In case anyone sees this old thread, I've had much more success goldfishing a monoblue list. It can go off turn 3-4 very consistently, but at those speeds is not very resistant to disruption.
Vines takes two mana to, as the kids don't say, attac and protec. It's a great card, but I'm not sure about using it in a lowland build. Blossoming Defense is the right answer though. I keep thinking Ranger's Guile because of Pauper. Thanks for the catch! I'll go ahead and change that.
I'm gonna baby step into these hexdrinkers, first because they're too expensive (money) and secondly because they still have 1 toughness and take a bunch of mana to be boltproof.
I expect Savage Swipe to be at least as impactful as Scale Up in the early turns that we like to play in, so I'm going to try some of those.
However, I'm now at 9 sorcery-speed pump spells, so I'm adding some Ranger's Guile for protection against non-toughness-based removal.
I just came here to post about Hexdrinker and Scale Up.
I'm really happy about Scale Up. We actually have plenty of evasion. Rancor gives Trample, Skarrgan Pit-Skulk has size-based evasion, and we have fliers like Signal Pest, Ledgewalker, and Vault Skirge.
As for size considerations, Scale Up pumps 13 creatures (in my build) with +5 power: Arbor, Ranger, Skirge, and Pit-Skulk. As an added bonus, Pendlehaven stacks with Hexdrinker on the first 9 of these.
I do worry that Scale Up is Sorcery speed, and along with Rancor allows for more interaction from the opponent.
General notes: Land Grant is pretty silly now that I'm not running Battalion. I guess it still untaps Sentinels.
If we go with fetches to trigger Revolt, we could go nuts with a Savannah and a Taiga and replace the 2/2 Golems with Wild Nacatls.
Maybeboard notes: Memnite is free, Windswept Heath resets the topdeck for Sylvan Library, Battalion is just good with Land Grant and Mutagenic, Heart of Kiran can swing through the air when the ground gets gummed up, Might of Old Krosa is still a solid pump spell, and the other evasive options I mentioned work great with Scale Up.
Replies to recent comments:
If I were to add a 2-drop creature, Rhonas' Last Stand is really spicy, but like a lot of the bigger creatures it doesn't combine well with Scale Up.
This deck is all about tempo and early aggression, and Old Growth Dryads gives away that advantage. I'd sooner run Rogue Elephant.
Utility cards with ETB triggers require two Familiars to build up Treasure.
Cards labeled "Non-ETB" above only require one Familiar because you can Flicker only Pirates and Wall/mancer to repeat their effects.
As an aside, Teachings can help fetch the second Flicker or dig into a small utility toolbox (e.g. Prohibit, Doom Blade).
Vial's not worth returning with Ruins ever, but our other high-impact artifacts like Chalice are real options. The fundamental issue is that you're still spending 3 extra mana and a draw step on that artifact, but there's definitely times that is totally worth it.
Sure, but good luck consistently lining up those situations with randomly drawing the 1-of Ruins. I bet it will be a hindrance to mana development more often than it will let get the game-winning artifact back. But as you say, testing's always good.
Seems perhaps a bit greedy of a manabase. I prefer 21 total, especially if you're adding land outside Cavern/Wasteland/Mutavault that can't make blue. Note that Copter's pretty good at filtering away excess land mid-game, but you won't even get there if you're stuck on one Island after your Cavern gets wasted.
If you're adding Ruins to test it out, take a spell out to make it fit. Just my 2c.
EDIT: Most of those cards aren't so important that I really think you'd need Ruins though. This isn't old school control where you're recurring your Engineered Explosives as your primary gameplan. Remember that Ruins isn't actually card advantage, and you still need a good complement of non-artifact spells and creatures to be successful. I'd expect the intersection of those times you really want an artifact back and the times you actually have Ruins out is quite small. Could use testing, but as a 21st land.
Conqueror of Battle seems decent, but I have a feeling that the cheaper and more evasive creature will be preferred. I'm be curious to see if this doesn't push White into an interesting direction. If it had cost WW for a 2/2, I'm sure it would have seen a ton more play than it probably will.
Cross-posting from the source to get more opinions. I think that from a fundamental/architectural level, Legacy sliver decks have two problems. While I talk about other decks like Merfolk below, the point is to identify the reasons why Slivers isn't competitive. You can beat around the bush all day talking about builds and cards, but unless you're actually identifying problems, there's little possibility of making actual improvements.
The problem with Slivers is twofold. First, card advantage. You need at least 3 slivers, and ideally 4-5 to make a really credible threat. However, that hypothetical 5-sliver army is easily 5-for-1'd with a Toxic Deluge, Terminus, Ensnaring Bridge, Engineered Explosives, etc.
Not only that, but because you need critical mass on the field, you need critical mass in the deck. That means that for beef/power you're "wasting" 12 slots to Lords, whereas another deck can use just 4 slots on Anglers, Tarmogoyfs, Mentors, etc. and have remaining design space for disruption (countermagic/removal/etc.) and library manipulation (draw/cantrips/tutors). Merfolk has Lords, but their Lords also allow them to landwalk the most popular color in the format. That's "free" evasion for which we'd need an entire other card (Galerider). See the pattern? More deck space taken up. More overextension onto the board.
Second, the manabase. Using more colors trades greediness for power. You're more easily disrupted with nonbasic hate, but you can make use of the best cards that your colors have to offer. However, there are so many critical colorless land like Cavern and Mutavault that the rest of the manabase cannot reliably support casting both colored spells and colored creatures. This is the reason for the recent uptick in "all-in" slivers, which is effectively kitchen table tribal: you take a pile of slivers, and a pile of land, smash them together and hope for the best. Compare to Merfolk, where they can actually run 10 or more basic Islands to cast their non-Merfolk spells. Ironically, while the point of going multicolor is to make use of the colors' best spells, it's the single color deck which is better able to actually consistently cast its non-creature spells.
So, what can Wizards do to help Legacy slivers? Well, they can't print a sliver that fixes the fundamental manabase problems, and I bet they won't print slivers that have multiple roles, the way Lord of Atlantis has the multiple roles of granting pump and evasion.
If they printed Deathrite Sliver, a 1/2 which casts for G or B and gave all slivers the abilities of Deathrite Shaman, that could actually help both of the problems above. Good luck with that.
Being a creature instead of an enchantment is a big downside. Doing damage primarily via the red zone is another problem, as Vortex is useful in situations where there's a Bridge or something else clogging up the ground. The lower reliance on red is worth mentioning for multicolor burn decks, but it's not an issue in the Legacy build where every land makes Red. I don't see it replacing Vortex. If you can't run Vortex, this is probably the wrong thread for you.
Yeah Perilous Research is so much better. You get the knowledge of the draws before you're forced to sac, you can sac anything, you don't have to sac if it's countered, and Blue is going to be a major color in the deck anyway due to Thoughtcast and Serpent.
I dunno, 3 is a lot for me (I don't use Gemhide and have no other acceleration). I'm currently on Commune with Nature, and two extra mana for an average of one extra card (in my list) is only par, not amazing. I'd probably do it if it were an Instant, but I'm going to hold off for now. Downgrades are always good though, so I'm happy to hear about it!
https://archidekt.com/decks/283028#Snow_Tide
Having goldfished both lists, the Grixis builds described earlier in this thread seem consistently at least a turn behind monoblue.
Updated list below.
I'm gonna baby step into these hexdrinkers, first because they're too expensive (money) and secondly because they still have 1 toughness and take a bunch of mana to be boltproof.
I expect Savage Swipe to be at least as impactful as Scale Up in the early turns that we like to play in, so I'm going to try some of those.
However, I'm now at 9 sorcery-speed pump spells, so I'm adding some Ranger's Guile for protection against non-toughness-based removal.
4x Vault Skirge (nph)
4x Icehide Golem (mh1)
4x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk (gk2)
2x Hexdrinker (mh1)
4x Rancor (a25) `Pump`
1x Become Immense (uma) `Pump`
3x Savage Swipe (mh1) `Pump`
2x Scale Up (mh1) `Pump`
4x Mutagenic Growth (mm2) `Pump`
2x Ranger's Guile (m15) `Pump`
2x Winter Orb (ema) `Utility`
1x Dryad Arbor (fut) `Mana`
1x Pendelhaven (tsb) `Mana`
4x Land Grant (mmq) `Mana`
4x Quirion Ranger (vis) `Mana`
4x Elvish Spirit Guide (all) `Mana`
8x Snow-Covered Forest (mh1) 254 `Mana`
1x Hunger of the Howlpack (cns) `Maybeboard`
1x Berserk (cn2) `Maybeboard`
1x Narnam Renegade (aer) `Maybeboard`
1x Greenwheel Liberator (aer) `Maybeboard`
1x Rhonas's Last Stand (hou) `Maybeboard` ^Getting,#2ccce4^
1x Might of Old Krosa (mm3) `Maybeboard`
1x Signal Pest (mbs) `Maybeboard`
1x Silhana Ledgewalker (pca) `Maybeboard`
1x Heart of Kiran (aer) `Maybeboard`
1x Talara's Battalion (ddu) `Maybeboard`
1x Windswept Heath (ktk) `Maybeboard`
1x Memnite (som) `Maybeboard`
2x Groundswell (ddp) `Maybeboard`
I'm really happy about Scale Up. We actually have plenty of evasion. Rancor gives Trample, Skarrgan Pit-Skulk has size-based evasion, and we have fliers like Signal Pest, Ledgewalker, and Vault Skirge.
As for size considerations, Scale Up pumps 13 creatures (in my build) with +5 power: Arbor, Ranger, Skirge, and Pit-Skulk. As an added bonus, Pendlehaven stacks with Hexdrinker on the first 9 of these.
I do worry that Scale Up is Sorcery speed, and along with Rancor allows for more interaction from the opponent.
My current potential list needs two cuts
4x Rancor (a25)
2x Sylvan Library (ema)
2x Winter Orb (ema)
4x Groundswell (ddp)
4x Mutagenic Growth (mm2)
4x Vault Skirge (nph)
1x Dryad Arbor (fut)
1x Pendelhaven (tsb)
4x Land Grant (mmq)
4x Quirion Ranger (vis)
4x Elvish Spirit Guide (all)
4x Skarrgan Pit-Skulk (gk2)
8x Snow-Covered Forest (mh1) 254
4x Scale Up (mh1)
4x Hexdrinker (mh1)
4x Icehide Golem (mh1)
1x Memnite (som) `Maybeboard`
1x Windswept Heath (ktk) `Maybeboard`
1x Talara's Battalion (ddu) `Maybeboard`
1x Heart of Kiran (aer) `Maybeboard`
1x Silhana Ledgewalker (pca) `Maybeboard`
1x Might of Old Krosa (mm3) `Maybeboard`
1x Signal Pest (mbs) `Maybeboard`
General notes: Land Grant is pretty silly now that I'm not running Battalion. I guess it still untaps Sentinels.
If we go with fetches to trigger Revolt, we could go nuts with a Savannah and a Taiga and replace the 2/2 Golems with Wild Nacatls.
Maybeboard notes: Memnite is free, Windswept Heath resets the topdeck for Sylvan Library, Battalion is just good with Land Grant and Mutagenic, Heart of Kiran can swing through the air when the ground gets gummed up, Might of Old Krosa is still a solid pump spell, and the other evasive options I mentioned work great with Scale Up.
Replies to recent comments:
If I were to add a 2-drop creature, Rhonas' Last Stand is really spicy, but like a lot of the bigger creatures it doesn't combine well with Scale Up.
This deck is all about tempo and early aggression, and Old Growth Dryads gives away that advantage. I'd sooner run Rogue Elephant.
1 Archaeomancer
1 Mnemonic Wall
1 Prosperous Pirates
1 Nightscape Familiar
1 Sunscape Familiar
1 Ghostly Flicker
1 Mulldrifter
1 Sea Gate Oracle
1 God-Pharaoh's Faithful (non-ETB)
1 Lone Missionary
1 Rishadan Cutpurse (gets around hexproof)
1 Dinrova Horror (Mindtwists)
1 Sage's Row Denizen (Mill, non-ETB)
1 Disciple of the Vault (Life Loss, non-ETB)
Utility cards with ETB triggers require two Familiars to build up Treasure.
Cards labeled "Non-ETB" above only require one Familiar because you can Flicker only Pirates and Wall/mancer to repeat their effects.
As an aside, Teachings can help fetch the second Flicker or dig into a small utility toolbox (e.g. Prohibit, Doom Blade).
Someone's had mixed success with this list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/818937#paper
Any thoughts?
Sure, but good luck consistently lining up those situations with randomly drawing the 1-of Ruins. I bet it will be a hindrance to mana development more often than it will let get the game-winning artifact back. But as you say, testing's always good.
If you're adding Ruins to test it out, take a spell out to make it fit. Just my 2c.
EDIT: Most of those cards aren't so important that I really think you'd need Ruins though. This isn't old school control where you're recurring your Engineered Explosives as your primary gameplan. Remember that Ruins isn't actually card advantage, and you still need a good complement of non-artifact spells and creatures to be successful. I'd expect the intersection of those times you really want an artifact back and the times you actually have Ruins out is quite small. Could use testing, but as a 21st land.
Am I missing something? What card is this? Typo?