In the actual competitive environments (PTQ, Opens, etc.), Caw is at best 30% of the field, it just completely owns the rest so hard that it looks to be disproportionately played more.
Pre-New Phyrexias, sure. I would agree that not since Teachings mirror was there a skill intensive match-up.
However, that changed with the printing of SoWaP. Now against Hawk vs Hawk, first to land SoWaP wins. Being pro-mirror's creatures just seems good...
Was it a bad idea in only this game, or is it a bad idea in all games? Is it "inevitably" a bad idea? If it's a bad idea in only this game, how do you know and why should D_V have known that?
I have yet to play a game where a mass claim day 1 was a good idea, and I didn't expect him to know it. That response was that going by Derp's response, I asummed he believed that DV's scumminess was attributed to his claim. My explanation was his repeated attempts to get the claim through that made me suspicious.
@Shalako:
Uses Wifom to defend D.V.
That was merely my thought process at the time. I don't think someone would be that bold as scum to keep pushing a bad claim.
Says that D.V. is null But calls him leaning town
Again, I saw that as too bold for scum, so my process was if I don't see him as scum, he is leaning town. But I could be wrong, so its leaning instead of "I think he's town."
Keeps his options open to jumping on Zindabad if that wagon takes off. Note the bolded part.
What wagon? I believe at that point, I was the only one who considered Zinda as a possible scum candidate.
Trying to force Yanni lynch on principal because since he got ran up it means he must be lynched.
I can link you to the post I was referring to that Cyan made. And the more I listen, the more I agree with Cyan, just look at some of the basics we've played. The fact that Yanni was pushed to claim, and he left out vital parts/changed it as he wentakes me wonder why we are still having this conversation (also note, I am a strong pusher of policy lynches days 1 and 2).
Tries to handwave my read of Yanni as town away.
Your town read of Yanni was based on the fact that his role had to be obviously town. I HATE it when people assure/say confirmed town if not. Again, TIK's rule #1 of Mafia:
No one is considered town/scum until the moderator types it. NO ONE. (I am working on the others, this is the one that always sees to come up).
What exactly was that supposed to prove? The author clearly thinks his pet deck is exactly the reason this meta isn't ridiculous? In his example, his makes it sound like his deck relies on Mirran Crusader to get there (which in his perfect example, he drops it turn 2).
The only thing I respect about him was that he said he honestly said he was a little biased. But then, he blankets all ban jace supporters as people who are hurting for money, and that's where I lose all respect for him again.
Oh, no. The opposite. I was thinking Dr. Evil to Number 2, "Your stock is rising Number 2." Right after Number 2 presents him with Mini-me. Each of you I feel is townier at 500 than you were at 250.
I probably should have gotten that by the number of times I've seen Austin Powers...
I'm not sure what you would consider the T thing to be. I was going through my notes, which were alphabetized, typed something about Tanarin, moved on, then realized that I had similar thoughts on the next 3 guys. Vezok comes next alphabetically as well. The reads are a coincidence. The way I expressed them is a manner of convenience.
I was being mainly sarcastic. It was kind of a slight reference to 8 Crazy nights when Whitey does the rhyming thing with the mall, and Davey goes: "Was that on purpose or did you rhyme that many times as coincidence?
I assume everyone on the wagon wanted Yanni to claim, or a reasonably WIFOMable substitute therein. I certainly don't think everyone on that wagon is scum by definition. It's the way he treats it, and the ramifications therein, that I find extremely questionable.
I think its because I already see it him as kind of scummy, while you saw him as town that my attitude about it is different. That seemed like a gimme that he was all in for the claim, while your response sounded like you were wondering why he did it. *shrugs*.
I assume rising in stock means you see as scummy (and I wonder if the fact we all have T names is coincidence or purpose, aside from Vezok).
For some reason, I thought someone else subbed out, and you replaced in for that person. That is simply me not paying enough attention, so I am going to have to work on that.
Also at the point to this quote:
I want Yanni to claim.
But my new scum list pending a good claim by Yanni is.
While I agree it sounds like he is just in it for the claim, considering how hard he was pushing for the mass claim, that shouldn't be that much of a surprise he wants Yanni to claim.
From now, it is actually 4 months, a PTG season, and Nationals
People who didn't have Jace would be complaining still like they have been for the last couple months. The Jace price barrier is causing the biggest amount of complaints. It's the Caw Blade dominance that is the only reason that anyone else is paying it any attention. Then again I'm sure people would complain about an all blue top 16. People will always complain.
Price is not the primary issue. It is part of the gripes, but it is common knowledge that price should not be the only thing keeping you from PTQs (although it might discourage people from trying). The issue is a card advantage system with very few ways to answer it (since I feel I have to say it around some of you guys, I mean efficient answers).
We really aren't complaining that Jace is too powerful he's in the best decks, what we are really complaining about is CawBlade let's be honest here. If instead of 12 boring CawBlade decks in the top 16 you instead had had 4 Splinter Twin (Grixis/UR/RUG variations), 2 UW Control, 2 UB Control, 2 RUG, and 2 Grand Architect decks along with the rest of what normally top 16s, you wouldn't be complaining about Jace.
If they all ran Jace, and Jace was fairly consistantly taking 32 out of 32 possible slots, you really don't think we would all be fine with that?
YOu would think that this was a diverse metagame and although Jace is in a lot of top decks you wouldn't care because you had options to win a tournament.
I seriously doubt anyone would think that. It would basically be the game of "Which blue shell can use Jace the best". Not diverse at all.
I am not denying most of the issue is with Caw Blade in the real example, but Jace is considered the amazing card advantage engine in that deck. Mystic, Hawk, and the swords can all easily be hated out individually, but the Jace is much harder to do effectively then the meat and swords.
@Leo: X is essentially the same as 5. And that seems too nit picky. I have only been scum twice, and the first time, all our decisions were pretty forced (revealed doctor, cop, + cop confirmed town) and the second game, we went for a player with strong reads (who happened to be doctor), while the rest of the game was called hunting the PRs. You should read basic 35 if you want to see on of the most epic CC plans, or basic 31 if you want to see the original CC blowout.
In that order, I would like to change my priorities.
Vote ES. That just screams scummy play. And it was exactly what Falconn did to me. The voting just makes me think he tried to attack quickly, but stay with the town organization plan. So for the record, I am voting both ES and falconn.
My lack of posting has been mostly because I opened my pool, and well, my sunburn arm can tell you I love it (will be going in shortly), but here are my thoughts on the state of the game:
@Derp: My suspicion of DV was not in the suggestion of the massclaim, as that inevitably happens almost every game, but his insistance to keep pushing it when imo, it was really clear it was a bad idea.
Still like Yanni for the lynch, and I feel Zindabad has kind of been a distant voice as of recently (one of the ones who was actively defending Yanni's towness) so if Yanni flips scum, he is my next target.
I really don't have much more to add as I feel that the issue right now is Lynch Yanni or not. I don't really see a clear second choice, and I already stated my opinion, so I believe its up to the rest of you to decide, once Derp and Weaver's replacement catch up.
What, so Squadron Hawks should be banned too?
Maybe islands, next?
Would that work for you?
Let's just go back to days of old card faces and three paragraph errata.
Huzzah! That sounds like fun.
...Extremist much?
If they ban Jace, do you know how many top players are going to be insanely upset???
Look at most banned card's price.
Luckily, I did not singularly pay for any of my Jace's.
But what about those who did?
How much was Skullclamp or Ravenger preban???
That will truly be horrible for secondary market customers.
Clearly, those are the only ones that really matter...:rolleyes:
But screw the guy who dumped 400$ into his local game shop, right? Hm. I always thought those types of guys were what made our community tick.
Anyone who waited till Jace was 100$ piece was probably doing it wrong. And actually, the casual players who buy the boosters, if someone is spending that much on singles, odds are they are probably not opening packs.
There are soo many answers, and none of them seem good enough to you Jace Haters, (From this point on, you will be known as Jayters).
You mean, Baby Jace, (not helping), Hex parasite, or Beast Within? Jace1 should be run along Jace2, not byitself, Hex parasite needs at least 5 mana +2 life to get jace (and dies to any creature/artifact destruction), and Beast Within 2-for-1s yourself, AND they get a 3/3 beast. Those are GREEEEAT answers.
Jace is not only a fair card, if it was changing Magic, I think it is positivly changing the face of the game.
:rolleyes:. You know WOCT actually openly said it was printed too powerfully, right? And yeah, I love playing "Jace Race".
I don't even think its changing Magic that much, though. You will always have powerful chase cards in any ccg. That is the name of the game.
While Jace ia helpful, can speed up/slow down a game, and is an awesome card, I just don't see how he's over powered.
Clearly not. And nothing ANYONE could say could change that opinion of yours, just judging by the beginning of your post.
And a 3/3 beast or a Mindsculper?
Are you kidding me?
Would you rather have a big daddy or 3/3 vanilla?
If you said 3/3 vanilla, I can't take you seriously.
Are there not enough creature answers, either?
Are you kidding me? The Jace player gets to go 1 for 1 with a 3 mana instant, net me a card, and a 3/3 body? Are you kidding me? Beast within me all night long.
And in the "real world", not every creature will resolve, or get the opportunity to hit jace.
Seriously, go play a format without Jace.
Sealed is becoming huge. EDH has one Big Daddy, at most. Play an Archenemy game against a cat running Big Daddies with six of your other friends. You could even ban Jace in your casual meta.
Lol.
He was not a problem in extended (before it died) and the perfect power curve for legacy and vintage. EDH, as you said is a 1-of format. The current standard right now is the only concern.
If Wizards and the DCI ban Jace, (they won't, imo), it will solidify most people's misguided beliefs that Wizards will indeed control the secondary Market.
Or it will mean wizards is willing to admit when they go overboard with the mistake, they are big enough to fix it. Besides, wizards definitely has a say in secondary market, even if that was a relevant argument.
Screw that. I'd support my local game stores over WotC every day of the week.
Most of the people who got jaces, who are "top players" probably didn't get them at retail. Just sayin...
@CorpT: Nice find.
@Squall: Most colleges around IL finished around the first two weeks of May, so I don't know the justification for the May21st events (Lewis was done the first friday in May).
Because I meant to do it before with my explanation, if I had to pick one:
Vote Falconn.
Just for the sake of moving the day along, nothing noteworthy on ES, and my only beef with Falconn was from his impulsive attack and his backtrack. So if I had to pick a scum between them...
Jace should not be banned. The last thing Wizards wants is for people to hesistate/not buy product because of the fear that the most powerful card in the set might be banned. It's much easier to ban an Uncommon (Skullclamp), than it is to ban a Mythic Rare that is the face of Magic. They openly admit that his power level is too high and all the walkers since him have been pretty balanced IMO. A Jace ban would have come a loooong time ago if any. At this point it's just bad for business to ban him. Deal with him for 4 months.
That is such a crap argument. On the opposite, Jace should be banned because the last thing wizards wants is for people to stop playing type 2 for the fear that if another affinity/Urza's block comes up, Wizards won't lift a finger. This is why wizards wanted to see NPH: They really don't want to be put into a situation because regardless of the decision, people will be pissed.
I am kind of surprised this is the first time a card has heavily been considered being banned (again, Bitterblossum wasn't going to be, and Mike Flores article pretty much stated that Jund wasn't being considered for a ban.) Power levels have been rising drastically.
If that's the last thing they want to see, they should be a little bit more careful about what they print. THEY screwed up, and not fixing it won't help their image.
Agreed
Besides, there's precedent. Back in mirrodin times (coincidence? I think not), they didn't only ban skullclamp, they also banned ravager, artifact lands, and disciple of the vault respectively. Took them a while, but it happened. The reason being, the meta had devolved into affinity and counter-affinity.
I don't think a blanket ban will happen, but I could be wrong.
Only here we have a bit more of a problem, since the best counter-jace is jace, so we have jace and more jace.
Agreed. I don't know if anyone was looking, but at the SCG top 8, one of the caw blades that did well had 2 Jace1 md.
I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw a blanket ban just to rid the meta of cawblade, just like we did with the affinity ban package. There is truth in the statement that jace is only the core of the problem, but not the whole problem.
The other reason I don't think a blanket ban will happen, is that something new will dominate the format. Probably valkut, or UB (as if Vengevine ever picked up steam, we have our own little hate package in a *free* black spell).
My lack of posting is mainly due to this cluster ☺☺☺☺ of all these posts when I leave for like 5 hours (this was more in the beginning). I may have wanted to comment on something, but then we are moving on to something else.
I still want Yanni gone as nothing he has done before his claim, or since has convinced me of anything. He has been scummy, he claimed something that could be town or scum, and his claim has been subtly changing. And then you have him spewing off posts like: "You never lynch a confirmable PR on the first day". Somebody who has played in, what I believe has been five games should know better. Even if this is his first non-basic, he should have done some research before making such a bold claim. And to top it off, OMGUSing everyone who pushed him does not make him look any better.
DV's massclaim was horrible, but for a different reason. I know it has already been said, but the worse part about the massclaim was him continuing to push it after it was pretty much shut down. And even then, i can't see him as scum putting himself in the spotlight like that.
@Artifice:
Both of these together because I see a trend. As I said some 20 posts ago or so, people have polarized and camped out. Also, you have been the type to swoop in, post a WOW (wall of words, not World of... you get the idea) like a dragon on the wing, fires-a-blazin' and then check in to see if things are going your way aprox 72ish hours later.
First order of business: Requesting probation for Yanni.
On what grounds? *Then TIK remembers what happened yesterday*
Second order of business: Remembering what's going on in this game.
Hard to say. Yanni kind of distracted us. I would say what happened to JTMS? I felt with him not under pressure, he started contributing much less, but I need to refine my read.
Will also be looking back at the DCD train for a better idea of interactions.
Attack ES.
Having a white/red wizard seemed obvious when Drey was failed to be killed night 1. Everyone should have figured that out.
Pre-New Phyrexias, sure. I would agree that not since Teachings mirror was there a skill intensive match-up.
However, that changed with the printing of SoWaP. Now against Hawk vs Hawk, first to land SoWaP wins. Being pro-mirror's creatures just seems good...
I have yet to play a game where a mass claim day 1 was a good idea, and I didn't expect him to know it. That response was that going by Derp's response, I asummed he believed that DV's scumminess was attributed to his claim. My explanation was his repeated attempts to get the claim through that made me suspicious.
@Shalako:
That was merely my thought process at the time. I don't think someone would be that bold as scum to keep pushing a bad claim.
Again, I saw that as too bold for scum, so my process was if I don't see him as scum, he is leaning town. But I could be wrong, so its leaning instead of "I think he's town."
What wagon? I believe at that point, I was the only one who considered Zinda as a possible scum candidate.
I can link you to the post I was referring to that Cyan made. And the more I listen, the more I agree with Cyan, just look at some of the basics we've played. The fact that Yanni was pushed to claim, and he left out vital parts/changed it as he wentakes me wonder why we are still having this conversation (also note, I am a strong pusher of policy lynches days 1 and 2).
Your town read of Yanni was based on the fact that his role had to be obviously town. I HATE it when people assure/say confirmed town if not. Again, TIK's rule #1 of Mafia:
No one is considered town/scum until the moderator types it. NO ONE. (I am working on the others, this is the one that always sees to come up).
What exactly was that supposed to prove? The author clearly thinks his pet deck is exactly the reason this meta isn't ridiculous? In his example, his makes it sound like his deck relies on Mirran Crusader to get there (which in his perfect example, he drops it turn 2).
The only thing I respect about him was that he said he honestly said he was a little biased. But then, he blankets all ban jace supporters as people who are hurting for money, and that's where I lose all respect for him again.
I probably should have gotten that by the number of times I've seen Austin Powers...
I was being mainly sarcastic. It was kind of a slight reference to 8 Crazy nights when Whitey does the rhyming thing with the mall, and Davey goes: "Was that on purpose or did you rhyme that many times as coincidence?
I think its because I already see it him as kind of scummy, while you saw him as town that my attitude about it is different. That seemed like a gimme that he was all in for the claim, while your response sounded like you were wondering why he did it. *shrugs*.
I assume rising in stock means you see as scummy (and I wonder if the fact we all have T names is coincidence or purpose, aside from Vezok).
For some reason, I thought someone else subbed out, and you replaced in for that person. That is simply me not paying enough attention, so I am going to have to work on that.
Also at the point to this quote:
While I agree it sounds like he is just in it for the claim, considering how hard he was pushing for the mass claim, that shouldn't be that much of a surprise he wants Yanni to claim.
From now, it is actually 4 months, a PTG season, and Nationals
Price is not the primary issue. It is part of the gripes, but it is common knowledge that price should not be the only thing keeping you from PTQs (although it might discourage people from trying). The issue is a card advantage system with very few ways to answer it (since I feel I have to say it around some of you guys, I mean efficient answers).
I seriously doubt anyone would think that. It would basically be the game of "Which blue shell can use Jace the best". Not diverse at all.
I am not denying most of the issue is with Caw Blade in the real example, but Jace is considered the amazing card advantage engine in that deck. Mystic, Hawk, and the swords can all easily be hated out individually, but the Jace is much harder to do effectively then the meat and swords.
In that order, I would like to change my priorities.
Vote ES. That just screams scummy play. And it was exactly what Falconn did to me. The voting just makes me think he tried to attack quickly, but stay with the town organization plan. So for the record, I am voting both ES and falconn.
My lack of posting has been mostly because I opened my pool, and well, my sunburn arm can tell you I love it (will be going in shortly), but here are my thoughts on the state of the game:
@Derp: My suspicion of DV was not in the suggestion of the massclaim, as that inevitably happens almost every game, but his insistance to keep pushing it when imo, it was really clear it was a bad idea.
Still like Yanni for the lynch, and I feel Zindabad has kind of been a distant voice as of recently (one of the ones who was actively defending Yanni's towness) so if Yanni flips scum, he is my next target.
I really don't have much more to add as I feel that the issue right now is Lynch Yanni or not. I don't really see a clear second choice, and I already stated my opinion, so I believe its up to the rest of you to decide, once Derp and Weaver's replacement catch up.
...Extremist much?
Clearly, those are the only ones that really matter...:rolleyes:
Anyone who waited till Jace was 100$ piece was probably doing it wrong. And actually, the casual players who buy the boosters, if someone is spending that much on singles, odds are they are probably not opening packs.
You mean, Baby Jace, (not helping), Hex parasite, or Beast Within? Jace1 should be run along Jace2, not byitself, Hex parasite needs at least 5 mana +2 life to get jace (and dies to any creature/artifact destruction), and Beast Within 2-for-1s yourself, AND they get a 3/3 beast. Those are GREEEEAT answers.
:rolleyes:. You know WOCT actually openly said it was printed too powerfully, right? And yeah, I love playing "Jace Race".
Clearly not. And nothing ANYONE could say could change that opinion of yours, just judging by the beginning of your post.
Are you kidding me? The Jace player gets to go 1 for 1 with a 3 mana instant, net me a card, and a 3/3 body? Are you kidding me? Beast within me all night long.
And in the "real world", not every creature will resolve, or get the opportunity to hit jace.
He was not a problem in extended (before it died) and the perfect power curve for legacy and vintage. EDH, as you said is a 1-of format. The current standard right now is the only concern.
Or it will mean wizards is willing to admit when they go overboard with the mistake, they are big enough to fix it. Besides, wizards definitely has a say in secondary market, even if that was a relevant argument.
Most of the people who got jaces, who are "top players" probably didn't get them at retail. Just sayin...
@CorpT: Nice find.
@Squall: Most colleges around IL finished around the first two weeks of May, so I don't know the justification for the May21st events (Lewis was done the first friday in May).
Vote Falconn.
Just for the sake of moving the day along, nothing noteworthy on ES, and my only beef with Falconn was from his impulsive attack and his backtrack. So if I had to pick a scum between them...
That is such a crap argument. On the opposite, Jace should be banned because the last thing wizards wants is for people to stop playing type 2 for the fear that if another affinity/Urza's block comes up, Wizards won't lift a finger. This is why wizards wanted to see NPH: They really don't want to be put into a situation because regardless of the decision, people will be pissed.
I am kind of surprised this is the first time a card has heavily been considered being banned (again, Bitterblossum wasn't going to be, and Mike Flores article pretty much stated that Jund wasn't being considered for a ban.) Power levels have been rising drastically.
Agreed
I don't think a blanket ban will happen, but I could be wrong.
Agreed. I don't know if anyone was looking, but at the SCG top 8, one of the caw blades that did well had 2 Jace1 md.
The other reason I don't think a blanket ban will happen, is that something new will dominate the format. Probably valkut, or UB (as if Vengevine ever picked up steam, we have our own little hate package in a *free* black spell).
My lack of posting is mainly due to this cluster ☺☺☺☺ of all these posts when I leave for like 5 hours (this was more in the beginning). I may have wanted to comment on something, but then we are moving on to something else.
I still want Yanni gone as nothing he has done before his claim, or since has convinced me of anything. He has been scummy, he claimed something that could be town or scum, and his claim has been subtly changing. And then you have him spewing off posts like: "You never lynch a confirmable PR on the first day". Somebody who has played in, what I believe has been five games should know better. Even if this is his first non-basic, he should have done some research before making such a bold claim. And to top it off, OMGUSing everyone who pushed him does not make him look any better.
DV's massclaim was horrible, but for a different reason. I know it has already been said, but the worse part about the massclaim was him continuing to push it after it was pretty much shut down. And even then, i can't see him as scum putting himself in the spotlight like that.
@Artifice:
That's actually pretty standard DC.
Thanks for making me feel less important
On what grounds? *Then TIK remembers what happened yesterday*
Hard to say. Yanni kind of distracted us. I would say what happened to JTMS? I felt with him not under pressure, he started contributing much less, but I need to refine my read.
Will also be looking back at the DCD train for a better idea of interactions.