Do you sideboard out 4x Smallpox if you board in your creature package?
The answer to this question is it depends; however, the majority of the time, the answer is no. Pox can completely wreck an opponents gameplan if they get hit early on. creatures may not necessarily hit the floor early, as you still want to stay on course with the decks overall plan of discard. Once you notice your opponent seems to be falling behind because of pox or discard, then drop your creature and begin wrecking havoc on them.
Haven't read through the forum, but would it be okay to get rid of small pox. Add ensnaring bridge. And splash green for ancient stirrings.helos you find your lock and kill. And than we have a green splash for decay, pulse . I'm fairly new to the deck. But since ancient stirrings is just crazy, I was wondering if it fit.
So this is a very common question when it comes to the deck itself, what type of strategy you want to implement to slow your opponent down. The Ensnaring Bridge build is common; however, many and the majority agree that the Mono-Black Pox build is the most consistent and effective build. This does not mean that Bridge is not good, but just not as effective. A Green splash does exist for Decay, Stirrings, and even sideboard cards like Naturalize. My advice to you, test it out and see how you like it. It is most important that the deck suits your style of play, and not the rest. Personally with all Modern and even Constructed formats, the deck that you can master and compliment your style of play the most will majority of the time show you more success.
What does everyone thing of 3 Dark confidant in SB? Against trobulesome decks that are hard to discard like any variants of Tron. And also Lantern control, considering its rise in popularity. Opponents will side out most of the creature removal, making bob stick to the board. Plus it acts as an wincon against lantern with no bridges postboard.
Bob is an option; however, it mainly presents itself in the Bridge version of 8-Rack. I very rarely see it being played, but there are other options you can bring in. For example, Pack Rat or Asylum Visitor is very popular. I am on the Pack Rat option as if they do not have an answer to deal with Pack Rat, then it will be over very soon for my opponent.
Lantern Control shouldn't ever be a problem against us period. Game 1 we basically already have them doing what we want them to do, so if we drop the Rack or Shrieking Affliction on them, then it is pretty much good game. After sideboards, we bring in our creature package and a flex card while removing our own Creature Removal (Dismember, Fatal, Bontu's).
If you check my list, I run 5 creatures in my sideboard: 4x Pack Rat, 1x Death's Shadow. You try to keep your creature package around 4-5. Sometimes you see people running 2x Death's Shadow and 2x Asylum Visitor others run 4x Pack Rat lone.
Sorry to hear about the performance, but hey that is how we learn to play the deck! I agree, the Smallpox plan is clearly the way to go because of the shear amount of artifact hate that will become boarded in. Smallpox has a severely crippling effect early on to many decks and it is one of the ways we try and beat Tron with it. I understand why Bridge would be appealing with the amount of aggro builds and creature heavy builds in the modern meta; however, I found maining 1 Bontu's is a necessity along with the Pox plan. It appears also that CB may not be what you want to run with in the MB if you do not expect a lot of burn. How did the Rat plan go for you when you did play them out?
Collective Brutality is a very nice card in my deck because it helps me to run out of cards for bridge if needed and is a (nonpremiun) targeted removal. In nonbridge builds I prefer Collective Brutality in the sideboard.
Rat plan has worked pretty well for me always. In GP Madrid I sideboarded rats vs Abzan in second games choosing to start and they gave me a win. I also used them vs Bogles because of they are nice against Leyline of Sanctity and would have used vs The Rock if I would have lost a game and could play first.
Yeah, I've found that with the shear amount of Aggro and builds that are creature heavy, Bontu's even with the timewalk is such a beating for our opponent that we find ourselves ahead 90% of the time. I've pitched both my CB's to the Side which I agree with you, very good against Burn builds, but pretty much it. Do you have an idea on the Pox list you are looking to run?
If not, feel free to check my list in my signature for a general basis to the deck. There are a few flex slots you can play around with along with your sideboard to fit your meta, but the general skeleton to the deck is there.
Excellent run with the deck. The deck itself looks pretty stock outside Infernal Tutor. I can see your argument to dropping down to 2 Thoughtseize, my question is why not replace the 3rd Thoughtseize with 1 Blackmail instead of the 3rd Funeral Charm? I also can see your concern with the greediness of 4 Mutavaults/4 Urborg, but don't you think that Mutavaults are very important and extra Urborgs can be pitched if need be?
Thanks!
didnt think of blackmail, i will have to try it
3/3 instead of 4/4 its to avoid drawing multiples early, when you have only seen 1/6 of the deck and might be low on lands, maybe its easier to run 4/4 with 24 lands
But wouldn't you argue that Mutavault at the very least is one of your win-conditions? Mutavault's versatility is so strong for us against several of these meta decks. Trading a Champion for a Mutavault, setting a blocker for Lilli, Beat down? I can see why you'd drop to 3 Urborg as it can at times be cloggy, but I really believe 4 Mutavaults are very necessary.
11-3 at gp madrid with 8rack! good for 11th place, it was teams but my record was also 11-3
Congrats man!!
I played the same event with a very poor record: 4-5
Finally, I played a Ensnaring Bridge version, removing most of removal as we commented here. I tested in mtgo several leagues before the event and had decent results finishing 3-2 in most of them.
Played against:
R1: Abzan (0-2)
R2: Storm (2-0)
R3: Abzan (1-2) - Rat plan won me the second game
R4: Bogles (1-2) - really missed smallpox here
R5: Jeskay (1-2)
R6: Eldrazi Tron (2-0)
R7: Merfolk (1-2) - Don't let them play first if you go on the bridge plan, I could have won this match just playing first.
R8: The Rock (2-0)
R9: Scapeshift (2-1)
I always chose to draw first except when I went into the rat plan after sideboarding.
Seems pretty obvious that Smallpox plan is the way to go instead bridge plan but I think the main problem I had, were some mistakes I made.
Sorry to hear about the performance, but hey that is how we learn to play the deck! I agree, the Smallpox plan is clearly the way to go because of the shear amount of artifact hate that will become boarded in. Smallpox has a severely crippling effect early on to many decks and it is one of the ways we try and beat Tron with it. I understand why Bridge would be appealing with the amount of aggro builds and creature heavy builds in the modern meta; however, I found maining 1 Bontu's is a necessity along with the Pox plan. It appears also that CB may not be what you want to run with in the MB if you do not expect a lot of burn. How did the Rat plan go for you when you did play them out?
played against:
5 storm
2 titanshift
2 ur breach
2 humans
1 affinity
1 nauseam
1 sultai white shadow
so basicaly good pairings overall and got rewarded for ignoring dredge and tron
the losses where against storm, nauseam and ur breach, they are favourable but those where the rounds where i took more mulligans, missed landrops or couldnt cast spells because of mutavault
overall im happy with the list, thoughtseize is very good turns 1-2 but later in the game you cant afford the 2 life in a race or to waste mana and not making him discard a card because the 1 or 2 cards he has in hand are lands
i think 4 muta + 4 urborg its to greedy and 24 lands are to many
infernal tutor as a one of was quite good, helps a lot in topdeck mode and its fine without hellbent
4 skeins and 4 reckoning might be 1 to many because sometimes you just want 2 or 3, but the 4th copy its gold when you need to see one of them in order to win the game (white leyline, humans, etc)
i liked the list but i could see myself cutting the 3rd brutality for a packrat or something
Excellent run with the deck. The deck itself looks pretty stock outside Infernal Tutor. I can see your argument to dropping down to 2 Thoughtseize, my question is why not replace the 3rd Thoughtseize with 1 Blackmail instead of the 3rd Funeral Charm? I also can see your concern with the greediness of 4 Mutavaults/4 Urborg, but don't you think that Mutavaults are very important and extra Urborgs can be pitched if need be?
3 Rack players just topped 8 at a SCG classic. I feel like the deck is a good dark horse deck, but could probably use a card or two to really push it to the edge of consideration for t2 or t1.5 in meta decks....The question is, what does the deck need? a more versatile method of discard? or a 3rd rack outlet?
The decks that are top 8ing as well seem to be more unconventional lists as you notice. Running 4 Rats MB or Nezumi Shortfang (Which is a very interesting tech imo). I do feel this deck is a very strong darkhorse; however, it plays a lot into your opponents inability to understand how to play around the deck that makes this so strong. To answer you thought, we need to think about what makes this deck struggle at times and against who? This deck appears to struggle against aggressive board presences or major ramp or enchantment/artifacts like Leyline or Chalice. Even with Smallpox, there really is nothing we can do against a deck that drops Tron on turn 3 or has a swarm of Merfolk/Elves/Affinity. We were granted the cheap sweeper with a "dehydrating" effect in lands not tapping, but what else would we need? If there may be a more versatile method in removing such effects like a cheap black artifact/enchantment removal we could put in rather than splash that might help or if there was possibly another land destruction technique that we could implement (highly unlikely this will ever be produced) that might work.
Shota Yasooka, a control player, used Ramunap Red at World Magic Cup. this is the final round vs U/W Cycling.
how masterful is that?
I learned a lot about how to play that match-up from watching that game 3. The ability for Shota to maneuver in such a way with an Aggro deck to force his opponent to play to what he wanted was incredible. This also showed how incredibly powerful Bomat is if it becomes unchecked for 3-4 turns. Resetting our hand after applying immense amount of pressure is phenomenal.
Harvester is a very difficult card for U/W Cycling to deal with. It does not die to Fumigate, It does not become tapped to Authority, It does not get pinged by your own Ferocidon, and it forces your opponent to chump with Drakes in the air. I believe the only way it can is by Cast Out or Settle, but with experience you should know when your opponent is holding a Settle and should be able to play around it.
Another interesting aspect that I would like to point out here. It appears many have decided int he Magic Cup to go back to the 3+ Crasher lists, yet I find Ferocidon to be very very very key in many situations. What are all your thoughts? I run a 4-1 split of Ferocidon/Crasher MB and really haven't regretted the switch. Ferocidon is much less of a dead draw, it applies pressure to your opponent when dropped by its effect, and forces your opponent to deal with it right away and cannot die to simple shocks/magma sprays.
So, I've been having several games (including a few at GP Portland) where I was severely mana screwed or flooded, often with no Hazoret or Khenra to sink mana in to. Has anyone tried running a couple of Treasure Map, to scry and draw extras, much in the same way that the Desert Red decks are doing? What about Tormenting Voice?
I'd say it is just bad luck, especially if you have had both screw and flood, and that Treasure Map is too slow and Tormenting Voice is just bad, you'd always want a creature or burn spell instead.
Still happy to see lists 5-0ing in leagues. Anyone have any updates they'd like to share. My 60 MB hasn't changed but I am thinking of replacing my Cannonade tech with a 2nd Spray SB. Just very good against a lot of match-ups and the rise of Gift decks make it a good target for Wits/Angel hard cast.
I have updated my list to have a 4-1 split of Ferocidon and Crasher and 2x Harsh Mentor MD. It has worked out very well. The cards are better situated for my local meta. I have been impressed how much extra reach the Ferocidon provides against Temur/4c Energy. The damage adds up and even if they start to stabilize the dinosaur puts them into tight position (i.e getting into burn-range). I have gone 3-1 twice in local tournaments with the updated version.
One difference is that I run 23 lands, as I do not have any Chandra's and this gives ma slot to run 1 MD Consuming Fervor. I still think the card is underappreciated. On the play it can often win the game as the pressure is too much. I have also won games by drawing it late game (by making a Pia thopter a formidable evasive beater). Still looking forward to make a Ferocidon into a 6/6 menace.
I have found UW Approach to be a difficult match-up. Game one the Ramunap deck is definitely in favor. Especially with MD Ferocidons. But post board it gets very difficult with all the hate they are able to bring in.
I sideboard in most of my creatures. [Btw, I think Pia Nalaar is a must. I have been surprised that different side-boarding guides don't recommend it. Two bodies with the chance to pump can be difficult if they don't have a way to deal with Pia. You don't need to over extend your board with threats as you can deploy damage with pumping the token.] This is the match up where I miss Chandra. But perhaps you guys have some other recommendations on how to approach it? I have one Vance in the SB, but that card is often too slow. Some cards I have been considering:
Hope of Ghirapur? I have not tried it yet. I don't really know when would I want to sac it. T4ONthePlay to be able to cast another threat (like Hazoret) post combat? But they usually have outs in Cast Out, or they will just Settle the Wreckage in the next combat. T5ONthePlay to avoid a Fumigate the turn after? It just seems so conditional and sacing a creature that you are pressuring their life total with does not sound that good either.
I playtested a bit before FNM last night against a buddy of mine who runs U/W Approach. I ended up going 2-1 against it, and noticed that my only game loss was due to severe land color screw. If I had landed 1 Red Source within the first 5-6 turns the game would've been over quickly. Outside of that, it ran very well in my opinion. The Ferocidon at 4 in the MB is excellent, forces him to utilize his removal/counters which in my opinion if you play very smart, Hazoret becomes lethal to them if they don't have an answer immediately.
the pox of legacy plays with 25 lands. eight are colorless. in modern we could not try 4 muta 2 GQ? 4/4 I know it's very risky
Even with the 4 Urborg's, I wouldn't touch more than 4 Colorless lands. You have to consider the amount of DOUBLE Black spells you play (3 Wrench Mind, 4 Lilli's, 4 Small Pox, Dismember (Possibly)). I've seen a list SB in 1-2 GQ if need be, but wouldn't you rather just play Mage SB then?
So, I've been having several games (including a few at GP Portland) where I was severely mana screwed or flooded, often with no Hazoret or Khenra to sink mana in to. Has anyone tried running a couple of Treasure Map, to scry and draw extras, much in the same way that the Desert Red decks are doing? What about Tormenting Voice?
Just way to slow of a card in my opinion to run period. The point of this deck is board presence and if we are sacrificing a turn to draw or play a map then we often find ourselves behind. The reason Map did work in the Desert build was because the build turned into more of a Midrange approach than Aggro.
Well I'd firstly point out that the list above is mixing two different routes with Bridge and the Non-Bridge Package of (Funeral Charm/Dismember/Fatal Push)... I think firstly removing Affliction is a mistake. Secondly, if you are wanting to run Bridge you need to remove the Package that Ross uses instead of Bridge. I think that might be where it's going wrong first before discussing whether we go on the play or not.
I haven´t removed affliction, not sure if you were talking about other card.
I usually play 2 Bitterblossom instead of Funeral Charm but I wanted to test the mix you are pointing, I went 2-3 in mtgo competitive league with it. I have tested with Lingering Souls instead too.
Would you play without any removal if you were playing Ensnaring Bridge? I think you need at least 2/3 Fatal Push/Dismember. Not sure about Smallpox in bridge constructions. Would love to hear about the list you would play if you wanted to play Ensnaring Bridge.
I haven't ever ran Bridge, but from lists that I do see the optimal option is either you run the Removal Package with Pox or your run Bridge. Fatal Push is necessary at 2+ in either lists, but Dismember/Funeral Charm/CB/Small Pox all become unnecessary in Bridge builds. See the issue for me in playing Bridge is that the card is not as punishing as Small Pox can be and post sideboard, the card becomes almost utterly useless when they bring in their artifact removal heavily because of the Rack as well.
As for lists, it would be similar but imagine a list without Dismember, Funeral Charm, or Small Pox. Bitterblossom is an option to play to along with Ensnaring Bridge. You might also consider upping the land count to 24 if you aren't running 24 lands because of the increase in curve.
Well I'd firstly point out that the list above is mixing two different routes with Bridge and the Non-Bridge Package of (Funeral Charm/Dismember/Fatal Push)... I think firstly removing Affliction is a mistake. Secondly, if you are wanting to run Bridge you need to remove the Package that Ross uses instead of Bridge. I think that might be where it's going wrong first before discussing whether we go on the play or not.
The answer to this question is it depends; however, the majority of the time, the answer is no. Pox can completely wreck an opponents gameplan if they get hit early on. creatures may not necessarily hit the floor early, as you still want to stay on course with the decks overall plan of discard. Once you notice your opponent seems to be falling behind because of pox or discard, then drop your creature and begin wrecking havoc on them.
So this is a very common question when it comes to the deck itself, what type of strategy you want to implement to slow your opponent down. The Ensnaring Bridge build is common; however, many and the majority agree that the Mono-Black Pox build is the most consistent and effective build. This does not mean that Bridge is not good, but just not as effective. A Green splash does exist for Decay, Stirrings, and even sideboard cards like Naturalize. My advice to you, test it out and see how you like it. It is most important that the deck suits your style of play, and not the rest. Personally with all Modern and even Constructed formats, the deck that you can master and compliment your style of play the most will majority of the time show you more success.
Bob is an option; however, it mainly presents itself in the Bridge version of 8-Rack. I very rarely see it being played, but there are other options you can bring in. For example, Pack Rat or Asylum Visitor is very popular. I am on the Pack Rat option as if they do not have an answer to deal with Pack Rat, then it will be over very soon for my opponent.
Lantern Control shouldn't ever be a problem against us period. Game 1 we basically already have them doing what we want them to do, so if we drop the Rack or Shrieking Affliction on them, then it is pretty much good game. After sideboards, we bring in our creature package and a flex card while removing our own Creature Removal (Dismember, Fatal, Bontu's).
If you check my list, I run 5 creatures in my sideboard: 4x Pack Rat, 1x Death's Shadow. You try to keep your creature package around 4-5. Sometimes you see people running 2x Death's Shadow and 2x Asylum Visitor others run 4x Pack Rat lone.
Yeah, I've found that with the shear amount of Aggro and builds that are creature heavy, Bontu's even with the timewalk is such a beating for our opponent that we find ourselves ahead 90% of the time. I've pitched both my CB's to the Side which I agree with you, very good against Burn builds, but pretty much it. Do you have an idea on the Pox list you are looking to run?
If not, feel free to check my list in my signature for a general basis to the deck. There are a few flex slots you can play around with along with your sideboard to fit your meta, but the general skeleton to the deck is there.
But wouldn't you argue that Mutavault at the very least is one of your win-conditions? Mutavault's versatility is so strong for us against several of these meta decks. Trading a Champion for a Mutavault, setting a blocker for Lilli, Beat down? I can see why you'd drop to 3 Urborg as it can at times be cloggy, but I really believe 4 Mutavaults are very necessary.
Sorry to hear about the performance, but hey that is how we learn to play the deck! I agree, the Smallpox plan is clearly the way to go because of the shear amount of artifact hate that will become boarded in. Smallpox has a severely crippling effect early on to many decks and it is one of the ways we try and beat Tron with it. I understand why Bridge would be appealing with the amount of aggro builds and creature heavy builds in the modern meta; however, I found maining 1 Bontu's is a necessity along with the Pox plan. It appears also that CB may not be what you want to run with in the MB if you do not expect a lot of burn. How did the Rat plan go for you when you did play them out?
Excellent run with the deck. The deck itself looks pretty stock outside Infernal Tutor. I can see your argument to dropping down to 2 Thoughtseize, my question is why not replace the 3rd Thoughtseize with 1 Blackmail instead of the 3rd Funeral Charm? I also can see your concern with the greediness of 4 Mutavaults/4 Urborg, but don't you think that Mutavaults are very important and extra Urborgs can be pitched if need be?
Ferocidon and possible sideboard tech of Invigorated Rampage
The decks that are top 8ing as well seem to be more unconventional lists as you notice. Running 4 Rats MB or Nezumi Shortfang (Which is a very interesting tech imo). I do feel this deck is a very strong darkhorse; however, it plays a lot into your opponents inability to understand how to play around the deck that makes this so strong. To answer you thought, we need to think about what makes this deck struggle at times and against who? This deck appears to struggle against aggressive board presences or major ramp or enchantment/artifacts like Leyline or Chalice. Even with Smallpox, there really is nothing we can do against a deck that drops Tron on turn 3 or has a swarm of Merfolk/Elves/Affinity. We were granted the cheap sweeper with a "dehydrating" effect in lands not tapping, but what else would we need? If there may be a more versatile method in removing such effects like a cheap black artifact/enchantment removal we could put in rather than splash that might help or if there was possibly another land destruction technique that we could implement (highly unlikely this will ever be produced) that might work.
I learned a lot about how to play that match-up from watching that game 3. The ability for Shota to maneuver in such a way with an Aggro deck to force his opponent to play to what he wanted was incredible. This also showed how incredibly powerful Bomat is if it becomes unchecked for 3-4 turns. Resetting our hand after applying immense amount of pressure is phenomenal.
Harvester is a very difficult card for U/W Cycling to deal with. It does not die to Fumigate, It does not become tapped to Authority, It does not get pinged by your own Ferocidon, and it forces your opponent to chump with Drakes in the air. I believe the only way it can is by Cast Out or Settle, but with experience you should know when your opponent is holding a Settle and should be able to play around it.
Another interesting aspect that I would like to point out here. It appears many have decided int he Magic Cup to go back to the 3+ Crasher lists, yet I find Ferocidon to be very very very key in many situations. What are all your thoughts? I run a 4-1 split of Ferocidon/Crasher MB and really haven't regretted the switch. Ferocidon is much less of a dead draw, it applies pressure to your opponent when dropped by its effect, and forces your opponent to deal with it right away and cannot die to simple shocks/magma sprays.
I playtested a bit before FNM last night against a buddy of mine who runs U/W Approach. I ended up going 2-1 against it, and noticed that my only game loss was due to severe land color screw. If I had landed 1 Red Source within the first 5-6 turns the game would've been over quickly. Outside of that, it ran very well in my opinion. The Ferocidon at 4 in the MB is excellent, forces him to utilize his removal/counters which in my opinion if you play very smart, Hazoret becomes lethal to them if they don't have an answer immediately.
Even with the 4 Urborg's, I wouldn't touch more than 4 Colorless lands. You have to consider the amount of DOUBLE Black spells you play (3 Wrench Mind, 4 Lilli's, 4 Small Pox, Dismember (Possibly)). I've seen a list SB in 1-2 GQ if need be, but wouldn't you rather just play Mage SB then?
Just way to slow of a card in my opinion to run period. The point of this deck is board presence and if we are sacrificing a turn to draw or play a map then we often find ourselves behind. The reason Map did work in the Desert build was because the build turned into more of a Midrange approach than Aggro.
I haven't ever ran Bridge, but from lists that I do see the optimal option is either you run the Removal Package with Pox or your run Bridge. Fatal Push is necessary at 2+ in either lists, but Dismember/Funeral Charm/CB/Small Pox all become unnecessary in Bridge builds. See the issue for me in playing Bridge is that the card is not as punishing as Small Pox can be and post sideboard, the card becomes almost utterly useless when they bring in their artifact removal heavily because of the Rack as well.
As for lists, it would be similar but imagine a list without Dismember, Funeral Charm, or Small Pox. Bitterblossom is an option to play to along with Ensnaring Bridge. You might also consider upping the land count to 24 if you aren't running 24 lands because of the increase in curve.