I'll bump him to 2 to go along with the 2 Lilianas I've got. The two seem unstoppable if they hit at the same time. You can continue to create a 2 creature gap between you and your opponent each turn. And if they have no creatures? Just start +1'ing with Liliana and never stop. Who cares if you have cards in your hand? They have none and you have an army of tokens. This thing is and will be legit. What a godsend.
So I say we use this thread to perhaps show otherwise, or agree or something. Share stories of more lighthearted magic stuff, or tell stories of times you were astounded of the overly-serious/humorless nature of certain opponents, or just discuss this bizarre phenomena in general. I'll start with a couple stories:
- I once encountered a player who was attempting to rush me during a very difficult game (shards draft where we both have several creatures on the table and I was choosing my blocks) and while thinking he blurted out something to the effect of, "You know technically you're only allowed thirty seconds time to make this decision any longer and blah blah blah..." I was pretty stunned by that.
- I saw a player at FNM freak out at my friend simply because the guy got mana screwed and blamed my friend for playing Valakut ramp or something like that.
- There have been multiple occasions where I have attempted to make jokes or start conversation about the game-state only to be greeted by blank stares or being flat out ignored. Talk about a tough crowd.
More lighthearted moments:
- My friends and I typically hold drunken draft tournaments where you're forced to slam 3-4 beers before the draft is finished-then drink more while playing. This typically results in numerous misplays after the first game or two.
- The owner's son at my FNM shop is an incredibly chivalrous player who lets the opponent go first always, lets them take back mistakes/grandpa play and does a lot of other small things to kind of help you win. Despite this, he's always playing competitive decks and finishes in fairly high places despite his behavior. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Discuss.
True, theres a lot of graveyard interaction in the current meta, but very little that benefit from the kind of creatures you would Dead Weight. Yes Dead Weight fuels lavamancer, but not if you're killing lavamancer. It fuels him if you tag a Stromkirk Noble, but let's be straight about who we would rather leave on table- i'd take the lavamancer's 2 damage over an increasingly powerful evasive threat any day.
And I fail to see the advantage of Arrest over Dead Weight except that it gets rid of bigger creatures, which is moot because we have all kinds of other removal for that. What makes Dead Weight nice is it gives you an obvious choice of removal for the early game creatures that are on the cusp of worth destroying but not necessary. It's an easy way to eliminate pains basically, and if I'm going to be doing that, I don't want to pay more than one mana to do so.
I could see the argument for Wring Flesh in its place though, but I suppose it's a personal call at that point.
As to answer when's a good time to play her? Simple: whenever your opponent has one creature on the field. Drop her and use her -2 and you're set. At this point they'll either a) spend mana replacing the creature, letting you untap and +1 her with mana to defend her, then make them lose their other creature, b)Burn her away, which means you paid 3 mana to edict the opponent AND prevent damage to your face which is pretty good if you ask me, c)Ring her, which wastes a ring on her instead of on your finishers or on one of YOUR rings you need to stay stuck, or d) they do nothing, and you just relentlessly +1 until you have a kill spell a turn for the next 3-4 turns.
er +1 ability is tricky, but you have to learn how to make the optimal plays with it:
-Ditch Flashback cards, ESPECIALLY unburial rites, as it only gets cheaper, and possibly easier to play depending on the colors you have on the field at the time
-Ditch lands once you get to about 6 or 7
-If nothing else, ditch cards that are good but not for the situation eg counterpsells if you're past the point of holding up mana, cards you're not on color for, finishers if you're having trouble getting to 6 mana etc. Don't lose the chance to deprive your opponent of resources just because you think you MIGHT end up getting to use it later. If it's not relevant now and you're in a situation where you need to establish control of the game, ditch it. Often ripping cards out their hands while building towards her ultimate screws the opponent out of cards AND puts them in panic mode, and they'll end up spending more resources to try and kill her, and you can take out a good 3 or 4 creatures just with her, all while building your mana, drawing more defense, and dropping finishers.
But Spellskite can't also serve as a threat while waiting for backup. I've had games where after getting sweeped of a finisher or two I have been able to seal the game by dropping that and having it flip. It's relevant at almost any point in time against most decks (granted there are some that it doesn't work at all against, but that's when you side it out anyway).
The point everyone is trying to make here though is that your stating speculation like it's fact. There is absolutely no guarantee you'll always be able to cast Sun Titan into something from your GY and it's even less likely it will be relevant to the situation. You can sit and say that if this is the scenario than the deck's controller is bad at magic or was dealt a really unlucky hand all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that this scenario does happen, while on the other hand, you never get screwed out of a Grave Titan trigger. It 100% of the time comes down with two bodies and almost invariably turns the game around, especially against aggro. It is at best a finisher and at absolute worst some fantastic defense, while sun titan at worst is a vanilla 6/6 that can block one creature at a time.
If you want to play Sun Titan and all it's your choice, and I'm not saying it's a worse one. I'm just making sure you have a grip on the reality of the situation that Grave Titan is simply more reliable (though not necessarily superior vs. bringing back a ring or a liliana, but again these are conditional cases) for defense.
I would also like to bring up the point again that a decent chunk of Delver;s usefulness is the mind game that he may flip at any moment, which is a legitimate threat to most decks, so they'll dispose of him early, wasting removal on a 1/1 instead of your finishers, or wasting burn on him instead of your life points. He serves the same alt purpose as a planeswalker in that he soaks up a little bit of damage and resources, and in a deck based heavily on CA and attrition this can be huge.
But yeah back to my original question. More instants and sorceries would indeed increase the chances of Delver flipping, but I am afraid that too many would make the deck centric around Delver, which I honestly believe is a bad idea in general. I like him more as a fringe distraction like Blade Splicer is in some people's variations, but with the obvious difference of being an annoyance straight out from turn 1 as opposed to being something you may have to drop t3 in place of liliana, a ring, an FA or a dissipate. Its advantage is it's in a spot where its not competing for anything else really.
Basically what I have learned in this meta from a lot of testing is that midrange is somewhat weak right now, and most games are really determined by what you drop turns 1,2,3 and 6+. If you don't have an early game and a late game plan, you're sunk. Since Solar Flare only gets more and more brutal as a match drags on, the thing which is the biggest concern to us is our early game strategy, and I'm here to tell you Delver is it.
I'm currently running three in my build and have been having a lot of success with it. I will post my entire decklist for reference if asked, but would rather not right now for fear of the discussion immediately dropping into my card choices. I want to keep this about Delver for right now. So please, discuss.
I would think Flare would be better against aggro and rush decks, especially considering
is a very true statement, not to mention if its really giving you a headache, you can always SB Timely Reinforcements to deal with RDW at least, though it's not bad against a lot of other aggro as well.
The versatility thing really is correct. Flare can unbury, counter, draw, spot remove, sweep, and play big creatures, almost all of which are equivocal to the level of efficiency UB does them, if not superior. If I really had to peg a difference, UB is (and has always been) the most extreme of the control end in standard, while flare (though not much) is more tap out (Liliana, sweep, Titan, unburial, etc.) so play what you like based on that.