I think everyone is missing the fact it's on a land that can simply be played and tap for colorless. Leyline has a HUGE drawback in that it does absolutely nothing when noone is playing graveyard shenanigans, has to be in your opening hand to be for free, and puts you behind a card. Path doesn't have any of these drawbacks.
Okay. Cool. Agreed that this card has a different utility. BUT THAT'S CHANGING THE ARGUMENT. If you want to make the argument that it's better than Leyline, fine.
We're also forgetting the fact that this stealing archetype was so powerful because there wasn't anything that could hose it. And now we have it and it feels strange because it used to be so powerful.
So it goes. That doesn't mean I think you are whining too much. I'd prefer if you would, however, admit that every deck has huge problems against SOMETHING. And now so does the stealing archetype. And many people here have admitted that and are saying "I wish it wasn't so, but it is."
An open challenge to the people that think is card is fair vs. the theft archtype.
You name me one card that meets these standards and I will apologize to you and say you are the greatest and that I am a whinning biatch.
1) This card kills an archtype (pick anyone for your example)
2) This card does not use the stack. So it can't be countered.
3) Is does not have any kind of drawback. (mana costs as well)
4) It's effect is reusable.
5) The archtype that you say that it hoses can't have many answers to it.
I can get pretty close with Leyline of the Void against mono-black graveyard shenanigans. Very hard for black to deal with enchantments. It only fails 2), but countering isn't something black does anyway, and when it's out at the start of the game . . .
EDIT: reading the rules, it looks like if you start with it in play at the beginning it can't be countered anyway.
What I'm complaining about is the over-poweredness of this nerf. It's a huge over-reaction that crushes the deck type so hard that in my opinion, it's probably not still playable. I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all here to ask for Wizards to try to keep things at least somewhat balanced.
Okay. While I disagree that it is over-powered, I can see how you perceive it. I think it's a good balance, but that may be my perception and where I stand in the game.
Attend an EDH event with big prizes on the line and you're surrounded by Top Storm 4-5 turn kills.
The beauty of EDH is that every scene is different. I see plenty of EDH decks that don't run a single "theft" card, and others that don't have more than 10 total creatures...
People saying "WOTC is killing EDH" haven't been playing enough different people. EDH was "killed" the minute it became popular enough for people to want to win prizes by playing the format.
I agree with you completely. Part of the issue here is the different scenes and the different styles. I can't imagine playing for prizes because I can't imagine playing with decks that kill turn four or five. I might as well play type ii again. I like the concept that different generals have different weaknesses. It's the closest I've ever come to being a Vorthos.
There are a few choices here that I saw and thought... "Oh man, I could totally use that crappy little common in X EDH deck..."
I like the cut of your jib.
In addition, it gives me access to some of those commons without searching through all the giant boxes at the local store. Is that lazy? Absolutely. But it saves me time, creates a set of decks that I can keep together or take apart or whatever. And I get to see these commons in a whole new light.
I'm also astounded that people are making assumptions on how good the deck are before playing them. Even though I know 85-90% of the reprints, I don't know how they're going to interact with each other or how balanced everything is going to be. I suspect five player with these five pre-cons will be awesome, even before changing things around.
I feel like I am getting my $30 (well, $150 really, as I will get all five) worth. Even if the cards were only worth $25, I would feel that way.
However, if your at a table of 4 people, and 3 people are running this card, that's a completely different story, because it helps everyone but you, and everyone is running it, because they can.
Everyone can run Thran Foundry against graveyard recursion as well. Yes, this is not as strong a point as I would like to make, but it gets to the idea. In addition, if all 3 are running that card AND manage to get it out against you . . . I'm sorry. It sounds like a bad day at the office
I want to make it clear I think that blue is both viable, and in some cases fun to both play and play against. But it seems like when an answer comes out for all colors (and often even just one color) the spirit of blue gets angry because now it must think and tinker to create a new control.
Jesus. Anyone complaining about this card doesn't know how to build decks, because if you're not running cards that say "destroy/exile target permanent" you're doing it wrong.
Agreed. In addition, a question:
to those of you who play "steal" techniques, what other win conditions do you have for your deck other than stealing other people's stuff? Are those win conditions less viable now as well?
Well most "hosers" are one time use and require a cost. This doesn't and you can use it over and over again. I felt they pretty much kicked blue in the balls with these pre-cons. No more stealing, no more tutoring, and no more extra turns... IMO blue was the strongest color in EDH, but I don't think it needed this much hate. I'm sure blue can bounce the land and the enchantment but it's just stalls making the blue decks even slower and games already last long enough playing blue control type decks.
Edit: I'm sure this land will be in almost every EDH deck and I'm sure every red deck will have the enchantment. And I'm even more sure there's not a lot of decks with Omen Machine. You can't compare staple hosers to a niche card.
So what you're saying is that blue is going to have to work harder to gain control over the board and do the things they want to do.
Good. It's called conflict. It's called the meaning of EDH (at least to me, YMMV). Let's face it--a blue deck that controls and takes over the whole board is a whole lot of fun . . . for exactly one player. At least now people have the belief that they can fight back. Really, they can't. Really, it isn't nearly enough to hose blue and blue is still more powerful than the rest.
Fine. Blue always has been and always will be, and that's why it appeals to Spike more than anything else. But in your complaining about hosing YOU GIVE THREE DIFFERENT WAYS TO DEFEAT THIS CARD. And most of those already occur in decks.
Finally: how are staple hosers different than niche cards?
Well... looks like my Merieke Ri Berit deck (that I just built only a couple weeks ago) will need to start packing some land disruption. I was only trying to be a little bit of a douchebag, but WotC has left me no choice but to play dirty pool.
it's impossible to only be a little bit of a jerk while playing Merieke. I actually ended up giving up that deck when no one would play against it any more. Not because I always won, but because when I did it wasn't fun, and even when I lost--who wants to play against their own big creatures or just have them die when I use one of my 20 untap tricks. =\.
I don't think it does. If you were already running land destruction, great, you have a way to deal with this. You were probably already worried by the fifteen other, stronger, more important lands. Leave my Cabal Coffers alone and kill this card. That's fine. One more utility land doesn't mean the sky is falling.
Like many have said, they *supposedly* don't want to encourage land destruction, but that's exactly what this does. They printed a land specifically to hose an entire segment of blue/black/and even red Magic just to appease these complainers and reassure players new to the format that they'll get to keep their stuff and that they need not worry about those big bad blue mages. That, to me, is unprecedented and unwarranted, and downright pathetic. This is lazy design. Between this and Stranglehold, I don't know what is more unfairly targeted at an entire segment of players.
No. This is completely precendented. It is one card that focuses on one aspect of some decks. See Chill. See Moat. See Boil. See Flashfire. See Pyroblast. See Blood moon. See Melira, Sylvok Outcast. All of those are actually worse for specific play styles. If a single card is messing up your entire deck then it's not build right. As a casual player, you would search for answers (some of which might be land destruction, but it might also be to Confiscate the land as well). Competitively, you should be running the land destruction anyway. But don't tell me that it's unprecendented to make a card that helps players do what they want to do while severely hurting a specific play style. That's called Magic.
Yeah... just spent about $200 putting together a blue steal deck, haven't even played with it yet. Thanks for the punch in the face, Wizards, good grief. No CiPT, no sacrifice effect, ugh. I'm wondering if my deck is worth trying to salvage. I'm either going to have to be a total prick (Back to Basics) or dedicate as many slots as possible to land stealing (Annex, etc.)/destruction. This is a terrible, terrible design.
It is worth trying to salvage. You can do so many things to get rid of that one land. Think of it as a challenge.
To reiterate: THE SKY IS NOT FALLING. It is one card--a good, versatile, useful card--that hoses one area of the game and one play style. It will be included in most decks that can afford it. It will be something to work around. There are all kinds of options for dealing with it. One land does not promote more land destruction, especially not this one, not in the way people are thinking about it at least. It isn't a combo piece. It isn't format warping. It's a card that a subset of groups will have to consider.
You have no idea how much "value" I've lost on Magic cards. If I paid attention to it, it would make me sick.
We've all been starving students dude. I started playing in 1994, fresh out of college. Yes, I'm old. I had a playset of Revised/Unlimited duals. I sold it in 1999 or 2000 for $250. It makes me angry and sad when I think about it. I had Moxen, Ancestral Recall, Force of Wills, etc. I sold them all for well below what they're worth these days. And I overpay for pre-release cards to this day. But I love playing, and I accept that the paper worth of these cards will fluctuate just like any equity. I hope they have some value if and when I ever sell them. But right now, I enjoy playing, and that's enough.
Yeah, and some of the ones I've held on to suddenly jump in price and I'm all like--what?
example: goblin welders, sneak attacks, daze
it's cardboard. people like playing with it. i like playing with it. occasionally it works the other way to--about two years ago I bought a collection for $100 and it had one of each of the dual lands in it.
be happy with cards you have and if you pay a lot for one, roll with it.
That was just an example, yes, there isnt any $20 card. YET. BUT, Remember the Power creep started with azorious herald, trygon predator, then it turned into baneslayer and titans.
And my man, u r wrong. Magic IS NOT an investment. It’s just a game. I don’t make much money, and for me to shell out so much to play Legacy, it really would piss me off if they reprint those cards so others can get those for like ¼ of the price I paid for. How would u feel ? I have to work for my money, it’s not like I can just throw my money away. I don’t invest in Magic, I don’t use the game to make money – I just play. That’s all I do.
so let me get this straight--you play for fun. You like to play. But you're angry because others who get to play will have to pay less than you for the same enjoyment.
You don't see it as an investment, but you're angry that card prices drop. Why? Does it make the fact you have a rishadan port any less true? You have one, so do others. The playing field is fairer now.
I hope lots of cards get reprinted from old sets for use in EDH. I hope vintage cards get reprinted so people can afford to play that as well (yes, yes, I know that won't happen). I hope that one day people will be able to have the cards that they want and not have to save their pennies day in and day out like you and I did. I want them to have as much fun as possible in a game that I enjoy as well. I feel like getting mad that someone payed less than me for a card I ALREADY HAVE FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES is asinine and vindictive.
I would feel differently if it was an investment for me. But it's not--I play to have fun.
I've been out of Magic four about six or seven months. I want something fun to play for FNM, but something quirky. Winning is a good thing, obviously, but I'd like to play something that's on the rise, not something established. I have minimal ideas on what is working out there now, but do have access to most cards.
I was thinking about a UW level deck, but have a feeling that it can't be built to work all of the time.
The decks I usually play are homebrewish using solid cards. My last deck was a Knight of the Reliquary mid range. I also have a Bazaar Trader deck floating around here somewhere. Anyway, ideas would be awesome. I prefer the deck building side, but am unfamiliar with what works together right now in Magic.
Okay. Cool. Agreed that this card has a different utility. BUT THAT'S CHANGING THE ARGUMENT. If you want to make the argument that it's better than Leyline, fine.
We're also forgetting the fact that this stealing archetype was so powerful because there wasn't anything that could hose it. And now we have it and it feels strange because it used to be so powerful.
So it goes. That doesn't mean I think you are whining too much. I'd prefer if you would, however, admit that every deck has huge problems against SOMETHING. And now so does the stealing archetype. And many people here have admitted that and are saying "I wish it wasn't so, but it is."
I can get pretty close with Leyline of the Void against mono-black graveyard shenanigans. Very hard for black to deal with enchantments. It only fails 2), but countering isn't something black does anyway, and when it's out at the start of the game . . .
EDIT: reading the rules, it looks like if you start with it in play at the beginning it can't be countered anyway.
Okay. While I disagree that it is over-powered, I can see how you perceive it. I think it's a good balance, but that may be my perception and where I stand in the game.
I agree with you completely. Part of the issue here is the different scenes and the different styles. I can't imagine playing for prizes because I can't imagine playing with decks that kill turn four or five. I might as well play type ii again. I like the concept that different generals have different weaknesses. It's the closest I've ever come to being a Vorthos.
I like the cut of your jib.
In addition, it gives me access to some of those commons without searching through all the giant boxes at the local store. Is that lazy? Absolutely. But it saves me time, creates a set of decks that I can keep together or take apart or whatever. And I get to see these commons in a whole new light.
I'm also astounded that people are making assumptions on how good the deck are before playing them. Even though I know 85-90% of the reprints, I don't know how they're going to interact with each other or how balanced everything is going to be. I suspect five player with these five pre-cons will be awesome, even before changing things around.
I feel like I am getting my $30 (well, $150 really, as I will get all five) worth. Even if the cards were only worth $25, I would feel that way.
Everyone can run Thran Foundry against graveyard recursion as well. Yes, this is not as strong a point as I would like to make, but it gets to the idea. In addition, if all 3 are running that card AND manage to get it out against you . . . I'm sorry. It sounds like a bad day at the office
I want to make it clear I think that blue is both viable, and in some cases fun to both play and play against. But it seems like when an answer comes out for all colors (and often even just one color) the spirit of blue gets angry because now it must think and tinker to create a new control.
That's the point! To adapt and change or die!
Agreed. In addition, a question:
to those of you who play "steal" techniques, what other win conditions do you have for your deck other than stealing other people's stuff? Are those win conditions less viable now as well?
So what you're saying is that blue is going to have to work harder to gain control over the board and do the things they want to do.
Good. It's called conflict. It's called the meaning of EDH (at least to me, YMMV). Let's face it--a blue deck that controls and takes over the whole board is a whole lot of fun . . . for exactly one player. At least now people have the belief that they can fight back. Really, they can't. Really, it isn't nearly enough to hose blue and blue is still more powerful than the rest.
Fine. Blue always has been and always will be, and that's why it appeals to Spike more than anything else. But in your complaining about hosing YOU GIVE THREE DIFFERENT WAYS TO DEFEAT THIS CARD. And most of those already occur in decks.
Finally: how are staple hosers different than niche cards?
it's impossible to only be a little bit of a jerk while playing Merieke. I actually ended up giving up that deck when no one would play against it any more. Not because I always won, but because when I did it wasn't fun, and even when I lost--who wants to play against their own big creatures or just have them die when I use one of my 20 untap tricks. =\.
I don't think it does. If you were already running land destruction, great, you have a way to deal with this. You were probably already worried by the fifteen other, stronger, more important lands. Leave my Cabal Coffers alone and kill this card. That's fine. One more utility land doesn't mean the sky is falling.
No. This is completely precendented. It is one card that focuses on one aspect of some decks. See Chill. See Moat. See Boil. See Flashfire. See Pyroblast. See Blood moon. See Melira, Sylvok Outcast. All of those are actually worse for specific play styles. If a single card is messing up your entire deck then it's not build right. As a casual player, you would search for answers (some of which might be land destruction, but it might also be to Confiscate the land as well). Competitively, you should be running the land destruction anyway. But don't tell me that it's unprecendented to make a card that helps players do what they want to do while severely hurting a specific play style. That's called Magic.
It is worth trying to salvage. You can do so many things to get rid of that one land. Think of it as a challenge.
To reiterate: THE SKY IS NOT FALLING. It is one card--a good, versatile, useful card--that hoses one area of the game and one play style. It will be included in most decks that can afford it. It will be something to work around. There are all kinds of options for dealing with it. One land does not promote more land destruction, especially not this one, not in the way people are thinking about it at least. It isn't a combo piece. It isn't format warping. It's a card that a subset of groups will have to consider.
Yeah, and some of the ones I've held on to suddenly jump in price and I'm all like--what?
example: goblin welders, sneak attacks, daze
it's cardboard. people like playing with it. i like playing with it. occasionally it works the other way to--about two years ago I bought a collection for $100 and it had one of each of the dual lands in it.
be happy with cards you have and if you pay a lot for one, roll with it.
so let me get this straight--you play for fun. You like to play. But you're angry because others who get to play will have to pay less than you for the same enjoyment.
You don't see it as an investment, but you're angry that card prices drop. Why? Does it make the fact you have a rishadan port any less true? You have one, so do others. The playing field is fairer now.
I hope lots of cards get reprinted from old sets for use in EDH. I hope vintage cards get reprinted so people can afford to play that as well (yes, yes, I know that won't happen). I hope that one day people will be able to have the cards that they want and not have to save their pennies day in and day out like you and I did. I want them to have as much fun as possible in a game that I enjoy as well. I feel like getting mad that someone payed less than me for a card I ALREADY HAVE FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES is asinine and vindictive.
I would feel differently if it was an investment for me. But it's not--I play to have fun.
http://magiccards.info/apac/en/8.html
...sorry if this has been asked before.
I've been out of Magic four about six or seven months. I want something fun to play for FNM, but something quirky. Winning is a good thing, obviously, but I'd like to play something that's on the rise, not something established. I have minimal ideas on what is working out there now, but do have access to most cards.
I was thinking about a UW level deck, but have a feeling that it can't be built to work all of the time.
The decks I usually play are homebrewish using solid cards. My last deck was a Knight of the Reliquary mid range. I also have a Bazaar Trader deck floating around here somewhere. Anyway, ideas would be awesome. I prefer the deck building side, but am unfamiliar with what works together right now in Magic.
Thanks!
I am actually headed to read the rest of the art of war now. I'm excited to see how I can apply it before I see the thoughts of others.
Cheers and keep up the good work.