None. If your deck is fun and creative and if you're sociable and respectful, I don't care what deck you play and which cards you play with.
I'm a strong proponent of responsibility in EDH. Know when to throw haymakers and know when to pull your punches. Understand broken cards and interactions and how they can negatively affect the "fun and flow" of a game. Respect the social contract and realize that everyone's fun is everybody's responsibility.
Very well put. I would also like to add to this that there would be less complaining if people play with less inferior cards. There is an answer to every combo or card:cool2:.
I got 2nd out of 53 players that register to play. On this day I decided to drop a submerge for a kitchen finks as I saw a lot of red decks that was gearing up before the tournament, 7 total. Everything was represented: red deck wins, ANT and storm, elves combo, pattern rebirth with hulk, zoo, rug tempo, captain america, pox (made top 8), white stax, forge combo with goblin welder(made top), merfolk, charbelcher, death and taxes, bant, and gw maverick (made top 8); so the field was pretty diverse.
Throughout the tournament I was able to dodge all the red deck wins (a bad matchup), storm combo (slightly bad matchup), and elves (very bad matchup).
I didn't take notes and the following tournament report is coming off memory.
Round 1: (1-0)Bye - Lucky day for me as I was driving from the central valley to Hollywood area to play.
Round 2: (2-0) U/W stoneforge
Game 1: Turn one hierarch for me, land go for opponent. I turn 2 goyf and he turn 2 SFM and tutors for batterskull. On turn three I pass the turn. He activates SFM and in response i vendy clique him, taking the batterskull. He swords the clique and plays JtMS on his turn bouncing goyf. EOT I bolt his Jace. My turn I play my own JtMS and fateseal him, leaving flooded strand on top. His turn he plays his second SFM and tutors for sword of feast and famine. On my turn I remember playing natural order for Proggy. and fateseal him again. On his following turn he attacks with equip SFM on Sword of Feast and Famine. I ended up discarding punishing fire. He concedes as he was on 11 and I have grove in play.
Game 2: Don't remember much on this game but I remembering mulling into 6 and won.
Round 3: (2-1) fast zoo with goblin guide
game 1: He comes out too fast and I die a quick death. Did not see any burn in this game.
Game 2: I was able to stabilize on low life. I remember I had to natural order into a kitchen finks to bring life up. The following turn I natural order finks into scavenging ooze. I was too low on life to grab proggy...Again this match only saw one bolt.:-/
Round 4: (3-1) UR delver burn deck
game 1: A resolve NO for proggy seals the deal on turn 6.
game 2: don't remember much from this match but I was able to take it.
Round 5: (4-1) White Stax
game 1: Proggy steals the game on turn 4 after goyf and bolt does early damage.
Game 2: This was an epic match. He double wrath my board back to back. First one was on goyf and noble, second was on proggy. I had to bait him since I figure he was holding wrath but I wasn't expecting double wrath. I ended up with all three of my basics in play and a noble to his crucible with wasteland lock and horizon canopy and fresh chalice on one and him at three life, early beats plus him shocking himself from ancient tomb. I thought it was over but in the course of three turns I drew into ancient grudge, ancient grudge, and bolt with no cards in hand. He had horizon canopy going with crucible going but was not drawing into business spells.
Round 6 (4-1-1) ID with POX
We both got in. I was 4 and he, 6, in standings. So in calculating we was going to get in for sure.
TOP 8
Quarter finals: (5-1-1) forge combo with goblin welder
Game 1: I counter his grim monolith and ride goyf and vendy clique to victory. He was unable to do anything after this.
Game 2: He starts off fast and a mull to six doesn't work so well. He had three grim monolith! I counter the first one played on city of traitor turn one. He plays two grim monolith on turn 2 and another city of traitor into wurmcoil engine and I concede.
Game 3: I play turn one noble and he plays land pass. I play turn 2 noble and another land and pass. He turn 2 trinisphere and i left it resolve, I had a jace and force in hand. I figure if I land Jace i will win. I play Jace and fateseal away a wasteland to the bottom. I follow that up with Vendy clique leaving him with his hand, three cards which I do not remember. I eventually get there with jace and Vendy clique.
Semi-Finals: (6-1-1) Reanimator
Game 1: I had double force and vendy back to win. I remember countering his entomb and careful study. He was never able to put anything into the grave yard and I take game one.
Game 2: I kept my opening hand and I remember he had to mull. He might of kept a sketchy hand as he was not able to do much. I GSZ for ooze on turn 2. He plays a pithing needle, naming the ooze. I counter his ponder and brainstorm as i felt he was digging. I eventually ride ooze with double exalted trigger to victory.
Finals: (6-2-1) Reanimator
Game 1: I lost to a reanimated sphinx.
Game 2: I mull and kept my six. I turn two ooze. He turn 2 duress my GSZ away, seeing my hand of volcanic island and double clique. I turn three clique him and brainstorms on his draw step. I see his hand and remove entomb as he would have been able to entomb and and reanimate; I was tapped out with no green to activate ooze. I then suspect he hid show and tell on the top. I attack on my turn 4 and pass. I vendy him again losing both of my clique and do see a show and tell. I send it to the bottom. I was able to ride ooze to victory. He did resolve show and tell in this game as he later drew into it, I had drawn Proggy also.
game 3: This one was so close. I vendy cliqued him and sent show and tell to the bottom. I got him down to 8 life with gofy beats. I know he has daze in play and I only have four mana available. I GSZ for ooze and he dazes me. I needed one green mana up so I can remove what ever he bins into his graveyard and my only hope was that he misplays his daze, which he doesn't. He dazes me and I ended up paying. He careful study the following turn and animate dead blazing archan. I had 4 turns to draw into a jace, which i didn't and ended up losing.
This was a great tournament and wished I had taken better notes. It's getting late and I'll update with how I feel about this deck tomorrow or later on this week.
NO RUG was my favourite deck during misstep era but i switched to stifle decks after losing couple times vs ANT during Amsterdam qualifiers.
I tried Fire-Grove but it ruined my manabase. I guess for you its ok since you run more lands
Isn`t 4 Tarmogoyf quite too many? There are Delver flying above around and tarmogoyf is just a creature. With your extra lands i would play more maindeck Jace.
I do agree with you that this deck is bad against ANT but it has positive matchups against everything else. It, however, does lose to combo elves no matter what we do. After the tournament a buddy and I was testing against elves and there is practically no way to win. NO RUG was always a turn too short. I had the burn grove combo going killing all his elves and he was still able to combo off. I was not testing or playing bad either. Elves are just to resilient IMO. I even tried the chalices and they work to no avail. Against ANT or Perfect Storm, I have tried a single teeg in the side..:DIt has been working perfectly. A resolve teeg from a green sun on game two almost guarantees a win. This changes the game dynamically because your opponent now must keep hands they would not have kept on game three, and they are way under more pressure because once we hit three mana, we can GSZ for teeg at anytime.
4 Tarmogoyf is not too many; although I have been contemplating about cutting one goyf for the fourth vendy but decided not too. The only bad match when playing gofy are decks that have KoTR. The are decent against blade decks, hold down the fort against zoo and merfolk, and provide pressure against combo deck. It is true that delver flies over but he can be dealt with. With the amount of burn this deck has, 7 with repeatable burn + 3 more REB from the side, I hardly see delver as a problem. Again the problem with tempo will come down to who has more goyfs.
Jace are only good against control, bant, and decent against reanimator. The way the meta is shaping one main and one side board seems to be working alright for me. There are too many bolts, vendy cliques, and snapcasters to warrant more than 2 jaces. I just feel when casting a 4cc spell, it has to win me the game. Natural order does this quite well.:cool2:
How relevent was the Punishing Fire/Burnwillows for you?
With the current meta this combo is very relevant. So far the meta seems to be tempo decks, gw maverick, bant, and stoneblade decks. Think of what punishing fire can kill in each of those decks; basically everything that is not a KoTR or a goyf. Merfolk and goblins is practically a buy. It is a repeatable card advantage engine that is almost hard to stop game one. I highly advise this combo over what this replaced, grim lavamancer.
I will be taking this to a couple of tournaments this weekend changing nothing but the sideboard. I originally advocated the chalices, specifically for elves, ant, and storm, but testing shows they are no good. NO RUG cannot beat combo Elves at all, so there is no need to find sideboard room. A singleton Teeg added to the sideboard is all we need against ant and storm. This increases our game against them tremendously. The current sideboard is below. I will report on how I did. Wish me luck!:)
Round 1 (1-0): Vs David with Smokestack, crucible world lock
Game 1: Turn 3 Progenitus earned a concession
Game 2: Turn 4 Progenitus earned a concession
Round 2 (2-0): Vs. Rasmus with black white with Dark Confidant.
Game 1: Turn 4 Progenitus gets a concession. I didn't get to see what was in his deck to find out.
Game 2: Turn 3 Vendy, Turn 4 Jace the Mindsculptor, follow by turn 5 Thurn after I Vendy clique one of his vindicates away got the job done.
Round 3 (3-0): Vs Berd with Dredge
Game 1: I got ran over by ichorids and zombies.:-/
Game 2: He goes turn on Firestorm discarding a grave troll. He goes crazy with dredging into one bridge and multiple dredgers in his graveyard plus 1 ichorid. I turn three green sun for Scavenger Ooze and hope he doesn't kill me on his next draw step. He dredge into more dredger and two more ichorid with one Narcomeba. I untap eat his only bridge and surgical extraction his ichorids and slowly eat away his graveyard.
Game 3: He goes turn one putrid imp. I play an misty rainforest. His turn he dredge golgari thug that he discarded on my end step. He misses. I crack the misty rainforest to brainstorm on his end step and find a surgical. I play my scavenging ooze that I open with. He dredge into a nacromeba again. Hard cast another nacromeba and attempts to flashback dread return. I respond by surgical extracting his bridges and he concedes.
Round 4 (4-0): vs Seraj with Merfolk
Game 1: He runs me over with 3 Lords and a kira in play.
Game 2: I had multiple bolts and punishing fire going. He wasn't able to play through it. I took it down with Goyf beats.
Game 3: He goes turn 1 Vial of mutavault; I force. Turn 2 vial again playing another mutavault. I draw into ancient grudge, play my mountain, ancient grudge his Vial. He plays wasteland. I play a misty rainforest, tap forest and mountain to play Goyf and pass the turn. He plays another wasteland. I attack with Goyf and play another one and he concedes after drawing no blue mana.
Round 5 (5-0): vs Jose with Merfolk
Game 1: He runs me over with island walk merfolk:-/
Game 2: Epic battle but i eventually get there with one creature in play, scavenging ooze, 2 groove of the burn willows, 3 volcanic island, 1 mountain, and 1 forest in play to his 2 mutavaults, 2 silvergill adept, 1 jitte with no counter since he wasn't able to equip without getting punishing fire, and an vial on 3. I slowing burned his board and dudes in the grave yard and win on 2 life.
Game 3: I had a very nice hand that was hard for merfolk to deal with. Multiple burn and punishing fire combo. He was never really into it.
Round 6 (5-1): Vs Alex Bertoncini (bant) I was unable to draw since I got paired down.
Game 1: I was never into it. He land Elspeth and it was over in short order. I had two turns before the game was out the way. I had three lands and one of them a Dryad. I drew natural order the following turn, which i had one in my hand already. The following turn I drew Progenitus...:-/ sad times. Had I drew my fourth land I would of had him game one. He had no cards in had besides Elspeth, soldier token, noble, plus lands on the field.
Game 2: I was never in it. He vendy clique my thrun away. Plays an espleth the following turn. I try to double bolt it but he had a force ready for the last one. Lost...
Round 7 (5-2): Vs Noah (combo elves) I should have drew with him, if I did we would have both made it. I miscalculated the possible points.
Game 1: He comboed off on turn 4.
Game 2: I had burn and multiple burn for his elves but his two relics shrink my goyfs and he eventually combos off, since i was unable to race him. I thought I had game 2 with all the burn but relics got me.
I also didn't really test against elves since I wasn't expecting any at Worlds.
After all this I ended up in 10 place out of 91 or 92 participants with 15 points. People who made top 8 was Noah at 18, 2 other players at 17, 5 16 pointers which included the two merfolk guys I beat and Alex B; they all drew in. If I had calculated the points correctly, my tie breakers would have gotten me in. I'm kicking myself for this!!! Now I get no italian legends booster packs.
Overall the deck was solid. No one was prepared for a turn 3 or 4 Proggy. 21 lands is perfect with at least 3 basic with all these stifle and wasteland floating around. These are the first lands I fetch to avoid wasteland. Punishing fire was awesome, probably better than grim lavamancers. The life in the side was awesome as I seem to board it in against every deck with wasteland to ensure my punishing fire combo. Thrun and Ooze was mvp. In testing, before I went, I wanted a second spell pierce since I always boarded it in. I should have cut a submerge. Probably needed another surgical extraction for graveyard hate since I got really lucky playing against dredge. Maybe -1 submerge +1 one surgical extraction. Don't write off NO RUG yet.
***added below***
Sideboard plan:
Against any bant type deck where I only see stoneforge mystic and KoTR as the only beaters
On the draw
-4 tarmogoyf
-3 Green sun zenith
-1 daze
-1 force
+1 jace the mindsculptor
+1 thrun
+3 submerge
+2 ancient grudge
+1 spell pierce
+1 life from the loam
On the play
The only difference is – 2 force of will and add +1 daze
The plan is to go full control/combo since they will board in more removal for your tarmogoyf. You want to blank as much of their removal (most will add anywhere from 2-4 path to exile) as possible. Your Thruns can hold down the fort along with Dryad if you have life from Knights until you combo. They will most likely board out their forces. You must play around their spell pierces as they may bring them in. KoTR and Elspeth is our only real problem so try to save a submerge (when they fetch submerge their knight) and burn for each respectively.
Vs Merfolk
On the draw
-2 vendilion clique
-1 Progenitus
-4 natural order
-1 Jace the Mind sculptor
+4 REB
+1 Life from the loam
+2 ancient grudge
+1 spell pierce
On the play
The only difference is -1 force of will + 1 vendilion clique
Merfolk is a lot harder than what this forums make it to be. Game one is usually theirs if we do not find enough removal for the Lord of Atlantis. Must counters are silver gill adept since it generates card advantage for them, counter them at all cost and keep the game one for one unless you had to force it. Save burn for Lord of Atlantis and you should be fine. If they land kira it becomes a lot harder for us, so try to counter it.
Vs Dredge
On the draw and on the play
-4 Natural order
-1 Jace the mind sculptor
-1 Progenitus
+3 REB
+2 Surgical extractions
+1 spell pierce
We would have to counter all their draw spells and discard outlets. REB are for their nacromebas, break through, and careful study. Save your extractions for their bridges or ichorids depending on the situation. Try to get Scavenger online asap.
Vs Heavy removal deck (team America type deck) or control with alot of removal
I would board out the gofys and bring in 1 thrun, 1 JtMS, 1 spell pierce, and 1 Life from the loam. Again try to blank all their removal and play the control roll and combo off or beat them with Jace while holding down the fort with Thrun.
Vs RUG Tempo with snap and delvers
On the draw
-3 daze
-4 natural order
-1 progenitus
-2 force of will
+4 REB
+1 spell pierce
+1 Thrun
+1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
+1 Life from the loam.
+2 surgical extractions
On the play -2 force of will for +2 daze
I didn’t run into this deck during worlds side event but testing (20 games total; 10 main (3/7 records) and 10 sideboard (7/3 record)) shows we are dead game one. Playing against this deck is tricky. You want to fetch your lands first and don’t let it sit there. Surgical their brainstorms and ponders away. This is what really keeps RUG in the game. They have so many ways to find answers. We want RUG to get into a top deck match since we have more powerful cards we can draw compared to them. Gofy wars is where this game will come down too. We have to many answer for delver and snaps in the form of lightning bold, punishing fire, plus REB. They can only really win by goyf. Objective is to win with Thrun and ride it to victory. Most of the time Gofy in this game do not get bigger than a 3 / 4 unless they play a ponder. Also I always keep any hand with life from the loam if that hands allows you to cast it. Meaning if you are on the play and have fetch plus another none fetch land in play or noble; it is a keeper. It will usually play out as such. Turn one fetch basic forest and play noble or just pass the turn. Next follow with your other land and play life, grabbing the fetch. Next turn dredge life and you should possible blank their stifles and wasteland for the rest of the game.
What this deck lacked in the sideboard was one more spell pierce and one more surgical extractions. The deck is cold to combo so it is basically a bye for combo. I think to better shore the combo match up if you are not expecting a lot of zoo, I would leave the submerges and probably cut a REB if merfolk is not prevalent in your meta and add at least 3 chalice of the void and one more surgical extractions. This sideboard I had was meta for zoo, merfolk, RUG tempo deck, bant, and stoneforge decks. If I could do it again I would not change the main but the board only if I am not expecting Zoo. Still need to find room for a spell pierce though.
Ok, I just got back into magic and I missed quite a bit. I have what is probably going to end up being a stupid question, but I was hoping you guys could help me understand something. Everything about this deck makes complete sense and I'm considering building a Reanimator, but I'm very confused about the land. At first instinct, I would think of putting 4 Underground Sea, 4 Watery Grave, 4 Drowned Catacomb, and 4 Darkslick Shores with a couple Swamps and Islands. However, every deck build I see has the Underground Seas with a ton of fetch lands and sometimes an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth. I'm sure there's something I'm missing here, either in terms of how the games play out and the fetch lands being able to combat things or something to deal with the Tomb of Yawgmoth. Can someone explain it to me? Thanks!
You want to maximize your brainstorms with the fetchlands. Imagine if you was running the deck with the aformentioned land configuration when using brainstorm. You'll have no way to get rid of cards you don't want from your brainstorms. The basics are there to avoid plowouts from multiple wasteland. Tomb is always good since it is basically a legendary swamp and makes every land swamps as well.:D
@EroticPunch:Like you I don't think NO RUG is dead yet, though I don't play it at the moment. I remember that earlier in this thread some people tried the Fire / Grove combination in NO RUG. It didn't work out there. I haven't tried it personally, because I always felt it took far too many slots to be worth it. But the meta changed since then, so try it out.
The main thing that I see in your board is that you haven't got anything against ANT, which is a pretty hard mu.
I wanted to have more outs to stopping delver. I upped the grim lavamancers in the main (3x) to deal with tempo decks, 4 bolts as usual, a total of 7 outs for turn one delver. The grim lavamancers was not getting active fast enough or was answered by their own bolts. I made the switch and the combo has been good. I can't find the room for combo hate and since it is a bad matchup already I don't think there is much to do besides dodging it at worlds:D. My thing is have hate for dredge or combo...and I rather have hate for dredge or some type of graveyard theme deck. I really really wanted to put in null rods after your input but I can't find the room. I still have until Sunday before the legacy portion at worlds. I'll try to update on how I did.
I'm thinking about playing something like this. I am not sure how good punishing fire combo would be in NO RUG but I think it will be good due to the fact that everyone is playing some type of tempo deck, particulary RUG with snapcaster mage and delver of secrets. I figure, have a repeatible souce of burn on their tempo win condition should do it. The weird fetch land configuration is to avoid surgical extraction. Let me know what you guys think. I don't feel NO RUG is dead yet and not many will be expecting it so 10/10 protection from everything should seal the deal.
Martijn what are the null rods sideboard in for? Also you didn't play any grim lavamancer in the 75. When playing the deck without them, did you miss them? Also how did you lose to Stoneblade?
The amazing thing about this deck is the synergy between Doomsday and Laboratory Maniac. The card Doomsday literally tutors for Laboratory Maniac, as well as creates the victory condition required for Laboratory Maniac to win the game by virtue of exiling one's library. With a Gush in hand and two lands in play, a player can simply cast Doomsday and stack their new five-card library as follows: Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Yawgmoth's Will, Laboratory Maniac. The player returns two lands to Gush, drawing and playing Lotus and Ancestral, and then the Ancestral draws Lotus Petal, Yawgmoth's Will, and Maniac.
What do you guys think about trying to incorporate the dark depths combo into team america? Would it work? This is the list I am working. No testing done yet.
Very well put. I would also like to add to this that there would be less complaining if people play with less inferior cards. There is an answer to every combo or card:cool2:.
The list that I ended up registering for the tournament is below:
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 punishing fire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Grove of the burnwillows
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Submerge
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
Throughout the tournament I was able to dodge all the red deck wins (a bad matchup), storm combo (slightly bad matchup), and elves (very bad matchup).
I didn't take notes and the following tournament report is coming off memory.
Round 1: (1-0)Bye - Lucky day for me as I was driving from the central valley to Hollywood area to play.
Round 2: (2-0) U/W stoneforge
Game 1: Turn one hierarch for me, land go for opponent. I turn 2 goyf and he turn 2 SFM and tutors for batterskull. On turn three I pass the turn. He activates SFM and in response i vendy clique him, taking the batterskull. He swords the clique and plays JtMS on his turn bouncing goyf. EOT I bolt his Jace. My turn I play my own JtMS and fateseal him, leaving flooded strand on top. His turn he plays his second SFM and tutors for sword of feast and famine. On my turn I remember playing natural order for Proggy. and fateseal him again. On his following turn he attacks with equip SFM on Sword of Feast and Famine. I ended up discarding punishing fire. He concedes as he was on 11 and I have grove in play.
Game 2: Don't remember much on this game but I remembering mulling into 6 and won.
Round 3: (2-1) fast zoo with goblin guide
game 1: He comes out too fast and I die a quick death. Did not see any burn in this game.
Game 2: I was able to stabilize on low life. I remember I had to natural order into a kitchen finks to bring life up. The following turn I natural order finks into scavenging ooze. I was too low on life to grab proggy...Again this match only saw one bolt.:-/
Round 4: (3-1) UR delver burn deck
game 1: A resolve NO for proggy seals the deal on turn 6.
game 2: don't remember much from this match but I was able to take it.
Round 5: (4-1) White Stax
game 1: Proggy steals the game on turn 4 after goyf and bolt does early damage.
Game 2: This was an epic match. He double wrath my board back to back. First one was on goyf and noble, second was on proggy. I had to bait him since I figure he was holding wrath but I wasn't expecting double wrath. I ended up with all three of my basics in play and a noble to his crucible with wasteland lock and horizon canopy and fresh chalice on one and him at three life, early beats plus him shocking himself from ancient tomb. I thought it was over but in the course of three turns I drew into ancient grudge, ancient grudge, and bolt with no cards in hand. He had horizon canopy going with crucible going but was not drawing into business spells.
Round 6 (4-1-1) ID with POX
We both got in. I was 4 and he, 6, in standings. So in calculating we was going to get in for sure.
TOP 8
Quarter finals: (5-1-1) forge combo with goblin welder
Game 1: I counter his grim monolith and ride goyf and vendy clique to victory. He was unable to do anything after this.
Game 2: He starts off fast and a mull to six doesn't work so well. He had three grim monolith! I counter the first one played on city of traitor turn one. He plays two grim monolith on turn 2 and another city of traitor into wurmcoil engine and I concede.
Game 3: I play turn one noble and he plays land pass. I play turn 2 noble and another land and pass. He turn 2 trinisphere and i left it resolve, I had a jace and force in hand. I figure if I land Jace i will win. I play Jace and fateseal away a wasteland to the bottom. I follow that up with Vendy clique leaving him with his hand, three cards which I do not remember. I eventually get there with jace and Vendy clique.
Semi-Finals: (6-1-1) Reanimator
Game 1: I had double force and vendy back to win. I remember countering his entomb and careful study. He was never able to put anything into the grave yard and I take game one.
Game 2: I kept my opening hand and I remember he had to mull. He might of kept a sketchy hand as he was not able to do much. I GSZ for ooze on turn 2. He plays a pithing needle, naming the ooze. I counter his ponder and brainstorm as i felt he was digging. I eventually ride ooze with double exalted trigger to victory.
Finals: (6-2-1) Reanimator
Game 1: I lost to a reanimated sphinx.
Game 2: I mull and kept my six. I turn two ooze. He turn 2 duress my GSZ away, seeing my hand of volcanic island and double clique. I turn three clique him and brainstorms on his draw step. I see his hand and remove entomb as he would have been able to entomb and and reanimate; I was tapped out with no green to activate ooze. I then suspect he hid show and tell on the top. I attack on my turn 4 and pass. I vendy him again losing both of my clique and do see a show and tell. I send it to the bottom. I was able to ride ooze to victory. He did resolve show and tell in this game as he later drew into it, I had drawn Proggy also.
game 3: This one was so close. I vendy cliqued him and sent show and tell to the bottom. I got him down to 8 life with gofy beats. I know he has daze in play and I only have four mana available. I GSZ for ooze and he dazes me. I needed one green mana up so I can remove what ever he bins into his graveyard and my only hope was that he misplays his daze, which he doesn't. He dazes me and I ended up paying. He careful study the following turn and animate dead blazing archan. I had 4 turns to draw into a jace, which i didn't and ended up losing.
This was a great tournament and wished I had taken better notes. It's getting late and I'll update with how I feel about this deck tomorrow or later on this week.
I do agree with you that this deck is bad against ANT but it has positive matchups against everything else. It, however, does lose to combo elves no matter what we do. After the tournament a buddy and I was testing against elves and there is practically no way to win. NO RUG was always a turn too short. I had the burn grove combo going killing all his elves and he was still able to combo off. I was not testing or playing bad either. Elves are just to resilient IMO. I even tried the chalices and they work to no avail. Against ANT or Perfect Storm, I have tried a single teeg in the side..:DIt has been working perfectly. A resolve teeg from a green sun on game two almost guarantees a win. This changes the game dynamically because your opponent now must keep hands they would not have kept on game three, and they are way under more pressure because once we hit three mana, we can GSZ for teeg at anytime.
4 Tarmogoyf is not too many; although I have been contemplating about cutting one goyf for the fourth vendy but decided not too. The only bad match when playing gofy are decks that have KoTR. The are decent against blade decks, hold down the fort against zoo and merfolk, and provide pressure against combo deck. It is true that delver flies over but he can be dealt with. With the amount of burn this deck has, 7 with repeatable burn + 3 more REB from the side, I hardly see delver as a problem. Again the problem with tempo will come down to who has more goyfs.
Jace are only good against control, bant, and decent against reanimator. The way the meta is shaping one main and one side board seems to be working alright for me. There are too many bolts, vendy cliques, and snapcasters to warrant more than 2 jaces. I just feel when casting a 4cc spell, it has to win me the game. Natural order does this quite well.:cool2:
With the current meta this combo is very relevant. So far the meta seems to be tempo decks, gw maverick, bant, and stoneblade decks. Think of what punishing fire can kill in each of those decks; basically everything that is not a KoTR or a goyf. Merfolk and goblins is practically a buy. It is a repeatable card advantage engine that is almost hard to stop game one. I highly advise this combo over what this replaced, grim lavamancer.
I will be taking this to a couple of tournaments this weekend changing nothing but the sideboard. I originally advocated the chalices, specifically for elves, ant, and storm, but testing shows they are no good. NO RUG cannot beat combo Elves at all, so there is no need to find sideboard room. A singleton Teeg added to the sideboard is all we need against ant and storm. This increases our game against them tremendously. The current sideboard is below. I will report on how I did. Wish me luck!:)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 punishing fire
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Grove of the burnwillows
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Submerge
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Spell Pierce
Game 1: Turn 3 Progenitus earned a concession
Game 2: Turn 4 Progenitus earned a concession
Round 2 (2-0): Vs. Rasmus with black white with Dark Confidant.
Game 1: Turn 4 Progenitus gets a concession. I didn't get to see what was in his deck to find out.
Game 2: Turn 3 Vendy, Turn 4 Jace the Mindsculptor, follow by turn 5 Thurn after I Vendy clique one of his vindicates away got the job done.
Round 3 (3-0): Vs Berd with Dredge
Game 1: I got ran over by ichorids and zombies.:-/
Game 2: He goes turn on Firestorm discarding a grave troll. He goes crazy with dredging into one bridge and multiple dredgers in his graveyard plus 1 ichorid. I turn three green sun for Scavenger Ooze and hope he doesn't kill me on his next draw step. He dredge into more dredger and two more ichorid with one Narcomeba. I untap eat his only bridge and surgical extraction his ichorids and slowly eat away his graveyard.
Game 3: He goes turn one putrid imp. I play an misty rainforest. His turn he dredge golgari thug that he discarded on my end step. He misses. I crack the misty rainforest to brainstorm on his end step and find a surgical. I play my scavenging ooze that I open with. He dredge into a nacromeba again. Hard cast another nacromeba and attempts to flashback dread return. I respond by surgical extracting his bridges and he concedes.
Round 4 (4-0): vs Seraj with Merfolk
Game 1: He runs me over with 3 Lords and a kira in play.
Game 2: I had multiple bolts and punishing fire going. He wasn't able to play through it. I took it down with Goyf beats.
Game 3: He goes turn 1 Vial of mutavault; I force. Turn 2 vial again playing another mutavault. I draw into ancient grudge, play my mountain, ancient grudge his Vial. He plays wasteland. I play a misty rainforest, tap forest and mountain to play Goyf and pass the turn. He plays another wasteland. I attack with Goyf and play another one and he concedes after drawing no blue mana.
Round 5 (5-0): vs Jose with Merfolk
Game 1: He runs me over with island walk merfolk:-/
Game 2: Epic battle but i eventually get there with one creature in play, scavenging ooze, 2 groove of the burn willows, 3 volcanic island, 1 mountain, and 1 forest in play to his 2 mutavaults, 2 silvergill adept, 1 jitte with no counter since he wasn't able to equip without getting punishing fire, and an vial on 3. I slowing burned his board and dudes in the grave yard and win on 2 life.
Game 3: I had a very nice hand that was hard for merfolk to deal with. Multiple burn and punishing fire combo. He was never really into it.
Round 6 (5-1): Vs Alex Bertoncini (bant) I was unable to draw since I got paired down.
Game 1: I was never into it. He land Elspeth and it was over in short order. I had two turns before the game was out the way. I had three lands and one of them a Dryad. I drew natural order the following turn, which i had one in my hand already. The following turn I drew Progenitus...:-/ sad times. Had I drew my fourth land I would of had him game one. He had no cards in had besides Elspeth, soldier token, noble, plus lands on the field.
Game 2: I was never in it. He vendy clique my thrun away. Plays an espleth the following turn. I try to double bolt it but he had a force ready for the last one. Lost...
Round 7 (5-2): Vs Noah (combo elves) I should have drew with him, if I did we would have both made it. I miscalculated the possible points.
Game 1: He comboed off on turn 4.
Game 2: I had burn and multiple burn for his elves but his two relics shrink my goyfs and he eventually combos off, since i was unable to race him. I thought I had game 2 with all the burn but relics got me.
I also didn't really test against elves since I wasn't expecting any at Worlds.
After all this I ended up in 10 place out of 91 or 92 participants with 15 points. People who made top 8 was Noah at 18, 2 other players at 17, 5 16 pointers which included the two merfolk guys I beat and Alex B; they all drew in. If I had calculated the points correctly, my tie breakers would have gotten me in. I'm kicking myself for this!!! Now I get no italian legends booster packs.
Overall the deck was solid. No one was prepared for a turn 3 or 4 Proggy. 21 lands is perfect with at least 3 basic with all these stifle and wasteland floating around. These are the first lands I fetch to avoid wasteland. Punishing fire was awesome, probably better than grim lavamancers. The life in the side was awesome as I seem to board it in against every deck with wasteland to ensure my punishing fire combo. Thrun and Ooze was mvp. In testing, before I went, I wanted a second spell pierce since I always boarded it in. I should have cut a submerge. Probably needed another surgical extraction for graveyard hate since I got really lucky playing against dredge. Maybe -1 submerge +1 one surgical extraction. Don't write off NO RUG yet.
***added below***
Sideboard plan:
Against any bant type deck where I only see stoneforge mystic and KoTR as the only beaters
On the draw
-4 tarmogoyf
-3 Green sun zenith
-1 daze
-1 force
+1 jace the mindsculptor
+1 thrun
+3 submerge
+2 ancient grudge
+1 spell pierce
+1 life from the loam
On the play
The only difference is – 2 force of will and add +1 daze
The plan is to go full control/combo since they will board in more removal for your tarmogoyf. You want to blank as much of their removal (most will add anywhere from 2-4 path to exile) as possible. Your Thruns can hold down the fort along with Dryad if you have life from Knights until you combo. They will most likely board out their forces. You must play around their spell pierces as they may bring them in. KoTR and Elspeth is our only real problem so try to save a submerge (when they fetch submerge their knight) and burn for each respectively.
Vs Merfolk
On the draw
-2 vendilion clique
-1 Progenitus
-4 natural order
-1 Jace the Mind sculptor
+4 REB
+1 Life from the loam
+2 ancient grudge
+1 spell pierce
On the play
The only difference is -1 force of will + 1 vendilion clique
Merfolk is a lot harder than what this forums make it to be. Game one is usually theirs if we do not find enough removal for the Lord of Atlantis. Must counters are silver gill adept since it generates card advantage for them, counter them at all cost and keep the game one for one unless you had to force it. Save burn for Lord of Atlantis and you should be fine. If they land kira it becomes a lot harder for us, so try to counter it.
Vs Dredge
On the draw and on the play
-4 Natural order
-1 Jace the mind sculptor
-1 Progenitus
+3 REB
+2 Surgical extractions
+1 spell pierce
We would have to counter all their draw spells and discard outlets. REB are for their nacromebas, break through, and careful study. Save your extractions for their bridges or ichorids depending on the situation. Try to get Scavenger online asap.
Vs Heavy removal deck (team America type deck) or control with alot of removal
I would board out the gofys and bring in 1 thrun, 1 JtMS, 1 spell pierce, and 1 Life from the loam. Again try to blank all their removal and play the control roll and combo off or beat them with Jace while holding down the fort with Thrun.
Vs RUG Tempo with snap and delvers
On the draw
-3 daze
-4 natural order
-1 progenitus
-2 force of will
+4 REB
+1 spell pierce
+1 Thrun
+1 Jace the Mind Sculptor
+1 Life from the loam.
+2 surgical extractions
On the play -2 force of will for +2 daze
I didn’t run into this deck during worlds side event but testing (20 games total; 10 main (3/7 records) and 10 sideboard (7/3 record)) shows we are dead game one. Playing against this deck is tricky. You want to fetch your lands first and don’t let it sit there. Surgical their brainstorms and ponders away. This is what really keeps RUG in the game. They have so many ways to find answers. We want RUG to get into a top deck match since we have more powerful cards we can draw compared to them. Gofy wars is where this game will come down too. We have to many answer for delver and snaps in the form of lightning bold, punishing fire, plus REB. They can only really win by goyf. Objective is to win with Thrun and ride it to victory. Most of the time Gofy in this game do not get bigger than a 3 / 4 unless they play a ponder. Also I always keep any hand with life from the loam if that hands allows you to cast it. Meaning if you are on the play and have fetch plus another none fetch land in play or noble; it is a keeper. It will usually play out as such. Turn one fetch basic forest and play noble or just pass the turn. Next follow with your other land and play life, grabbing the fetch. Next turn dredge life and you should possible blank their stifles and wasteland for the rest of the game.
What this deck lacked in the sideboard was one more spell pierce and one more surgical extractions. The deck is cold to combo so it is basically a bye for combo. I think to better shore the combo match up if you are not expecting a lot of zoo, I would leave the submerges and probably cut a REB if merfolk is not prevalent in your meta and add at least 3 chalice of the void and one more surgical extractions. This sideboard I had was meta for zoo, merfolk, RUG tempo deck, bant, and stoneforge decks. If I could do it again I would not change the main but the board only if I am not expecting Zoo. Still need to find room for a spell pierce though.
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Life from the Loam
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Spell Pierce
You want to maximize your brainstorms with the fetchlands. Imagine if you was running the deck with the aformentioned land configuration when using brainstorm. You'll have no way to get rid of cards you don't want from your brainstorms. The basics are there to avoid plowouts from multiple wasteland. Tomb is always good since it is basically a legendary swamp and makes every land swamps as well.:D
I wanted to have more outs to stopping delver. I upped the grim lavamancers in the main (3x) to deal with tempo decks, 4 bolts as usual, a total of 7 outs for turn one delver. The grim lavamancers was not getting active fast enough or was answered by their own bolts. I made the switch and the combo has been good. I can't find the room for combo hate and since it is a bad matchup already I don't think there is much to do besides dodging it at worlds:D. My thing is have hate for dredge or combo...and I rather have hate for dredge or some type of graveyard theme deck. I really really wanted to put in null rods after your input but I can't find the room. I still have until Sunday before the legacy portion at worlds. I'll try to update on how I did.
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 punishing fire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 scalding tarns
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Grove of the burnwillows
2 Dryad Arbor
3 Submerge
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Trygon Predator
1 Ancient Grudge
below is from starcitygames. Link is here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/23003_Vintage_AvantGarde_Is_Vintage_Too_Fast.html
The amazing thing about this deck is the synergy between Doomsday and Laboratory Maniac. The card Doomsday literally tutors for Laboratory Maniac, as well as creates the victory condition required for Laboratory Maniac to win the game by virtue of exiling one's library. With a Gush in hand and two lands in play, a player can simply cast Doomsday and stack their new five-card library as follows: Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, Yawgmoth's Will, Laboratory Maniac. The player returns two lands to Gush, drawing and playing Lotus and Ancestral, and then the Ancestral draws Lotus Petal, Yawgmoth's Will, and Maniac.
3 vampire hexmage
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 brainstorm
2 ponder
4 daze
4 Force of will
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
2 dismember
1 diabolic edit
1 Ghastly Demise
1 crop rotation
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Dark Depths
2 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Darkblast
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Life from the Loam
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
What do you guys think about trying to incorporate the dark depths combo into team america? Would it work? This is the list I am working. No testing done yet.