I have built multiple decks of each Numot, the Devastator and Intet, the Dreamer, but at that point they were the only options for generals in those colors. So, I imagine that this practice is pretty common for those who played any EDH before the 2011 products. Still, I never quite warmed to Zedruu or Numot in Jeskai, and had my own issues with Shu Yun and Narset also. So, it wasn’t until the partners came out that my choices for Jeskai started to make more sense for each build.
It makes sense to have multiple decks with Kess, Dissident Mage. She’s very robust and doesn’t demand a lot of support in any particular direction. I actually built out a reanimator deck starting with Mairsil, the Pretender, and then ended up building the same concept with Kess and actually considered it an improvement. The deck still consistently builds up a solid Mairsil.
Kess is basically the spell version of Karador, Ghost Chieftain, so no surprise that others are using him in multiple builds also. Riku of Two Reflections also, he seems like he would do whatever you’d want to do with him. His spell copying ability seems similar to Kess’, more mana intensive and timing restricted but able to still repeatedly use the graveyard.
But now with the options that we have for each set of colors, I am thinking a single general would be picked to support multiple builds only if it’s both powerful and straightforward. Straightforward obviously because too specific and you would just want one deck, but powerful also because you are more likely to go for a different commander otherwise if you change concept.
Others that players might use to develop multiple decks – Zur, the Enchanter, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Sharuum the Hegemon, Animar, Soul of Elements. I think the queen of this is Atraxa, Praetors’ Voice. The Atraxa players I play with, you never know what’s going to be in their deck this time. And EDHrec seems to agree, there are a few always-run cards in Atraxa and a few strategies like infect that are hard to support elsewhere, but generally you don’t know what you’re going to get in a Bant + Black deck where the general is nearly always the best thing to do with 4 mana regardless of what you drew.
Rules disputes are the worst. I once had a player pick up their cards and walk out because they didn't understand that they couldn't Remand a Past In Flames back to their hand when it was cast for its Flashback.
Thing is though, I have never seen someone get salty over a rule that didn't benefit them. Funny thing to think if the idea is that the game is just for kicks. In the end, people will get salty to whatever they lose to, and think whatever they can stomp off of the playmat is an awesome representation of how EDH ought to be played.
The Vampire Cutthroat I think is solid in Edgar lists. The evasion will usually be active at least against one player, even if you equip it up with Heirloom Blade or similar. And the lifelink is actually great if your deck has any pumps.
One thing I will say about low-curve Edgar decks though, don’t skimp on the recursion. It is one thing to have a solid opening set of turns consistently, but the real goal is creating as many Eminence triggers as possible over the course of the game. Recursion to hand is the way to do that, e.g. Oversold Cemetery, Sword of Light and Shadow, Phyrexian Reclamation. Just draw alone typically doesn’t cut it, because realistically only half of the cards in your deck could ever be creatures, and one trigger a turn isn’t enough to rebuild into threat status at later stages anyway. I'm talking recursion to the level of Aphetto Dredging and Soul of Innistrad when you are considering retrieving creatures at such low cost at that stage of the game.
It's one of those cards that’s stuck between options on either side of it on the cheap/expensive scale. If a deck wants to get 1-2 creatures in the bin to start its game plan or to combo off, then Reanimate, Animate Dead, or Victimize are better. And if a deck is trying to go for value, then there are Rise of the Dark Realms and Living Death.
Now, Living Death is a card so powerful that you can build your entire deck around it and be happy with the result. An all-star in Sidisi, Undead Vizier. When that is your competition at 5+ mana, you are playing second fiddle. And while we’re on it, Eternal Witness, Archaeomancer, etc, synergize with every reanimation spell that hits 2 or more targets. I am not sure why Wake the Dead would be considered particularly synergistic with that.
It also suffers from a bit of a perception problem. It’s worded as a combat trick, but then also advertised in the community as being good in a setup where it can be cast repeatedly and the surprise factor is gone. So people looking for perpetual combat trick will try it and be disappointed, and people looking for mass reanimate will try it and be disappointed with the timing restriction. It’s a rare deck that wants both.
Don’t get me wrong, when you are compared to Living Death you are in pretty good company. But, it’s not irreplaceable. It’s a rare deck where it’s the absolute best card out of all options. The issue is that you are basically forcing opponents to play grave-hate with any card in that tier, and Wake the Dead doesn’t reward you proportionally with becoming the prime target in the game. Other options will win on the spot if not handled.
Nice approach to this general. Any reason you excluded Dust Elemental? It's like Stormfront Riders in that it's self-contained (No need for Flameshadow Conjuring et al), but also has flash. You need 14 mana from lands, and infinite mana right there. I find that an even mana count is an easier breakpoint to achieve with the doublers, although with 2x of them 15 mana with 5 lands is nice.
Hi everyone, I have this Neheb deck that I actually really like. The only problem is that it is usually just a tad too slow and it runs out of steam if the original set up goes to *****.
This problem usually comes from a lack of draw, but I see that you have a decent set of options there. The only ones I can think of adding are the Kozilek's, if you are consistent enough with your mana production.
Another issue might be cards that don't accelerate you or affect the board - Price Of Glory, Blood Moon, Stranglehold, so on. They are quality hate-cards for sure, but I consider hate-cards generally a luxury available only to decks with high density and solid draw options otherwise. With Mono-R being tutorless, you are basically married to your opening hand and early top decks. Two or more cards like that showing up in the same grip can be hard to draw out of.
I have to say, I would be more likely to build him than Melek, Izzet Paragon, Dragonlord Ojutai, or any more Riku of Two Reflections decks. Thinking in terms of a combat-oriented spell-slinging deck, copying pump spells, so on, with an affinity for Ponder and similar cheap draw spells for value.
Low representation does not necessarily indicate low interest, if that makes sense. It's just that there are already other "free spells" Commanders (Yidris, Narset, Maelstrom Wanderer), and Taigam has to compete with those. Since he came later, he's fighting against inertia also, on top of it already being a fight that he's ill-equipped to winning in the first place.
Simply put, what's to recommend Taigam over these other options? It can have a strong case, but if it's not a case that just jumps out to you as obvious on the face of the card, there aren't many folks who will switch.
I read an interesting article on EDH Rec about the idea of inertia (link below). Basically the conclusion from their data is that people interested in an idea will have built their decks around an available commander already, and a new commander supporting the same concept will not cause people to switch generals unless it is extremely compelling to do so.
I'm not sure the conclusion is true, but there is the rationale. My playgroup and I are certainly different than that, in that we have deep collections of staple cards that we repurpose into decks that we feel like playing that week, rather than taking one idea and making incremental tweaks. I think that my decks are among the longest-lived in the group, and I tend to dismantle them pretty quickly. I can't resist my inclination toward decks that easily snowball on tempo, and once a deck has done that once or twice, seeing it do that again is not something the table looks forward to.
But elsewhere, I do see players with stuff like an original Coldsnap printing of Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (didn't like Kresh, didn't like Prossh, didn't like Wasitora), and they are still playing stuff like Penumbra Wurm because it just came in clutch for them so many times.
Also, I have heard from the experiences of others that cards that don't work unless your opponent does something tend to make opponents feel better about them. For example, Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield are turning the tables on people for having big creatures, particularly great with Furnace of Rath effects. Also, Molten Psyche is superb with fork effects, that and cards like Sudden Impact, Vicious Shadows, etc, could be seen as just punishing players for hoarding cards.
Of course the flip side, they are prone to doing next to nothing against certain things, like Laboratory Maniac setups, or just gradual chip damage off of efficient spells and creatures. Although, I did see a Leyline of Anticipation enable a player to respond to a Mikaeus the Unhallowed-Triskelion combo with Bitter Ordeal and Temple Bell. It was not at all designed that way, but it was memorable because it was this exact thing of using another player's setup to achieve the win.
Hmm, that's really interesting! As I mentioned I recently came across Vicious Shadows, but that one I found because I was investigating ways of exploiting death triggers for my sac deck. But yeah, it does punish people for having ambitious card draw (having a "wheel" deck in the meta makes that even more tempting). Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield I came across a long time ago when I researched ways of dealing with the Gisela deck of the group, only to find that that resourceful angel got around those as well!!
Cards that my opponents make work... That sparked my interest! Any more suggestions along those lines?
Also, browse the web for "aikido EDH" and you'll get some results. That's the unofficial name I suppose for this concept, reflecting damage.
I'm curious about your remark on using those against Gisela, not sure what would make those spells not work. The ones like Backlash that care about power will be halved, but the Mirror Strike variants that prevent the damage would work. The damage from Gisela is doubled, then prevented to you for 2x, then halved from there back to 100%.
Yeah, be careful that you don't shut off his board-clearing ability with the mutual discard. With a card like Uba Mask, you enable Hellbent for the rest of the game, but you also don't ever get back cards in hand to discard to the Crackling Doom effect. I think it's a good route to go to make sure that you're always getting value out of the marginal Madness cards, it would just need a TON of draw to keep going.
I'd lean on the side of more things like Geth's Grimoire, Waste Not, or even things like Erebos, God of the Dead, Greed and Mind's Eye that are permanents on the field providing a fill up after you drop the Demon. Tutor for one before dropping him, and you can be set up for the rest of the game.
Also, anything that flickers the general, clones him, or returns him to hand Conjurer's Closet, Heat Shimmer, etc, seem like they would be strong with this general.
Also, I have heard from the experiences of others that cards that don't work unless your opponent does something tend to make opponents feel better about them. For example, Backlash and Boros Fury-Shield are turning the tables on people for having big creatures, particularly great with Furnace of Rath effects. Also, Molten Psyche is superb with fork effects, that and cards like Sudden Impact, Vicious Shadows, etc, could be seen as just punishing players for hoarding cards.
Of course the flip side, they are prone to doing next to nothing against certain things, like Laboratory Maniac setups, or just gradual chip damage off of efficient spells and creatures. Although, I did see a Leyline of Anticipation enable a player to respond to a Mikaeus the Unhallowed-Triskelion combo with Bitter Ordeal and Temple Bell. It was not at all designed that way, but it was memorable because it was this exact thing of using another player's setup to achieve the win.
But, you should probably nail down the nuances of the objective for not including "combos". And, let me know what you come up with while you're at it. Because in my mind, most players would consider those to be the actual criteria of a "combo", leading to an immediate win from an empty board.
Also, Debt to the Deathless is a combo by itself, especially when you have Cabal Coffers down. Or, so I have been told by multiple people.
And not to be forgotten, Primal Wellspring is a "combo" if the spell you cast with it kills someone. Or if you somehow kill someone with a Torment of Hailfire, that card is a combo. Or I guess in that instance, it is a "combo" with your mana producing lands.
In all sincerity, people will tell you this basically any time you build a deck capable of winning from an empty board state. Just a word of caution.
Battlecruiser, as in, don’t play anything but ramp and draw until 6+ mana, no. Battlecruiser, as in, play your 7-drop and win because nobody had an answer, sure.
To me, cards like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite would not be $15-$20 unless EDH were this battlecruiser format. But, cards like Mana Reflection and Oracle of Mul Daya would not have their value either if EDH weren’t a thing, and they are setup cards.
Can you play your battlecruisers here? Yes, if they are good. Do you still need realistic resource management, yes. They can change the starting life and multiplayer aspect, but the game still has you starting with 7 cards and drawing mana sources from your deck. By that design, mathematically, you are only about 50-50 to make your 4th land by turn 4. The figure doesn’t veer very far from that, unless you change starting hand sizes or cards drawn per turn. So, your deck needs you to help it out if you plan on playing big cards.
It makes sense to have multiple decks with Kess, Dissident Mage. She’s very robust and doesn’t demand a lot of support in any particular direction. I actually built out a reanimator deck starting with Mairsil, the Pretender, and then ended up building the same concept with Kess and actually considered it an improvement. The deck still consistently builds up a solid Mairsil.
Kess is basically the spell version of Karador, Ghost Chieftain, so no surprise that others are using him in multiple builds also. Riku of Two Reflections also, he seems like he would do whatever you’d want to do with him. His spell copying ability seems similar to Kess’, more mana intensive and timing restricted but able to still repeatedly use the graveyard.
But now with the options that we have for each set of colors, I am thinking a single general would be picked to support multiple builds only if it’s both powerful and straightforward. Straightforward obviously because too specific and you would just want one deck, but powerful also because you are more likely to go for a different commander otherwise if you change concept.
Others that players might use to develop multiple decks – Zur, the Enchanter, Derevi, Empyrial Tactician, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, Sharuum the Hegemon, Animar, Soul of Elements. I think the queen of this is Atraxa, Praetors’ Voice. The Atraxa players I play with, you never know what’s going to be in their deck this time. And EDHrec seems to agree, there are a few always-run cards in Atraxa and a few strategies like infect that are hard to support elsewhere, but generally you don’t know what you’re going to get in a Bant + Black deck where the general is nearly always the best thing to do with 4 mana regardless of what you drew.
Thing is though, I have never seen someone get salty over a rule that didn't benefit them. Funny thing to think if the idea is that the game is just for kicks. In the end, people will get salty to whatever they lose to, and think whatever they can stomp off of the playmat is an awesome representation of how EDH ought to be played.
Wise man once said - "Let the Wookie win."
Maybe a Basilisk Collar for your equipment package to go along with your pingers? Seeing as how you included them anyway, might be worth a shot.
One thing I will say about low-curve Edgar decks though, don’t skimp on the recursion. It is one thing to have a solid opening set of turns consistently, but the real goal is creating as many Eminence triggers as possible over the course of the game. Recursion to hand is the way to do that, e.g. Oversold Cemetery, Sword of Light and Shadow, Phyrexian Reclamation. Just draw alone typically doesn’t cut it, because realistically only half of the cards in your deck could ever be creatures, and one trigger a turn isn’t enough to rebuild into threat status at later stages anyway. I'm talking recursion to the level of Aphetto Dredging and Soul of Innistrad when you are considering retrieving creatures at such low cost at that stage of the game.
Now, Living Death is a card so powerful that you can build your entire deck around it and be happy with the result. An all-star in Sidisi, Undead Vizier. When that is your competition at 5+ mana, you are playing second fiddle. And while we’re on it, Eternal Witness, Archaeomancer, etc, synergize with every reanimation spell that hits 2 or more targets. I am not sure why Wake the Dead would be considered particularly synergistic with that.
It also suffers from a bit of a perception problem. It’s worded as a combat trick, but then also advertised in the community as being good in a setup where it can be cast repeatedly and the surprise factor is gone. So people looking for perpetual combat trick will try it and be disappointed, and people looking for mass reanimate will try it and be disappointed with the timing restriction. It’s a rare deck that wants both.
Don’t get me wrong, when you are compared to Living Death you are in pretty good company. But, it’s not irreplaceable. It’s a rare deck where it’s the absolute best card out of all options. The issue is that you are basically forcing opponents to play grave-hate with any card in that tier, and Wake the Dead doesn’t reward you proportionally with becoming the prime target in the game. Other options will win on the spot if not handled.
This problem usually comes from a lack of draw, but I see that you have a decent set of options there. The only ones I can think of adding are the Kozilek's, if you are consistent enough with your mana production.
Another issue might be cards that don't accelerate you or affect the board - Price Of Glory, Blood Moon, Stranglehold, so on. They are quality hate-cards for sure, but I consider hate-cards generally a luxury available only to decks with high density and solid draw options otherwise. With Mono-R being tutorless, you are basically married to your opening hand and early top decks. Two or more cards like that showing up in the same grip can be hard to draw out of.
I have to say, I would be more likely to build him than Melek, Izzet Paragon, Dragonlord Ojutai, or any more Riku of Two Reflections decks. Thinking in terms of a combat-oriented spell-slinging deck, copying pump spells, so on, with an affinity for Ponder and similar cheap draw spells for value.
But, I am less likely to go with Taigam than just continuing with Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder, Kess, Dissident Mage or Bruna, Light of Alabaster if I really want White. They've just proven themselves as too effective at doing similar things.
I suppose the one card that I would play with Taigam that I couldn't with the others is Dovescape. I'm not that keen on doing that, though.
Simply put, what's to recommend Taigam over these other options? It can have a strong case, but if it's not a case that just jumps out to you as obvious on the face of the card, there aren't many folks who will switch.
I read an interesting article on EDH Rec about the idea of inertia (link below). Basically the conclusion from their data is that people interested in an idea will have built their decks around an available commander already, and a new commander supporting the same concept will not cause people to switch generals unless it is extremely compelling to do so.
I'm not sure the conclusion is true, but there is the rationale. My playgroup and I are certainly different than that, in that we have deep collections of staple cards that we repurpose into decks that we feel like playing that week, rather than taking one idea and making incremental tweaks. I think that my decks are among the longest-lived in the group, and I tend to dismantle them pretty quickly. I can't resist my inclination toward decks that easily snowball on tempo, and once a deck has done that once or twice, seeing it do that again is not something the table looks forward to.
But elsewhere, I do see players with stuff like an original Coldsnap printing of Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (didn't like Kresh, didn't like Prossh, didn't like Wasitora), and they are still playing stuff like Penumbra Wurm because it just came in clutch for them so many times.
http://articles.edhrec.com/commander-showdown-vona-vs-ayli-vs-karlov/
I would read through the retired primer for Tariel, Reckoner of Souls from Rachmiel - http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/490546-tariel-youll-thank-me-for-this
Also, browse the web for "aikido EDH" and you'll get some results. That's the unofficial name I suppose for this concept, reflecting damage.
I'm curious about your remark on using those against Gisela, not sure what would make those spells not work. The ones like Backlash that care about power will be halved, but the Mirror Strike variants that prevent the damage would work. The damage from Gisela is doubled, then prevented to you for 2x, then halved from there back to 100%.
I'd lean on the side of more things like Geth's Grimoire, Waste Not, or even things like Erebos, God of the Dead, Greed and Mind's Eye that are permanents on the field providing a fill up after you drop the Demon. Tutor for one before dropping him, and you can be set up for the rest of the game.
Also, anything that flickers the general, clones him, or returns him to hand Conjurer's Closet, Heat Shimmer, etc, seem like they would be strong with this general.
A favorite of mine that I have seen once or twice is False Cure. And, Parallectric Feedback is one that I have been wanting to see end a game since Torment of Hailfire started seeing play alongside Exsanguinate.
Of course the flip side, they are prone to doing next to nothing against certain things, like Laboratory Maniac setups, or just gradual chip damage off of efficient spells and creatures. Although, I did see a Leyline of Anticipation enable a player to respond to a Mikaeus the Unhallowed-Triskelion combo with Bitter Ordeal and Temple Bell. It was not at all designed that way, but it was memorable because it was this exact thing of using another player's setup to achieve the win.
The good ol' Tooth and Nail into Craterhoof Behemoth and Avenger of Zendikar fits this criteria. Sudden, not a 'combo', can happen from an empty board.
But, you should probably nail down the nuances of the objective for not including "combos". And, let me know what you come up with while you're at it. Because in my mind, most players would consider those to be the actual criteria of a "combo", leading to an immediate win from an empty board.
I have had multiple times players tell me that using Pyromancer's Goggles with Increasing Vengeance is a "combo", because it killed them with something like Molten Psyche or Fiery Confluence. Far be it if you untap your Goggles with something like Voltaic Key, because from that setup even a Comet Storm is ridiculous.
Also, Debt to the Deathless is a combo by itself, especially when you have Cabal Coffers down. Or, so I have been told by multiple people.
And not to be forgotten, Primal Wellspring is a "combo" if the spell you cast with it kills someone. Or if you somehow kill someone with a Torment of Hailfire, that card is a combo. Or I guess in that instance, it is a "combo" with your mana producing lands.
In all sincerity, people will tell you this basically any time you build a deck capable of winning from an empty board state. Just a word of caution.
So, your position is that Shahrazad, Top, Eggs, are banned so that we can see a wider diversity of decks?
....?
To me, cards like Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite would not be $15-$20 unless EDH were this battlecruiser format. But, cards like Mana Reflection and Oracle of Mul Daya would not have their value either if EDH weren’t a thing, and they are setup cards.
Can you play your battlecruisers here? Yes, if they are good. Do you still need realistic resource management, yes. They can change the starting life and multiplayer aspect, but the game still has you starting with 7 cards and drawing mana sources from your deck. By that design, mathematically, you are only about 50-50 to make your 4th land by turn 4. The figure doesn’t veer very far from that, unless you change starting hand sizes or cards drawn per turn. So, your deck needs you to help it out if you plan on playing big cards.