I would at least consider testing the curse in this type of deck. Keep the Vampire Interloper in, the Curse of Stalked Prey, and Arc Trail, and you are sitting at 12 2cmc cards. That gives you a fair amount of variety in what you can do on T2. You can cast an evasive creature, cast removal, or add a pumping effect that has a strong synergy with other cards you are playing. Remember, an unchecked Rakish Heir, with a Curse out, is a 4 turn clock.
I think the more important thing to look at here is not the 2 drop slot, but overall creature count. It seems this deck is aggro. How many creatures are you running total?
Well, you could always run Curse of Stalked Prey. It's a two drop, and things can get hairy with it in play. I run a B/R vamps deck (just for fun), and I do win with it. When I do win, it's because I have a curse in play, and could stick a few Heirs or Nobles for a few rounds each.
Prime example, I built a Red/White landfall aggro deck back in Alara/Zendikar standard. After much tweaking and testing, I found out about a deck called "Boros Bushwhacker" and looked up a list. There were only 2-3 Unique card differences. I did something similar with Pyromancer/Exarch. Point being, not everyone who plays an archetype net decks. Should I be expected to choose a new deck, just because my deck turns out to be "established"? I would say no.
This.
With the limited card pool in STD, there is little chance that any truly competitive deck a person brewed will be significantly different than the competitive decks in the meta. There are exceptions, of course, but the best cards are limited, and the best interactions and strategies are often even more limited. You can go out of your way to try to "break" a new archetype, but that is more an experiment in creativity than anything else. I would not suggest trying to play in a competitive format if you do not like this concept. People will try to win, and they will use the cards they think are best. Many people, myself included, brew before looking at the opinions on sites like this, or at Pro results.
**As an edit: I will say I was disappointed when I thought I invented a deck I called "Kithikin Kombo", only to come to this site and see it was already a deck, a good bit better than mine, called "Mirror Master"**
I copy and paste what they said, and say it back. It gets funny when they catch what is going on. Rarely, it baits them into saying something dumb like "I fail at life.", thinking I will repeat it. I switch it up on them and reply with something like, "Well, at least we know what the problem is!" Nerd rage ahoy!
I think you did a good job on this. I know a ton of Timmies that love cards like Phyrexian Crusader or Chandra Nalaar. Not the biggest cards in the world, but they get a lot of joy seeing them hit the board because they are a favorite. I also have a guy in my play group, who would by the old definition be a Spike, but is actually a Johnny. He doesn't care about winning as much as his synergy-oriented aggro decks make it seem. What's important to him, at the end of the match, is someone telling him his deck is awesome.
Every time I walk in to my LGS, there is a crowd of people buying, selling, trading, and playing with Magic cards. Several of them are new to the game buying their first "real" decks constructed from singles. The shop itself has expanded and started renting more space. I see more people playing now than 5 years ago, that's for certain.
I'm just getting into Pauper, and am trying out a RW caw-bladish sort of deck. I gotta say, I love the format. It's gameplay is similar to limited, which is my deep homeboy.
Anywhom, I see that WW is an accepted archetype... how do people feel about the caw-go version? Right now I'm running Squadron Hawk, Glint Hawk and its Idol, Accorder Shield/Copper Carapace/Flayer Husk, Tumble Magnet, and some more fliers (I have no Kor Skyfishers yet, but I plan on running a playset.)
I splash red for Bolt, Rally the Forces and Concussive Bolt. The deck itself needs a little ironing, but plays very nicely (GH turn 1 w/ shield, turn 2 w/other equipment, bouncing my Husk/Magnet/Carapace for extra value; etc)
But yes, pauper is awesome and I like it.
Squadron Hawk is huge right now in standard pauper. It looks like all the cards you are running are T2, so I am assuming you are playing standard pauper (a format I love). Kor Skyfisher is a dominant card as well. For tuning that deck, consider running Burst Lightning, Staggershock, and Searing Blaze. All good choices for a burn suite. R/W landfall was a dominant deck for a while, but is falling out of favor because of sideboard hate. It runs Steppe Lynx and Plated Geopede for fast beats. Personally, I think it still is a good deck. I never found the Glints to be very effective, but there is a deck called metalhawk or "hawk smash" that is dedicated to them. Leonin Skyhunter and Kemba's Skyguard are pretty much staples in WW, so if you aren't liking the Glint Hawks, you can try those. Inspired Charge is also another card worth running to give that Squadron of Hawks some more oomph.
Glad to see some people getting into pauper. This thread needs all the love it can get.
I had a friend quit for similar reasons. He thought we was better than he actually was. When that was proven to him, he quit.
It happened in a PTQ some years back. Fairies was still a dominant deck, but Demigod Deck Wins had been showing out strong and taking down a number of top 8's around the nation. My friend had spent a month or so getting fairies together, and thought he had a lock on this PTQ. In his mind he had the best deck, and was the best pilot, so he would win, barring bad luck.
Well by the time I showed up to watch, and wait for drafts to start, he had lost one already in the mirror. He sits down next against DDW. I watch him play a to a loss in game 1. His opponent pretty much drew the nuts. Game two I watched him misplay a few counters, countering removals he could have dealt with, and letting things like a Figure of Destiny and damage to the head resolve. It was the damage to the dome that ended up being bad news, as he lost with the opponent at 2 life.
I asked him about his games, how he thought they went. I commented on how it was unlucky that he never drew a Thoughtseize in any of his games. He responded by telling me that he didn't have any, because nobody wanted to trade for them before the PTQ started. He then went on to say he was selling his deck and quitting Magic. I was shocked, not only that he was quitting, but that he wasn't packing one of the best cards on the format at a PTQ. I explained to him that he shouldn't quit, things happen, that he wasn't experienced as he thought he was. I told him that I studied that meta, watched people play games, and play-tested from many angles before a serious event. He should give it another chance, at a more relaxed level. After all, the game is actually for fun, not for winning money.
Needless to say, he still quit. He couldn't deal with the fact that he was the architect of his own demise. I feel that the OP is in a similar boat though. You just were not as good as you thought you were. We all face this at some point in our Magic careers. What makes a good player is either not caring, and focusing on the fun...or coming to grips with the fact that you are not at the pinnacle of your game yet, and persevere.
You made a play error, and an opponent capitalized. This is the way of the walk in MTG. I would even do it against some of my casual playgroup to enforce good habits in competition. I would expect for sure for them to do it to me. Are you really going to let embarrassment rob you of a lifetime of fun and opportunity for friendship?
I think that the first step in any sort of resolution at all is for both sides to stop giving lame excuses and comments about this or that and just put their real motives out there. Pro-reserved list is mostly players who will be pissed if what cost them $600 in lands will only cost $200 for newer players after a reprint. Anti-reserved list is mostly players who want high power cards for cheap prices. I say mostly for both cases because there are some outliers (true collectors who don't want prices of collections to take a big hit and true players who just want a revival of a format blocked by an entry price).
So there you go. Stop prancing about and stop trying to make your side seem so justified with all these high and mighty reasons. Get down to the facts and start actually discussing things. These threads pop up constantly and it always just turns into bickering and disagreement and lots of flaming back and forth. So let's actually have what this thread is called out for: let's have a discussion.
I want to play Legacy with something other than my Burn deck. I can't afford to spend the money needed to attain a superior mana base. I want duals to be cheap so that I can buy them all and start building tons of Legacy decks with them. I welcome any and all constructive comments from players who own duals and are against the reserved list.
(snipped for brevity)
Ok. I will come out and say it. I have zero interest in playing Vintage. I have zero interest in collecting cards. I am against the reserved list because I think it is unfair to people who want to play a game to be shut out by the generation before them. I think it's doubly unfair for these people who were players, and named the best cards "Power", to convert something they used as an expensive plaything into an "investment". Collector's items are a dangerous game money-wise, trust me I spent years as a huge baseball card collector, only to have all the value drop out. Same thing with my comics. You take that risk as a collector. Either you collect those items because you love them, and don't care about the price, or you collect for money, and buy low/ sell high. But trying to strong-arm a piece of cardboard to retain value, so your "Magic portfolio" does't tank is ludicrous, and unfair to people who truly love the game. People who are that worried about their investments value should sell now, and buy gold.
You wanted honesty about my motives. How's that?
And furthermore, I don't believe it's Average Joe with a basement full of dual lands and expensive rares that is sweating the Reserved list. It's early card shops that had a close relationship with Wizards that are doing it. They have large quantities of old boxes unopened that they sell, and removed from the market at times to inflate Reserved List card's value. It's unopened boxes that will devalue, as they are viewed as a gambler's way of getting cheaper power. If you can just buy cheaper power, then unopened boxes will lose value. I still think Average Joe and his Basement of Power are safe. Hell, I'd even wager that if prices on these cards went up, a lot of individual collectors still would not sell.
1) That assumes they would not have skyrocketed if proxies have not been allowed.
2) Allowing proxies made for more people playing the format. More people playing the format -> increase in demand. And a lot of people NO NOT like proxies. Just dig up a few "what do you think of proxies?" threads. Increase in demand, proxies not acceptable to a significant number of people=increase in price.
You are kind of making my point for me, and your first point contradicts your second.
Proxies weren't allowed in tournaments because the prices of P9 and such were falling into an affordable price range. Proxies are the result of prices skyrocketing, not a roadblock to it. A lot of people don't like proxies, yet it is still very common to allow 10 per deck in tourneys. There would be people who didn't like reprints, although they would be allowed in tourneys. The possibility that those running unsanctioned events would end the use of proxies, and allow for reprints to become the "new proxies" creates the situation that you describe in your second point. After all, it's not like Wizards would reprint the whole Reserved list at once. Even if the p9 were all printed the same year, you would still have less than the amount of proxies allowed in the average tournament available to players.
@necrogenesis: While I do agree that you have a point that the playability of MTG card does have an impact on price, I don't think the Reserved List value really applies.
Vintage is an unsupported format, and not under the sanctions of the DCI. As such, many tournaments allow for a certain number of proxies. Usually this number is 10. This covers proxies of the p9 plus another. Allowing these proxies in no way affects the value of the cards they represent. For an unsanctioned format, like Vintage, reprints would effectively be a more expensive proxy. If players can effectively play p9 by proxies in many tournaments where prize support is on the line, why haven't p9 prices fallen, instead of risen?
T2 Pauper is rough. There is usually one deck that is very, very good, and it's usually burn.
Combo can be annoying, so if you'd rather do aggro vs aggro and burn vs burn all day, T2 Pauper might be worth checking out. Personally I prefer the eternal pauper metagame, but to each their own.
Block pauper is more fun, in my opinion. You'd think that with only 161 cards, there would be a really dominant deck, but it actually plays a fair bit like block constructed.
Right now block pauper is really healthy, because burn the impure is creatures only, and galvanic blast is just a shock unless you play some permanents. Red is still really strong, but it's not the T2 pauper of just "burn you out."
(Infect is really nasty in block pauper, but surprisingly it's beatable.)
Gotta disagree here. T2 Pauper has a wide variety of decks at the top right now, and burn isn't that strong. The reason is Kor Skyfisher being so dominant, and combo-ing it with a Lone Missionary usually takes you out of burn range. Although as a caveat, I will say that Skyfisher is everywhere and has had a huge impact on the meta. Off the top of my head I can name a few decks that are good right now: Bant tokens, Esper Control, 4C Allies, and UG Infect.
So how is that an argument against the reserved list? If a store makes money from selling singles, and the reserve list protects prices of the tournament-worthy singles (dual lands, Moat, etc.), then doesn't it stand to reason the reserved list protects those stores' investments?
This statement assumes too much. There is no evidence that the prices of any staples would fall. Based on similar circumstances in other collectibles markets, the evidence, (be it circumstantial), points in the other direction. Stores would also stand to make huge windfall profits in the form of high demand reprints, in a dealer friendly form such as FTV. To tell the truth, stores would probably make huge profits off of sales of the reprinted singles as well. The only people that limited reprints of the reserved list would hurt are stores who have hoarded the boxes where those cards come from. And Wizards, since they would get sued. Even though they would win in court, it's cheaper to settle than try, and given enough suits it would be too expensive.
Personally, I advocate Standard Pauper (SP) for friends of mine that want to focus in on deck building skills. Much like Limited formats, SP focuses on curve, synergy, and efficiency. It also has a greater degree of flexibility in the meta game for rogue building, as the highest powered decks are not inherently based on powerful cards, but synergy.
Considered that the cards may be stolen? Consider the purchase of a 2TB hard disk by someone who was "short on cash", initial disinterest on the value of cards, and how easily he let go of (estimated) $500 worth of cards when his blackmail hit the first hurdle.
Cards may be hot, and he's quickly trying to get it off him for the least amount of trouble possible, even if he doesn't get full (or even proper) value for it. Just like how junkies who steal handphones will sell it at 1/10th of the value...just to get something out of it.
I agree, and had the same initial thought. His behavior is strange for a person who believes they have lost something of value.
I think the more important thing to look at here is not the 2 drop slot, but overall creature count. It seems this deck is aggro. How many creatures are you running total?
This.
With the limited card pool in STD, there is little chance that any truly competitive deck a person brewed will be significantly different than the competitive decks in the meta. There are exceptions, of course, but the best cards are limited, and the best interactions and strategies are often even more limited. You can go out of your way to try to "break" a new archetype, but that is more an experiment in creativity than anything else. I would not suggest trying to play in a competitive format if you do not like this concept. People will try to win, and they will use the cards they think are best. Many people, myself included, brew before looking at the opinions on sites like this, or at Pro results.
**As an edit: I will say I was disappointed when I thought I invented a deck I called "Kithikin Kombo", only to come to this site and see it was already a deck, a good bit better than mine, called "Mirror Master"**
Squadron Hawk is huge right now in standard pauper. It looks like all the cards you are running are T2, so I am assuming you are playing standard pauper (a format I love). Kor Skyfisher is a dominant card as well. For tuning that deck, consider running Burst Lightning, Staggershock, and Searing Blaze. All good choices for a burn suite. R/W landfall was a dominant deck for a while, but is falling out of favor because of sideboard hate. It runs Steppe Lynx and Plated Geopede for fast beats. Personally, I think it still is a good deck. I never found the Glints to be very effective, but there is a deck called metalhawk or "hawk smash" that is dedicated to them. Leonin Skyhunter and Kemba's Skyguard are pretty much staples in WW, so if you aren't liking the Glint Hawks, you can try those. Inspired Charge is also another card worth running to give that Squadron of Hawks some more oomph.
Glad to see some people getting into pauper. This thread needs all the love it can get.
It happened in a PTQ some years back. Fairies was still a dominant deck, but Demigod Deck Wins had been showing out strong and taking down a number of top 8's around the nation. My friend had spent a month or so getting fairies together, and thought he had a lock on this PTQ. In his mind he had the best deck, and was the best pilot, so he would win, barring bad luck.
Well by the time I showed up to watch, and wait for drafts to start, he had lost one already in the mirror. He sits down next against DDW. I watch him play a to a loss in game 1. His opponent pretty much drew the nuts. Game two I watched him misplay a few counters, countering removals he could have dealt with, and letting things like a Figure of Destiny and damage to the head resolve. It was the damage to the dome that ended up being bad news, as he lost with the opponent at 2 life.
I asked him about his games, how he thought they went. I commented on how it was unlucky that he never drew a Thoughtseize in any of his games. He responded by telling me that he didn't have any, because nobody wanted to trade for them before the PTQ started. He then went on to say he was selling his deck and quitting Magic. I was shocked, not only that he was quitting, but that he wasn't packing one of the best cards on the format at a PTQ. I explained to him that he shouldn't quit, things happen, that he wasn't experienced as he thought he was. I told him that I studied that meta, watched people play games, and play-tested from many angles before a serious event. He should give it another chance, at a more relaxed level. After all, the game is actually for fun, not for winning money.
Needless to say, he still quit. He couldn't deal with the fact that he was the architect of his own demise. I feel that the OP is in a similar boat though. You just were not as good as you thought you were. We all face this at some point in our Magic careers. What makes a good player is either not caring, and focusing on the fun...or coming to grips with the fact that you are not at the pinnacle of your game yet, and persevere.
You made a play error, and an opponent capitalized. This is the way of the walk in MTG. I would even do it against some of my casual playgroup to enforce good habits in competition. I would expect for sure for them to do it to me. Are you really going to let embarrassment rob you of a lifetime of fun and opportunity for friendship?
(snipped for brevity)
Ok. I will come out and say it. I have zero interest in playing Vintage. I have zero interest in collecting cards. I am against the reserved list because I think it is unfair to people who want to play a game to be shut out by the generation before them. I think it's doubly unfair for these people who were players, and named the best cards "Power", to convert something they used as an expensive plaything into an "investment". Collector's items are a dangerous game money-wise, trust me I spent years as a huge baseball card collector, only to have all the value drop out. Same thing with my comics. You take that risk as a collector. Either you collect those items because you love them, and don't care about the price, or you collect for money, and buy low/ sell high. But trying to strong-arm a piece of cardboard to retain value, so your "Magic portfolio" does't tank is ludicrous, and unfair to people who truly love the game. People who are that worried about their investments value should sell now, and buy gold.
You wanted honesty about my motives. How's that?
And furthermore, I don't believe it's Average Joe with a basement full of dual lands and expensive rares that is sweating the Reserved list. It's early card shops that had a close relationship with Wizards that are doing it. They have large quantities of old boxes unopened that they sell, and removed from the market at times to inflate Reserved List card's value. It's unopened boxes that will devalue, as they are viewed as a gambler's way of getting cheaper power. If you can just buy cheaper power, then unopened boxes will lose value. I still think Average Joe and his Basement of Power are safe. Hell, I'd even wager that if prices on these cards went up, a lot of individual collectors still would not sell.
You are kind of making my point for me, and your first point contradicts your second.
Proxies weren't allowed in tournaments because the prices of P9 and such were falling into an affordable price range. Proxies are the result of prices skyrocketing, not a roadblock to it. A lot of people don't like proxies, yet it is still very common to allow 10 per deck in tourneys. There would be people who didn't like reprints, although they would be allowed in tourneys. The possibility that those running unsanctioned events would end the use of proxies, and allow for reprints to become the "new proxies" creates the situation that you describe in your second point. After all, it's not like Wizards would reprint the whole Reserved list at once. Even if the p9 were all printed the same year, you would still have less than the amount of proxies allowed in the average tournament available to players.
Vintage is an unsupported format, and not under the sanctions of the DCI. As such, many tournaments allow for a certain number of proxies. Usually this number is 10. This covers proxies of the p9 plus another. Allowing these proxies in no way affects the value of the cards they represent. For an unsanctioned format, like Vintage, reprints would effectively be a more expensive proxy. If players can effectively play p9 by proxies in many tournaments where prize support is on the line, why haven't p9 prices fallen, instead of risen?
Gotta disagree here. T2 Pauper has a wide variety of decks at the top right now, and burn isn't that strong. The reason is Kor Skyfisher being so dominant, and combo-ing it with a Lone Missionary usually takes you out of burn range. Although as a caveat, I will say that Skyfisher is everywhere and has had a huge impact on the meta. Off the top of my head I can name a few decks that are good right now: Bant tokens, Esper Control, 4C Allies, and UG Infect.
This statement assumes too much. There is no evidence that the prices of any staples would fall. Based on similar circumstances in other collectibles markets, the evidence, (be it circumstantial), points in the other direction. Stores would also stand to make huge windfall profits in the form of high demand reprints, in a dealer friendly form such as FTV. To tell the truth, stores would probably make huge profits off of sales of the reprinted singles as well. The only people that limited reprints of the reserved list would hurt are stores who have hoarded the boxes where those cards come from. And Wizards, since they would get sued. Even though they would win in court, it's cheaper to settle than try, and given enough suits it would be too expensive.
I agree, and had the same initial thought. His behavior is strange for a person who believes they have lost something of value.