Ah ok, I was predominately concerned with Valakut so I thought Tec or GQ may help out there, but it comes at the cost of 1 countersquall and on second thoughts maybe having that 2nd countersquall is probably better against Valakut than the land destruction since I can tutor it and stop any breach shenanigans that instantly turn Valakut on.
If I try to execute the gameplan of countering their big spells, and using discard from Esper Charm and Kolaghan's Command to unburden their hand, in theory they could take quite some time to get Valakut live which can give me enough time to secure a Torrential Gearhulk flashing back some discard and put them on a 4 turn clock. Good thing he's got a big butt to dodge Valakut.
In that case I wouldn't mind sticking with the 2 Countersquall then. Reading the other threads Esper and UW control, there seems to be a general pattern I'm noticing of people rocking 2 Negate in their lists these days. And reading their game play reports, and even the R/G Ponza thread, it seems Negate has been working well against the big mana decks and against ponza which is good to hear as a control player those decks are quite miserable to play against.
Cheers for those sideboard targets. I really like Wear // Tear, I may put that in the board actually. Crackling Doom is nice but I feel I've got Bogles covered with 2 Blessed Alliance and Hide // Seek, I've never really understood how to use this card? Is it like an extraction effect or something?
Sweet, would be great to hear some tourney reports from ya when you get to bring the deck to FNM. What Gearhulk's did you get? MS2 or original?
Stymied Hopes isn't really seeing play and that's the closes comparison I can think of. Mana TIthe is also much more mana efficient at only W and doesn't see much play and that card is literally Force Spike in Modern. I'd say Remand is going to be in most cases the better cantrip/counter at the 2 mana slot since it hits anything. If only Arcane Denial was playable....
Solid reasoning, you've convinced me to stay put overall.
Looking through my list, I've got an answer to every RESOLVED permanent in the format:
Atifacts - K-Command
Enchantments - Esper Charm
Creatures - Removal
Planeswalkers - No specific walker removal spell but burn goes a long way with special mention to tar pits, flash creatures and cryptic command
Non-basic lands aka Valakut - NOTHING!!!
Thought I might try playing a 27th land drop as a Tectonic Edge. Replacing 1 countersquall and treating the tec edge as a 'spell'. Has a cute combo with the maindeck Surgical Extraction too.
Was considering 1 of the only 2 instant speed land destruction spells in the format - Wrecking Ball, but think it may be a better idea to add a 27th land drop since the deck is mana hungry and Tectonic Edge or even Ghost Quarter would only be used as a LD spell against Valakut and in theory shouldn't effect my mana base since it's really a bonus land drop.
Fetid Pools - Am certain this is going to replace my 2nd Watery Grave. Originally replaced the 3rd Creeping Tar Pit with the 2nd Watery Grave due to noticeable lack of being able to fetch for BB Consume the Meek. Thing is, I was ok with the 3rd Tar Pit coming into play tapped. Fetid Pools definitely seems right up my alley and if I were to play the 27th land, being able to cycle could be quite important in case I get the odd bout of mana flood. I think 2 Tar Pit and 2 check lands give me enough protection against Choke but I'm not sure if I'd go any lower that 4 non-island U sources just out of respect for the odd Choke.
Cast Out - What's your thoughts? Is this mainboard material here? I'm considering playing 1 in the main, but am on the fence. Anguished Unmaking has been really good out of the side, but the life loss is too significant for the main, but this on the other hand can cycle which means I'd probably never side this out against Affinity or Burn either since for only W, it's going to get us closer to that removal/counter we need. Considering replacing 1 Kolaghan's Command for it since it will hit artifacts too, but more importantly, is going to be an actual efficient way to deal with a resolved Narset Transcendent, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and Karn Liberated which are require 2+ for 1's if we want to Lightning Bolt them out.
Serum Vision has performed very well in long and moderately long games. It helps hunting and finding an answer, keeping the land flowing and drawong the right half of the deck.
Well if Serum Visions is performing well in the longer games, wouldn't you be better off running Mystical Teachings instead? 4 SV in a 25/26 land build equates to about 1-2 MT in a 25-26 land build I reckon. This would give you 1-2 extra slots for those removal spells while also making certain you don't get the wrong half of your deck since you'd basically be able to choose anything you want besides Supreme Verdict but if the games already going longer than things are obviously going pretty well.
Instead of digging '3' at sorcery speed you're basically digging '60' at instant speed and holding up a counter too. Obviously, SV will shape your hand better in the early game than MT ever will but based on your statement of SV being great when the game goes long, I'd think MT would be "strictly" better in that regard.
I think you're right. I tend to beat myself up over every little thing and get tilted far too easily which is something I'm trying to work on, as it can be dangerous, especially when playing control. Ultimately I think it was just a string of bad luck since it only lasted 1-2 days of playing on mtgo but it was such a drastic change which got me hyper confused. Feeling more fresh today, I jumped back on and played 3 matches today while at the coffee shop, one against Kiki-Chord, one against Bogles and one against Treefolk Tribal (I kid you not, I found this harder than Bant Eldrazi, think a whole deck of 5/5's, just without any real disruption.) I was in a much more positive mind set and wouldn't you know it, I ended up hitting 3 lands by turn 3 each match, did my thing and won those 3 match ups with the same deck list I was running when I had my big whinge the other day. Take the good with the bad I guess, you can't win em all.
Thinking about what you said about worrying, I did some mental homework from my testing so far and crunched the number of my particular list and came to some conclusions about my card choices:
3 Snap - I'd like 4, but had to cut 1 to fit in more cards due to the tutor effect of the deck. I've tested 2, and felt it was fine for a more harder controlling list, but it wasn't aggressive enough in testing as I play red specifically for an aggressive approach when I feel it's needed. I feel 3 is the minimum I can go for my list.
3 Bolt - Want 4 also but same deal with mystical teachings so I shaved 1. Any lower than 3 for my list isn't aggressive enough to be able to provide enough reach. I choose bolt over Fatal Push for this specific reason and I could see playing less bolts if I played push, but then I'd probably cut red tbh, but I like bolts too much. So 3 has been good enough in testing.
3 Path - 3 has been just right in testing. I've never really wanted the 4th, I'd prefer an edict effect like Blessed Alliance over the 4th Path just for stuff like Bogles and Geist. Testing against Bant and Eldrazi Tron, I would not want any less than 3 as they tend to stretch out the Paths so I feel 3 is a fairly high quantity to deal with lots of big threats and snap can flashback them to better match their topdecks.
3 Charm - I wouldn't mind 4, but 3 has been good enough in testing. I've gone down to 2 copies before but definitely felt the lack of chaining charm into charm which can take over some match ups. At 3 copies, in testing I've been able to usually see the first 2 moderately early, while being able to either draw the 3rd later on, or tutor the 3rd copy when needed. I feel 3 is where I want to be with this card.
3 Remand - I tested 2 Remand, 1 Spell Snare for a little while and as good as snare is, I just found in testing that I was lacking that extra cantrip the 3rd remand provided. Bumped them back up to 3 remand and instantly felt more consistent hitting that opening hand remand to get the ball rolling. Wouldn't mind 4 copies but I think 3 is good enough as I am trying to adhere to the tutor effect of the deck which means a bigger variety of cards to play.
3 Cryptic - I've always felt 4 was a tad too clunky and I generally always trimmed a cryptic in sideboarding most matches. 3 has been noticeably less clunky and I always feel I have enough copies to stop nearly anything. In testing (5c), I cut down to 2 and replaced the 3rd with a Mystic Snake, but just missing that extra cantrip that cryptic provided was enough for me to go back up to 3 copies.
2 Mystical Teachings - Never really wanted a 3rd teachings in testing. I do the teachings for teachings, and that has been more than good enough, I just have never wanted to teachings for teachings for teachings. In theory, I'd love to play the full 4 Mystical Teachings, but between that and Cryptic Command I find it just clunkifies the curve so I'm happy with 2 copies.
2 Kolaghan's Command - In theory, I would like to cut down to 1 copy but in testing, it's just been too good in too many match ups to justify playing the 2nd. A common trend when testing has been naturally drawing the 1st K-Command, but needing to teachings for the 2nd. This card for mine is really Mystical Teachings 3-4, but it lowers the curve a bit while offering a maindeck answer to artifacts.
2 Blessed Alliance - Started off testing 1 copy, but soon upped them to 2 copies and haven't looked back. It's surprisingly been one of my stand out cards and does way more work than what an edict should do. I noticed a fair difference between 1 and 2 copies of the card against decks like Burn and Bogles, and feel that I really want to be at 2 copies these days with big and hard to interact with dudes running amuck.
2 Lightning Helix - An odd choice but in testing, felt that 1 was too little. And by that I mean lacking that extra removal and lifegain card against aggro. 1 copy also wasn't aggressive enough to provide enough reach and by adding the 2nd copy, my reach is more threatening as well as giving me that extra bit of life gain which I feel is important when venturing into a 4th colour.
1 Kozilek's Return/ 1 Consume the Meek - Split the instant speed sweepers 1 a piece. Been happy with both cards and wouldn't want to play any more than 1 of each in testing.
1 Torrential Gearhulk/ 1 Elder Deep-Fiend - My 2 main win 5/6 body win conditions. I think it's criminal not to play Gearhulk in a deck with only instants in it and instead of playing the 2nd Gearhulk, I opted to go with Deep-Fiend as an extra sweeper effect which triggers off Kozilek's Return for uncounterable 5 damage. Been happy with the split.
1 Sphinx's Revelation - Really sold on just 1 copy with Mystical Teachings in the deck. Don't feel like I need another.
1 Surgical Extraction - Been happy with the misers extraction in the main. In there for Dredge and Loam decks but has come in handy against nearly any deck since every deck has a graveyard to some extent. Wouldn't dare play more than 1 though.
26 lands - Recent change was cutting the 3rd Tar Pit for a 2nd Watery Grave as in testing, I got screwed on Consume the Meek a number of times, due to not being able to grab a second "Island/Swamp" off of my Blue fetches. So far, this has remedied that deck building flaw.
Now all those add up to 58 cards which leaves me with 2 "flex slots." I originally as stated previously played 2 cantrips in these flex spots Hallowed Moonlight and Shadow of Doubt. Interesting thing was, I tended to always side these cards out after game 1. Which really doesn't make sense since it's actually a card draw card which I don't think should ever really be sided out as card draw is what makes the control deck tick. Obviously the effect is pretty niche, but somewhat general at the same time. But, I found in testing, that by cutting the 2 cantrips from the main, I actually never sided out any other of my draw/CA spells.
So if I'm cutting 2 cantrips for 2 non-cantrips post-board, then maybe those 2 cantrips in the main aren't exactly mandatory for the deck to function optimally via card draw/advantage, since I'm siding them out anyway and functioning just as fine. So with that said I decided to ultimately cut the 2 cantrips.
What I did notice in testing, that my 58 cards above could pretty much answer anything, as long as I drew them and played well. But what I also did notice in testing was that I was significantly weaker in the control mirror and the combo match ups and I believe this was due to no efficient counterspell. Cryptic Command isn't exactly efficient mind you. So after losing twice to Esper Control, I tested 1 Negate and 1 Countersquall in the main. I then got matched up shortly thereafter against a UW control deck playing Ancestral Vision. I generally had some trouble when I didn't play the negates since I couldn't exactly stop bomb cards like AV, Sphinx Rev, walkers or Secure/WSZ from resolving since Remand doesn't truly stop it, but I felt it was too important to play due to the cantrip factor to help the deck flow.
Turns out I crushed the mirror match and a big part of it was playing those 2 negates. Was able to stop AV from resolving and protected my Notion Thief from a Path to Exile while I let his 2nd AV resolve on the stack, netting me 3 cards. I also played against Gifts Storm and the negates where premium there as well. So, needless to say, I was pretty certain that the 2 Negate where the missing link for my deck.
I did change them to 2 Countersquall though since now I'm playing 2 Watery Grave for added consistency to hit B. But also for the fact that I was reading the Jund thread on this forum and noticed players where cutting bolt for Fatal Push and basically saying the reach wasn't as important as the removal aspect of push. Then I thought about my deck and felt I had much more reach than Jund due to 3 Bolt, 2 Helix, 2 K-Command and 3 Snap, 1 Gearhulk to flash it back. So I thought I may as well maximise the reach aspect of my deck and play 2 Countersquall on top of this. I feel the reach part of my deck makes up for lack of main deck Vendilion Clique and allows me to gain an edge in the control mirror and combo decks by shortening the clock.
So taking into account all the games I played before my run of bad luck the other day, and the game's I've played after, I feel confident in saying that I've had the most success playing 4c teachings with this current list as I feel I have most bases covered and explained the reasoning for my choices which resulted in my testing so far.
Also what's the consensus on Anticipate. I'm considering playing this for added consistency. The only problem is, I don't think, for the life of me, I could really cut anything for it since I think I'd be too low on actual answers to search for. I'm currently of the opinion that just playing 26 lands is enough to hit your first 3 land drops at a high consistency, so I don't think it's AS important to be overdoing cantrips, as nice as that'd be, like Grixis Control does and plays 22 land so they're effectively cutting land for cantrips and still playing enough answers. I think if I can hit my first 3 land drops without needing cantrips, due to the higher land count of 26 lands, then Esper Charm is online which basically gets me hitting land drops for the rest of the game then extra cantrips such as Anticipate are further weakened as you'd naturally hit more lands but now are losing tempo anticipating for an answer rather than having that answer in hand already.
Gen0syde86 plays Think Twice, Cody_X plays Explore, I play Remand as for 2 mana cantrips. Is it worth having a look at Anticipate? Or is just too slow and too much air rather than playing more answers?
The way I'm currently set up, is to have a high amount of efficient removal spells to match the redundancy of aggro, since aggro looks to kill by turn 4, so I figure by maxing out in the removal department, I'd have a stronger chance of trading with their threats in the early game since I'd most likely draw a couple. In theory, I'm not too sure Anticipate would work as well as just having more removal spells since the tempo loss could be game breaking. On the other hand, if I started with a removal light hand, due to not knowing what I was playing against, Anticipate would dig me 3 to hopefully get that removal spell. But would that generally be a little too late?
Then against control or combo, the match ups are usually much slower than against aggro, so would it be safe to say that you'd generally see more of your deck naturally, due to virtue of seeing more draw steps as the match up is going to be decided slower than against aggro decks? Anticipate would be good, but not really that great to use a card slot on since there's a fair chance you'll see a counter when you need it naturally due to the nature of the match up? So by playing more removal than counters in the main, you'd have a better chance of drawing removal early against aggro, but you'd also have a good chance of drawing into a counter or 2 against control and combo since the match up is slower so you'll have time to see more cards?
Or is a card like Anticipate worth the slot over a hard answer such as Countersquall and Lightning Helix as anticipate will theoretically be able to find you the right answer for the right match up, given enough time? But if you cut the 2nd Squall and Helix for 2 anticipate, then technically you have less a chance to see those cards since you're only running 1 as opposed to 2 copies?
Yea I always mull 1 land hands, unless and this is a big unless, I have a hand with 5-6 1-2 mana spells like bolt, path, remands but that's not common at all.
Just been on tilt lately, I think I've lost my last 9 or so matches due to mainly mana screw not getting off 2 lands until turn 8, drawing the wrong side of my deck while my opponent draws the right side of their deck and the odd bout of mana flood. It's just everything is hitting me at once, game after game I just can't help but go from Tilt to laughing hysterically, but honestly I think I just need a break.
Funny thing is, most of these losses I've been accruing have been against random brews and just losing heavily to variance while my opponent's just always get the nut hands and never mulling. This all started from yesterday into today.
But for the last week I've been playing the deck I've been on cloud 9. I've beaten Burn 3 from 3, Bant Eldrazi 1 from 1, Gifts Storm 1 from 1, Jund and Junk 1 from 1 each, Bogles 1 from 1, Bant Company 2 from 2 and had 2 close losses to Esper. Nothing too out of the ordinary in any of those matches. I just hit more than 2 land drops and slowly got the engine rolling.
That's why I'm at a loss for words recently as it just seems I'm getting hit by the variance hammer every time I play the deck. Literally 9 straight losses against decks worse than the one's I was beating just 2 days ago and mainly due to one extreme of bad draws on my part including mulliganing to the other extreme of great draws on their part while not once mulliganing.
I hate making excuses so I was looking at the deck construction and what I could change to make better. My deck construction features 15 spells 3 mana and higher. 6 3 mana spells in Esper Charm, Kolaghan's Command and Kozilek's Return, 9 6 mana spells in Mystical Teacchings, Cryptic Command and Sphinx Rev, 1 5 mana spell in Consume the Meek, 1 6 mana spell in Torrential Gearhulk and 1 8 mana spell in Elder Deep-Fiend.
But then I was looking at teachings lists of old on google search and majority of lists run from 14-18 spells that cost 3 mana and higher. Even looking at stock Esper Control lists with 4 Charm, 4 Cryptic, 3-4 Verdict, 2 Sphinx Rev, 1-2 Stw/WSZ, that's about 14-16 spells 3 mana and higher. Then I checked my list again and my list features 15 spells 3 mana and higher. All decks ran from 25-27 lands with 26 being fairly standard. This "high" end curve of about 14-18 3+ cmc spells seemed to be working fine for all these lists, and even my list, barring the last 2 days has been working smoothly.
Then I was looking at the amount of card draw/adv and I'm running very similar numbers to those lists too. Looing at Esper Control, they have 4 Think ]Twice as a 2 mana cantrip which is early enough to draw into lands if mana screwed. My list doesn't feature Think Twice, but I've gone with 3 Remand as my 2 mana cantrip which generally works out to be the same thing to hit those land drops. I also was playing 1 Shadow of Doubt and 1 Hallowed Moonlight until the last couple days which added another 2 early cantrips. Actually ever since I cut those cards I've been experiencing major variance issues. Maybe I need to be playing them just for the cantrip factor in case I get the wrong end of the variance stick.
This also got me thinking if I should experiment with Anticipate as well. But tbh, I prefer Shadow of Doubt since it plays similar to Remand to help keep me up on tempo. But then again, I'm getting a ton of 1 land openers which I have to mull and when I've been stuck on 2 lands, the Negates I replaced my cantrips with haven't even been in that hand either so I can't really blame it on the lack of cantrips. Unless I should be finding room for more cantrips and trimming down my heavier cards like Charm and Cryptic to fit in some more Shadow of Doubt or even Anticipate.
Maybe I'm just getting unlucky as of late but I do like to neutralise luck as much as possible. Maybe more cantrips are the way forward? I'd take a hit in quantity of answers, but theoretically make up for it with general consistency?
Just a question about lands. Is 26 lands enough to consistently hit 4-6 land drops by turn 4-6? Is there any statistics on this?
It's just that and I mean every 2-3 matches on modo I open with 1 land hands and nearly every single match, 1/3 games I get stuck on 2 lands by turn 6-8. I hate to admit, but I'm only very slightly exaggerating, this problem is happening quite commonly and I can't really do anything stuck on 2 lands while my opponent is on 5-6 lands.
Should I increase my land count to 27 or 28? I'm really starting to get over not being able to play a proper game of magic. I'm generally fine if I can get to 3 land by turn 3 as Esper Charm is online and between the charm Remand and Crytpic Command the deck works as usual.
Just had a match vs Valakut/Breach that was the last straw that got me super tilted.
Game 1 I hit more than 2 lands, emptied his hand with Esper Charm, countered his Through the Breach and [card]Primeval Titan
[/card] and closed the game with Bolts and Tar Pits.
Game 2, I took a 2 land hand Marsh Flats and Arid Mesa which gives me access to all 4c. It had double Esper Charm in it so thought I had a good game plan of being on the draw which would allow me to make him hellbent on turn 3-4. Turns out I draw my 3rd land drop on turn 8, and I even Remanded a spell just to cantrip into a land which just never came. I couldn't even give the guy a proper game of magic and told him this has been happening nearly every match I'm involved in.
Game 3, on the play, I open with... wait for it.... a 1 land hand. Super tilted, I said GGSWP and conceded on the spot.
I understand variance is part of the game, but tbh, this happens more often than I'd like to admit being stuck on 1-2 lands. I feel I play enough cantrips with the 3 Remand which also turns the tempo around in my favour and once I hit 3 lands, Esper Charm gets me to drops 5-6 if I don't already naturally draw them anyway. Otherwise, I do my best just hanging in there with all my 1-2 mana removal spells but there's only so many turns you can afford to miss land drops before it really takes it's toll.
So is going up to 27-28 lands feasible to solve this problem? Or should I add more 1-2cmc cantrips like Peek or Anticipate but the only way I could fit more cantrips in is by cutting out other draw spells like Esper Charm and Mystical Teachings which kind of defeats the purpose of being a late game control deck.
Cody - I'll have to gather the pieces for your deck to test it out on modo. May take a little bit to get the tix for AV, but I think I can make up the rest of the deck without spending too much at this current moment. What should I replace AV with? Think Twice?
On Notion Thief. He's actually been quite solid in testing. I've sided him in against UW and Esper control and ended up drawing 3 off AV from UW and drew off Serum Visions snapbacked against Esper. He tends to stick more often than not surprisingly since the control decks generally side in Dispel or Negate which does nothing against him and they tend to trim out quite a bit of removal too. I mainly had the thief for Howling Mine decks but he's shown promise against control too.
If could get your opinions on this please. Is this enough card draw/advantage for smooth sailing?
Reason I'm asking is that I'm looking to cut the 1 Shadow of Doubt and 1 Hallowed Moonlight for 2 Countersquall but I'm not sure if I'd have enough card draw power if I made this change. I really like those 2 cantrips but feel too unsafe playing without a hard cheap counter like Negate for the combo and control match ups as well as Ponza and I think a generic answer to a lot of problem permanents like Negate may be a smarter deck building decision.
I recently tested removing 1 Lightning Helix and 1 Blessed Alliance for 2 Countersquall and at first it felt alright, but after a few more matches I could definitely feel a huge difference in lacking early game interaction and life gain stabilisation against aggro creature decks so I had to go back to 2 Helix and 2 BA which always felt strong against every aggro deck to match their redundancy. I won a tight 2-1 against the newish RW splash G burn lists without Wild Nacatl and that was with only 1 LH and 1 BA in the main, but each of the 3 games came right down to the wire and were won with both players at lethal. It felt just a little too concerning at 1 LH and 1 BA and if I had the 2nd copy of each, I'd feel fairly confident in the match up. Also had a lucky 2-0 vs Bogles when I was running the 2/2 split of BA/LH and I was super glad to have the 2nd Blessed Alliance as I drew it before turn 4 when I was close to lethal.
I also ended up playing against a UW control deck and Gifts Storm testing the 2 Countersquall in the main and it was perfect and shut down some big plays that I would be very vulnerable too without the card. I'm pretty sold on playing 2 in the main after those match ups where I've had trouble in the past as I usually am forced to make sub-optimal plays due to lacking an efficient answer to a problem non-creature permanent. I actually combo'd the main deck Surgical Extraction with a Countersquall on Past in Flames when he was at 1 card in hand which drew the concession.
So what I've gathered in testing these, is that I really want the 2 Blessed Alliance and 2 Lightning Helix in the main as that felt just right against aggro and burn with BA being splash damage against Eldrazi and DSJ . But I also want the 2 Countersquall in the main too as that gave me solid game and confidence against control and combo where I can hold up 2 counters at a time like Remand and Countersquall. So the only cuts I can see may have to be the 1 Hallowed Moonlight and 1 Shadow of Doubt for 2 Counteresquall. I'd be ok with this change as long as I have enough draw power in the deck. I don't want to cut the maindeck Surgical Extraction though as it gives me a out to Dredge game 1 as well as generally being a mini bomb depending on the circumstances.
Well said, I didn't realise Bring to Light was a card and what you're saying makes a lot of sense. Just as I read your comment I ended up selling out the green cards, ended up losing 40-50 tix all up but all in the name of testing. Curse my impulse buying personality
Guess I'll stick to the 4 colours then since I really like playing like the flash.
On another note, I think I've struck a more moderate balance adding those 2 early game hard counters in place of 2 removal spells. I feel a lot more safer sitting back and playing patiently, knowing that I can actually stop whatever bomb is about to come my way. It's pretty disheartening for the opponent when you reveal a Countersquall off of Mystical Teachings in the control mirror and they know you're probably sitting on a cryptic or something else too.
Have you run into any awkwardness carrying the 2 Countersquall in your updated list? I'm currently on the 2 squall too and only one time have I drawn both in the early game but I ended up nabbing 2 Aether Vial with them which was good. I sometimes wish I had that one more Blessed Alliance against Eldrazi though... but I guess I'd be absolutely ecstatic to have as many Countersquall as I could get my hands on against Valakut and Tron and I do think 2 is fair since the rest of the deck is heavy in removal spells.
@ Gen0syde86 - Sweet looking updated list. What made the difference as to make your deck smoother now? Was it the Think Twice or more hard counters with the extra Cryptic and Squall?
@ Cody_X
Awesome BUG list, I actually was inspired by the addition of Green and made up a 5 colour teachings list below after digesting your list. I've tested/goldfished against lesser Tier decks a few matches which I'll report my findings below. But firstly, I'd like to challenge your thoughts on Red and White not being needed in teachings. I'll try to explain why I actually think they are essential in teachings -
What Red gives the deck -
1. Bolt/Snap/Bolt A way to race combo decks. Teachings late game is generally highly inevitable as the deck is slowish and geared towards a long game. The problem I believe is that when we come up against decks with more inevitability, like Tron, Lantern, or even Mill, we generally flop hard. By playing Red, it gives us a way to race and out-tempo these decks. Land an early Snap and use the counterspells to protect him and finish with the reach in Lightning Bolt. Some decks, we cannot control no matter how hard we try and the best defence is to play offense IMO. Taking a leaf out of Grixis Control's book and Gen0syed's Grixis teachings list, racing these decks with a better late game seems like a much more probable way to win. Burn also hits planeswalkers and is generally more efficient to play more copies of burn spells that multiple 3 mana walker removal like Hero's Downfall, Anguished Unmaking, To the Slaughter.
2. Kolaghan's Command This card, like Gen0syde86 stated is just too good to pass up. All the modes are relevant against every archetype and helps lock out the game by discarding the opponent's hand.
3. Kozilek's Return Not as popular as it could be but in testing this card has been a house for me. Hits MoW, EC in addition to being extremely mana efficient against decks like Elves. Sure you can play harder sweepers in Damnation or Supreme Verdict but I am of the personal opinion that nearly all cards should be an Instant to maximise synergy and consistency in the deck and K-Return fills the role of a 2nd Consume the Meek nicely. Also has a nice uncounterable interaction with Elder Deep-Fiend which promotes the "lock em' out" once stabilised game plan by pseudo timewalking (Mistbind Clique) them on their upkeep. Emerge cost is only 5 mana with a Snap in play which combos with K-Command too.
What White gives the deck -
1. Life gain Since the teachings engine is slowish but inevitable, it's easy to get killed before you get a chance to make it to late game. White offers playable maindeck life gain cards like Blessed Alliance, Lightning Helix and Sphinx's Revelation which help stabilise while also being a great card in their own right. Blessed Alliance in testing has over-performed. Killing Bogles, Reality Smasher, Death's Shadow etc. When's the last time a control deck had a solid game 1 against Bogles?
2. Path to Exile - I respect what Fatal Push has done for control in Modern, but IMO, when I've cut some Paths for Pushes in testing, I mostly seem to regret it. Path means Tron is a much more manageable match up. Instead of burning counters on Wurm, Worldbreaker or Ulamog, Path allows you to leverage your resources much better and save that counter for a potential Karn Liberated that would win them the game. By foregoing white for the Black removal, match ups like Tron become more of a coin flip and harder than they could be. Tasigur, Gurmag and the Eldrazi decks mostly dodge Push too but Path cleans them up nicely. Death's Shadow cannot get around Path to Exile with K-Command of LtLH - ability. Fatal Push is an insanely powerful card, I admit that, but I still think Path to Exile is significantly better positioned against a diverse meta.
3. Esper Charm. I know it's just one card in Whites toolbox, but this card is IMO one of the strongest reasons to play white. I'm sure you know what this card can do from the Esper thread but I think the card works exceptionally well in a teachings shell as a way to carry the deck with bulk card advantage if you haven't drawn a Mystical Teachings yet.
In concluding my opinions on what red and white gives the deck, I'll try to sum it us as saying, ultimately I think the 2 biggest weaknesses of Mystical Teachings is the lack of maindeck playable life gain which makes it a dog to aggro decks with reach, and the lack of clock when you have to race combo decks that you can't truly control. That's why I think red and white are important. Instead of strengthening our already strong late game, I think we need to be fixing our weaknesses in the early game and red and white are the best colours for the job in that regard IMO.
So I tested a 5 colour list on modo as I was inspired by some of the green cards you listed and particularly that Research // Development tech you had going. I actually splurged nearly 100 tix instantly for this little experiment, all in the name of testing!
I was mainly goldfishing against lesser tier decks, just to see if I could manage the land sequencing and to spot if the deck was just a weaker version of my 4 colour list. I started with my 4 colour list in the OP, but cut 1 Kolaghan's Command, 1 Negate and 1 Surgical Extraction for 1 Pulse of Murasa, 1 Abrupt Decay and 1 Research // Development. The cards I replaced with the green cards I wanted to be similar in casting cost and ability. After a few matches, I then added more similar cards green gave the deck like a Sultai Charm for an Esper Charm and a Mystic Snake for a Cryptic Command.
I adjusted the mana base to include some Green sources. I didn't just go 1 of everything, even though it may look like that. I Ended up shifting the fetch lands to support 4 ways to fetch basic island (3 basics) and mountain (turn 1 goblin), 3 ways to fetch plains (turn 1-3 path) and swamp (consume the meek through blood moon), and 2 ways to fetch basic forest (blood moon but forest isn't as important as the other basics.) I then cut down on Steam Vents and Hallowed Fountain to support 2 Green shocks in Stomping Ground and Breeding Pool and got rid of the check lands (Sulfur, Glacial) for a basic Forest (blood moon) and a Celestial Colonnade (more win cons due to slightly less threats.) I lost 2 Blue sources in the process which brings me down to 19 U and 1 red and 1 whited source which brings me down to 12 RW. I felt this is the lowest I could go, mana base wise to support all my spells.
My findings where:
1. Research // Development - This was the main reason I added green, in particular the toolboxy side of research. I was intrigued by your explanation of the card, especially in teachings, and it looked like super sweet 1 of tech. I replaced the 1 mainboard Surgical Extraction for it. I was able to cast both sides of the card 2-4 times and flashbacked a development with Gearhulk, boy is development super powerful. My findings where that while I loved going through my sideboard to find a silver bullet, generally, my mainboard nearly always had the right answers since it packs a lot of generic counters and removal. The Research side was very slow. I had one in my opener which I used just for testings sake, but it took until turn 5+ to actually really get a chance to tutor for a silver bullet I previously fetched with Research.
That was with Research in my opener. I can imagine it would take even longer if I had to tutor for Research // Development, and then flashback Mystical Teachings to tutor a silver bullet I tutored for. When I think about silver bullets to tutor for, ultimately, I don't think there's too many silver bullets that offer significant more power than what the mainboard can offer. The best example I can come up with is grabbing a sideboard Angel's Grace with Research against Add Nauseam, then somehow having the time to tutor for it with Mystical Teachings. This would be exactly the type of play that I'd be looking for Research // Development to give me, but the amount of time and draw steps to set it up, generally I expect the Ad Nauseam player to have already combo'd out by then.
The Development side of the card was definitely a powerful thing to do at instant speed. Against creature decks, they didn't want to give me three 3/1's, while the more controlling decks couldn't allow me the card draw which gave me a way to close the game faster with the tokens. Tbh, I actually preferred the Development side and would consider playing the card based on that, with the sideboard tutor of Research as a bonus.
I removed Surgical Extraction to test this. I actually missed SE, I know you stated that RD allows you to play less narrow cards like Teferi and Extirpate in the main, but TBH, SE, as a 1 of has been a lot more generic than it has narrow in testing. I think having a mainboard grave hate card like Surgical is pretty good in this meta. It can clear out Death's Shadow decks, Bogles as well as giving a chance against Dredge in game 1 since the deck is slower now. Even extracting all Path to Exile from deck's like Marty Proc can be a game winning play since you can keep up with recurring your own Snaps. Rafael's Loam Pox I fear will become more popular and that deck is an absolute nightmare to play against as a draw-go but SE kills off the LftL engine which is how they win. The issue I found with replacing Surgical Extraction with Research // Development is that of efficiency. These graveyard based decks need an answer ASAP and I don't think we generally will have the time to ever tutor for our grave hate cards but by playing SE in the main, it gives the chance to draw one naturally and snap it back to win game 1. All I'm saying is I think Surgical extraction isn't exactly a narrow sideboard bullet anymore and has performed solidly even against creature decks.
2. Pulse of Murasa - I replaced 1 Kolaghan's Command for this in testing. I actually really like Pulse. The 6 life gain was pretty huge and it works really well in 5 colour, bringing back a fetch land to hand. I slightly missed the 2nd K-Command, having access to a higher quantity of K-Command has always served me well, but I definitely could see Pulse replacing 1 K-Command if I am to continue with 5 colour. Both cards play similarly but if lacking maindeck lifegain, pulse is worth a slot imo.
3.Abrupt Decay - Card was great in testing. Didn't run into any Blood Moon decks while playing this list which is weird since that's all I've really been playing against recently but would assume AD would be an all-star there. I cut 1 Negate for it and didn't really miss the negate so I think AD is worth playing Green.
Those 3 cards were the main green cards I was testing. I found that my deck was a lot more durdly playing those cards, just mentally playing for the long game more often and felt like I lacked a way to really close games out as opposed to playing more burn like K-Command. Research // Development was just too inefficient IMO and unfortunately wasn't worth adding Green for as much as I hate to say it. Pulse of Murasa can be worth adding Green for if lacking maindeck life gain cards like Sphinx Rev or Blessed Alliance, but I feel the tougher mana base out-ways the addition of Pulse and the White life gain cards are serviceable enough. Abrupt Decay was worth adding Green alone but if that's all I'm really adding green for, I think K-Command and Esper Charm do a good enough job of dealing with stuff like Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon in a pinch and the strain on the mana base to support 5 colours I felt did come at a cost.
The cost of playing 5 colours -
1. Cryptic Command - This card was fairly unplayable. It took me until turn 6 on average to be able to hit UUU as I was focused on staying alive in the early turns. I looked at replacing one with Mystic Snake which felt miles better. If I were to play 5 colour, I think I'd have to cut all Cryptics for Snakes. As cool as that would be, ultimately I think Cryptic is just too important a card. It helps the deck pull ahead and adds incidental draw power by cantripping, as well as coming in clutch as an instant speed Sleep to get Consume the Meek online. Bouncing permanent EOT such as planeswalkers to set up a more mana efficient next turn is quite important too. I personally feel Cryptic is more important to play than adding a 5th colour. Funnily enough, Cryptic has been very castable in 4 colour since every fetchable land is an Island and all the important removal spells only need 1 colour.
2. Sultai Charm - I cut the third Esper Charm to test this. I like Sultai Charm. I was able to use the Ultimate Price mode as an extra removal spell which kept me in the game after mulling to 5 and having my Path Inquisitioned away. The instant speed draw is nearly identical to Esper Charm. I never really felt bad about discarding since the deck draws so many cards and has lots of lands, I tend to discard on end step a bit anyway. I do think the bulk draw of Esper Charm can be vital in more competitive, tighter match ups and the discard mode on Esper Charm is truly a powerful thing to utilise in this deck that Sultai Charm was lacking. I could see myself cutting 1 Esper Charm for 1 Sultai Charm if I were to play 5 colur, but if I'm being honest, I think I'd really be wanting as many Esper Charms as possible. I think in a 3 colour Sultai list, Sultai Charm is an excellent replacement for Esper Charm, but I don't think it's worth adding a 5th colour for since it's so similar to Esper.
3. Fatal Push - Not a green card but tested this anyway. I cut 1 bolt and 1 path for 2 push. Ended up playing against a deck with 2 Gurmag Angler and drawing Fatal Push. Instantly regretted it. But, another match was able to knock off a Monastery Swiftspear against a BR burn deck (Bump in the Night) while my opponent was mana screwedd so push was excellent to keep him behind tempo stuck on 1 land while I advanced my land dominance. Push is nice in situations like that, but I think I'd prefer Path over Push every time and would be looking to cut Lightning Bolt for Fatal Push if I were to play push in the deck. The only issue with replacing bolts, is that bolt is the main reason to be playing red for the ability to race and knock off planeswalkers. In my original 4 colour OP, I'd probably stick with Path/Bolt, but in 5 colour, a split of Path/Push/Bolt is most likely better as by juggling 5 colours, you have to sequence your spells around the lands your draw and by mixing up the removal, it hedges a bit against drawing off colour lands. I do think Fatal Push is worth the premium removal slot in deck not running white with either Terminate or Abrupt Decay as the secondary removal.
Didn't really test any sideboard silver bullets to trial with research as I couldn't really think of too many besides stuff like Extripate, Notion Thief, Teferi, Angel's Grace. Even stuff like Mindbend just seems unnecessary to fetch, even if it does cause massive blowouts against stuff like Boil since generic counters like Negate do the job and are more flexible. I did end up testing a bullet Back to Nature but didn't end up playing against Tokens or Merfolk where I feel this would be a sweet bullet to fetch up. Honestly, I really want to play Research and I've gone through the MTG Search looking at every single instant and flash card, but silver bullet wise, there aren't really anything that would completely win the game out-right which means I still would have to play my natural game plan and stock standard counters and removal deal with 90% of everything anyway. I could do stuff like Searing Win but that's just not really achieving much. The most probable use I could see for Resarch would be tutoring a spell like Anguished Unmaking or To the Slaughter against a slower midrange-controlling planeswalker deck where I'd have the time to set it up, but counterspells, burn and Creeping Tar-Pit are already solid ways to fight planeswalkers in the main that aren't too narrow anyway, and you could even play a Hero's Downfall in the main anyway since it isn't exactly narrow.
I'm not sure if I will continue with the 5 colour list, it felt smarter, but just overall less powerful than the 4 colour list, but most of all, it changed the game plan to a much more durdly one, which isn't a bad thing, but it goes against my opinion of supporting red mana to be able to finish decks like Time Warp before they get started.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. How has your testing been with Research // Development?
Been looking for a current thread featuring Mystical Teachings control and couldn't find one so I thought I'd list make a thread in the deck creation section. This is a brew I've been gushing over recently. It's taken some time, but I think this is where I want to be currently with the deck.
The basic game plan of the deck is to stabilise then to lock up and finish the game in an instant. Mystical Teachings helps achieve this by being able to tutor up any card in the entire 60, whether it be an answer, or a way to close the game. Mystical Teachings solves the problem that is common in control decks of not being able to finish the game once stabilised which gives the opponent more draw steps to find a way to win. Mystical Teachings allows you to take control of your deck and grab that win condition before your opponent can top-deck a way out. I liken Mystical Teachings to Serum Visions in draw-go control in that they are both primarily going to be used in the late game to fix draws, but one is a Sorcery that digs 3 deep, while the other is an Instant that digs 60 deep and comes with flashback.
These cards added together make the engine consistent and inevitable.
The core of the shell features the classic control package of counters, removal and card draw. In my list, this is illustrated by the 3's. Generally, the core cards in most decks feature as 4's, but to maximise the potential of the instant speed tutor, I had to make some hard cuts and settled on 3's being the workhorse of the deck. These core cards are what allow the deck to function optimally as a typical control deck in lieu of drawing Mystical Teachings.
The silver bullets are chosen to be teachings targets, as well as being serviceable if draw naturally. By playing Mystical Teachings, it allows the deck to play main board answers to specific decks where generally, a control deck may not have an answer to in the main. An example of this is the 1 Surgical Extraction in my list as an answer to Life from the Loam engines which can easily run a control deck out of gas. The advantage of this is, in theory, is that it gives the Mystical Teachings control deck a stronger game 1 against a format as diverse as Modern, compared to other control decks unable to play and utilise silver bullets consistently in the main board.
My 4 colour list I am currently playing (Sideboard is currently incomplete:)
Anguished Unmaking has been over-performing in testing. I have 1 in the side, but am really tempted to put it in the main. It's super flexible and done some narly things like exiling a Daybreak Coronet mid-combat against bogles which then allowed my Clique to chump profitably. I've also been able to exile a Narset Transcendent which is tough to kill normally and AU also adds an extra hard removal spell for match ups like Eldrazi too.
The 3 life loss is real though, but tbh, I don't think playing just 1 copy in the main should really be an issue since it does come in very handy especially to deal with stuff like Karn when you are behind.
Being at 3 mana is a big thing too. I don't think this kind of effect is really that playable at 4 mana and even though the life loss is slightly annoying, I haven't yet run into a scenario where it was to the point of uncastable.
Grimble CTM play a hell of a lot better than it looks. I was sceptical at first, but after seeing what it can do to Bant Knightfall, it's starting to grow on me. We still do have a ton of spot removal plus Cruel Utimatum to pick off some of the bigger stuff too. You could also run a Kozilek's Return, Elder Deep-Fiend tutor combo which kills every single card out of Bant Eldrazi if you want to stay entirely at instant speed without Damnation
So is Sulfur Elemental worth a look in the side these days? I'm noticing a LOT of Esper control lately and their most threatening card is Secure the Wastes but this is usually backed by infinite hard counters. Also noticing an increase of Lingering Souls and BW Tokens. An uncounterable instant speed dark anthem could be a good answer to some of this maybe...
Hey added 1 Consume the Meek like you recommended and it as AMAZING. I also think Kozilek's Return is worth a slot alongside CTM as a 2nd instant speed sweeper to tutor for. K-Return hits the swarm stuff more efficiently while CTM hits the bigger stuff harder.
Is there a reason why you want to replace V.Clique with Venser? I'm of the opinion that Clique is much needed in the deck as our late game engine of either Mystical Teachings or Snap/K-Command is the strongest in the format. What we have trouble with I think is closing speed against the combo decks. I think having 1 Clique to tutor up against combo is worthwhile in the main since our late game just gives the combo player time to keep sculpting the perfect hand. I think playing Grixis over Esper teachings gives us a way to close games faster with bolt/snap/bolt and clique seems like the perfect card to compliment this ability to win quickly when needed. Could you cut 1 Gearulk for Venser since you're playing teachings to tutor up the hulk when needed? What are your thoughts?
Ancestral Vision into Think Twice I like that idea. Works much better with the instant speed nature of the deck and is a much more reliable topdeck. You may lose some raw power that AV provides but I think TT is a solid enough card to hold the deck together.
Cut the 1 Spell Snare for main board Surgical Extraction to help fight loam engine decks. I LOVE snare but as a 1 of, it just feels too low impact compared to what I believe SE can offer the deck. Added 1 Consume the Meek and adjusted mana base to accommodate this. Changed Negate to Countersquall after looking at your list I think your correct on squall being better than negate here. Added a 3rd Remand to Compliment the 3rd Cryptic Command, nothing like the good old Remand into Cryptic infuriating the opponent. Cut the 1 Electrolyze and 1 Elder Deep-Fiend as I felt they were slightly unnecessary when we have cards like K-Command and K-Return and lowering the curve in the process. Sideboarding - Replaced Counterflux with Mindbreak Trap in the side to better fight Time Warp decks by stopping any Gigadrowse nonsense. Testing a Commandeer as a 'wildcard' against various decks.
Also refined what the "core" of my deck is. By core I mean what cards allow the deck to function optimally without having to lean on Mystical Teachings. Generally core cards consist of 4's but I think core cards are better served as 3's in mystical teachings to maximise potential of the instant speed tutor and silver bullet outs to various decks in the main. I think 2's are too inconsistent and low quantity to be considered a core card and I've found personally in testing that 3's are good enough to play the deck without relying on teachings while at the same time allowing for more silver bullets to played in the main.
My choices for my core cards have been this:
Card Advantage: 3 Snapcaster Mage, 3 Esper Charm - I've found this to be a strong set up for consistent raw card advantage to hit land drops and relevant spells until you draw a mystical teachings or Kolaghan's Command which takes over the late game. Recently tested against Jund, 2 different Bant company decks and another value midrange deck with Craterhoof Behemoth backed by counterspells. Snap and Charm really dominated the card draw scene and I always had the gas to keep up with cards like CoCo and big value creatures.
Removal: 3 Path to Exile, 3 Lightning Bolt - Bolt takes out the fastest of aggro while Path takes out the biggest of aggro. Had a game where I went through the entire 4 Knight of the Reliquary, 2 Mutavault and 3 Primeval Titan in addition to some smaller stuff but 3 Path felt just right dealing with all the big stuff. Same with Bolt which takes out the smaller stuff as well as Planeswalkers. Played against an Esper Twix list with 4 Lingering Souls and 4 Myth Realized which were routinely 6+ P/T creatures but Path dealt with 3 of his Myth Realised and Bolt was able to provide the reach to finish the game when he tapped for Esper Charm. 3 Path and 3 Bolt felt strong against nearly every deck and the 1 CTM and 1 K-Return supplement this well.
Counters: 3 Remand, 3 Cryptic Command - Was testing with 2 Remand, 3 Cryptic but felt like I needed slightly more draw so added the 3rd Remand which made a pretty big difference in keeping me safe in the early game while securing land drops and answers. The 3/3 split gives a consistent approach to the dreaded Remand into Cryptic which is a pretty powerful play as you're up 2 extra cards and 2 extra turns to better utilise mana. Remanding into a Mystical Teachings grabbing the relevant answer has been pretty powerful in testing. The bonus draw on remand and cryptic has really helped smooth out consistency issues too.
So that's where I'm currently at for core cards of the deck and has been pretty swell in testing. The deck's primary engine is either Mystical Teachings or Snapcaster Mage/Kolghan's Command but I think the core cards above do a solid job of keeping the deck firing on all cylinders until we get to that late game dominance.
Blessed Alliance has been unbelievably good, I got to lay waste to a Geist of Saint Traft against a spirits deck and the life gain has been strong flashbacking it with Snapcaster Mage against aggro. Mystical Teachings decks in the past where generally built on Esper colours and Rest for the Weary was always a necessary evil but Blessed Alliance is just so much better as it doubles up as hard removal against Eldrazi and Death's Shadow too.
Only real thing I don't have an answer to in the main are non-basic lands, in particular Valakut and Cavern of Souls naming Angel for Sigarda, Host of Herons which I cannot answer without a counterspell. Looking at either Wrecking Ball to tutor up or (most likely) a singleton Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge in the main which also would have a neat interaction with Surgical Extraction.
Lil_Bolas - Grats on the great finishes, may I ask what decks you piloted there? On the topic of the new lands, in theory I feel they could replace a tapland, perhaps a manland of some sort but will be a delicate balancing act to get right. Also new art Cryptic is going to be my bae. Will they come in foils?
If I try to execute the gameplan of countering their big spells, and using discard from Esper Charm and Kolaghan's Command to unburden their hand, in theory they could take quite some time to get Valakut live which can give me enough time to secure a Torrential Gearhulk flashing back some discard and put them on a 4 turn clock. Good thing he's got a big butt to dodge Valakut.
In that case I wouldn't mind sticking with the 2 Countersquall then. Reading the other threads Esper and UW control, there seems to be a general pattern I'm noticing of people rocking 2 Negate in their lists these days. And reading their game play reports, and even the R/G Ponza thread, it seems Negate has been working well against the big mana decks and against ponza which is good to hear as a control player those decks are quite miserable to play against.
Cheers for those sideboard targets. I really like Wear // Tear, I may put that in the board actually. Crackling Doom is nice but I feel I've got Bogles covered with 2 Blessed Alliance and Hide // Seek, I've never really understood how to use this card? Is it like an extraction effect or something?
Sweet, would be great to hear some tourney reports from ya when you get to bring the deck to FNM. What Gearhulk's did you get? MS2 or original?
Looking through my list, I've got an answer to every RESOLVED permanent in the format:
Atifacts - K-Command
Enchantments - Esper Charm
Creatures - Removal
Planeswalkers - No specific walker removal spell but burn goes a long way with special mention to tar pits, flash creatures and cryptic command
Non-basic lands aka Valakut - NOTHING!!!
Thought I might try playing a 27th land drop as a Tectonic Edge. Replacing 1 countersquall and treating the tec edge as a 'spell'. Has a cute combo with the maindeck Surgical Extraction too.
Was considering 1 of the only 2 instant speed land destruction spells in the format - Wrecking Ball, but think it may be a better idea to add a 27th land drop since the deck is mana hungry and Tectonic Edge or even Ghost Quarter would only be used as a LD spell against Valakut and in theory shouldn't effect my mana base since it's really a bonus land drop.
Fetid Pools - Am certain this is going to replace my 2nd Watery Grave. Originally replaced the 3rd Creeping Tar Pit with the 2nd Watery Grave due to noticeable lack of being able to fetch for BB Consume the Meek. Thing is, I was ok with the 3rd Tar Pit coming into play tapped. Fetid Pools definitely seems right up my alley and if I were to play the 27th land, being able to cycle could be quite important in case I get the odd bout of mana flood. I think 2 Tar Pit and 2 check lands give me enough protection against Choke but I'm not sure if I'd go any lower that 4 non-island U sources just out of respect for the odd Choke.
Cast Out - What's your thoughts? Is this mainboard material here? I'm considering playing 1 in the main, but am on the fence. Anguished Unmaking has been really good out of the side, but the life loss is too significant for the main, but this on the other hand can cycle which means I'd probably never side this out against Affinity or Burn either since for only W, it's going to get us closer to that removal/counter we need. Considering replacing 1 Kolaghan's Command for it since it will hit artifacts too, but more importantly, is going to be an actual efficient way to deal with a resolved Narset Transcendent, Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver and Karn Liberated which are require 2+ for 1's if we want to Lightning Bolt them out.
Any Armonkhet cards you've got your eye one?
Well if Serum Visions is performing well in the longer games, wouldn't you be better off running Mystical Teachings instead? 4 SV in a 25/26 land build equates to about 1-2 MT in a 25-26 land build I reckon. This would give you 1-2 extra slots for those removal spells while also making certain you don't get the wrong half of your deck since you'd basically be able to choose anything you want besides Supreme Verdict but if the games already going longer than things are obviously going pretty well.
Instead of digging '3' at sorcery speed you're basically digging '60' at instant speed and holding up a counter too. Obviously, SV will shape your hand better in the early game than MT ever will but based on your statement of SV being great when the game goes long, I'd think MT would be "strictly" better in that regard.
Thinking about what you said about worrying, I did some mental homework from my testing so far and crunched the number of my particular list and came to some conclusions about my card choices:
3 Bolt - Want 4 also but same deal with mystical teachings so I shaved 1. Any lower than 3 for my list isn't aggressive enough to be able to provide enough reach. I choose bolt over Fatal Push for this specific reason and I could see playing less bolts if I played push, but then I'd probably cut red tbh, but I like bolts too much. So 3 has been good enough in testing.
3 Path - 3 has been just right in testing. I've never really wanted the 4th, I'd prefer an edict effect like Blessed Alliance over the 4th Path just for stuff like Bogles and Geist. Testing against Bant and Eldrazi Tron, I would not want any less than 3 as they tend to stretch out the Paths so I feel 3 is a fairly high quantity to deal with lots of big threats and snap can flashback them to better match their topdecks.
3 Charm - I wouldn't mind 4, but 3 has been good enough in testing. I've gone down to 2 copies before but definitely felt the lack of chaining charm into charm which can take over some match ups. At 3 copies, in testing I've been able to usually see the first 2 moderately early, while being able to either draw the 3rd later on, or tutor the 3rd copy when needed. I feel 3 is where I want to be with this card.
3 Remand - I tested 2 Remand, 1 Spell Snare for a little while and as good as snare is, I just found in testing that I was lacking that extra cantrip the 3rd remand provided. Bumped them back up to 3 remand and instantly felt more consistent hitting that opening hand remand to get the ball rolling. Wouldn't mind 4 copies but I think 3 is good enough as I am trying to adhere to the tutor effect of the deck which means a bigger variety of cards to play.
3 Cryptic - I've always felt 4 was a tad too clunky and I generally always trimmed a cryptic in sideboarding most matches. 3 has been noticeably less clunky and I always feel I have enough copies to stop nearly anything. In testing (5c), I cut down to 2 and replaced the 3rd with a Mystic Snake, but just missing that extra cantrip that cryptic provided was enough for me to go back up to 3 copies.
2 Mystical Teachings - Never really wanted a 3rd teachings in testing. I do the teachings for teachings, and that has been more than good enough, I just have never wanted to teachings for teachings for teachings. In theory, I'd love to play the full 4 Mystical Teachings, but between that and Cryptic Command I find it just clunkifies the curve so I'm happy with 2 copies.
2 Kolaghan's Command - In theory, I would like to cut down to 1 copy but in testing, it's just been too good in too many match ups to justify playing the 2nd. A common trend when testing has been naturally drawing the 1st K-Command, but needing to teachings for the 2nd. This card for mine is really Mystical Teachings 3-4, but it lowers the curve a bit while offering a maindeck answer to artifacts.
2 Blessed Alliance - Started off testing 1 copy, but soon upped them to 2 copies and haven't looked back. It's surprisingly been one of my stand out cards and does way more work than what an edict should do. I noticed a fair difference between 1 and 2 copies of the card against decks like Burn and Bogles, and feel that I really want to be at 2 copies these days with big and hard to interact with dudes running amuck.
2 Lightning Helix - An odd choice but in testing, felt that 1 was too little. And by that I mean lacking that extra removal and lifegain card against aggro. 1 copy also wasn't aggressive enough to provide enough reach and by adding the 2nd copy, my reach is more threatening as well as giving me that extra bit of life gain which I feel is important when venturing into a 4th colour.
1 Kozilek's Return/ 1 Consume the Meek - Split the instant speed sweepers 1 a piece. Been happy with both cards and wouldn't want to play any more than 1 of each in testing.
1 Torrential Gearhulk/ 1 Elder Deep-Fiend - My 2 main win 5/6 body win conditions. I think it's criminal not to play Gearhulk in a deck with only instants in it and instead of playing the 2nd Gearhulk, I opted to go with Deep-Fiend as an extra sweeper effect which triggers off Kozilek's Return for uncounterable 5 damage. Been happy with the split.
1 Sphinx's Revelation - Really sold on just 1 copy with Mystical Teachings in the deck. Don't feel like I need another.
1 Surgical Extraction - Been happy with the misers extraction in the main. In there for Dredge and Loam decks but has come in handy against nearly any deck since every deck has a graveyard to some extent. Wouldn't dare play more than 1 though.
26 lands - Recent change was cutting the 3rd Tar Pit for a 2nd Watery Grave as in testing, I got screwed on Consume the Meek a number of times, due to not being able to grab a second "Island/Swamp" off of my Blue fetches. So far, this has remedied that deck building flaw.
Now all those add up to 58 cards which leaves me with 2 "flex slots." I originally as stated previously played 2 cantrips in these flex spots Hallowed Moonlight and Shadow of Doubt. Interesting thing was, I tended to always side these cards out after game 1. Which really doesn't make sense since it's actually a card draw card which I don't think should ever really be sided out as card draw is what makes the control deck tick. Obviously the effect is pretty niche, but somewhat general at the same time. But, I found in testing, that by cutting the 2 cantrips from the main, I actually never sided out any other of my draw/CA spells.
So if I'm cutting 2 cantrips for 2 non-cantrips post-board, then maybe those 2 cantrips in the main aren't exactly mandatory for the deck to function optimally via card draw/advantage, since I'm siding them out anyway and functioning just as fine. So with that said I decided to ultimately cut the 2 cantrips.
What I did notice in testing, that my 58 cards above could pretty much answer anything, as long as I drew them and played well. But what I also did notice in testing was that I was significantly weaker in the control mirror and the combo match ups and I believe this was due to no efficient counterspell. Cryptic Command isn't exactly efficient mind you. So after losing twice to Esper Control, I tested 1 Negate and 1 Countersquall in the main. I then got matched up shortly thereafter against a UW control deck playing Ancestral Vision. I generally had some trouble when I didn't play the negates since I couldn't exactly stop bomb cards like AV, Sphinx Rev, walkers or Secure/WSZ from resolving since Remand doesn't truly stop it, but I felt it was too important to play due to the cantrip factor to help the deck flow.
Turns out I crushed the mirror match and a big part of it was playing those 2 negates. Was able to stop AV from resolving and protected my Notion Thief from a Path to Exile while I let his 2nd AV resolve on the stack, netting me 3 cards. I also played against Gifts Storm and the negates where premium there as well. So, needless to say, I was pretty certain that the 2 Negate where the missing link for my deck.
I did change them to 2 Countersquall though since now I'm playing 2 Watery Grave for added consistency to hit B. But also for the fact that I was reading the Jund thread on this forum and noticed players where cutting bolt for Fatal Push and basically saying the reach wasn't as important as the removal aspect of push. Then I thought about my deck and felt I had much more reach than Jund due to 3 Bolt, 2 Helix, 2 K-Command and 3 Snap, 1 Gearhulk to flash it back. So I thought I may as well maximise the reach aspect of my deck and play 2 Countersquall on top of this. I feel the reach part of my deck makes up for lack of main deck Vendilion Clique and allows me to gain an edge in the control mirror and combo decks by shortening the clock.
So taking into account all the games I played before my run of bad luck the other day, and the game's I've played after, I feel confident in saying that I've had the most success playing 4c teachings with this current list as I feel I have most bases covered and explained the reasoning for my choices which resulted in my testing so far.
Also what's the consensus on Anticipate. I'm considering playing this for added consistency. The only problem is, I don't think, for the life of me, I could really cut anything for it since I think I'd be too low on actual answers to search for. I'm currently of the opinion that just playing 26 lands is enough to hit your first 3 land drops at a high consistency, so I don't think it's AS important to be overdoing cantrips, as nice as that'd be, like Grixis Control does and plays 22 land so they're effectively cutting land for cantrips and still playing enough answers. I think if I can hit my first 3 land drops without needing cantrips, due to the higher land count of 26 lands, then Esper Charm is online which basically gets me hitting land drops for the rest of the game then extra cantrips such as Anticipate are further weakened as you'd naturally hit more lands but now are losing tempo anticipating for an answer rather than having that answer in hand already.
Gen0syde86 plays Think Twice, Cody_X plays Explore, I play Remand as for 2 mana cantrips. Is it worth having a look at Anticipate? Or is just too slow and too much air rather than playing more answers?
The way I'm currently set up, is to have a high amount of efficient removal spells to match the redundancy of aggro, since aggro looks to kill by turn 4, so I figure by maxing out in the removal department, I'd have a stronger chance of trading with their threats in the early game since I'd most likely draw a couple. In theory, I'm not too sure Anticipate would work as well as just having more removal spells since the tempo loss could be game breaking. On the other hand, if I started with a removal light hand, due to not knowing what I was playing against, Anticipate would dig me 3 to hopefully get that removal spell. But would that generally be a little too late?
Then against control or combo, the match ups are usually much slower than against aggro, so would it be safe to say that you'd generally see more of your deck naturally, due to virtue of seeing more draw steps as the match up is going to be decided slower than against aggro decks? Anticipate would be good, but not really that great to use a card slot on since there's a fair chance you'll see a counter when you need it naturally due to the nature of the match up? So by playing more removal than counters in the main, you'd have a better chance of drawing removal early against aggro, but you'd also have a good chance of drawing into a counter or 2 against control and combo since the match up is slower so you'll have time to see more cards?
Or is a card like Anticipate worth the slot over a hard answer such as Countersquall and Lightning Helix as anticipate will theoretically be able to find you the right answer for the right match up, given enough time? But if you cut the 2nd Squall and Helix for 2 anticipate, then technically you have less a chance to see those cards since you're only running 1 as opposed to 2 copies?
This is confusing..
Just been on tilt lately, I think I've lost my last 9 or so matches due to mainly mana screw not getting off 2 lands until turn 8, drawing the wrong side of my deck while my opponent draws the right side of their deck and the odd bout of mana flood. It's just everything is hitting me at once, game after game I just can't help but go from Tilt to laughing hysterically, but honestly I think I just need a break.
Funny thing is, most of these losses I've been accruing have been against random brews and just losing heavily to variance while my opponent's just always get the nut hands and never mulling. This all started from yesterday into today.
But for the last week I've been playing the deck I've been on cloud 9. I've beaten Burn 3 from 3, Bant Eldrazi 1 from 1, Gifts Storm 1 from 1, Jund and Junk 1 from 1 each, Bogles 1 from 1, Bant Company 2 from 2 and had 2 close losses to Esper. Nothing too out of the ordinary in any of those matches. I just hit more than 2 land drops and slowly got the engine rolling.
That's why I'm at a loss for words recently as it just seems I'm getting hit by the variance hammer every time I play the deck. Literally 9 straight losses against decks worse than the one's I was beating just 2 days ago and mainly due to one extreme of bad draws on my part including mulliganing to the other extreme of great draws on their part while not once mulliganing.
I hate making excuses so I was looking at the deck construction and what I could change to make better. My deck construction features 15 spells 3 mana and higher. 6 3 mana spells in Esper Charm, Kolaghan's Command and Kozilek's Return, 9 6 mana spells in Mystical Teacchings, Cryptic Command and Sphinx Rev, 1 5 mana spell in Consume the Meek, 1 6 mana spell in Torrential Gearhulk and 1 8 mana spell in Elder Deep-Fiend.
But then I was looking at teachings lists of old on google search and majority of lists run from 14-18 spells that cost 3 mana and higher. Even looking at stock Esper Control lists with 4 Charm, 4 Cryptic, 3-4 Verdict, 2 Sphinx Rev, 1-2 Stw/WSZ, that's about 14-16 spells 3 mana and higher. Then I checked my list again and my list features 15 spells 3 mana and higher. All decks ran from 25-27 lands with 26 being fairly standard. This "high" end curve of about 14-18 3+ cmc spells seemed to be working fine for all these lists, and even my list, barring the last 2 days has been working smoothly.
Then I was looking at the amount of card draw/adv and I'm running very similar numbers to those lists too. Looing at Esper Control, they have 4 Think ]Twice as a 2 mana cantrip which is early enough to draw into lands if mana screwed. My list doesn't feature Think Twice, but I've gone with 3 Remand as my 2 mana cantrip which generally works out to be the same thing to hit those land drops. I also was playing 1 Shadow of Doubt and 1 Hallowed Moonlight until the last couple days which added another 2 early cantrips. Actually ever since I cut those cards I've been experiencing major variance issues. Maybe I need to be playing them just for the cantrip factor in case I get the wrong end of the variance stick.
This also got me thinking if I should experiment with Anticipate as well. But tbh, I prefer Shadow of Doubt since it plays similar to Remand to help keep me up on tempo. But then again, I'm getting a ton of 1 land openers which I have to mull and when I've been stuck on 2 lands, the Negates I replaced my cantrips with haven't even been in that hand either so I can't really blame it on the lack of cantrips. Unless I should be finding room for more cantrips and trimming down my heavier cards like Charm and Cryptic to fit in some more Shadow of Doubt or even Anticipate.
Maybe I'm just getting unlucky as of late but I do like to neutralise luck as much as possible. Maybe more cantrips are the way forward? I'd take a hit in quantity of answers, but theoretically make up for it with general consistency?
It's just that and I mean every 2-3 matches on modo I open with 1 land hands and nearly every single match, 1/3 games I get stuck on 2 lands by turn 6-8. I hate to admit, but I'm only very slightly exaggerating, this problem is happening quite commonly and I can't really do anything stuck on 2 lands while my opponent is on 5-6 lands.
Should I increase my land count to 27 or 28? I'm really starting to get over not being able to play a proper game of magic. I'm generally fine if I can get to 3 land by turn 3 as Esper Charm is online and between the charm Remand and Crytpic Command the deck works as usual.
Just had a match vs Valakut/Breach that was the last straw that got me super tilted.
Game 1 I hit more than 2 lands, emptied his hand with Esper Charm, countered his Through the Breach and [card]Primeval Titan
[/card] and closed the game with Bolts and Tar Pits.
Game 2, I took a 2 land hand Marsh Flats and Arid Mesa which gives me access to all 4c. It had double Esper Charm in it so thought I had a good game plan of being on the draw which would allow me to make him hellbent on turn 3-4. Turns out I draw my 3rd land drop on turn 8, and I even Remanded a spell just to cantrip into a land which just never came. I couldn't even give the guy a proper game of magic and told him this has been happening nearly every match I'm involved in.
Game 3, on the play, I open with... wait for it.... a 1 land hand. Super tilted, I said GGSWP and conceded on the spot.
I understand variance is part of the game, but tbh, this happens more often than I'd like to admit being stuck on 1-2 lands. I feel I play enough cantrips with the 3 Remand which also turns the tempo around in my favour and once I hit 3 lands, Esper Charm gets me to drops 5-6 if I don't already naturally draw them anyway. Otherwise, I do my best just hanging in there with all my 1-2 mana removal spells but there's only so many turns you can afford to miss land drops before it really takes it's toll.
So is going up to 27-28 lands feasible to solve this problem? Or should I add more 1-2cmc cantrips like Peek or Anticipate but the only way I could fit more cantrips in is by cutting out other draw spells like Esper Charm and Mystical Teachings which kind of defeats the purpose of being a late game control deck.
On Notion Thief. He's actually been quite solid in testing. I've sided him in against UW and Esper control and ended up drawing 3 off AV from UW and drew off Serum Visions snapbacked against Esper. He tends to stick more often than not surprisingly since the control decks generally side in Dispel or Negate which does nothing against him and they tend to trim out quite a bit of removal too. I mainly had the thief for Howling Mine decks but he's shown promise against control too.
If could get your opinions on this please. Is this enough card draw/advantage for smooth sailing?
3 Remand
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Esper Charm
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Mystical Teachings
3 Cryptic Command
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Sphinx's Revelation
Reason I'm asking is that I'm looking to cut the 1 Shadow of Doubt and 1 Hallowed Moonlight for 2 Countersquall but I'm not sure if I'd have enough card draw power if I made this change. I really like those 2 cantrips but feel too unsafe playing without a hard cheap counter like Negate for the combo and control match ups as well as Ponza and I think a generic answer to a lot of problem permanents like Negate may be a smarter deck building decision.
I recently tested removing 1 Lightning Helix and 1 Blessed Alliance for 2 Countersquall and at first it felt alright, but after a few more matches I could definitely feel a huge difference in lacking early game interaction and life gain stabilisation against aggro creature decks so I had to go back to 2 Helix and 2 BA which always felt strong against every aggro deck to match their redundancy. I won a tight 2-1 against the newish RW splash G burn lists without Wild Nacatl and that was with only 1 LH and 1 BA in the main, but each of the 3 games came right down to the wire and were won with both players at lethal. It felt just a little too concerning at 1 LH and 1 BA and if I had the 2nd copy of each, I'd feel fairly confident in the match up. Also had a lucky 2-0 vs Bogles when I was running the 2/2 split of BA/LH and I was super glad to have the 2nd Blessed Alliance as I drew it before turn 4 when I was close to lethal.
I also ended up playing against a UW control deck and Gifts Storm testing the 2 Countersquall in the main and it was perfect and shut down some big plays that I would be very vulnerable too without the card. I'm pretty sold on playing 2 in the main after those match ups where I've had trouble in the past as I usually am forced to make sub-optimal plays due to lacking an efficient answer to a problem non-creature permanent. I actually combo'd the main deck Surgical Extraction with a Countersquall on Past in Flames when he was at 1 card in hand which drew the concession.
So what I've gathered in testing these, is that I really want the 2 Blessed Alliance and 2 Lightning Helix in the main as that felt just right against aggro and burn with BA being splash damage against Eldrazi and DSJ . But I also want the 2 Countersquall in the main too as that gave me solid game and confidence against control and combo where I can hold up 2 counters at a time like Remand and Countersquall. So the only cuts I can see may have to be the 1 Hallowed Moonlight and 1 Shadow of Doubt for 2 Counteresquall. I'd be ok with this change as long as I have enough draw power in the deck. I don't want to cut the maindeck Surgical Extraction though as it gives me a out to Dredge game 1 as well as generally being a mini bomb depending on the circumstances.
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Elder Deep-Fiend
Instant: 29
3 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Lightning Helix
2 Countersquall
3 Remand
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Esper Charm
2 Mystical Teachings
3 Cryptic Command
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Consume the Meek
1 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Extirpate
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Notion Thief
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
Guess I'll stick to the 4 colours then since I really like playing like the flash.
On another note, I think I've struck a more moderate balance adding those 2 early game hard counters in place of 2 removal spells. I feel a lot more safer sitting back and playing patiently, knowing that I can actually stop whatever bomb is about to come my way. It's pretty disheartening for the opponent when you reveal a Countersquall off of Mystical Teachings in the control mirror and they know you're probably sitting on a cryptic or something else too.
Have you run into any awkwardness carrying the 2 Countersquall in your updated list? I'm currently on the 2 squall too and only one time have I drawn both in the early game but I ended up nabbing 2 Aether Vial with them which was good. I sometimes wish I had that one more Blessed Alliance against Eldrazi though... but I guess I'd be absolutely ecstatic to have as many Countersquall as I could get my hands on against Valakut and Tron and I do think 2 is fair since the rest of the deck is heavy in removal spells.
@ Cody_X
Awesome BUG list, I actually was inspired by the addition of Green and made up a 5 colour teachings list below after digesting your list. I've tested/goldfished against lesser Tier decks a few matches which I'll report my findings below. But firstly, I'd like to challenge your thoughts on Red and White not being needed in teachings. I'll try to explain why I actually think they are essential in teachings -
What Red gives the deck -
1. Bolt/Snap/Bolt A way to race combo decks. Teachings late game is generally highly inevitable as the deck is slowish and geared towards a long game. The problem I believe is that when we come up against decks with more inevitability, like Tron, Lantern, or even Mill, we generally flop hard. By playing Red, it gives us a way to race and out-tempo these decks. Land an early Snap and use the counterspells to protect him and finish with the reach in Lightning Bolt. Some decks, we cannot control no matter how hard we try and the best defence is to play offense IMO. Taking a leaf out of Grixis Control's book and Gen0syed's Grixis teachings list, racing these decks with a better late game seems like a much more probable way to win. Burn also hits planeswalkers and is generally more efficient to play more copies of burn spells that multiple 3 mana walker removal like Hero's Downfall, Anguished Unmaking, To the Slaughter.
2. Kolaghan's Command This card, like Gen0syde86 stated is just too good to pass up. All the modes are relevant against every archetype and helps lock out the game by discarding the opponent's hand.
3. Kozilek's Return Not as popular as it could be but in testing this card has been a house for me. Hits MoW, EC in addition to being extremely mana efficient against decks like Elves. Sure you can play harder sweepers in Damnation or Supreme Verdict but I am of the personal opinion that nearly all cards should be an Instant to maximise synergy and consistency in the deck and K-Return fills the role of a 2nd Consume the Meek nicely. Also has a nice uncounterable interaction with Elder Deep-Fiend which promotes the "lock em' out" once stabilised game plan by pseudo timewalking (Mistbind Clique) them on their upkeep. Emerge cost is only 5 mana with a Snap in play which combos with K-Command too.
What White gives the deck -
1. Life gain Since the teachings engine is slowish but inevitable, it's easy to get killed before you get a chance to make it to late game. White offers playable maindeck life gain cards like Blessed Alliance, Lightning Helix and Sphinx's Revelation which help stabilise while also being a great card in their own right. Blessed Alliance in testing has over-performed. Killing Bogles, Reality Smasher, Death's Shadow etc. When's the last time a control deck had a solid game 1 against Bogles?
2. Path to Exile - I respect what Fatal Push has done for control in Modern, but IMO, when I've cut some Paths for Pushes in testing, I mostly seem to regret it. Path means Tron is a much more manageable match up. Instead of burning counters on Wurm, Worldbreaker or Ulamog, Path allows you to leverage your resources much better and save that counter for a potential Karn Liberated that would win them the game. By foregoing white for the Black removal, match ups like Tron become more of a coin flip and harder than they could be. Tasigur, Gurmag and the Eldrazi decks mostly dodge Push too but Path cleans them up nicely. Death's Shadow cannot get around Path to Exile with K-Command of LtLH - ability. Fatal Push is an insanely powerful card, I admit that, but I still think Path to Exile is significantly better positioned against a diverse meta.
3. Esper Charm. I know it's just one card in Whites toolbox, but this card is IMO one of the strongest reasons to play white. I'm sure you know what this card can do from the Esper thread but I think the card works exceptionally well in a teachings shell as a way to carry the deck with bulk card advantage if you haven't drawn a Mystical Teachings yet.
In concluding my opinions on what red and white gives the deck, I'll try to sum it us as saying, ultimately I think the 2 biggest weaknesses of Mystical Teachings is the lack of maindeck playable life gain which makes it a dog to aggro decks with reach, and the lack of clock when you have to race combo decks that you can't truly control. That's why I think red and white are important. Instead of strengthening our already strong late game, I think we need to be fixing our weaknesses in the early game and red and white are the best colours for the job in that regard IMO.
So I tested a 5 colour list on modo as I was inspired by some of the green cards you listed and particularly that Research // Development tech you had going. I actually splurged nearly 100 tix instantly for this little experiment, all in the name of testing!
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Elder Deep-Fiend
1 Mystic Snake
Instant: 28
2 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Hallowed Moonlight
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Lightning Helix
1 Countersquall
2 Remand
1 Pulse of Murasa
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Esper Charm
1 Sultai Charm
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Cryptic Command
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Consume the Meek
1 Research // Development
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Extirpate
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Notion Thief
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
I adjusted the mana base to include some Green sources. I didn't just go 1 of everything, even though it may look like that. I Ended up shifting the fetch lands to support 4 ways to fetch basic island (3 basics) and mountain (turn 1 goblin), 3 ways to fetch plains (turn 1-3 path) and swamp (consume the meek through blood moon), and 2 ways to fetch basic forest (blood moon but forest isn't as important as the other basics.) I then cut down on Steam Vents and Hallowed Fountain to support 2 Green shocks in Stomping Ground and Breeding Pool and got rid of the check lands (Sulfur, Glacial) for a basic Forest (blood moon) and a Celestial Colonnade (more win cons due to slightly less threats.) I lost 2 Blue sources in the process which brings me down to 19 U and 1 red and 1 whited source which brings me down to 12 RW. I felt this is the lowest I could go, mana base wise to support all my spells.
My findings where:
1. Research // Development - This was the main reason I added green, in particular the toolboxy side of research. I was intrigued by your explanation of the card, especially in teachings, and it looked like super sweet 1 of tech. I replaced the 1 mainboard Surgical Extraction for it. I was able to cast both sides of the card 2-4 times and flashbacked a development with Gearhulk, boy is development super powerful. My findings where that while I loved going through my sideboard to find a silver bullet, generally, my mainboard nearly always had the right answers since it packs a lot of generic counters and removal. The Research side was very slow. I had one in my opener which I used just for testings sake, but it took until turn 5+ to actually really get a chance to tutor for a silver bullet I previously fetched with Research.
That was with Research in my opener. I can imagine it would take even longer if I had to tutor for Research // Development, and then flashback Mystical Teachings to tutor a silver bullet I tutored for. When I think about silver bullets to tutor for, ultimately, I don't think there's too many silver bullets that offer significant more power than what the mainboard can offer. The best example I can come up with is grabbing a sideboard Angel's Grace with Research against Add Nauseam, then somehow having the time to tutor for it with Mystical Teachings. This would be exactly the type of play that I'd be looking for Research // Development to give me, but the amount of time and draw steps to set it up, generally I expect the Ad Nauseam player to have already combo'd out by then.
The Development side of the card was definitely a powerful thing to do at instant speed. Against creature decks, they didn't want to give me three 3/1's, while the more controlling decks couldn't allow me the card draw which gave me a way to close the game faster with the tokens. Tbh, I actually preferred the Development side and would consider playing the card based on that, with the sideboard tutor of Research as a bonus.
I removed Surgical Extraction to test this. I actually missed SE, I know you stated that RD allows you to play less narrow cards like Teferi and Extirpate in the main, but TBH, SE, as a 1 of has been a lot more generic than it has narrow in testing. I think having a mainboard grave hate card like Surgical is pretty good in this meta. It can clear out Death's Shadow decks, Bogles as well as giving a chance against Dredge in game 1 since the deck is slower now. Even extracting all Path to Exile from deck's like Marty Proc can be a game winning play since you can keep up with recurring your own Snaps. Rafael's Loam Pox I fear will become more popular and that deck is an absolute nightmare to play against as a draw-go but SE kills off the LftL engine which is how they win. The issue I found with replacing Surgical Extraction with Research // Development is that of efficiency. These graveyard based decks need an answer ASAP and I don't think we generally will have the time to ever tutor for our grave hate cards but by playing SE in the main, it gives the chance to draw one naturally and snap it back to win game 1. All I'm saying is I think Surgical extraction isn't exactly a narrow sideboard bullet anymore and has performed solidly even against creature decks.
2. Pulse of Murasa - I replaced 1 Kolaghan's Command for this in testing. I actually really like Pulse. The 6 life gain was pretty huge and it works really well in 5 colour, bringing back a fetch land to hand. I slightly missed the 2nd K-Command, having access to a higher quantity of K-Command has always served me well, but I definitely could see Pulse replacing 1 K-Command if I am to continue with 5 colour. Both cards play similarly but if lacking maindeck lifegain, pulse is worth a slot imo.
3.Abrupt Decay - Card was great in testing. Didn't run into any Blood Moon decks while playing this list which is weird since that's all I've really been playing against recently but would assume AD would be an all-star there. I cut 1 Negate for it and didn't really miss the negate so I think AD is worth playing Green.
Those 3 cards were the main green cards I was testing. I found that my deck was a lot more durdly playing those cards, just mentally playing for the long game more often and felt like I lacked a way to really close games out as opposed to playing more burn like K-Command. Research // Development was just too inefficient IMO and unfortunately wasn't worth adding Green for as much as I hate to say it. Pulse of Murasa can be worth adding Green for if lacking maindeck life gain cards like Sphinx Rev or Blessed Alliance, but I feel the tougher mana base out-ways the addition of Pulse and the White life gain cards are serviceable enough. Abrupt Decay was worth adding Green alone but if that's all I'm really adding green for, I think K-Command and Esper Charm do a good enough job of dealing with stuff like Chalice of the Void and Blood Moon in a pinch and the strain on the mana base to support 5 colours I felt did come at a cost.
The cost of playing 5 colours -
1. Cryptic Command - This card was fairly unplayable. It took me until turn 6 on average to be able to hit UUU as I was focused on staying alive in the early turns. I looked at replacing one with Mystic Snake which felt miles better. If I were to play 5 colour, I think I'd have to cut all Cryptics for Snakes. As cool as that would be, ultimately I think Cryptic is just too important a card. It helps the deck pull ahead and adds incidental draw power by cantripping, as well as coming in clutch as an instant speed Sleep to get Consume the Meek online. Bouncing permanent EOT such as planeswalkers to set up a more mana efficient next turn is quite important too. I personally feel Cryptic is more important to play than adding a 5th colour. Funnily enough, Cryptic has been very castable in 4 colour since every fetchable land is an Island and all the important removal spells only need 1 colour.
2. Sultai Charm - I cut the third Esper Charm to test this. I like Sultai Charm. I was able to use the Ultimate Price mode as an extra removal spell which kept me in the game after mulling to 5 and having my Path Inquisitioned away. The instant speed draw is nearly identical to Esper Charm. I never really felt bad about discarding since the deck draws so many cards and has lots of lands, I tend to discard on end step a bit anyway. I do think the bulk draw of Esper Charm can be vital in more competitive, tighter match ups and the discard mode on Esper Charm is truly a powerful thing to utilise in this deck that Sultai Charm was lacking. I could see myself cutting 1 Esper Charm for 1 Sultai Charm if I were to play 5 colur, but if I'm being honest, I think I'd really be wanting as many Esper Charms as possible. I think in a 3 colour Sultai list, Sultai Charm is an excellent replacement for Esper Charm, but I don't think it's worth adding a 5th colour for since it's so similar to Esper.
3. Fatal Push - Not a green card but tested this anyway. I cut 1 bolt and 1 path for 2 push. Ended up playing against a deck with 2 Gurmag Angler and drawing Fatal Push. Instantly regretted it. But, another match was able to knock off a Monastery Swiftspear against a BR burn deck (Bump in the Night) while my opponent was mana screwedd so push was excellent to keep him behind tempo stuck on 1 land while I advanced my land dominance. Push is nice in situations like that, but I think I'd prefer Path over Push every time and would be looking to cut Lightning Bolt for Fatal Push if I were to play push in the deck. The only issue with replacing bolts, is that bolt is the main reason to be playing red for the ability to race and knock off planeswalkers. In my original 4 colour OP, I'd probably stick with Path/Bolt, but in 5 colour, a split of Path/Push/Bolt is most likely better as by juggling 5 colours, you have to sequence your spells around the lands your draw and by mixing up the removal, it hedges a bit against drawing off colour lands. I do think Fatal Push is worth the premium removal slot in deck not running white with either Terminate or Abrupt Decay as the secondary removal.
Didn't really test any sideboard silver bullets to trial with research as I couldn't really think of too many besides stuff like Extripate, Notion Thief, Teferi, Angel's Grace. Even stuff like Mindbend just seems unnecessary to fetch, even if it does cause massive blowouts against stuff like Boil since generic counters like Negate do the job and are more flexible. I did end up testing a bullet Back to Nature but didn't end up playing against Tokens or Merfolk where I feel this would be a sweet bullet to fetch up. Honestly, I really want to play Research and I've gone through the MTG Search looking at every single instant and flash card, but silver bullet wise, there aren't really anything that would completely win the game out-right which means I still would have to play my natural game plan and stock standard counters and removal deal with 90% of everything anyway. I could do stuff like Searing Win but that's just not really achieving much. The most probable use I could see for Resarch would be tutoring a spell like Anguished Unmaking or To the Slaughter against a slower midrange-controlling planeswalker deck where I'd have the time to set it up, but counterspells, burn and Creeping Tar-Pit are already solid ways to fight planeswalkers in the main that aren't too narrow anyway, and you could even play a Hero's Downfall in the main anyway since it isn't exactly narrow.
I'm not sure if I will continue with the 5 colour list, it felt smarter, but just overall less powerful than the 4 colour list, but most of all, it changed the game plan to a much more durdly one, which isn't a bad thing, but it goes against my opinion of supporting red mana to be able to finish decks like Time Warp before they get started.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. How has your testing been with Research // Development?
The basic game plan of the deck is to stabilise then to lock up and finish the game in an instant. Mystical Teachings helps achieve this by being able to tutor up any card in the entire 60, whether it be an answer, or a way to close the game. Mystical Teachings solves the problem that is common in control decks of not being able to finish the game once stabilised which gives the opponent more draw steps to find a way to win. Mystical Teachings allows you to take control of your deck and grab that win condition before your opponent can top-deck a way out. I liken Mystical Teachings to Serum Visions in draw-go control in that they are both primarily going to be used in the late game to fix draws, but one is a Sorcery that digs 3 deep, while the other is an Instant that digs 60 deep and comes with flashback.
The primary engine of the deck is Mystical Teachings.
The secondary engine of the deck is Kolaghan's Command.
These cards added together make the engine consistent and inevitable.
The core of the shell features the classic control package of counters, removal and card draw. In my list, this is illustrated by the 3's. Generally, the core cards in most decks feature as 4's, but to maximise the potential of the instant speed tutor, I had to make some hard cuts and settled on 3's being the workhorse of the deck. These core cards are what allow the deck to function optimally as a typical control deck in lieu of drawing Mystical Teachings.
The silver bullets are chosen to be teachings targets, as well as being serviceable if draw naturally. By playing Mystical Teachings, it allows the deck to play main board answers to specific decks where generally, a control deck may not have an answer to in the main. An example of this is the 1 Surgical Extraction in my list as an answer to Life from the Loam engines which can easily run a control deck out of gas. The advantage of this is, in theory, is that it gives the Mystical Teachings control deck a stronger game 1 against a format as diverse as Modern, compared to other control decks unable to play and utilise silver bullets consistently in the main board.
My 4 colour list I am currently playing (Sideboard is currently incomplete:)
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Elder Deep-Fiend
Instant: 29
3 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Lightning Helix
2 Countersquall
3 Remand
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Esper Charm
2 Mystical Teachings
3 Cryptic Command
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Consume the Meek
1 Arid Mesa
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Tempest of Light
1 Extirpate
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Notion Thief
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Vendilion Clique
Gen0syde86 Grixis list:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Vendilion Clique
Instant/Sorcery:
3 Mystical Teachings
1 Consume the Meek
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Terminate
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Cryptic Command
1 Countersquall
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Snare
1 Logic Knot
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Fatal Push
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Graven Cairns
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Notion Thief
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Dispel
3 Gifted Aetherborn
2 Crumble to Dust
2 Surgical Extraction
Anyone else playing Mystical Teachings control in Modern and would like to share their lists and ideas can post here.
Thanks
The 3 life loss is real though, but tbh, I don't think playing just 1 copy in the main should really be an issue since it does come in very handy especially to deal with stuff like Karn when you are behind.
Being at 3 mana is a big thing too. I don't think this kind of effect is really that playable at 4 mana and even though the life loss is slightly annoying, I haven't yet run into a scenario where it was to the point of uncastable.
Grimble CTM play a hell of a lot better than it looks. I was sceptical at first, but after seeing what it can do to Bant Knightfall, it's starting to grow on me. We still do have a ton of spot removal plus Cruel Utimatum to pick off some of the bigger stuff too. You could also run a Kozilek's Return, Elder Deep-Fiend tutor combo which kills every single card out of Bant Eldrazi if you want to stay entirely at instant speed without Damnation
So is Sulfur Elemental worth a look in the side these days? I'm noticing a LOT of Esper control lately and their most threatening card is Secure the Wastes but this is usually backed by infinite hard counters. Also noticing an increase of Lingering Souls and BW Tokens. An uncounterable instant speed dark anthem could be a good answer to some of this maybe...
What! Is this for real!?
Is there a reason why you want to replace V.Clique with Venser? I'm of the opinion that Clique is much needed in the deck as our late game engine of either Mystical Teachings or Snap/K-Command is the strongest in the format. What we have trouble with I think is closing speed against the combo decks. I think having 1 Clique to tutor up against combo is worthwhile in the main since our late game just gives the combo player time to keep sculpting the perfect hand. I think playing Grixis over Esper teachings gives us a way to close games faster with bolt/snap/bolt and clique seems like the perfect card to compliment this ability to win quickly when needed. Could you cut 1 Gearulk for Venser since you're playing teachings to tutor up the hulk when needed? What are your thoughts?
Ancestral Vision into Think Twice I like that idea. Works much better with the instant speed nature of the deck and is a much more reliable topdeck. You may lose some raw power that AV provides but I think TT is a solid enough card to hold the deck together.
Where I'm at currently:
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
1 Vendilion Clique
Instant: 29
3 Path to Exile
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Hallowed Moonlight
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Lightning Helix
1 Countersquall
3 Remand
1 Kozilek's Return
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Esper Charm
2 Mystical Teachings
3 Cryptic Command
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Consume the Meek
2 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Sacred Foundy
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Glacial Fortress
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Extirpate
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Celestial Purge
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Notion Thief
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Wear//Tear
1 Commandeer
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Shadow of Doubt
Cut the 1 Spell Snare for main board Surgical Extraction to help fight loam engine decks. I LOVE snare but as a 1 of, it just feels too low impact compared to what I believe SE can offer the deck. Added 1 Consume the Meek and adjusted mana base to accommodate this. Changed Negate to Countersquall after looking at your list I think your correct on squall being better than negate here. Added a 3rd Remand to Compliment the 3rd Cryptic Command, nothing like the good old Remand into Cryptic infuriating the opponent. Cut the 1 Electrolyze and 1 Elder Deep-Fiend as I felt they were slightly unnecessary when we have cards like K-Command and K-Return and lowering the curve in the process. Sideboarding - Replaced Counterflux with Mindbreak Trap in the side to better fight Time Warp decks by stopping any Gigadrowse nonsense. Testing a Commandeer as a 'wildcard' against various decks.
Also refined what the "core" of my deck is. By core I mean what cards allow the deck to function optimally without having to lean on Mystical Teachings. Generally core cards consist of 4's but I think core cards are better served as 3's in mystical teachings to maximise potential of the instant speed tutor and silver bullet outs to various decks in the main. I think 2's are too inconsistent and low quantity to be considered a core card and I've found personally in testing that 3's are good enough to play the deck without relying on teachings while at the same time allowing for more silver bullets to played in the main.
My choices for my core cards have been this:
Card Advantage: 3 Snapcaster Mage, 3 Esper Charm - I've found this to be a strong set up for consistent raw card advantage to hit land drops and relevant spells until you draw a mystical teachings or Kolaghan's Command which takes over the late game. Recently tested against Jund, 2 different Bant company decks and another value midrange deck with Craterhoof Behemoth backed by counterspells. Snap and Charm really dominated the card draw scene and I always had the gas to keep up with cards like CoCo and big value creatures.
Removal: 3 Path to Exile, 3 Lightning Bolt - Bolt takes out the fastest of aggro while Path takes out the biggest of aggro. Had a game where I went through the entire 4 Knight of the Reliquary, 2 Mutavault and 3 Primeval Titan in addition to some smaller stuff but 3 Path felt just right dealing with all the big stuff. Same with Bolt which takes out the smaller stuff as well as Planeswalkers. Played against an Esper Twix list with 4 Lingering Souls and 4 Myth Realized which were routinely 6+ P/T creatures but Path dealt with 3 of his Myth Realised and Bolt was able to provide the reach to finish the game when he tapped for Esper Charm. 3 Path and 3 Bolt felt strong against nearly every deck and the 1 CTM and 1 K-Return supplement this well.
Counters: 3 Remand, 3 Cryptic Command - Was testing with 2 Remand, 3 Cryptic but felt like I needed slightly more draw so added the 3rd Remand which made a pretty big difference in keeping me safe in the early game while securing land drops and answers. The 3/3 split gives a consistent approach to the dreaded Remand into Cryptic which is a pretty powerful play as you're up 2 extra cards and 2 extra turns to better utilise mana. Remanding into a Mystical Teachings grabbing the relevant answer has been pretty powerful in testing. The bonus draw on remand and cryptic has really helped smooth out consistency issues too.
So that's where I'm currently at for core cards of the deck and has been pretty swell in testing. The deck's primary engine is either Mystical Teachings or Snapcaster Mage/Kolghan's Command but I think the core cards above do a solid job of keeping the deck firing on all cylinders until we get to that late game dominance.
Blessed Alliance has been unbelievably good, I got to lay waste to a Geist of Saint Traft against a spirits deck and the life gain has been strong flashbacking it with Snapcaster Mage against aggro. Mystical Teachings decks in the past where generally built on Esper colours and Rest for the Weary was always a necessary evil but Blessed Alliance is just so much better as it doubles up as hard removal against Eldrazi and Death's Shadow too.
Hallowed Moonlight has overperformed in testing stopping Collected Company and Summoning Trap as well buying some much needed tempo against Moorland Haunt against spirits. I also got to hit a Lingering Souls with this too which was awesome. This was originally Shadow of Doubt but I think this card is slightly more powerful but moved shadow to the side to pair up with the soon to be new art Aven Miindcenser against Valakut and Tron.
Only real thing I don't have an answer to in the main are non-basic lands, in particular Valakut and Cavern of Souls naming Angel for Sigarda, Host of Herons which I cannot answer without a counterspell. Looking at either Wrecking Ball to tutor up or (most likely) a singleton Ghost Quarter or Tectonic Edge in the main which also would have a neat interaction with Surgical Extraction.
Lil_Bolas - Grats on the great finishes, may I ask what decks you piloted there? On the topic of the new lands, in theory I feel they could replace a tapland, perhaps a manland of some sort but will be a delicate balancing act to get right. Also new art Cryptic is going to be my bae. Will they come in foils?