In four FNM level events and a 1k, I've hit the nightmare scenario of single plains with a hand that would be keepable with any other land twice. As you mentioned, the plains helps with ensuring the Bridge lock stays in place and helps you cast Kambal through a Blood Moon, but it still feels AWFUL to have to mulligan because of it. At this point I'm inclined to cut it.
Easily a mulligan. Your best move against an unknown opponent is to turn 1 Thoughtseize/IoK and you have no way to cast the one in hand. Additionally, the hand is very clunky.
Is there an optimal line or strategy behind Liliana, the Last Hope? I've never actually played the card in any format, so I'm not sure what her role is or what kind of expectations to set.
She is synergistic with our deck in that she functions as spot removal or as a way to dig for a threat or dump more cards into the yard for a Reveler. Her ultimate is pretty much game ending.
She shines in attrition matchups and against small creature decks. Liliana of the Veil is still better against control.
Also it's important to remember that you can tick her up without a target.
This is the spot! Unfortunately, I believe the forum head is inactive so no primer currently, but the folks here can give you a pretty good run down of whatever you're curious on.
Overall, my team finished 4-4 but my personal record was 3-2-3, with the 3 draws being games that did not need to be finished due to the results achieved by my teammates.
My matchups were as follows:
Round 1 - Bant Knightfall: This game didn't finish, we were 1-1 going into 3. I feel like the matchup is pretty even but we definitely have the resources to beat them down.
Round 2 - Dredge: I won this one in 3. He rolled me game 1 and couldn't contend with opening Leylines in games 2 & 3. I would fear this matchup more if I were still on the spellbomb plan, but it's honestly a cakewalk if you have the Leylines.
Round 3 - Blue Moon: This was an odd matchup. I feel favored as I already grab basic swamps early for my own Bloodmoon in game 1, but we had two odd non-games. The first one he got stuck on one land until I killed him, and the second I mulled to 4 after drawing 3 hands with no lands in them. The final game didn't even finish because my team mates wrapped it up quickly.
Round 4 - UR Pyromancer: This is traditionally a pretty bad matchup, but luckily for me my opponent was not on the Ancestral Visions plan and had prepared instead for other matchups. I beat him in two quickly.
Round 5 - Storm: I regret not packing a Kambal precisely for the matchup. I lose in 2, in the first he gets me for exactsies while I have lethal onboard. On the second I see a good hand with a sweeper and lootings but no Leyline, so I keep and eventually die to topdecking Leylines lol.
Round 6 - Jund: I have something like a 70% winrate versus Jund and know the matchup very well. Unfortunately game 1 he cascades into Lili Last Hope and I have one of those odd games where you draw a bunch of action but no clock so I just kind of durdle and die. Game two I turn 1 loot away double souls and beat him down in short order. We didn't get to finish the game because my teammates finished.
At this point we are knocked out of Day 2 contention but continue to play since we flew around the world for the event
Round 7 - Ad Nauseum: I win game 1 with immense pressure before he can get online. Game 2 I keep a discard heavy hand and he Leylines me, too bad. Game 3 I present a clock and get him to -3 off Unlife and then Wear//Tear it after combat for the kill.
Round 8 - Humans: I present a huge amount of tokens game 1 and shut him down off a slow start. Game 2 he beats me the turn before I can stablize. Game 3 I mull to 4 with the same situation about not seeing any lands, my opponent on the other hand hits three lands, double Lieutenants, double Mantis Rider, and triple Phantasmal Images, RIP.
Overall I had a swell time and all my opponents were fantastic folks. I was a bit disappointed in that the deck didn't feel like it ran very hot - I had a lot of bad opening hands, and I felt as if I had a good chance at taking down all my matchups if things had gone a bit better.
I'm actually on board with the Crumble to Dust. That match up is abysmal for us. I think I'd rather just have that as the answer and hope for the best. It feels bad when we have to fight tooth and nail for a 2 card combo that only helps slow their game down rather than just having it all in one. That being said, I'd rather fight through their first few turns to try and resolve that rather than play a fulminator and hope to either hit more LD or a surgical. Having it all rolled up into the singular card is more appealing to me. Deal with their first couple of threats and hope it works out better for ya.
Just my opinion.
My problem with Crumble isn't just the Tron matchup though. It's too slow often times for it to impact the outcome of the tron match anyway (and often ends up at about the same % or less than Molten Rain) but it is also just a narrow card that won't really come in against pretty much anything else. Molten Rain and Surgical are great for other matchups as well and I bring them in frequently because of how good they are.
I'd much rather have something that slows them down when cast most of the time than something that you'll probably never get to cast most of the time. The matchup is bad but I've had great success in post boarded games against it with the 3x Molten Rain 2x Surgical plan. I'd rather play the "run no hate for it at all" plan than the Crumble to Dust plan.
Another issue here is that Crumble costs 4 mana versus 3. I was thinking about it last night and I RARELY hit 4 lands by turn 4 (in my 19 land shell) between naturally drawing them and Looting. It's worth mentioning Frank Karsten's article "How Many Lands Do You Need To Consistently Hit Your Land Drops". Based on his statistics, 19 lands only gives you a 61% chance of hitting 4 lands by turn 4, and that is assuming you don't pitch any to looting. I don't think trying to cast Crumble on turn 4 in this deck is even remotely worth it.
Grats on the performance man! Deck still looks great! I think there personally is really no "wrong way" to go and that pretty much most iterations of this deck all come down to personal preference and metagame decisions. My list was tuned for GP Phx and I still have to see how my meta adjusts for the next big event. More big mana seems to be creeping back which means Blood Moons might want to come back in (which also makes me drop the green and BBE's). I've also seen an uptick in RG Eldrazi which I'd much rather out value them than Blood Moon them.
Thank you! I'm inclined to agree with you about big mana creeping back, and Mono G tron still seems to be holding a large metagame share even if I'm not seeing it in paper. I'll probably bring the Mardu version of the deck to GP Sydney in April as opposed to the Bloodbraid version solely for the presence of Blood Moon.
On a related note, Gerry T posted that list last week that had Crumble to Dust as opposed to Fulminators or Molten Rain. I like how hard of an answer it is, but it still gives the Tron player a turn to deploy a huge threat if we get it on our turn 4. What do y'all think about this tech?
The deck ran pretty hot all day up until the top 8. The room was largely fair midrange and aggressive decks and I think there was only 1 ETron and 1 BG Tron.
Anyways, here's a short write up:
Round 1(0-0) - RW Prison (2-0)
Game 1: Opponent won the die roll and stuck a chalice on 1 via spirit guide on my turn zero. I stick a turn 2 Pyromancer and dump out my hand of one drops to get the tokens and run him over.
Game 2: I pick apart his hand and Bloodmoon him (the irony) then cast a Reveler. He hits reveler with Cast Out which I Wear//Tear at the end of his turn to draw three cards and proceed to beat him down.
Round 2 (1-0) - Jeskai Control (2-0)
Game 1: Very grindy game, but I ended up chaining two Revelers to turn the corner.
Game 2: I turn 1 Inquisition and see a hand full of sweepers and Keranos. Sweet. I manage to take control of the game and hit his lands with fulminator to keep him of Keranos. When he finally lands the Keranos, he flips land after land to its trigger and I get there with tokens that he isn't able to remove.
Round 3 (2-0) - Bogles (1-2)
Game 1: He gets the turn zero Leyline and runs me over in about 3 turns.
Game 2: I manage to beat him down with Hazoret.
Game 3: He hits Leyline and Rest In Peace and beats me down before I can get anything online. This was the nightmare scenario where I am low on lands and can't manage to cast the Reveler in my hand because I need to keep flashing back Lingering Souls thus reducing the size of my yard so I just never get operational.
Round 4 (2-1) - Jund (2-0)
I don't remember all the details of this match but it wasn't close. Game one I deployed at least two full cards worth of Lingering Souls and game two I had Hazoret backed up by tokens to dodge a Liliana edict.
Round 5 (3-1) - Jund (2-0)
Game 1: The grind continues! In this game we trade resources and he deploys a turn 4 Bloodbraid that cascades into Liliana the Last Hope which proceeds to eat my Pyro. I counter with a bolt to the Bloodbraid on my turn followed by a hasty Hazoret to kill Lilana, and the game was all downhill for my opponent from there.
Game 2: My opponent didn't see a Bloodmoon game 1, so I leave them in. On a mull to 6 draw the nut hand of Swamp x2, fetch land, Bloodmoon, Looting, Lingering Souls. I stick the turn 3 Bloodmoon after my opponent has fetched and shocked aggressively for 3 lands and also has a Twilight Mire. He proceeds to not draw anything of note and I eventually hit a Reveler and beat him down. He doesn't offer me the hand shake and half throws his deck while he's de-sideboarding. Yikes.
I finish the swiss at 4-1 and place into the top 8 at 6th. The top 8 was Humans, Humans, BW Tokens/Planeswalkers, Jund, Blue Moon, Counters Company, Bogles, and myself.
Top 8 - Jund (1-2)
Game 1: I mull to five and keep a 1 lander with Souls, Souls, Looting, and something else. We trade resources but I pull ahead as he can't answer all the tokens.
Game 2: My opponent hits turn 4 Bloodbraid into Goyf and turn 5 Bloodbraid into Liliana. I didn't stand a chance against that pressure.
Game 3: My opponent keeps 7 and I'm forced to mull to 5 with a single land, a looting, a Reveler, a Pyromancer, and a bolt. I don't hit my second land until turn 4 and draw Revelers on turns 5 & 6, truly heartbreaking.
I chose the deck because I knew it crushed midrange matchups and I expected a lot of Jund. I had considered running Exatraz's list with BBE but I wasn't experienced enough with the build to feel confident in bringing it to an open meta. Overall the deck ran really well and I was happy with my sideboard. If I could do it again I would probably cut a Bloodmoon for a Lilana of the Veil main and cut the side Veil for a Last Hope.
Hey, I got a pretty simple question since I've never had a chance to play this deck. I'm planning on taking the deck to my LGS for FMN. However, I got a question about the manabase. I have nearly all the cards needed for an average manabase (including the Blackcleave Cliffs) according to MTGGoldfish. However, I'm missing 2 Marsh Flats for the full playset which would make the manabase properly average.
So, In your peoples opinion, What would be better for the deck, Running Two Arid Mesas (to keep the fetches on colour and allow me to fetch white) or should I run two polluted deltas (To get the Black)?
Arid Mesas are probably where you want to be, the deck is more red than it is black. I currently run 4x Mire, 2x Mesa, 2x Marsh and I rarely have a problem getting the colors/basics I need.
How does everyone feel about Mardu Pyromancer in the new BBE/Jace meta? Since the protour I've been looking for a midrange/grindy deck to pickup and get better with. I mostly play combo which really doesn't improve your magic fundamentals imo.
Just curious how the deck is holding up.
I've been running various iterations of the deck for a while now and I'd say it's pretty well positioned - there are few midrange decks that like to have Lingering Souls cast against them and Bedlam Reveler is just a beating for fair decks of any sort. Big mana is a rough matchup however, and the deck is soft to strong graveyard hate (Leyline, RiP) but luckily neither of those are really out in overwhelming force right now. The deck is definitely skill intensive but also incredibly fun so I'd recommend it. A lot of the components have gone up in price with Jund's recent success, so proxy before you buy - just my two cents.
If you can't see the article, he said his plan is to dodge tron since he is committing no sideboard to it, and Hazoret might just be enough on her own. Also he says that his inclusion of Leyline over Spellbomb is probably a mistake, so make of that what you will.
Thats exactly my mainboard I posted a few pages back, only thing different is -1 LotV and +1 Terminate. My SB is also a bit different.
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
Enchantment
3 Blood Moon
Land
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Manamorphose
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
2 Dreadbore
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear // Tear
1 Collective Brutality
Notable adoption of Ensnaring Bridge and a notable lack of basic Plains.
She is synergistic with our deck in that she functions as spot removal or as a way to dig for a threat or dump more cards into the yard for a Reveler. Her ultimate is pretty much game ending.
She shines in attrition matchups and against small creature decks. Liliana of the Veil is still better against control.
Also it's important to remember that you can tick her up without a target.
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Enchantment
2 Blood Moon
Land
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Manamorphose
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Dreadbore
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear // Tear
2 Collective Brutality
3 Molten Rain
2 Anger of the Gods
Overall, my team finished 4-4 but my personal record was 3-2-3, with the 3 draws being games that did not need to be finished due to the results achieved by my teammates.
My matchups were as follows:
Round 1 - Bant Knightfall: This game didn't finish, we were 1-1 going into 3. I feel like the matchup is pretty even but we definitely have the resources to beat them down.
Round 2 - Dredge: I won this one in 3. He rolled me game 1 and couldn't contend with opening Leylines in games 2 & 3. I would fear this matchup more if I were still on the spellbomb plan, but it's honestly a cakewalk if you have the Leylines.
Round 3 - Blue Moon: This was an odd matchup. I feel favored as I already grab basic swamps early for my own Bloodmoon in game 1, but we had two odd non-games. The first one he got stuck on one land until I killed him, and the second I mulled to 4 after drawing 3 hands with no lands in them. The final game didn't even finish because my team mates wrapped it up quickly.
Round 4 - UR Pyromancer: This is traditionally a pretty bad matchup, but luckily for me my opponent was not on the Ancestral Visions plan and had prepared instead for other matchups. I beat him in two quickly.
Round 5 - Storm: I regret not packing a Kambal precisely for the matchup. I lose in 2, in the first he gets me for exactsies while I have lethal onboard. On the second I see a good hand with a sweeper and lootings but no Leyline, so I keep and eventually die to topdecking Leylines lol.
Round 6 - Jund: I have something like a 70% winrate versus Jund and know the matchup very well. Unfortunately game 1 he cascades into Lili Last Hope and I have one of those odd games where you draw a bunch of action but no clock so I just kind of durdle and die. Game two I turn 1 loot away double souls and beat him down in short order. We didn't get to finish the game because my teammates finished.
At this point we are knocked out of Day 2 contention but continue to play since we flew around the world for the event
Round 7 - Ad Nauseum: I win game 1 with immense pressure before he can get online. Game 2 I keep a discard heavy hand and he Leylines me, too bad. Game 3 I present a clock and get him to -3 off Unlife and then Wear//Tear it after combat for the kill.
Round 8 - Humans: I present a huge amount of tokens game 1 and shut him down off a slow start. Game 2 he beats me the turn before I can stablize. Game 3 I mull to 4 with the same situation about not seeing any lands, my opponent on the other hand hits three lands, double Lieutenants, double Mantis Rider, and triple Phantasmal Images, RIP.
Overall I had a swell time and all my opponents were fantastic folks. I was a bit disappointed in that the deck didn't feel like it ran very hot - I had a lot of bad opening hands, and I felt as if I had a good chance at taking down all my matchups if things had gone a bit better.
Another issue here is that Crumble costs 4 mana versus 3. I was thinking about it last night and I RARELY hit 4 lands by turn 4 (in my 19 land shell) between naturally drawing them and Looting. It's worth mentioning Frank Karsten's article "How Many Lands Do You Need To Consistently Hit Your Land Drops". Based on his statistics, 19 lands only gives you a 61% chance of hitting 4 lands by turn 4, and that is assuming you don't pitch any to looting. I don't think trying to cast Crumble on turn 4 in this deck is even remotely worth it.
Thank you! I'm inclined to agree with you about big mana creeping back, and Mono G tron still seems to be holding a large metagame share even if I'm not seeing it in paper. I'll probably bring the Mardu version of the deck to GP Sydney in April as opposed to the Bloodbraid version solely for the presence of Blood Moon.
On a related note, Gerry T posted that list last week that had Crumble to Dust as opposed to Fulminators or Molten Rain. I like how hard of an answer it is, but it still gives the Tron player a turn to deploy a huge threat if we get it on our turn 4. What do y'all think about this tech?
I managed to top 8 a local ~40 person 1K this last weekend with this list:
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Bedlam Reveler
1 Hazoret the Fervent
Enchantment
2 Blood Moon
Land
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
1 Manamorphose
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
Sorcery
4 Faithless Looting
3 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Dreadbore
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wear // Tear
2 Collective Brutality
3 Molten Rain
2 Anger of the Gods
The deck ran pretty hot all day up until the top 8. The room was largely fair midrange and aggressive decks and I think there was only 1 ETron and 1 BG Tron.
Anyways, here's a short write up:
Round 1(0-0) - RW Prison (2-0)
Game 1: Opponent won the die roll and stuck a chalice on 1 via spirit guide on my turn zero. I stick a turn 2 Pyromancer and dump out my hand of one drops to get the tokens and run him over.
Game 2: I pick apart his hand and Bloodmoon him (the irony) then cast a Reveler. He hits reveler with Cast Out which I Wear//Tear at the end of his turn to draw three cards and proceed to beat him down.
Round 2 (1-0) - Jeskai Control (2-0)
Game 1: Very grindy game, but I ended up chaining two Revelers to turn the corner.
Game 2: I turn 1 Inquisition and see a hand full of sweepers and Keranos. Sweet. I manage to take control of the game and hit his lands with fulminator to keep him of Keranos. When he finally lands the Keranos, he flips land after land to its trigger and I get there with tokens that he isn't able to remove.
Round 3 (2-0) - Bogles (1-2)
Game 1: He gets the turn zero Leyline and runs me over in about 3 turns.
Game 2: I manage to beat him down with Hazoret.
Game 3: He hits Leyline and Rest In Peace and beats me down before I can get anything online. This was the nightmare scenario where I am low on lands and can't manage to cast the Reveler in my hand because I need to keep flashing back Lingering Souls thus reducing the size of my yard so I just never get operational.
Round 4 (2-1) - Jund (2-0)
I don't remember all the details of this match but it wasn't close. Game one I deployed at least two full cards worth of Lingering Souls and game two I had Hazoret backed up by tokens to dodge a Liliana edict.
Round 5 (3-1) - Jund (2-0)
Game 1: The grind continues! In this game we trade resources and he deploys a turn 4 Bloodbraid that cascades into Liliana the Last Hope which proceeds to eat my Pyro. I counter with a bolt to the Bloodbraid on my turn followed by a hasty Hazoret to kill Lilana, and the game was all downhill for my opponent from there.
Game 2: My opponent didn't see a Bloodmoon game 1, so I leave them in. On a mull to 6 draw the nut hand of Swamp x2, fetch land, Bloodmoon, Looting, Lingering Souls. I stick the turn 3 Bloodmoon after my opponent has fetched and shocked aggressively for 3 lands and also has a Twilight Mire. He proceeds to not draw anything of note and I eventually hit a Reveler and beat him down. He doesn't offer me the hand shake and half throws his deck while he's de-sideboarding. Yikes.
I finish the swiss at 4-1 and place into the top 8 at 6th. The top 8 was Humans, Humans, BW Tokens/Planeswalkers, Jund, Blue Moon, Counters Company, Bogles, and myself.
Top 8 - Jund (1-2)
Game 1: I mull to five and keep a 1 lander with Souls, Souls, Looting, and something else. We trade resources but I pull ahead as he can't answer all the tokens.
Game 2: My opponent hits turn 4 Bloodbraid into Goyf and turn 5 Bloodbraid into Liliana. I didn't stand a chance against that pressure.
Game 3: My opponent keeps 7 and I'm forced to mull to 5 with a single land, a looting, a Reveler, a Pyromancer, and a bolt. I don't hit my second land until turn 4 and draw Revelers on turns 5 & 6, truly heartbreaking.
I chose the deck because I knew it crushed midrange matchups and I expected a lot of Jund. I had considered running Exatraz's list with BBE but I wasn't experienced enough with the build to feel confident in bringing it to an open meta. Overall the deck ran really well and I was happy with my sideboard. If I could do it again I would probably cut a Bloodmoon for a Lilana of the Veil main and cut the side Veil for a Last Hope.
I'm still on it, but there's a lot of tokens/Bogles in my meta.
Arid Mesas are probably where you want to be, the deck is more red than it is black. I currently run 4x Mire, 2x Mesa, 2x Marsh and I rarely have a problem getting the colors/basics I need.
I've been running various iterations of the deck for a while now and I'd say it's pretty well positioned - there are few midrange decks that like to have Lingering Souls cast against them and Bedlam Reveler is just a beating for fair decks of any sort. Big mana is a rough matchup however, and the deck is soft to strong graveyard hate (Leyline, RiP) but luckily neither of those are really out in overwhelming force right now. The deck is definitely skill intensive but also incredibly fun so I'd recommend it. A lot of the components have gone up in price with Jund's recent success, so proxy before you buy - just my two cents.
You always seem to be ahead of the curve