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  • posted a message on [[Official]] Discussion of the Official Banlist
    Quote from Cheethorne
    Quote from Jusstice
    The main advantage is administration.


    From your description I would think that you're saying that the main advantage is that it "fixes" the format in a way that you don't think the RC is going to do, thus partially removing them from the equation.

    And that's fine as far as it goes, but even if I think more cards should be banned, I would think that banning them individually is the better way to go than a blanket adoption of the Legacy banned list. There are just too many cards on it that don't need to be there and since the RC still has to ban cards on top of that list, that seems like it would be just as unwieldy. I mean, its not like most people that understand the format can't quickly list off the worst of the fast mana cards. If we wanted to ban them, than just ban them, but the RC is not really interested in making a balanced format, for better or worse, which is often very frustrating for people.


    Well, it wouldn't have to be unwieldy, it's only that the RC is more or less refusing to look at balance issues. If they could look at a card like Frantic Search and make the determination that's it's not a problem the way it is in Legacy, then fine. But they are not even taking the fact of cards being banned in Eternal formats as a cue that they should be looking at it in the first place. So fast mana, <2 cmc tutors, and busted CA engines like Necropotence and Survival aren't drawing any more eyes, despite having been called out as broken by competition committees that actually look at balance.

    Meanwhile, it's hard to say that the current regime isn't itself at least at this level of unwieldy, anyway. Stuff like Protean Hulk, Metalworker, Balance are just different looking bans that the recent roll-out of Sylvan, Prime Time, G-brand, and Sundering Titan. Whether the dates make sense to some or not, their time on the Legacy banlist did precede their bans in EDH. And it's hard to have any real, independent criteria for a ban like Metalworker or Balance, which just like the Mind's Desire combo pieces, are not game-breaking at all outside of 60 card, 4 max.

    So essentially, there is already some evidence that the RC did at one point take cues from the Legacy bans. That itself has already created this incongruity. But somewhere along the line, the RC decided that basically any deck winning before 10 could be considered unsporting, looked at what needed to be banned to make that happen, then abandoned whatever inclination they had to look at other formats. Wrong decision, imo.

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Basic/Nonbasic Land Count for Back to Basics
    I've run it before in tri-color. So definitely any mono-color can work it. If even Wildfire effects are good, B2B is way better than those. Is this single or multi?
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Does banning fast mana make for better games?
    Quote from Donald
    Quote from Jusstice

    This is pretty interesting, and I think I agree. Even thinking as casual as possible, I am a lot more loathe to give up on a huge 6-drop density if I have a Sol Ring and a Mana Crypt in my deck. With ramp that busted, there's not as much reason to run a trim curve, because really, you are going to be over-budget on mana when you do draw Sol Ring unless you have some giant things. You can be sitting there with a near empty hand on Turn 4 if your average CMC is less than 3, because you're playing 2 spells a turn from Turn 2. At that point, you'd rather have a Rampaging Baloths than a few 4/4's at 3 mana. Or worse, you're wiping lands on Turn 3 because your deck's over budget with just one of these rocks.

    Even adding Mana Vault you still don't have enough broken ramp to run 6 drop.dec simply because you don't have enough of it in your deck to be consistent. I tend to play low curve decks and these cards are still fantastic because they let me vomit my hand before I refuel with a draw spell and are just generally broken on just about any turn if you have a deck full of tutors and wheels.


    Well, there are plenty of high-powered cards at 3cmc and less, it's just that they're not Timmy creature-style cards. On those, there's a pretty steep incline in power as you go from 3cmc to 6. Take a creature like Loxodon Smiter, which is considered efficient in this game for 3cmc but generally won't be played in EDH. You can get something like Hound of Griselbrand for 1 more mana, and at 6 mana you can get a steady stream of 4/4's with something like Rampaging Baloths or Sun Titan. Most of the playable 3cmc creatures are ramp, draw, or other such cards. Even Goyf and TNN are not played in EDH. That's the difference of a Sol Ring. But in non-creature slots, you've got Demonic Tutor versus Diabolic, and generally just a lot better stuff for this format in non-creatures. So even decks with low curves, they are mostly gas, mostly pointed at trying to access stuff like Sol Ring more quickly in the event that they have any kind of creature-based win condition.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Does banning fast mana make for better games?
    Quote from Golden
    Yep. I actually think the primary upside of banning ramp would be the return of more interaction in turns 1-3, which is often lacking in EDH where those turns are spent ramping or setting up. Playing early game action that isn't either ramp/draw/stax often feels like a mistake in EDH. Take away some ramp and I think that changes, as you don't stand to see your 1-3 drops get outclassed so quickly and reliably.


    This is pretty interesting, and I think I agree. Even thinking as casual as possible, I am a lot more loathe to give up on a huge 6-drop density if I have a Sol Ring and a Mana Crypt in my deck. With ramp that busted, there's not as much reason to run a trim curve, because really, you are going to be over-budget on mana when you do draw Sol Ring unless you have some giant things. You can be sitting there with a near empty hand on Turn 4 if your average CMC is less than 3, because you're playing 2 spells a turn from Turn 2. At that point, you'd rather have a Rampaging Baloths than a few 4/4's at 3 mana. Or worse, you're wiping lands on Turn 3 because your deck's over budget with just one of these rocks.

    People think that banning artifact mana would put Green even more ahead a a ramp color, but I'm not so sure. Green runs these mana rocks itself anyway, and is even running a higher curve than it otherwise would because it has access to them.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Discussion of the Official Banlist
    Quote from Fedders
    Jusstice's approach seems the easiest way to resolve some issues. Yes you lose a few cards that have no reason to be banned, but then administering the banlist is just so much easier. And you can still have things like Griselbrand, PT, SP, Biorhythm banned. Out go all the 1-2 CMC hard tutors and fast mana rocks. Seems real easy to implement. The RC should announce it for a test run.


    Basically this.

    I get that 60 card 4-max produces problem cards that are not problems in 99-singleton. I also get that some cards like PT cause problems with "fun" in EDH rather than competition, and those should be banned as well. I wasn't suggesting that EDH bans be limited to Legacy bans, only include the Legacy bans. Essentially, it would start there but not end there.

    The main advantage is administration. Some guy in Alaska who only plays creature-ball decks might think that Mystical Tutor is a silly card, and not ban-worthy at all. It would be great if that creature-ball player had an idea of what play was like in other groups. But good sense being such a rare quality, and one that human beings have always found more or less impossible to transfer, you really don't want to have to engage with that guy about why Mystical Tutor is busted. Just on the last page, Memory Jar was discussed between two well-meaning, experienced players with a different opinion on how unbalancing the card was. There will probably also be holdouts on cards like Necropotence and Survival of the Fittest. But if a categorical ban is overbroad and gets a card like Frantic Search, sure, most people consider it just fine, but banning it is just a price you have to pay for the efficiency of taking Legacy bans as a whole. Honestly, all of these cards that are banned in Legacy but obviously not broken in EDH are not very widely played, and are often even suboptimal. So, there would be no huge outcry if something like Black Vise dropped out of the format. I think the efficiency there is worth it, because despite the incongruity, at least the competition committee for Legacy is actually interested in policing the format of delinquent, unbalancing cards. The RC is overtly committed to avoiding that. So, we are left with a Vintage minus Power-9 baseline that's not suitable at all for a balanced format, even if people are trying in good faith to strategize against one another.

    A Legacy baseline just makes more sense for a "Casual" or "Social" format, anyway. If it's too cutthroat or powerful to be allowed in a fast-paced, combo-rich Legacy format, who's going to see the same card as sporting and fun in Casual?

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Discussion of the Official Banlist
    Quote from cryogen
    Quote from Jusstice
    Quote from Titanscross

    So you are saying that cards like Falling Star and Flash are unhealthy for the format while cards like Worldfire and Karakas would be good for it? Commander definitely need its own ban list.




    Ok, I guess I didn't make it back in time for all the affirming the consequent fallacies.

    What I said was that EDH should adopt the Legacy bans and Vintage restrictions. I didn't say that EDH should stop making its own bans in addition to those.

    Quote from cryogen


    Lastly, let's just nix this mentality of using the Legacy ban list. They are two TOTALLY different formats. If you disagree, then please explain to me how Black Vise, Frantic Search, Gush, Memory Jar, Mental Misstep, Mind's Desire, Strip Mine, Wheel of Fortune, and Windfall are breaking games, ignoring some of the more borderline cards I could also name.



    As for those cards banned in Legacy because of a specific deck (Frantic Search, Black Vise, Mind's Desire...), I think people should learn not to miss them. That's exactly what I mean when I advocate the Legacy banlist, that if a card is illegal or restricted in any other eternal format, the presumption should be that it's not going to be played in Casual. Instead, the presumption seems to be that Timmy gets to play with what Timmy wants, as long as it's not a 6-7 drop with an overly powerful ETB effect that people get tired of. But I have no idea who this guy is who can't play EDH without Black Vise or Frantic Search. So I have no idea why the rest of us would need to stage a debate challenging the hypothetical presumption of non-legality for Legacy banned cards if that player doesn't exist.

    Case in point, we seem to disagree about Memory Jar, for one. Goblin Welder does exist in this format, but otherwise as a 1-sided wheel effect also, it's a busted card that I've had to force myself not to play. Instead of having a town hall debate about every candidate banned in Legacy that people want legal in EDH, the presumption of illegality would do everyone just fine. After all, administrative inefficiency is part of the reason the RC stopped trying to balance the format for any games other than those between 7-drop decks. It's too hard for us to find the busted cards, so the only alternative is for everyone to just police yourselves, *wink wink*, and so on.

    I can certainly think of a lot of cards that are just fine, but I can't see any compelling argument for why any card banned in Legacy just NEEDS to be played in a casual format.


    But you still haven't answered my question. How are the cards I listed breaking games? I mean, that's the criteria used for banning a card. So if they are so powerful that they have to get banned in Legacy, surely you can name at least one deck where Mental Misstep is a powerhouse.


    Breaking games being the criteria, first, let me be the contrarian this time and say, no. A true RC lemming would know that "power level" is not a criteria.

    Even if it were though, I guess where we lose each other is that I'm proposing a new criteria. That criteria would be that if it's on the Legacy banlist or Vintage restricted, then it's banned in EDH. That's the criteria. Ovebroad, maybe. But easy to administer.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    I don't know, the decks I play on Modo either already have a response for Prophet on board by the time it's played, or don't care at all about Prophet. Even with Prophet and a draw engine, the player still probably has 2-3 turns before they have lethal against one player on board. And for example in my Skittles deck, I either have lethal with evasion on board at that time, or I've already lost. Like whenever it plays against Deveri at all, it's already lost to the tapdown ability if I can't get protections on it. And even otherwise, that deck is not very good in an area with so many midrange decks out there. Just Mind Twist the UG player for max, then hope no one else has answers. Nothing to do with Prophet. It might as well be a Reanimated Woodfall Primus, that just gives me a few more turns of drawing really thin.

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on What is the U.S.A's Potential?
    If you are going to define "potential", then you have to have a goal. It should also be a clearly valuable goal if debate is going to get any traction.

    A Utopia in terms of standards of living and quality of life, taken at average? That's not an objective that everyone agrees on. The first question to answer is whether we should value the quality of life of the average person more than we currently do. Statistics on wealth distribution indicate we don't value that. Some disparity of wealth distribution could be attributed to ineffectiveness of policy whose intent was to help the average person, but it wouldn't explain the huge shortfall we actually see. The only real explanation is that we aren't trying to bring about higher quality of life through policy, and instead we're trying to bring about other things.

    But we certainly have kept stock values high, and made sure that whoever was rich in 1990 was even more rich in 2010. Not your 2nd grade teacher's America, but it's America working as intended. A place where people come and go for one reason through all of history - to make money.
    Posted in: Debate
  • posted a message on [Offtopic] Community Thread
    I don't know, I still think that if a game lets you play out Azami and enough creatures to let her draw 3-4 cards per turn, then resolve Prophet on top of that, that table all deserves to lose. How objectively strong that is, I'm not sure. I just know it's not oppressively strong relative to decks with answers. And I don't feel any loyalty to allow players who run decks without either any answers or win conditions to take games.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Discussion of the Official Banlist
    Quote from Titanscross

    So you are saying that cards like Falling Star and Flash are unhealthy for the format while cards like Worldfire and Karakas would be good for it? Commander definitely need its own ban list.




    Ok, I guess I didn't make it back in time for all the affirming the consequent fallacies.

    What I said was that EDH should adopt the Legacy bans and Vintage restrictions. I didn't say that EDH should stop making its own bans in addition to those.

    Quote from cryogen


    Lastly, let's just nix this mentality of using the Legacy ban list. They are two TOTALLY different formats. If you disagree, then please explain to me how Black Vise, Frantic Search, Gush, Memory Jar, Mental Misstep, Mind's Desire, Strip Mine, Wheel of Fortune, and Windfall are breaking games, ignoring some of the more borderline cards I could also name.



    As for those cards banned in Legacy because of a specific deck (Frantic Search, Black Vise, Mind's Desire...), I think people should learn not to miss them. That's exactly what I mean when I advocate the Legacy banlist, that if a card is illegal or restricted in any other eternal format, the presumption should be that it's not going to be played in Casual. Instead, the presumption seems to be that Timmy gets to play with what Timmy wants, as long as it's not a 6-7 drop with an overly powerful ETB effect that people get tired of. But I have no idea who this guy is who can't play EDH without Black Vise or Frantic Search. So I have no idea why the rest of us would need to stage a debate challenging the hypothetical presumption of non-legality for Legacy banned cards if that player doesn't exist.

    Case in point, we seem to disagree about Memory Jar, for one. Goblin Welder does exist in this format, but otherwise as a 1-sided wheel effect also, it's a busted card that I've had to force myself not to play. Instead of having a town hall debate about every candidate banned in Legacy that people want legal in EDH, the presumption of illegality would do everyone just fine. After all, administrative inefficiency is part of the reason the RC stopped trying to balance the format for any games other than those between 7-drop decks. It's too hard for us to find the busted cards, so the only alternative is for everyone to just police yourselves, *wink wink*, and so on.

    I can certainly think of a lot of cards that are just fine, but I can't see any compelling argument for why any card banned in Legacy just NEEDS to be played in a casual format.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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