Hi there. I have a small question, which maybe already has been discussed, but i cant find it:
If i win the roll, should i play first or let my opponent play first?
Regards
The majority of matches you take the draw. Sometimes depending on certain situations you may want to take the play (95% of the time this is wrong IMO) but you can. I personally took page out of the Boss's playbook and take the draw every time.
Still happy to see lists 5-0ing in leagues. Anyone have any updates they'd like to share. My 60 MB hasn't changed but I am thinking of replacing my Cannonade tech with a 2nd Spray SB. Just very good against a lot of match-ups and the rise of Gift decks make it a good target for Wits/Angel hard cast.
I never really felt Surgical Extraction was a very strong and always felt it was overly sideboarded. I'd preferably run the likes of 3 Leyline of the Void instead. I as well haven't jumped on the White splash wagon due to consistency. Fragmentize/Souls can be very useful in certain aspects but I'd rather push the Skeins plan against decks that I'd expect Chalice or Sanctity to be dropped as well.
yeah, i experienced those win, but i have to admit that even with mutavault i don't feel 100% in control, i feel like everything could happen from an opponent's top deck :/
Well realistically, can you say you will 100% of the time feel in control of a game. Remember, 8-Rack is considered a tier 2.5/3 build to many. It has some very good match-ups and some very poor match-ups. Of course one can sure up these feelings a bit by mastering the play of this deck against the majority of the meta and with proper sideboarding depending on your meta, but I can safely say there are moments I do not feel 100% in control of a game because an opponent can go off with a top-deck. As a result, I just shrug it off and move on. Magic can do that
This list is very interesting for the White Splash. I'm not the greatest fan because of consistency issues for instance the Courtyard coming in tapped after a Smallpox but again the list can be very good in certain meta's.
well, if your Courtyard enters tapped after a smallpox that means you had already 4 lands in play and you wanna again play your fourth, that is usually avoided in this deck unless some situations (2 mutavaults). This is also the reason this deck tends to play no CC4 drops, reclying the lands in other way, so i can't see the Courtyard to enter tapped very often.
One question: don't you sometimes feel embarassed when you menage to take away their few lands, and they remain stuck with 7 cards in hand and don't draw a land? it happens quite often with affinity for example, and i find hard to choose the game plan : they start having always more cards in hand so your racks/afflictions became useless; in the same time if we don't have a liliana or mutavault we can just draw and play a discard, but we are pretty wasting all the time gained with our opponent in screw.
I really wanna listen what do you think!
This deck does not necessarily mean we win by the effects caused by the Rack or Affliction. It can become multi-tooled by beat down with Mutavaults. The deck can adapt into several things, from dwindling your opponents hand down and slowly sucking their enjoyment of playing or crushing their lands and creatures by effects from smallpox or Lilli and just beating them down with 2/2 lands.
I like the deck, especially sideboard. I'll give it a try playing some leagues in mtgo. I think it could be a good list against Eldrazi Tron @stebolo93
This list is very interesting for the White Splash. I'm not the greatest fan because of consistency issues for instance the Courtyard coming in tapped after a Smallpox but again the list can be very good in certain meta's.
Realistically they are put in against any match-up that turns into a control game.
for our style of playing the deck, almost every game turns into a control game
my question is : would you put the Rats even when you bring bontu's ? i mean, taxes (W or WB) games go long, but for sure you'll bring the bontu's...would you put also the rats? they'll cut removals, but they will keep flickerwisp.
Edit : realized now that they also play Eldrazi Displacer.....ok, no Rats in this matchup!
This is not necessarily true as I tend to pilot the deck more aggressively trying to dwindle much of their hand as possible; however, playing control you find they draw more so this approach is avoided. Dropping Rats against Control decks forces them to have answers to creatures which they boarded out their creature removal.
So against which decks would you side in the rats? And what number do you think is good to play in sideboard?
Control, tron i guess, and?
Control, Tron, and I like to surprise my opponent by playing them Game 3 against Burn. Realistically they are put in against any match-up that turns into a control game. I play 4 in my sideboard, you can drop to 3 if need be but I think the appropriate number is 4.
yesterday i had a small tournament, 17 players 5 turns, won the tournament with 4-1
Won : 2-0 mono W taxes
Loss : 0-2 Eldrazi Tron
Won : 2-0 mono red skred
Won : 2-0 WB eldrazi taxes
Won : 2-1 5c bring to kiki with nahiri
Went first,so satisfacted, i chose playing Tom Ross top4 mainboard but -1 swamp +1 dismember (so 23 lands total, still fine).
In the sideboard instead, i played :
1 fatal push
2 ratchet bomb
2 shadow of doubt
3 delirium skeins
3 bontu's last reckoning
4 pack rat
to have 4 pack rats in the sideboard was quite embarassing, i never sided them, because everytime i brought in the bontu's last reckoning. Maybe against eldrazi tron i could play them, and if i ever drew a bontu i could discard it, if useless.
Anyway against Eldratron i already brought in :
3 bontu's last reckonings
2 ratchet bomb for chalices
3 delirium skeins for both chalices and to bring them to topdeck
but i still find this a hard matchup, and i am quite worried because for sure there will be many on 2nd December in my next tournament (300+ players).
I am really sad, i can't figure out how to defeat that deck, and Classic tron is still worse (even with 2 shadow of doubt).
What do you play in sideboard for this matchup? to me, it seems the hardest matchup because against all other tiers we are well positioned.
(I repat, maybe should i have brought in also the pack rats?)
Tron is and will always be a very difficult match-up for us because of their ability to spit out huge threats very quickly and to the possibility of replacing themselves. There really not much we can do than bringing in our Wipes and skeins to attack them. I would not be down on Rats at all just yet, you didn't see a match-up you'd want them in as they are mainly placed in longer game-plans against the likes of Control. Overall not bad at all, if you expect a larger field then make the changes to the side accordingly to what you expect you will see.
Now, we have to think what is our priority, i mean : to fight Leyline of Sanctity the best creatures are Pack rat and Hunted horror (a tech, doesn't give the tokens to opponent so it's just a 7/7 trample cc2). Probably Pack rat is a more solid card, that can be played against other decks because he is still good even if opponent doesn't play leyline of sanctity and we have to race fast, like Tron decks.
I never tried dark confidant but i can't see it so useful, i mean, life points are so important and we have no way to gain them, and lot of 8 rack games go long, that would mean probably a lost by dark confidant itself.
As draw engine and solid race i always played 1x Asylum visitor and i have to say that always steals those 9 life points to opponent because they see it "useless to kill until any player has 0 cards in hand". I think i'm going to keep it for midrange decks, but i'm not sure i have slots for a second copy.
Last, i see Tom Ross always played 1 or 2 copies of Death's shadow in the SB, and on SCG Premium article (i am subscribed) he said to sideboard them in against Burn and Affinity..no other decks. I think that burn is such a bad matchup even with 2 shadows, and i prefer putting ratchet bombs in for affinity instead of Death's shadow.
Another question : how much is senseless to not play (yeah, i mean completely) graveyard hate? Look at this :
In Tom Ross SCG Article when he did Top4, he played 4 Leyline of the void. But in his sideboard guide, he side in them ONLY against Dredge, Living End, and any sort of reanimator. No Abzan, no Storm, no anything else. In fact, in the next article he wrote :
"I sideboarded heavily against dedicated graveyard decks in Louisville with a full four Leyline of the Voids. I didn't face any, instead only facing decks that only incidentally used the graveyard with Snapcaster Mage, Lingering Souls, or delve cards. For Charlotte I'll only want a singleton Leyline of the Void with some Nihil Spellbombs to interact with graveyards at a minimal cost."
My thoughts are...what if we don't side against those few decks? i mean, dredge is always a lost unless we mulligan until we draw leyline, if we draw it. The same for Living end, and those are decks that no-one play more.
Why don't save those slots for decks much more present in the meta, like adding a third bontu's last reckonings for Eldrazi Tron, Merfolk, Affinity, Elves, any sort of Shadow's deck ? in those 4 slots of graveyard hate we could also play more copies of ratchet bomb and the second copy of shadow of doubt....that you are sure to use against a higher variety of decks!
What do you think?
My two sense on you questions above.
1) Death Shadow in Burn
The reason Death's Shadow is implemented in burn is because we are going to eventually be in a low life total regardless. The side tech comes in because normally burn is going to side out cards like Searing Blaze, so if we bring in DS, your burn opponent is going to face down a heavy 7/7 or even 8/8 creature on the board with likely no blockers (They do not hold back with their creatures let us be honest). Hopefully by then you have done some damage with the rack and have eaten away at their hand. So a simple funeral charm onto the DS and boom that is GG for you. It is an excellent card to bring in, but I also consider bringing in Rats Game 3 against them. They won't be expecting them either, so catching your burn opponent by surprise against a swarm of rats, that can be real damaging to them if they have to start spending burn against creature swarm rather than you.
2) Why we sideboard against decks like Living End if they aren't super relevant?
It's very quite simple... why do we take the chance to auto lose against a deck that can possibly come up. Sure you may say the deck is "dead" but knowing how my luck runs, if I decided to play the other field in a major tournament, I will be matched against 2-3 of these decks that I will just auto lose. The point of the Sideboard is to mitigate the chance of losing to decks that we (a) expect to play or (b) have incredibly bad match-ups with. Sure 15 slots is very limited, but I'd dedicate at least 3 of these slots to 2-3 decks that I will auto lose too every time if I do not play Leyline for.
Results have been very poor and I'm asking myself if I should choose other deck for GP and play 8-Rack just for fun in FNMs. I haven't played other decks but I have a month to test.
My team is playing
P1: Bant CoCo or Humans
P2: Titanshift
P3: ????
Would you play other deck? Which deck?
Okay, so the deck in general is not sought out to be highly competitive against the main field. It absolutely has decent match-ups against some of the tier 1 decks like DS, Control, Titanshift, etc; however, the deck's strongest aspect is the surprise factor it yields. Many do not know how to play against it, and I am sure you are very well aware of this. The issue is the deck is just not as STRONG compared to the consistency of dominating the field than the decks that are listed tier 1.
My opinion is if you are looking to win at all costs, then do not play this deck; however, experience plays a major role. If you feel that your ability to pilot the deck is strong and you know what you are doing then do it, as having advantage of knowing how to run your deck sometimes trumps better decks because you are the better player. Take into example Tom Ross top 4ing at an SCG. Who would've thought that 8-Rack would make it that far? It showed that the ability to pilot the deck well and with a bit of luck, you can make it far.
I play this deck because I love it, it is not because it will yield me incredible tournament results that will prize me out. I'm content with going 5-4 or 4-5 scrubbing out knowing that I played well with the deck. Some days the deck can take the field by storm and some days it does not, but I play it because I love the concept.
Yeah even with the 10th place finish, I disagree with running 21 lands. I guess the Pack Rats are a surprise to the opponent main, but I would not main it. Rats are excellent against the control match-ups post board and can be a surprise game 3 against Burn and even can come in against Tron as you play a different style of attack against them.
Tested a bit today against a U/W/R Approach deck. Split in matches 2-0 each, found that if I got Hazoret on the board it was pretty much GG for my opponent.
Still kept on tinkering with the build, and I FINALLY have decided on what I want to play coming this weekend. I won't be attending ant GP's; however, I will be testing it out against a few decks this weekend inbetween rounds during FNM and Iconic Masters Drafts. I am on-board with the Fiery Cannonade tech, but I am not sure my meta has any Tokens.
I will swap around the 15/1 and 14/2 Land swap between Basic Mountain and Scavenger Grounds. I'm content at the 14/2, but I was drawing pretty poorly last week at the PPTQ (Could just have been a bad day for me).
Additionally, the Desert Red version. Has anyone tried it out yet? I LOVE Hazoret, and it essentially is the Glue that holds this deck together; however, I have seen Desert Red have better gameplay against Energy decks. I'd love to get anyone's input if they have ran it online or even in paper!
The majority of matches you take the draw. Sometimes depending on certain situations you may want to take the play (95% of the time this is wrong IMO) but you can. I personally took page out of the Boss's playbook and take the draw every time.
Well realistically, can you say you will 100% of the time feel in control of a game. Remember, 8-Rack is considered a tier 2.5/3 build to many. It has some very good match-ups and some very poor match-ups. Of course one can sure up these feelings a bit by mastering the play of this deck against the majority of the meta and with proper sideboarding depending on your meta, but I can safely say there are moments I do not feel 100% in control of a game because an opponent can go off with a top-deck. As a result, I just shrug it off and move on. Magic can do that
This deck does not necessarily mean we win by the effects caused by the Rack or Affliction. It can become multi-tooled by beat down with Mutavaults. The deck can adapt into several things, from dwindling your opponents hand down and slowly sucking their enjoyment of playing or crushing their lands and creatures by effects from smallpox or Lilli and just beating them down with 2/2 lands.
This list is very interesting for the White Splash. I'm not the greatest fan because of consistency issues for instance the Courtyard coming in tapped after a Smallpox but again the list can be very good in certain meta's.
This is not necessarily true as I tend to pilot the deck more aggressively trying to dwindle much of their hand as possible; however, playing control you find they draw more so this approach is avoided. Dropping Rats against Control decks forces them to have answers to creatures which they boarded out their creature removal.
Control, Tron, and I like to surprise my opponent by playing them Game 3 against Burn. Realistically they are put in against any match-up that turns into a control game. I play 4 in my sideboard, you can drop to 3 if need be but I think the appropriate number is 4.
Tron is and will always be a very difficult match-up for us because of their ability to spit out huge threats very quickly and to the possibility of replacing themselves. There really not much we can do than bringing in our Wipes and skeins to attack them. I would not be down on Rats at all just yet, you didn't see a match-up you'd want them in as they are mainly placed in longer game-plans against the likes of Control. Overall not bad at all, if you expect a larger field then make the changes to the side accordingly to what you expect you will see.
My two sense on you questions above.
1) Death Shadow in Burn
The reason Death's Shadow is implemented in burn is because we are going to eventually be in a low life total regardless. The side tech comes in because normally burn is going to side out cards like Searing Blaze, so if we bring in DS, your burn opponent is going to face down a heavy 7/7 or even 8/8 creature on the board with likely no blockers (They do not hold back with their creatures let us be honest). Hopefully by then you have done some damage with the rack and have eaten away at their hand. So a simple funeral charm onto the DS and boom that is GG for you. It is an excellent card to bring in, but I also consider bringing in Rats Game 3 against them. They won't be expecting them either, so catching your burn opponent by surprise against a swarm of rats, that can be real damaging to them if they have to start spending burn against creature swarm rather than you.
2) Why we sideboard against decks like Living End if they aren't super relevant?
It's very quite simple... why do we take the chance to auto lose against a deck that can possibly come up. Sure you may say the deck is "dead" but knowing how my luck runs, if I decided to play the other field in a major tournament, I will be matched against 2-3 of these decks that I will just auto lose. The point of the Sideboard is to mitigate the chance of losing to decks that we (a) expect to play or (b) have incredibly bad match-ups with. Sure 15 slots is very limited, but I'd dedicate at least 3 of these slots to 2-3 decks that I will auto lose too every time if I do not play Leyline for.
Okay, so the deck in general is not sought out to be highly competitive against the main field. It absolutely has decent match-ups against some of the tier 1 decks like DS, Control, Titanshift, etc; however, the deck's strongest aspect is the surprise factor it yields. Many do not know how to play against it, and I am sure you are very well aware of this. The issue is the deck is just not as STRONG compared to the consistency of dominating the field than the decks that are listed tier 1.
My opinion is if you are looking to win at all costs, then do not play this deck; however, experience plays a major role. If you feel that your ability to pilot the deck is strong and you know what you are doing then do it, as having advantage of knowing how to run your deck sometimes trumps better decks because you are the better player. Take into example Tom Ross top 4ing at an SCG. Who would've thought that 8-Rack would make it that far? It showed that the ability to pilot the deck well and with a bit of luck, you can make it far.
I play this deck because I love it, it is not because it will yield me incredible tournament results that will prize me out. I'm content with going 5-4 or 4-5 scrubbing out knowing that I played well with the deck. Some days the deck can take the field by storm and some days it does not, but I play it because I love the concept.
1x Ahn-Crop Crasher
4x Bomat Courier
4x Earthshaker Khenra
2x Harsh Mentor
4x Hazoret the Fervent
3x Kari Zev, Skyship Raider
4x Rampaging Ferocidon
4x Soul-Scar Mage
14x Mountain
4x Ramunap Ruins
2x Scavenger Grounds
4x Sunscorched Desert
Instant (10)
2x Abrade
4x Lightning Strike
4x Shock
2x Abrade
2x Aethersphere Harvester
2x Chandra's Defeat
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1x Fiery Cannonade
2x Glorybringer
1x Harsh Mentor
1x Magma Spray
2x Pia Nalaar
I will swap around the 15/1 and 14/2 Land swap between Basic Mountain and Scavenger Grounds. I'm content at the 14/2, but I was drawing pretty poorly last week at the PPTQ (Could just have been a bad day for me).
Additionally, the Desert Red version. Has anyone tried it out yet? I LOVE Hazoret, and it essentially is the Glue that holds this deck together; however, I have seen Desert Red have better gameplay against Energy decks. I'd love to get anyone's input if they have ran it online or even in paper!