I've definitely played Jund, and against it, and I'm not saying it isn't an amazing deck. But I also played Faeries, and it is no where near the same in terms of power and control of the game. Maybe that is just my play style, or I'm playing the deck wrong.
Is it amazing? Absolutely. But I think it is overrated by quite a bit. Although that is my 2 cents.
This is basically a large work in progress, and I'm looking for some suggestions, whether they be combos I didn't include/know about, or if you feel some of my choices are sub-par. Keep in mind that this is a rough, working list, designed for multiplayer.
The List
00 Darigaaz, the Igniter
///Creatures
01 Acidic Slime
02 Akroma, Angel of Fury
03 Argothian Elder
04 Avatar of Woe
05 Bloodghast
06 Bogardan Hellkite
07 Broodmate Dragon
08 Anger
09 Coalhauler Swine
10 Eternal Witness
11 Genesis
12 Grave Titan
13 Inferno Titan
14 Mycoloth
15 Myojin of Life’s Web
16 Nantuko Husk
17 Nether Traitor
18 Primeval Titan
19 Ryusei, the Falling Star
20 Sadistic Hypnotist
21 Sakura-Tribe Elder
22 Sekki, Seasons' Guide
23 Yavimaya Elder
///Enchantments
24 Blessing of Leeches
25 Earthcraft
26 Fires of Yavimaya
27 Grave Pact
28 Mana Echoes
29 Pandemonium
30 Perilous Forays
31 Seismic Assault
32 Squirrel Nest
33 Survival of the Fittest
34 Wild Pair
35 Crucible of Worlds
36 Genesis Chamber
37 Lightning Greaves
38 Myr Matrix
39 Pariah’s Shield
40 Phyrexian Altar
41 Sensei’s Divining Top
42 Skull Clamp
43 Sol Ring
///Planeswalkers
44 Garruk, Wildspeaker
45 Liliana Vess
///Sorceries
46 Beseech the Queen
47 Cultivate
48 Damnation
49 Demonic Collusion
50 Demonic Tutor
51 Farseek
52 Ill-Gotten Gains
53 Life From the Loam
54 Praetor’s Counsel
55 Primal Command
56 Profane Command
57 Rampant Growth
58 Reanimate
59 Yawgmoth’s Will
///Instants
60 Comet Storm
61 Vampiric Tutor
62 Worldly Tutor
///Lands
63 Snow-Covered Forest
64 Snow-Covered Forest
65 Snow-Covered Forest
66 Snow-Covered Mountain
67 Snow-Covered Mountain
68 Snow-Covered Mountain
69 Snow-Covered Swamp
70 Snow-Covered Swamp
71 Snow-Covered Swamp
72 Badlands
73 Bayou
74 Blackcleave Cliffs
75 Blood Crypt
76 Bloodstained Mire
77 Copperline Gorge
78 Dragonskull Summit
79 Fire-lit Thicket
80 Gaea’s Cradle
81 Graven Cairns
82 Karplusan Forest
83 Llanowar Wastes
84 Maze of Ith
85 Miren, the Moaning Well
86 Overgrown Tomb
87 Rootbound Crag
88 Savage Lands
89 Shivan Gorge
90 Stomping Grounds
91 Strip Mine
92 Sulfurous Springs
93 Taiga
94 Twilight Mire
95 Verdant Catacombs
96 Vesuva
97 Volrath’s Stronghold
98 Wooded Foothills
99 Yavimaya Hollow
Combos
Infinite Damage:
-Equip Coalhauler Swine with Pariah's Shield and enchant it with Blessing of Leeches, then somehow ping yourself or it, creating an infinite loop of targeting the swine and regenerating it.
Pandemonium + Sekki, Seasons' Guide: With Pandemonium out, cast Sekki and let the Pandemonium triggers target Sekki. The damage is prevented, making spirit tokens, who trigger pandemonium targeting an opponent. Sac the spirits to return Sekki, rinse and repeat.
Infinite Mana/Creatures: Activate Myr Matrix with Mana Echoes out. The effect is cumulative, so once you get to 5 echo triggers, the loop feeds itself. This requires 15 mana to go infinite from scratch, without producing a few myr beforehand. With haste via Fires of Yavimaya or a binned Anger, this can be an insta-win.
Earthcraft+Squirrel Nest =Infinite Squirrels
Argothian Elder + Maze of Ith + Any land: Attack with the elder, then untap it with Maze of Ith. Tap elder to untap maze and another land. Since Elder is attacking, you can untap it with maze again and loop it, generating mana with the other land. This can get pretty nutty with Gaea's Cradle, or Shivan Gorge
There are several other combos, such as Perilous Forays + Bloodghast and such, but you guys get the idea; the deck is full of little combos and synergies.
Wishlist and Concerns
I need more ways to tutor, but am constrained for spots. I feel like between Survival of the Fittest and other card/creature tutors I should be able to get certain combo pieces, but only testing will tell
I want to fit in Aluren and Cloudstone Curio, but right now I am not really abusing enough CIP triggers with 3 CMC creatures to justify it. If the list changed significantly to accomodate it, I'd like to work it in.
I'm not sure about Wild Pair. This is something I'll have to work out which are the best pairs and which creatures have none, and adjust accordingly.
Final questions: More ramp? less land? Do you think the list needs more creatures, and not just of the combo variety? You guys tell me.
Thanks in advance for looking through my list. I'm open to any and all suggestions, as building an EDH deck from scratch is much easier with some collaboration.
The only reason I went with White is because of the fliers in the form of Kemba's Skyguard, and the removal/evasion spells in Fulgent Distraction and Dispense Justice, not to mention Tempered Steel. Like I said in my original post, I was really torn on not playing my black pool. The removal was exceptional, but I would have rather seen something like Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, or a heaver infect pool.
But I completely agree on needing to play the replica. There really wasn't a reason not to.
Yeah, in retrospect I know that I should have fit this guy in there, but at the time I was sitting on 41 cards and 15 lands, which was just enough for the deck to work. I overestimated the required splash, where the green would have just fueled colorless spells anyway, and the replica isn't bad without the activation.
You're lucky I know you and I know you're kidding. Oh, and how well did you do in the Sealed yesterday?
1x Golem's Heart
2x Darksteel Axe
1x Rusted Relic
1x Necrogen Censer
1x Livewire Lash
1x Venser's Journal
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Trigon of Corruption
1x Sylvok Lifestaff
1x Horizon Spellbomb
1x Culling Dais
1x Heavy Arbalest
1x Origin Spellbomb
1x Panic Spellbomb
ARTIFACT DUDES
1x Ichorclaw Myr
1x Myr Galvanizer
1x Accorder's Shield
1x Snapsail Glider
1x Gold Myr
1x Perilous Myr
2x Chrome Steed
1x Neurok Replica
1x Moriok Replica
2x Sylvok Replica
2x Vector Asp
1x Soliton
1x Lumengrid Drake
1x Disperse
1x Stoic Rebuttal
1x Thrummingbird
1x Steady Progress
1x Volition Reins
1x Bonds of Quicksilver
1x Vault Skyward
RED
1x Turn to Slag
1x Ogre Geargrabber
2x Flameborn Hellion
1x Arc Trail
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Assault Strobe
1x Goblin Gavaleer
1x Kuldotha Rebirth
1x Scoria Elemental
1x Melt Terrain
1x Vulshok Heartstoker
WHITE
1x Leonin Arbiter
1x Tempered Steel
1x Dispense Justice
2x Kemba's Skyguard
1x Fulgent Distraction
1x Salvage Scout
1x Soul Parry
1x Whitesun's Package
1x Vigil for the Lost
1x Glimmerpoint Stag
1x Genesis Wave
1x Wing Puncture
1x Copperhorn Scout
1x Cystbearer
1x Alpha Tyrranax
2x Ezuri's Archer
BLACK
2x Relic Putrescence
1x Moriok Reaver
1x Painsmith
2x Dross Hopper
1x Grasp of Darkness
1x Skinrender
1x Bleak Coven Vampires
1x Instill Infection
1x Flash Allergy
1x Blistergrub
1x Plague Stinger
1x Exsanguinate
LAND
1x Copperline Gorge
Initial Thoughts on colors:
As I was listening to people talk while building decks, I heard so much discussion of control decks, winning through poison counters and proliferate. We had a guy saying he was going to win the tournament with Grindclock for crying out loud. I predicted a lot of slow decks with bombs, so i decided I wanted to be the beatdown, and force wins before they got their things online. So with that, some notes on color choices:
White: Some good pieces of "removal", tap down effects, and the wonderful Tempered Steel. I just so happened to have the support for it, but who doesn't in this limited? Kemba's Skyguard is a good flyer and life buffer. Color choice 1 for my deck.
Blue: Didn't seem too powerful. Volition Reins is good, but a little slow. The few Proliferate spells that I got weren't too powerful with limited effects for what I was trying to accomplish.
Black: I had a hard time not playing Black in this pool. There were a couple of good removals, namely Skinrender, but it seemed to lack punch
Red: Basically, I drew double Galvanic Blast. I also had several good creatures, some combat trick cards, and some effeciency. Color choice 2.
Green: The smallest pool I received. Basically, the only thing of note I saw was the double Sylvok Replica, and I almost splashed for them, but just couldn't Justify it.
And here is my RW sealed deck.
7x Mountain
8x Plains
CREATURES
1x Leonin Arbiter
2x Kemba's Skyguard
1x Goblin Gavaleer
1x Ogre Geargrabber
1x Flameborn Hellion
1x Ichorclaw Myr
1x Myr Galvanizer
1x Snapsail Glider
1x Gold Myr
1x Perilous Myr
2x Chrome Steed
1x Golem's Heart
2x Darksteel Axe
1x Rusted Relic
1x Accorder's Shield
SPELLS
1x Turn to Slag
1x Assault Strobe
2x Galvanic Blast
1x Arc Trail
1x Tempered Steel
1x Fulgent Distraction
1x Dispense Justice
With my pool being relatively weak on raw power cards, I was a little worried about simply being outclassed in the late game. I just tried to win as fast as possible. That was exactly what happened, as I took this like to 4-1-1 drawing into top 8, and lost in that top 8 match to exactly what i feared: Better bomby cards and my opponent surviving my initial onslaught.
So tell me what you guys think, and what you would of done differently.
Fair enough, yeah I'm sure I did a shoddy job of explaining it to begin with. The 5:00 on my clock (and insomnia) are showing :p.
It was a difficult situation mostly because we all couldn't fathom how neither players knew how many of one thing either had on the battlefield, and weren't really much help in reconstructing the game state. All in all it was pretty loose playing, but there were some people crying for blood and calling for a game loss and I thought it odd (and wrong), so I wanted to investigate further.
Edit:
Yeah I pretty much knew that for sure, but there were a couple of people that were adamant that it was incorrect representation. I always assumed that as placing incorrect counters on things, or lying about things like life totals or something, but not how many permanents were in play, and certainly not grounds for a game loss.
In a U/W control mirror match, Player A controlled an Elspeth and had started churning out 1/1 tokens. Round 1 and 2 had gone on for the better part of an hour in the semifinals, and game 3 had long since been underway. He eventually used Elspeth's ultimate ability making all creatures indestructible. He then realized that there were 2 tokens, previously made by Elspeth, out of the gameplay zone and off of his play mat, but had not been sent to the graveyard previously in the game. They hadn't made an impact on the gamestate, other than the fact they were supposed to be in play; he had simply accidentally shoved them off his mat. There was no possible way to rewind.
He tried to move the tokens he (and is opponent) had forgotten about back onto the battlefield and deem them indestructible. A ruling argument ensued, which eventually culminated in a Judge being called.
The question is what type of ruling happens concerning the tokens, and what the penalties for it would be. Basically came down to 2 different opinions
1) The tokens being moved from the battlefield, out of play, and back again is misrepresenting the game state, and Player A receives a game loss.
2) The tokens being moved from the battlefield, out of play, and back again results in the tokens being removed from play, which is unfortunate for Player A, but the game continues from there, with both players being suggested to pay closer attention to the game state. Both players are competent, frequent top tables, and should not have let a mistake like this slip.
The Judge in-store ruled it in favor of #2, but there was some debate over it for the rest of the match.
Which is correct, and more importantly, if this would not be misrepresenting the game state, what makes it not? Would it fall under some sort of ruling on intention?
If I could get the exact rules it would be very helpful as well.
Thanks in advace!
Clearly you underestimate how good drawing cards is.
The deck, while fairly aggressive, isn't meant to "muscle out" everything as fast as possible. It is very much a mid-range deck, but you want to bury them in card advantage while maintaining consistency. Cascade is not the only means of generating CA.
Also it should be noted that this deck isn't a deck I threw together as a neat idea. It's was a very competitive deck at the close of lorwyn season. It is designed to take on Faeries and 5CC by blanking their counters and outracing them in card advantage, not necessarily creature beats.
Also, with Sygg, I ran a deck very similar during lorwyn block and I don't think I cascaded into it with one on board once. It is highly unlikely, and even then, you don't have to cascade it. It is definitely more unlikely than cascading into a pulse with no target, or a Blightning with no cards in your opponent's hand, etc.
2x Cascade Bluffs
1x Exotic Orchard
2x Flooded Grove
1x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Reflecting Pool
1x Swamp
3x Twilight Mire
3x Vivid Crag
4x Vivid Gove
4x Vivid Marsh
4x Anathemancer
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Boggart Ram-Gang
4x Putrid Leech
3x Sygg, River Cutthroat
/Spells
2x Bituminous Blast
1x Cruel Ultimatum
4x Cryptic Command
2x Jund Charm
4x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Volcanic Fallout
1x Bituminous Blast
4x Celestial Purge
4x Kitchen Finks
2x Pithing Needle
2x Snakeform
2x Thought Hemorrhage
Article found here.
Now, obviously this was built with the lorwyn season meta in mind. Anathemancer main for the 5-color menace etc. If this were to be played in extended, this list would most likely see play as is come rotation until October, but until then there are notable cards which should see play. Some I can think of:
Tarmogoyf should be an obvious inclusion, and easily takes the Anathemancer slot until a largely-nonbasic manabase begins to wreak havoc.
Gemstone Mine: Is a decent replacement for some number of vivid lands, at least on paper, as it function in the same way, doesn't CIPT, and fuels Reflecting Pool nicely..
Some things I question about the list:
Does Kitchen Finks really need to be in the side? When is finks a bad card? I feel like it could be very benificial to have main, especially if extended begins to become crowded with ported-from-standard Jund decks or the like.
Why no Lightning Bolt? This card should probably be in the list somewhere, but between the business spells, I don't really know where to fit it in.
The weakest link in the deck seems to be the silver bullet Cruel Ultimatum, which seems like that slot could be better served as something else.
What do you guys think a potential deck for Extended would look like, even into rotation, but more importantly while we have TS still at our disposale?
I was just a little fudgy about the negate. I didn't know whether or not it would be some situation where I had unnecessary info about cards in his hand or not. Situations like that come up so rarely, you don't have much opportunity to observe what happens.
Something came up playtesting on MWS today with Oblivion Ring and I just wanted to make sure this was correct. I was playing a U/W mirror match and went to Oblivion ring the guy's Sun Titan. Here's how it went down:
Me: Oblivion Ring?
Opponent: Targeting?
Me: Ok. Sun Titan.
Him: Negate.
Me: Oblivion Ring targets when it enters the battlefield. When it targets, it is no longer a spell. By asking what I'm targeting, you are conceding to the O-ring's resolution. O-ring resolves.
Him: *Several explicatives* that's not how that works.
Am I missing something here? Granted, that is kind of a shady way of getting your O-ring to resolve, but sometimes taking the short-cut of "O-ring targeting Sun Titan" misses the fact that O-ring doesn't target as a spell, for the same reason it tags Emrakul.
Also, given that my thinking is correct, what happens to his negate at this point? If O-ring is not a legal target to be countered, does the negate return to his hand, or fizzle and hit the yard?
Thanks in advance.
~CV
4x Hellspark Elemental
4x Plated Geopede
4x Hell’s Thunder
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Burst Lightning
4x Searing Blaze
3x Forked Bolt
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Rootbound Crag
7x Mountain
3x Forest
I'm still not convinced Sword of Vengeance is terrible, as it can make a recursive big beater, either with unearth creatures or Garruk tokens in a pinch. I'll be testing without it to be certain.
As for losing the burst lightnings, I think they're too good to cut. I'll put in the Forked Bolt as extra points of burn, to fill the spots of Spitfire and SoV in the previous list.