1) I'm not sure what you mean by my claim would have got weaker. Furthermore, I would say what we have here is a difference in mafia theory. You seem to think it would have been a good idea to deploy my gambit when it was safer, however the point of a gambit is last ditch resort sort of thing (when scum, it's different as town when you gambit). I've run so many gambits as of now I'm confident I've got it figured out to.
Also, I wanted to apologize to Pale Mage, for somewhat unwittingly instigating your lynch. I overthought the situation, clearly.
No apologies necessary! Such things happen in mafia.
Sorry to see you go...but what a game to go out on, eh? Couldn't ask for more. Best of luck to you in all your future endeavors, and don't be a stranger.
Really enjoyed this game, Zindabad. Fun roles and cool flavor. Glad I replaced in! (Doubly so since I couldn't replace into your last one when you really needed a couple of folks).
I'm back on hiatus for a while while I do other things (among them figuring out what this "Legacy" thing is in preparation for GP: Atl), but I'll be back playing eventually. I'll at least be poking my head in to read a couple of games.
EBWOP: We can't just auto-lynch tomorrow or vote for the first guy with an emotional outburst. You have to sift through both suspects and be certain. Neither post at a good clip, and the deadlines aren't getting any shorter.
Kpaca or Xyre, be proactive. Wield the stick and poke 'em.
I'm going to be late for work, but I need to respond to these allegations.
Seems I touched a nerve.
The math pushed me over the edge, personally. I thought it seemed pretty solid, and in fact I think it possibly spoke of inside info on the numbers associated with the mafiakill, which factored into my decision to vote you today.
Fair enough, but you must admit you were leaning Wessel prior to the math posts.
Going back and reading it, I had forgotten about your one-shot clock freeze, in truth. You'll concede that just a roleblock during a season feels incomplete? That was my mindset.
I figured you were either ignoring it or had forgotten. Really the only way to accept me as scum is to assume I've made up the second ability. No way does a scum Pale let Spring happen.
DJ was brought up as scum-possible more than anyone else going into that day, the votes on him to end the day are reason enough to get that vibe, considering the small number of people left in the game.
Xyre had thrown down the gauntlet at Wessel as IB was being given his necktie party. That was at the top of the agenda.
Come down to my level. If I'm accepting only one scum left, and trusting kpaca, it comes down to Brinatoo or you as the last mafioso. I made a choice while hopefully not in LYLO to trust the claim that made more sense to me.
Your level isn't far down if it's down at all, sir.
I also readily admit that your skill as a player lessened your behavior as a clearing tool.
It's gauche to flatter people as you execute them. I still have to do stuff that makes some kind of sense if I'm a bad guy.
Okay, on the good stuff...
I've done plenty this game, while not posting prolifically. True, I did prefer Vezok, but Void was the town's second lynch, made possible by me. I could have easily AZWOLGed Vezok anyway, but I didn't. You're downplaying how strongly I, and others, felt Vezok was scum at the time.
AZWOLGing Vezok would have been awful as scum. The bigger issue is what could be perceived as stalling the DK, perhaps giving Void the opportunity to come to make a decision as to whether he wanted to fire off his one-shot and end the Day.
This isn't damning, but let's not pretend the decision to shoot Void over Vezok says anything one way or the other about your alignment given the situation. Shooting Vezok would have brought heat, and you were going to lose Void one way or the other (assuming a scum Alpha, obv). Ultimately, it's null.
Also, did you ever consider that I had a good reason to shoot WoD when he mentioned shooting me? From my perspective it was an absurd suggestion that I couldn't let slide. It'd be wasting a town asset that was soon to be confirmed town on top of that.
My point is that you moved the quickest you've moved this game when he put a dot on your head. Changes in one's pace of play can be revealing. I'd be remiss not to bring it up.
Finally, I hammered DRey, when I didn't have to, and though Wessel was town, I shot him not on my own, but with town support, when even you were convinced it was the right move.
Though it was ultimately incorrect, you need to include it in what "I've done" this game, as it WAS proactive and the correct action to take at that point.
Neither of these things speaks to your alignment one way or the other. See the problem from our side? Hammering is just something that happens. It's easier to spot scum hammering townies or scumbuds than townies hammering anyone.
Shooting Wessel means nothing. It's proper play for you regardless of your alignment.
Now, this is where I get frustrated...you severely downplay what I've done in this game behaviorally, which I think has been pretty darned solid overall, and what's worse is you bring into my question my CLAIM and interaction with AsianInvasion.
You may think you have been town behaviorally this game, but take a step back and really look at the situation with me and AI. Xyre's info coming down has made me CONFIRMED TOWN. Ever heard of two scum being masons whose ALIGNMENTS AREN'T KNOWN TO EACH OTHER?!
From Zinda's role PM post:
You talk about laziness? To consider me as the last mafia is either desperate or lazy.
See, I don't understand why you're getting upset.
The phrase you're hanging your hat on is listed under the mason ability portion of the role PM. Given the nature of the setup, that does not exclude you from anything. Let's take into account that's the role PM of a known mafiate. So what is Zindabad telling him with that phrase? He doesn't know if you're Town or Neutral. And if both of those roles ended up in the hands of mafiates, the "mafia group" thing simply trumps the ability.
I'm not being lazy with this, Alpha. I've done a lot of noodling on the possibilities with respect to your role.
You're being remarkably obtuse for such a good player.
Actually, I'm a-cutey.
Nothing's 100% in mafia, but the stone cold facts say I'm as close to confirmed town as you're going to see, and to even sniff my way when there are other players with only behavioral info to go on is crazy in this end-game.
Part of me wonder how that's possible since you even noted the mason reveal as accurate when the role PM dump came down.
Given the nature of the setup, the biggest thing in your favor is Brin's claim that you're Town. That would mean that if you're Scum, he's Town and therefore you're a Godfather. That's a pretty big objection to overcome with respect to lynching you in my opinion. As I've said, I prefer Brin...but you should be examined.
I mean...please. Everything has to get looked at in LyLo. You know that.
I'll further say that I'm a bit surprised at the extent of your reaction to this. It again reminds me of the WoD quickdraw shot. However, I think Brin's reactions on Day One were worse, and you aren't pinning your defense on splitting hairs with dictionary definitions and huge text as he did.
Plus Asian stated he knew Alpha was town (based on their association), and Alpha didn't do the same.
Yeah, I noticed that on Night One and waited to see what Alpha was going to say in his first post. That's not a good point for Alpha in my book. I just liked his claim a great deal.
The way I saw it, Pale, the three of them were not going to vote Brinatoo. And I'm not going to be on tomorrow until mid-afternoon, so I had to throw down my chips.
It's cool. We've just played kinda bad for a few days. I know I'm in the miffed state that we all get into when we're mislynched, but to be fair I've said repeatedly y'all could lynch me if you really thought it best.
I would just like to see more of an effort to determine who's who before the vote happens, y'know? But deadline is deadline.
I'm going for Brinatoo tomorrow (if I'm alive). Like I said before, if it's Alpha or kpaca, I'm going to accept I've been beaten, because there are too many factors against those two being scum. If Alpha is scum, I have to believe he gunned down a fellow scum, with basically no provocation, for little reason. I also don't think scum Alpha would have played the masons bit the way he did if he was trying to save his scum buddy. And there are lots of little things about all that that don't fit.
I think there are good reasons to go for Brin over Alpha, but a Cop investigation on your scum bud while you're trying to explain to the rest of the town why you're mason buddy flipped scum isn't really "no provocation" nor "little reason".
If we lose this game, I'm blaming it on myself, for sure, but I'm also blaming Artifice, Iso, and kpaca. The three of you cost us at least half a dozen townies, because you couldn't play straight. (Oh, and zindabad, for reasons previously stated.)
If we lose this game, it's on all of us as it always is to one degree or other.
Everyone should post reads beore lynch if you read this. Scumlist in the currentborder for me is brinatoo, ai, then xyre. Im gonna reread ai hard though.
I can practically guarantee you Xyre is not scum in spite of the repeated "see you in the morning" phrases he's been fond of over the past few days.
EBWOP: ...and Brin should still be favored for lynch over Alpha just due to the whole Godfather thing. But you should review the behavior all the same. Punks.
Here's the dealeo, Xyre. You've (in the collective sense) gotten very, very lazy. Pretty certain you and kpain are the remaining townies (in spite of your continued declarations that you are going to survive Night after Night). One of you will be dead in the morning.
The remaining one is going to have a very difficult decision to make. The odds on favorite is Brin. And it probably is him. Check out his early Day One play and reactions to pressure. Notice how much emotion he puts into defending himself based on dictionary definitions. It's a bit odd. Keep in mind that "investigating" his main detractor got him miles ahead in the waiting game. Aside from report his results, what has he done this game? Nothing. He wouldn't even dig up the posts that he claimed made AE come off very differently from how he started in Day One.
Damning? No. But out of sync all the same.
Now, let's compare that to Alpha (you should hold him to answering my questions in the morning, btw...could be revealing one way or 'tother). What has Alpha actually done this game? Not much. Shot Void even though he preferred Vezok...but what was he going to do? The most proactive thing he did as I recall was shoot WoD. Granted, we were stalled hard at that point, but he did not hesitate to gun WoD down as soon as WoD said he would shoot Alpha in the Night phase. A bit touchy, that.
Again, damning? No. But self-protective all the same, and one side had more reason to be than the other at that time.
If it were up to me alone, I'd probably ship Brin...but not before I had answers from Alpha to weigh on the scale. And I'd sure as hell look back over both players completely in spite of the length of the game to come up with new perspectives and/or inquiries for both of them. Could be clarifying.
It's the kind of thing y'all should have done today. Lynching me is ridiculous. Brought you guys back on DRey on Day One when you had moved on. Told you repeatedly Iso wasn't to be pursued because he surely wasn't mafia. Practically begged you to leave iLord alone and gave you a specific moment of clarity to stew upon with regards to his alignment. Not to mention kpaca and Infectious Baloth, who I declared town (kpaca I refused to lynch and made it clear that was the case...IB I declared both of his predecessors town and had zero interest in lynching. I even told you why it was a bad idea re: Iso). And of course, DJ Catchem's lynch.
Yeah. I'm obviously running my scum game this time 'round.
I won't hammer myself prior to deadline. Good luck with your coin flip tomorrow.
Trying to get points when it wasn't nearly at lylo yet. Either it is a desperate attempt to get towny credit or some other crap scenario is present (godfather or kpaca pulled an excellent gambit from the near beginning)
It so sounds like the kind of gambit I'd pull, too. "Gosh, looks like Xyre is dead set on getting Wessel lynched tomorrow, DJC. Tell you what we should do...let's no-kill and I'll claim to have roleblocked you! That way we'll either be down a man or the town will have strong reason to keep you in the spotlight after they lynch Wessel! High-five!!"
My work tends to be better than that. And I don't do desperate things if I'm not in a desperate situation.
I vote PM today, if it isn't over then something is up with the cops. Sucky because I would HATE a godfather or w/e this late in the game. 5 months lol
And his math drove Wessel to the grave...I can't get rid of this nagging feeling that Pale Mage is hiding something. His claim feels incomplete, whereas I can envision a role like Brinatoo's being as he claimed. A guaranteed cop investigation that essentially can't be blocked is powerful, regardless of whether it's random or not.
Pretty sure I was the only one excited by my math. Xyre's mind was made up and everyone else was leaning towards Wessel anyway. In fact, I nearly cleared Wessel on math until I realized I did the math incorrectly the first time.
How does my claim feel incomplete, btw? I have two abilites in Winter. One of them is a one-shot.
Do you even remember my claim, Alpha? Walk me through this one.
With DJ being pretty much smoked already...
Are we reading the same game? Yesterday was going to be a Xyre-Wessel fight without my information. Kpaca and I were voting him the end of the Day prior, but that was it.
What makes you say he was smoked, sir?
I don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility that PM was just pulling a gambit with his roleblock claim.
Sure, I could be. Pretty dumb gambit, though. And you're ignoring my behavior throughout the entire game.
Basically, the "gambit + math" argument boils down to "Pale is scummy because he was right Yesterday and wrong Today", which is junk.
It seems off to me that you would dump the math you so strongly believed in yesterday because of your behavior read on kpaca.
Yup. There were good behavioral reasons to suspect Wessel. The math added up so I preferred him over Brin. Kpaca's behavior has been pretty norm for him, and the only way he can be scum is if he commited to a strong gambit early in the game after pushing hard on half his team. Possible, but not likely. And if that turns out to be the case he's already won the game as far as I'm concerned.
So, yeah...I'm not taking the math that failed me on a strong suspect and assume it's correct in the face of a poor one.
To be fair, that's the opposite of what he's suggesting.
My gut is telling me to Vote: Pale Mage
Hopefully I don't regret it.
Well, you will in the short term. But as I said earlier if the last scum isn't Brinatoo we're pretty much screwed, anyway.
Bottom line: If you lynch me today it's for terrible reasons. It shouldn't be the end of the world, though. Unless Brin has an ace up his sleeve we should still be fine.
Well, if it's kpaca or Alpha, I'll eat my hat. Pale Mage's results drove DJ to his grave. Which just leaves Brinatoo faking cop investigations on known townies.
I still feel like he's just been playing badly because he's bad, but he's the best suspect at this point.
I agree Brin is the best suspect at this point. The math points to kpaca, but behavior (particularly the early Days) trumps that by a good margin.
If it isn't Brin, we're either looking at Godfather shenanigans or kpaca. Frankly, if either of those is the case I'm pretty sure we're just dead in the water.
I believe you timed it perfectly.
No apologies necessary! Such things happen in mafia.
Sorry to see you go...but what a game to go out on, eh? Couldn't ask for more. Best of luck to you in all your future endeavors, and don't be a stranger.
Well done, sir! Congrats on the win.
Really enjoyed this game, Zindabad. Fun roles and cool flavor. Glad I replaced in! (Doubly so since I couldn't replace into your last one when you really needed a couple of folks).
I'm back on hiatus for a while while I do other things (among them figuring out what this "Legacy" thing is in preparation for GP: Atl), but I'll be back playing eventually. I'll at least be poking my head in to read a couple of games.
Kpaca or Xyre, be proactive. Wield the stick and poke 'em.
Seems I touched a nerve.
Fair enough, but you must admit you were leaning Wessel prior to the math posts.
I figured you were either ignoring it or had forgotten. Really the only way to accept me as scum is to assume I've made up the second ability. No way does a scum Pale let Spring happen.
Xyre had thrown down the gauntlet at Wessel as IB was being given his necktie party. That was at the top of the agenda.
Your level isn't far down if it's down at all, sir.
It's gauche to flatter people as you execute them. I still have to do stuff that makes some kind of sense if I'm a bad guy.
Okay, on the good stuff...
AZWOLGing Vezok would have been awful as scum. The bigger issue is what could be perceived as stalling the DK, perhaps giving Void the opportunity to come to make a decision as to whether he wanted to fire off his one-shot and end the Day.
This isn't damning, but let's not pretend the decision to shoot Void over Vezok says anything one way or the other about your alignment given the situation. Shooting Vezok would have brought heat, and you were going to lose Void one way or the other (assuming a scum Alpha, obv). Ultimately, it's null.
My point is that you moved the quickest you've moved this game when he put a dot on your head. Changes in one's pace of play can be revealing. I'd be remiss not to bring it up.
Neither of these things speaks to your alignment one way or the other. See the problem from our side? Hammering is just something that happens. It's easier to spot scum hammering townies or scumbuds than townies hammering anyone.
Shooting Wessel means nothing. It's proper play for you regardless of your alignment.
See, I don't understand why you're getting upset.
The phrase you're hanging your hat on is listed under the mason ability portion of the role PM. Given the nature of the setup, that does not exclude you from anything. Let's take into account that's the role PM of a known mafiate. So what is Zindabad telling him with that phrase? He doesn't know if you're Town or Neutral. And if both of those roles ended up in the hands of mafiates, the "mafia group" thing simply trumps the ability.
I'm not being lazy with this, Alpha. I've done a lot of noodling on the possibilities with respect to your role.
Actually, I'm a-cutey.
Given the nature of the setup, the biggest thing in your favor is Brin's claim that you're Town. That would mean that if you're Scum, he's Town and therefore you're a Godfather. That's a pretty big objection to overcome with respect to lynching you in my opinion. As I've said, I prefer Brin...but you should be examined.
I mean...please. Everything has to get looked at in LyLo. You know that.
I'll further say that I'm a bit surprised at the extent of your reaction to this. It again reminds me of the WoD quickdraw shot. However, I think Brin's reactions on Day One were worse, and you aren't pinning your defense on splitting hairs with dictionary definitions and huge text as he did.
Anywho, my vote's still where I want it.
Yeah, I noticed that on Night One and waited to see what Alpha was going to say in his first post. That's not a good point for Alpha in my book. I just liked his claim a great deal.
It's cool. We've just played kinda bad for a few days. I know I'm in the miffed state that we all get into when we're mislynched, but to be fair I've said repeatedly y'all could lynch me if you really thought it best.
I would just like to see more of an effort to determine who's who before the vote happens, y'know? But deadline is deadline.
I think there are good reasons to go for Brin over Alpha, but a Cop investigation on your scum bud while you're trying to explain to the rest of the town why you're mason buddy flipped scum isn't really "no provocation" nor "little reason".
If we lose this game, it's on all of us as it always is to one degree or other.
I can practically guarantee you Xyre is not scum in spite of the repeated "see you in the morning" phrases he's been fond of over the past few days.
Read his behavior.
I don't think he is. Go lynch him.
You're a fool, then.
None. As I've said multiple times today.
You, sir, are lynched tomorrow.
Sigh.
Here's the dealeo, Xyre. You've (in the collective sense) gotten very, very lazy. Pretty certain you and kpain are the remaining townies (in spite of your continued declarations that you are going to survive Night after Night). One of you will be dead in the morning.
The remaining one is going to have a very difficult decision to make. The odds on favorite is Brin. And it probably is him. Check out his early Day One play and reactions to pressure. Notice how much emotion he puts into defending himself based on dictionary definitions. It's a bit odd. Keep in mind that "investigating" his main detractor got him miles ahead in the waiting game. Aside from report his results, what has he done this game? Nothing. He wouldn't even dig up the posts that he claimed made AE come off very differently from how he started in Day One.
Damning? No. But out of sync all the same.
Now, let's compare that to Alpha (you should hold him to answering my questions in the morning, btw...could be revealing one way or 'tother). What has Alpha actually done this game? Not much. Shot Void even though he preferred Vezok...but what was he going to do? The most proactive thing he did as I recall was shoot WoD. Granted, we were stalled hard at that point, but he did not hesitate to gun WoD down as soon as WoD said he would shoot Alpha in the Night phase. A bit touchy, that.
Again, damning? No. But self-protective all the same, and one side had more reason to be than the other at that time.
If it were up to me alone, I'd probably ship Brin...but not before I had answers from Alpha to weigh on the scale. And I'd sure as hell look back over both players completely in spite of the length of the game to come up with new perspectives and/or inquiries for both of them. Could be clarifying.
It's the kind of thing y'all should have done today. Lynching me is ridiculous. Brought you guys back on DRey on Day One when you had moved on. Told you repeatedly Iso wasn't to be pursued because he surely wasn't mafia. Practically begged you to leave iLord alone and gave you a specific moment of clarity to stew upon with regards to his alignment. Not to mention kpaca and Infectious Baloth, who I declared town (kpaca I refused to lynch and made it clear that was the case...IB I declared both of his predecessors town and had zero interest in lynching. I even told you why it was a bad idea re: Iso). And of course, DJ Catchem's lynch.
Yeah. I'm obviously running my scum game this time 'round.
I won't hammer myself prior to deadline. Good luck with your coin flip tomorrow.
* Pale Mage stubs out smoke and folds arms.
It so sounds like the kind of gambit I'd pull, too. "Gosh, looks like Xyre is dead set on getting Wessel lynched tomorrow, DJC. Tell you what we should do...let's no-kill and I'll claim to have roleblocked you! That way we'll either be down a man or the town will have strong reason to keep you in the spotlight after they lynch Wessel! High-five!!"
My work tends to be better than that. And I don't do desperate things if I'm not in a desperate situation.
Would you just HATE it? Lol?
Any objection to being lynched, Brin?
Make sure you don't. No Lynch gets us no place. Capiche?
...and me makes three.
Pretty sure I was the only one excited by my math. Xyre's mind was made up and everyone else was leaning towards Wessel anyway. In fact, I nearly cleared Wessel on math until I realized I did the math incorrectly the first time.
How does my claim feel incomplete, btw? I have two abilites in Winter. One of them is a one-shot.
Do you even remember my claim, Alpha? Walk me through this one.
Are we reading the same game? Yesterday was going to be a Xyre-Wessel fight without my information. Kpaca and I were voting him the end of the Day prior, but that was it.
What makes you say he was smoked, sir?
Sure, I could be. Pretty dumb gambit, though. And you're ignoring my behavior throughout the entire game.
Basically, the "gambit + math" argument boils down to "Pale is scummy because he was right Yesterday and wrong Today", which is junk.
Yup. There were good behavioral reasons to suspect Wessel. The math added up so I preferred him over Brin. Kpaca's behavior has been pretty norm for him, and the only way he can be scum is if he commited to a strong gambit early in the game after pushing hard on half his team. Possible, but not likely. And if that turns out to be the case he's already won the game as far as I'm concerned.
So, yeah...I'm not taking the math that failed me on a strong suspect and assume it's correct in the face of a poor one.
Well, you will in the short term. But as I said earlier if the last scum isn't Brinatoo we're pretty much screwed, anyway.
Bottom line: If you lynch me today it's for terrible reasons. It shouldn't be the end of the world, though. Unless Brin has an ace up his sleeve we should still be fine.
I agree Brin is the best suspect at this point. The math points to kpaca, but behavior (particularly the early Days) trumps that by a good margin.
If it isn't Brin, we're either looking at Godfather shenanigans or kpaca. Frankly, if either of those is the case I'm pretty sure we're just dead in the water.
Vote: Brinatoo