I still run a list with 3 Field of ruin and just 3 Lingering Souls main and 2 Stony side (comparable to Reid Duke's list).
I am 19-2 with the list so far in paper tournaments. By the way 7-1 vs. BG Tron.
EE can be 3rd Thoughtseize and Shambling Vent can be a Plains if you want to play it a bit safer.
In testing, I have big trouble vs. Humans (especially the Coco versions). I successfully played Humans myself for a while and I think the deck is just more powerful right now. I totally disagree with the primer that the matchup is in our favor.
How do you approach the matchup and how do you board? I have now 1 EE main. 2 Damnation side and it is definitely not enough. Mirran Crusader is a big problem.
Hi. I haven't posted for a while. Did we decide yet if the vial version or coco is better? I feel with all the midrange decks (mardu)..and Jace coming up that coco might be the better choice. Opinions?
So I played Abzan the first time last night at a 26 people Thursday night modern.
Started 4-0 being the only person at 4-0. Won against Titanshift, Storm, Burn, and Affinity
In round 5 I had to play Collins Mullen on Humans. I easily got game 1.
Game 2 I punted: I had a LoV with 2 loyalty on board, a fatal push, an abrupt decay and a damnation in hand. He had just a Xanthid Necromancer and an unkown card. He attacked Lili and I thought I had to save Decay (he knew about the card) for a more important creature and pushed the necromancer while forgetting that it is a 3-drop :/....losing the card as well as the LoV. After that I lost G2 and G3.
I got punished even more, because I dropped to 4th place overall because of the pair-down :(.
However, the deck performed really well with the 3 FoR main. I couldn't really use them but one time they fixed my mana vs. Affinity. Especially against Affinity FoR seems very strong.
I am still on at least 3 FoR in any GBx deck right now. The card is extremely good. I actually think that Rock is probably the best GBx deck atm, given the presence of Tron. If you want to compete at the PT, you can't loose to that deck.
My Abzan build would be, which I call Souls Rock (kinda like that name):
This manabase should be as optimal as possible while not giving up too much on Quagmire and FoR: 19 black sources, 16 green sources and 10 white sources.
I goldfished with this mana base but -1 hissing quagmire for +1 shambling vent. I know it is just goldfishing but I have 0 problems to cast any cards in about 80 simulated games.
What are your thoughts moving the Liliana, last hope from the main to the side and move 1 CB from the side to main. Seems much more flexible (I run 3 CB side atm)
I am still on at least 3 FoR in any GBx deck right now. The card is extremely good. I actually think that Rock is probably the best GBx deck atm, given the presence of Tron. If you want to compete at the PT, you can't loose to that deck.
My Abzan build would be, which I call Souls Rock (kinda like that name):
This manabase should be as optimal as possible while not giving up too much on Quagmire and FoR: 19 black sources, 16 green sources and 10 white sources.
I would like to keep a 3rd Thoughtseize...what is first to cut? 1 Tireless Tracker?
I am still on at least 3 FoR in any GBx deck right now. The card is extremely good. I actually think that Rock is probably the best GBx deck atm, given the presence of Tron. If you want to compete at the PT, you can't loose to that deck.
This manabase should be as optimal as possible while not giving up too much on Quagmire and FoR: 19 black sources, 16 green sources and 10 white sources.
I like this configuration. Did you consider a Plains or 1 Shambling Vent for 1 Hissing Quagmire?
Do you suggest having field of ruins is better right now than the 3-4 Lingering Souls?
Thats the point where I am not sure enough to tell. FoR really does seem appealing I have to say. But so does Souls.
For me, it ultimately boils down to how the control matchup fares with the Rock deck, since Souls is a such a liability in that matchup. If Rock can win a decent amount of times against Control, I am pretty certain FoR is just better right now. FoR helps us against Tron quite a bit.
Shouldn't the control match be good with Dark Confidant, Tracker, Liliana, and FoR main ...and Thrun, Fulminator side?
In addition, if people complain about the mana base ..do we really have to run 4 manlands?
Whether or not we want to make the trade is a hard question with no obvious answer. Testing will have to show us the way. However, what I can say (based on my experiences yesterday) is that the grindy matchups need some help. In long grindy games, the current version of BG Rock has got to be one of the worst Thoughtseize/Liliana decks ever built. It has 8 discard spells, zero guaranteed two-for-ones like Souls or Huntmaster, and every single threat in the deck can be cleanly answered by both Fatal Push and Path to Exile. This is a very big problem against any midrange mirror and any control matchup. I don't know if this can be solved without splashing for Lingering Souls. Tireless Tracker is the current idea based on the popular decklists, but in my opinion it just isn't nearly as good. I know an unchecked Tracker just wins the game, but the floor is pretty low. When it gets killed on sight, the trade ends up being 3 mana + a clue for a Fatal Push or Bolt or Path. That is definitely not good enough. I think Grim Flayer can help a little bit with fighting token armies because it has trample, but I don't know what else can be done without dipping into white or red.
As for Field of Ruin versus control, it's good against Colonnade but that's about it. Actually, as I'm typing this, that comment makes me remember that 2 Tectonic Edge was extremely common in Jund back in ~2013-2014 when the metagame was dominated by Jund/Twin/UWR Control (i.e. Celestial Colonnade and Raging Ravine were serious concerns), and now that Colonnade is good again perhaps it's time to bring that idea back, but with an upgrade! Like you could play the following mana base in a conservative Abzan build (i.e. playing W just for Souls and maybe Stony Silence):
With the FoR present to help against Control. It obviously isn't as good as 4 FoR versus Tron, but it's something.
Did anyone test this approach so far?
I don't know if I should play BG Rock or Abzan right now. From the theory I love Field of Ruin right now more than Souls but you guys were talking about the very clunky manabase, which is probably due to the colorless mana.
Do we have any suggestion yet how to fuse both worlds?
I am testing Jeskai Tempo and Jeskai Control right now and can't decide what is better in an open meta. I am more experienced with Tempo.
Went 4-1 yesterday in a local event losing match 1 to Jeskai control. While the player was not very experienced with the archetype and did a ton of mistakes, he still won based on a flipped SFA.
I like playing control but I have the feeling that Jeskai Control is just really bad against Burn, Titanshift, Storm and Tron.
How would you overall compare the matchups of the two decks against the field?
I played Vial Humans in recent tournaments and I wasn't happy because I had little choices in a lot of matchups and naming with Meddling Mage was usually a coin-flip that I have lost.
I still run a list with 3 Field of ruin and just 3 Lingering Souls main and 2 Stony side (comparable to Reid Duke's list).
I am 19-2 with the list so far in paper tournaments. By the way 7-1 vs. BG Tron.
Here my list:
// 1 Artifact
1 Engineered Explosives
// 12 Creature
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Scavenging Ooze
// 6 Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
// 23 Land
1 Temple Garden
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Field of Ruin
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Treetop Village
1 Shambling Vent
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
// 13 Sorcery
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
1 Duress
EE can be 3rd Thoughtseize and Shambling Vent can be a Plains if you want to play it a bit safer.
In testing, I have big trouble vs. Humans (especially the Coco versions). I successfully played Humans myself for a while and I think the deck is just more powerful right now. I totally disagree with the primer that the matchup is in our favor.
How do you approach the matchup and how do you board? I have now 1 EE main. 2 Damnation side and it is definitely not enough. Mirran Crusader is a big problem.
Started 4-0 being the only person at 4-0. Won against Titanshift, Storm, Burn, and Affinity
In round 5 I had to play Collins Mullen on Humans. I easily got game 1.
Game 2 I punted: I had a LoV with 2 loyalty on board, a fatal push, an abrupt decay and a damnation in hand. He had just a Xanthid Necromancer and an unkown card. He attacked Lili and I thought I had to save Decay (he knew about the card) for a more important creature and pushed the necromancer while forgetting that it is a 3-drop :/....losing the card as well as the LoV. After that I lost G2 and G3.
I got punished even more, because I dropped to 4th place overall because of the pair-down :(.
However, the deck performed really well with the 3 FoR main. I couldn't really use them but one time they fixed my mana vs. Affinity. Especially against Affinity FoR seems very strong.
I goldfished with this mana base but -1 hissing quagmire for +1 shambling vent. I know it is just goldfishing but I have 0 problems to cast any cards in about 80 simulated games.
Isn't that too much life loss for the deck considering confidant?
I would like to keep a 3rd Thoughtseize...what is first to cut? 1 Tireless Tracker?
I like this configuration. Did you consider a Plains or 1 Shambling Vent for 1 Hissing Quagmire?
Can we go:
-1 Thoughtseize (because 8 discard spells is a ton)
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
Therefore a mix of 2 Scavenging Ooze and 2 Grim Flayers to smoothen draws? Or is the BG that Grim Flayer demands too much for the deck?
Shouldn't the control match be good with Dark Confidant, Tracker, Liliana, and FoR main ...and Thrun, Fulminator side?
In addition, if people complain about the mana base ..do we really have to run 4 manlands?
Did anyone test this approach so far?
I don't know if I should play BG Rock or Abzan right now. From the theory I love Field of Ruin right now more than Souls but you guys were talking about the very clunky manabase, which is probably due to the colorless mana.
Do we have any suggestion yet how to fuse both worlds?
I am testing Jeskai Tempo and Jeskai Control right now and can't decide what is better in an open meta. I am more experienced with Tempo.
Went 4-1 yesterday in a local event losing match 1 to Jeskai control. While the player was not very experienced with the archetype and did a ton of mistakes, he still won based on a flipped SFA.
I like playing control but I have the feeling that Jeskai Control is just really bad against Burn, Titanshift, Storm and Tron.
How would you overall compare the matchups of the two decks against the field?
So I went back to the CoCo version.
Now this article came out:
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/the-road-to-finding-the-best-humans-list-in-modern/
Thoughts?