And that doesn't consider the likelihood, though not guarantee, that I would run additional straight ramp like Mirari's Wake, Bloom Tender, Exploration, etc. I like signets here, but if your meta is super duper high on mass artifact destruction spells (not just the standard Austere Command, Vandalblast, and Krosan Grips that are in most decks of that color, but actually running stuff like Bane of Progress, Shatterstorm, Wave of Vitriol etc, in a lot of lists) I would consider using stuff like Sylvan Scrying, Spoils of Victory, Tithe, and other non-artifact rocks where possible. Signets get cut for players who can run 10 fetchlands and all six original dual lands - if you aren't there yet, as most of us mere mortals are, then I'd safely keep the signets around.
I would recommend keeping your big guns to things you can successfully cheat out - this doesn't seem like a deck that can use the Forge + Lattice combo. If you want to build an unbeatable army, look to cards like Asceticism, Akroma's Memorial, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, Vigor, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Archetype of Endurance and Mikaeus, the Unhallowed - note you can cheat 5/7 of those out pretty easily which is a big benefit. Iona, Shield of Emeria and Sheoldred, Whispering One also offer "protection" of a sort. In general in Commander, I don't like making two-card combos where one or both cards are near-useless alone unless those combos also just win the game together. Lattice + Forge sounds amazing, until the game you drop a turn-6 Lattice and then proceed to never draw Forge, or to never draw up to 9 mana, and get absolutely wrecked by a Vandalblast. That's why I'm a little down on Isochron Scepter and Eldrazi Monument in your list; since you aren't maximizing their potential with tons of token makers or 20+ cheap instants, the number of games you will draw them and have them sit useless in hand for a bunch of turns seems high.
I'm going to make it a point to adjust my mana base before I do much else as far as other expensive cards go. I will definitely aim for all the lands mentioned here, along with the original duals that I can pick up for under $100.
If I pick up three of the original on color duals (along with adjusting my mana base to the lands you have mentioned) would that be enough to be able to start removing at least a few of the signets?
I don't see a ton of synergy here - seems like a RGWB "Good Stuff" deck, and one with a totally insane manabase. It seems like you are wanting to crank out fatties, praying to draw Quicksilver Amulet and Elvish Piper to do so, and then having those fat monsters effectively have double strike via Saskia. I'd worry that any game where you don't draw one of those two cards or a Chromatic Lantern + mana doubler, the deck just dies as you have cards with GGG (Worldspine Wurm), WWW (Avacyn, Iona, Archangel of Tithes), and RRR (Kiki-jiki) costs and an average curve that I'd eyeball at 4 mana with minimal ramp and fixing and only 34 lands.
Assuming that is the strategy you are off to a good start since you do have a fair number of tutors and a Sunforger to tutor the tutors, but there is some refinement needed.
I think all of your cuts are good ideas. Additional cards I'd cut beyond that and the creatures I suggested would be Eldrazi Monument (no synergy as you will often just have two or three dudes out), Isochron Scepter (this isn't a deck for abusing that thing), Elixir of Immortality (run an Eldrazi or Loaming Shaman if you are that worried about decking, which shouldn't be a concern), and Nissa (there are better ways to draw cards and protect yourself). Dismember also seems kind of bad in EDH especially when you could be sunforging a Chaos Warp or Anguished Unmaking or one of your other removal spells instead. If you want to disrupt Combo I'd also consider something with Split Second or Wild Ricochet but it depends on what you mean by "heavy combo".
Hope that helps!
First of all, thank you for such lengthy feedback! I greatly appreciate it.
I am still relatively new to commander. I started with a Zur deck, in which I had an experienced EDH player help me with the mana base and it worked flawlessly. I wanted to branch out and try to create something on me own, and I am quickly finding out how much more difficult a mana base can be to construct for EDH versus the other formats. I didn't think it would be much different, but it's something I know I am going to have to play around with and learn to do more effectively for EDH.
When it comes to cutting lands, are there any on the list you'd absolutely cut in favor of others, and what rocks do you recommend? There is actually a land I have been thinking about picking up that would help with a lot of the three of one color cards, as you mentioned. That land is Lotus Vale, I just don't know if it's worth it or not. Someone in one of my groups plays a 5 color deck and he was showing it to me the other day, and it seems like it could be something that would really help me.
One question I have, is when it comes to things like Ancient Tomb, does having Mirari's Wake cause it to produce additional mana too?
I'm definitely going to add some of the cheat cards to my list. The main one I have been looking for is Sneak Attack but I am struggling to find it locally, as they usually get bought up really quick. And I just prefer to buy from a LGS when I can, versus buying online. But I might end up needing to if I can't find one soon. I am sure I can come up with some of the others you have mentioned though, as I am pretty sure I have seen a few at one of my LGS's.
I'm also going to work on my ramping. I should keep the signets for now, correct? I know I often see more tuned decks being able to cut them, but I am fearful it will slow me down too much until I get my ramp and mana base completely optimized.
Then main reason I had Eldrazi Monument in the deck is for later in the game, when I have token generators up (Nissa, Kiki) which will allow me sac outlets that way I am not having to worry about what I need to sac, and can swing over the top with all of my creatures. Do you not feel as though this is enough of a reason to have it? I am definitely open to cutting it in favor of something more effective.
Scepter is another one that is mainly just there for utility, it's not something I really saw as a card I could abuse (unlike with my Zur deck) I mainly have it in this deck for the tutors. That way I can always be fetching something I need, especially if I put Enlightened tutor on it, and can fetch for amulet, and my other big artifact creatures (which I will be adding more of based on your awesome feedback). Is this not beneficial enough to warrant having it? Maybe I am putting more valuing it than it actually should be.
And yeah Dismember was just something I added because I had removed and traded off the damnation I had in the deck. I felt as though I was sitting on too much removal when I was playing, and there were a lot of situations where I couldn't play it because I had yet to make my creatures indestructible. So I figured just having ***, and Toxic Deluge would be fine along with some targeted removal. And just make sure to protect my stuff from Disk, Damnation, and ***. I guess I could add a disk too.
What are your thoughts on running Darksteel Forge and Mycosynth Lattice? Just something else I have been thinking about to make it easier for me to play my big creatures, and just added protection by having them both out.
Personally I would go small with Saskia, then pop in every Ruination, Armageddon, Keldon Firebombers card you can find. Have most all creatures cmc 3 or less (maybe hate bears?), carry some swords/cheap equipment and beat face while others try to ramp/recover. I also like infect with Saskia. Or Stax-ia, tax non creature spells, use dorks to ramp. This big mana brew seems like it would get run over by a simple control cards like Humility, Grave Pact or Cataclysm
Also 34 land and 0 basic forests tell me this list is going to dissapoint you often,
Yeah that is how I had originally built the deck, but I wanted to try and change it up some. I will agree that Saskia tends to lend her ability more towards a really fast aggressive deck. That is actually one reason I have considered changing the commander, but when she is out there even with this build, things just seem to work. There have been many games where I don't even bother playing her. I will get more out of spending that mana other ways than having her ability up.
I have thought about an infect build, but I feel like that might be better suited for Atraxa than Saskia.
I am glad you pointed out some of these control cards. I was actually thinking about Humility today, and the impact it would have. I currently have two play groups, one being more combo/control focused, and the other being creature heavy beat down decks like this. I have yet to see any of the cards mentioned show up in any of the decks, but I agree that it is something I need to pay attention to.
If I did stick with the current style of the deck, would there be an effective way of negating some of those cards?
This is a brew I have been putting together over the past few weeks. I am wanting to figure out what I can possibly improve on to make it a little more efficient. Right now I feel like the mana base might need a little work. After the deck list, I will create a list of cards which I am considering adding to the deck to make it play more effectively.
I am also concerned about the ability to deal with combo/control heavy decks, so I would love some suggestions on things to use to help counteract those.
I would love to hear any additions you all think could be made (which I will add to list above) and if you see something that would be a perfect cut for that card, or see something to cut for something already on my list of cards I want to add, just let me know! It's tough when I see the value in all of the cards for individual reasons, so I want to try to make sure I am creating the best synergy I can.
Though I do not think this is the best build for Zur, you do seem to have a lot of enchantments, you might want Mesa Enchantress for card draw.
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What build do you feel is best for Zur? I'd love to hear any input you have!
And as far as card draw, would it be beneficial to include more options? I am definitely planning to remove some of the enchantments that have been discussed above in favor of other cards. But I am trying to figure out how important more card draw would be, especially since I can fetch Necropotence or Phyrexian Arena with Zur if I really feel like I need the card draw.
Astral Slide Zur looked pretty fun in a video I watched, not sure if it's as strong as you want it to be.
Maybe this could be the version you use for casual play.
Thank you for sharing this! Did you see videos of it played on YouTube? I will have to see if I can find some gameplay footage of it. It definitely seems like an interesting approach to Zur, and it doesn't look to be overly difficult to piece together. I might look into building this as more of a casual shell, like you mentioned. That way if I am playing a more casual games, I don't have to worry about people getting frustrated with some of the board lock combos and such in my current build.
Also - if anyone else has suggestions on how I can change around the current shell of my deck (without switching to a completely new one) I would love to hear!
I am definitely going to build separate shells for the Ad Naseum build, and the Astral Slide build if I end up liking how it plays in the video. But I would love to hear what people think some more possible edits to my current shell could be.
Though I do not think this is the best build for Zur, you do seem to have a lot of enchantments, you might want Mesa Enchantress for card draw.
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What build do you feel is best for Zur? I'd love to hear any input you have!
And as far as card draw, would it be beneficial to include more options? I am definitely planning to remove some of the enchantments that have been discussed above in favor of other cards. But I am trying to figure out how important more card draw would be, especially since I can fetch Necropotence or Phyrexian Arena with Zur if I really feel like I need the card draw.
Astral Slide Zur looked pretty fun in a video I watched, not sure if it's as strong as you want it to be.
Maybe this could be the version you use for casual play.
Thank you for sharing this! Did you see videos of it played on YouTube? I will have to see if I can find some gameplay footage of it. It definitely seems like an interesting approach to Zur, and it doesn't look to be overly difficult to piece together. I might look into building this as more of a casual shell, like you mentioned. That way if I am playing a more casual games, I don't have to worry about people getting frustrated with some of the board lock combos and such in my current build.
Though I do not think this is the best build for Zur, you do seem to have a lot of enchantments, you might want Mesa Enchantress for card draw.
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What build do you feel is best for Zur? I'd love to hear any input you have!
And as far as card draw, would it be beneficial to include more options? I am definitely planning to remove some of the enchantments that have been discussed above in favor of other cards. But I am trying to figure out how important more card draw would be, especially since I can fetch Necropotence or Phyrexian Arena with Zur if I really feel like I need the card draw.
It really depends on $$$ and how competitive you want to go, it can get pretty costly.
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Could you recommend a few key replacements? The only thing I am really wanting to stay away from until I have more expendable income is the original duals. I might eventually cheap up the cheapest esper one, but that's about it. So I'd prefer to stay under the $100 range on individual cards.
Though I do not think this is the best build for Zur, you do seem to have a lot of enchantments, you might want Mesa Enchantress for card draw.
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What build do you feel is best for Zur? I'd love to hear any input you have!
And as far as card draw, would it be beneficial to include more options? I am definitely planning to remove some of the enchantments that have been discussed above in favor of other cards. But I am trying to figure out how important more card draw would be, especially since I can fetch Necropotence or Phyrexian Arena with Zur if I really feel like I need the card draw.
For Ad Nauseum you run angel's grace and/or phyrexian unlife to draw your whole deck. You then need some rituals a la Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, some ways to make Blue Mana and play a Laboratory Maniac and win by Gushing or otherwise drawing cards, ideally multiple instant speed draw spells since you can react with one if they try to kill the Lab Maniac while it's on the stack. If budget is no issue, you can also play Lion's Eye Diamond with Yawgmoth's Will.
I will have to look into trying this! I will likely build it as a second shell just to test out. It sounds like a fun way of going about it.
With Ad Nauseum you need to run a bunch of cards to enable it and win, which cuts into the space for control cards. You're playing combo at that point and you're gonna run counters to protect the combo and not care much for what everyone else is doing.
You can easily cut all but 2 O-Ring effects. I chose to run grasp of fate and detention sphere, furthermore I have darksteel mutation to deal with commanders but imprison in the moon also achieves that more versatile. I don't expect to fetch spot removal with Zur more than once a game really and I don't like to run non permanet removal quite as much.
Recently took out Arcane Laboratory (Rule of Law) out of my deck because it'd impact myself too much opponents could collude to kill my Zur with me unable to counter since it's a symmetric effect.
This version of Zur is more a Stax deck than control though so my observations don't apply wholly. On a staxed table you could fetch a dozen times with Zur since by himself he doesn't end games quickly.
What would be good enablers for Ad Nauseam? If I went that route, would it be more beneficial to build that as more of a second shell, versus just switching to that completely? That would give me more options to adjust with my local meta too.
The main reason I have kept the taxing effects in, is due to my meta having some really aggressive creature focused decks. A few Atraxa decks, one of them being infect. So I try to use those as ways to prevent being overrun until I can set things up to better deal with the threats. I can definitely see removing one of them though, maybe two. I just feel like it can be highly beneficial late game if I need to do a mana wipe with Armageddon, and that leaves me sitting comfortably since I really don't have to worry about being attacked until people build back their mana base, if they even can at that point (aside from rocks).
I can see Rule of Law having downsides. I haven't personally ran into an issue with it on my end, but it's something I would be willing to remove it for something else. What did you replace it with?
I might have missed this being mentioned in a previous reply, but if you are going to run Thespian's Stage, why not go ahead and run Dark Depths too? Just gives you another win condition with Marit Lage when you use Thespian's Stage to make a copy of Dark Depths since the copy will come in play without the tokens, and then you just sack both of them for the token.
Someone mentioned it before, but the Ad Nauseam combo is typically where Zur wants to be. Also running the Bitterblossom + Contamination lock is hard for most people to stop. I cannot express just how good having Force of Will and Pact of Negation to protect the Ad Nauseam combo if you decide to run it ( also just really good to have otherwise). I believe that with Zur more stax is always better and one of the best is Winter Orb as you tutor most things to play and everyone else gets hit hard and also Trinisphere for most of the same reasons.
For a board wipe you have wrath of god but I would recommend Winds of Rath instead as it will probably not hit Zur. For things to take out I would suggest Battle Mastery and Triclopean Sight just because they seem like the weakest cards you have slotted.
I am interested in the possibility of the Ad Nauseam combo, but I will be honest in saying that I am not sure how it works. Also, based on the original comment about Ad Nauseam, does it take me away from the control style of gameplay? Control is my preferred play-style in competitive magic play (any format) so I want to try and make sure it still feels like a solid control deck while still having some solid win conditions that I do not already play.
Force of Will is something I have been looking at a lot. I am just unsure of how good it might be over the counters I already have, since I am running so few blue cards. Wouldn't this be somewhat of a drawback if I had to sac one of them in order to use Force of Will? And Pact of Negation is something I am definitely interested in. My only concern is that it is a card I have never really played with, so I am a little unsure as to how I can always make sure to have the mana available to pay the upkeep cost.
Winter Orb is such a fun card, I will definitely look into making this an addition to the deck. I had looked at it before, but I was a little hesitant because I feel like I don't have enough rocks that tap for colored mana. Would it be beneficial to add more if I plan to put in the Winter Orb? Trinisphere is also something I will look into adding. It seems like it could be a beneficial card to have in order to protect my board from counters and such.
I will also look into the possibility of switching out Wrath of God for Winds of Wrath I am just worried about the additional mana cost. Typically I can have indestructible on Zur before a board wipe hits, which then protects it. The only things in my meta that usually worries me are things such as Toxic Deluge.
I could definitely remove Battle Mastery. The only reason I have Triclopean Sight in the deck is because of the Stasis/Forsaken City combo, allowing me to continue to fetch each turn. But since I am considering removing that combo, I could remove Triclopean Sight at that point.
You could cut more than a dozen of those enchantments. At best you're gonna fetch 5 or 6 times with Zur in a game. Having a toolbox is fine but 34 is overkill.
At a competitive table you need ways to protect Zur and guarantee to cast turn 3. More lands and mana acceleration, card disadvantage doesn't matter when Necropotence is what you're fetching for every time. Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, Lotus Petal, if you have the necessary artifact count a Mox Opal does it as well.
No cavern of souls makes playing the expedition map almost pointless. Some haste enablers are missing as well, why no Lightning Greaves?
There's a lack of land destruction, Zur can deal with everything that's not a land already. Boseiju is one of those cards giving Zur decks lots of troubles. Strip Mine, Ghost Quarters and Wasteland give you access to a lock in conjunction with Crucible of Worlds.
If you don't get the Ad Nauseam combo deck then you are a control deck.
What are some enchantments you'd recommend dropping? I was afraid 34 might be a lot, but the deck has worked quite well at competitive tables making me hesitant to cut a lot as I am still learning which are best for utility purposes. But I am absolutely up for making some cuts where needed. One cut I have been thinking of making is Stasis which would allow me to also cut Forsaken City in favor of another land. But that is the only enchantment cut I have really thought about.
I am definitely interested in getting more mana rocks. I was running a mana crypt for awhile, but it ended up hurting me a lot more than it helped. I am going to look into a Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal.
Lightning Greaves is in my list, you might have missed it when you were going through. I do not run the other boots though.
I never really thought of land destruction as a option. I don't see Boseiju, Who Shelters All much at the competitive tables so it really hasn't been something that has crossed my mind. If I remove the Stasis/Forsaken City combo I will definitely look into putting one of those lands in the place of Forsaken City.
Does anyone else have some thoughts on things I could cut and change around? Would greatly appreciate additional feedback.
Hi everyone! I am fairly new to EDH. Only been playing actively for a few weeks, after having started playing it at my LGS using the owners decks. This deck is actually one of those decks, which I had bought from the owner. (Has a few changes I have made) I am looking for ways to possibly improve it. It is already a highly competitive build (based on what I have learned and understand about EDH) but I feel like there are ways out there to push it even further that I am not aware of. This deck is mainly used for commander pod nights, as I find the power level of it a little too high for casual play. I don't like the idea of using it for casual, so I want to try to figure out ways to make it even more competitive within the competitive scene.
My local EDH meta is fairly tough. This deck is well known within the community since before I bought it, it was used by the LGS owner I bought it from quite often in competitive play. This makes it a big target at the table, so I am hoping to figure out more ways to have answers and be able to not have to worry as much about the table hate this deck often receives by those that know it.
Being a newer EDH player, I am not as familiar with what to look out for as far as EDH cards go. So I would be extremely appreciative of any feedback on cards I could remove, and the best replacements for them. I feel like there are possibly some enchantments that could be removed, but I am not sure what to replace them with. An I have no idea what could be added to help push it even further in the competitive scene.
Thank you in advance for any feedback and advice. I would love the chance to get to discuss ways I can improve this deck, to make it even more competitive and be able to stand up to the table hate better.
I'm going to make it a point to adjust my mana base before I do much else as far as other expensive cards go. I will definitely aim for all the lands mentioned here, along with the original duals that I can pick up for under $100.
If I pick up three of the original on color duals (along with adjusting my mana base to the lands you have mentioned) would that be enough to be able to start removing at least a few of the signets?
First of all, thank you for such lengthy feedback! I greatly appreciate it.
I am still relatively new to commander. I started with a Zur deck, in which I had an experienced EDH player help me with the mana base and it worked flawlessly. I wanted to branch out and try to create something on me own, and I am quickly finding out how much more difficult a mana base can be to construct for EDH versus the other formats. I didn't think it would be much different, but it's something I know I am going to have to play around with and learn to do more effectively for EDH.
When it comes to cutting lands, are there any on the list you'd absolutely cut in favor of others, and what rocks do you recommend? There is actually a land I have been thinking about picking up that would help with a lot of the three of one color cards, as you mentioned. That land is Lotus Vale, I just don't know if it's worth it or not. Someone in one of my groups plays a 5 color deck and he was showing it to me the other day, and it seems like it could be something that would really help me.
One question I have, is when it comes to things like Ancient Tomb, does having Mirari's Wake cause it to produce additional mana too?
I'm definitely going to add some of the cheat cards to my list. The main one I have been looking for is Sneak Attack but I am struggling to find it locally, as they usually get bought up really quick. And I just prefer to buy from a LGS when I can, versus buying online. But I might end up needing to if I can't find one soon. I am sure I can come up with some of the others you have mentioned though, as I am pretty sure I have seen a few at one of my LGS's.
I'm also going to work on my ramping. I should keep the signets for now, correct? I know I often see more tuned decks being able to cut them, but I am fearful it will slow me down too much until I get my ramp and mana base completely optimized.
Then main reason I had Eldrazi Monument in the deck is for later in the game, when I have token generators up (Nissa, Kiki) which will allow me sac outlets that way I am not having to worry about what I need to sac, and can swing over the top with all of my creatures. Do you not feel as though this is enough of a reason to have it? I am definitely open to cutting it in favor of something more effective.
Scepter is another one that is mainly just there for utility, it's not something I really saw as a card I could abuse (unlike with my Zur deck) I mainly have it in this deck for the tutors. That way I can always be fetching something I need, especially if I put Enlightened tutor on it, and can fetch for amulet, and my other big artifact creatures (which I will be adding more of based on your awesome feedback). Is this not beneficial enough to warrant having it? Maybe I am putting more valuing it than it actually should be.
And yeah Dismember was just something I added because I had removed and traded off the damnation I had in the deck. I felt as though I was sitting on too much removal when I was playing, and there were a lot of situations where I couldn't play it because I had yet to make my creatures indestructible. So I figured just having ***, and Toxic Deluge would be fine along with some targeted removal. And just make sure to protect my stuff from Disk, Damnation, and ***. I guess I could add a disk too.
What are your thoughts on running Darksteel Forge and Mycosynth Lattice? Just something else I have been thinking about to make it easier for me to play my big creatures, and just added protection by having them both out.
Yeah that is how I had originally built the deck, but I wanted to try and change it up some. I will agree that Saskia tends to lend her ability more towards a really fast aggressive deck. That is actually one reason I have considered changing the commander, but when she is out there even with this build, things just seem to work. There have been many games where I don't even bother playing her. I will get more out of spending that mana other ways than having her ability up.
I have thought about an infect build, but I feel like that might be better suited for Atraxa than Saskia.
I am glad you pointed out some of these control cards. I was actually thinking about Humility today, and the impact it would have. I currently have two play groups, one being more combo/control focused, and the other being creature heavy beat down decks like this. I have yet to see any of the cards mentioned show up in any of the decks, but I agree that it is something I need to pay attention to.
If I did stick with the current style of the deck, would there be an effective way of negating some of those cards?
I am also concerned about the ability to deal with combo/control heavy decks, so I would love some suggestions on things to use to help counteract those.
1 Saskia the Unyielding
//Planeswalker:
1 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
//Creature: (31)
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Zealous Conscripts
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Queen Marchesa
1 Archangel of Tithes
1 Primeval Protector
1 Knight of the White Orchid
1 Zurgo Helmsmasher
1 Iroas, God of Victory
1 Managorger Hydra
1 Elvish Piper
1 Siege Rhino
1 Reyhan, Last of the Abzan
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Aurelia, the Warleader
1 Taurean Mauler
1 Worldspine Wurm
1 Shaman of Forgotten Ways
1 Brion Stoutarm
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Gisela, Blade of Goldnight
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Zhur-Taa Druid
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Skullclamp
1 Sol Ring
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Eldrazi Monument
1 Strionic Resonator
1 Conqueror's Flail
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Gruul Signet
1 Golgari Signet
1 Boros Signet
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Sunforger
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Quicksilver Amulet
//Sorcery: (4)
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Armageddon
1 Wrath of God
//Instant: (10)
1 Boros Charm
1 Dismember
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Utter End
1 Abzan Charm
1 Worldly Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Naya Charm
1 Mirari's Wake
1 Beastmaster Ascension
1 Nevermore
//Land: (34)
4 Plains
4 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Command Tower
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Godless Shrine
1 Battlefield Forge
1 Cinder Glade
1 Rootbound Crag
1 Dryad Arbor
1 City of Brass
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Mana Confluence
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Sulfurous Springs
1 Karplusan Forest
1 Savage Lands
1 Marsh Flats
1 Mossfire Valley
1 Pendelhaven
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Canopy Vista
1 Sunpetal Grove
Cards I am looking to add:
Domri Rade
Lotus Cobra
Bloom Tender
Mana Reflection
Mother of Runes
Rings of Brighthearth
Scroll Rack
Seedborn Muse
Sneak Attack
Tooth and Nail
Sheoldred, Whispering One
Taiga
Plateau
Savannah
Liliana of the Veil
Summoning Trap
Lotus Vale
Wurmcoil Engine
Whip of Erebos
Cards I can possibly cut (?):
Birds of Paradise
Primeval Protector
Brion Stoutarm
Beastmaster Ascension
I would love to hear any additions you all think could be made (which I will add to list above) and if you see something that would be a perfect cut for that card, or see something to cut for something already on my list of cards I want to add, just let me know! It's tough when I see the value in all of the cards for individual reasons, so I want to try to make sure I am creating the best synergy I can.
Awesome, I will take a look!
Also - if anyone else has suggestions on how I can change around the current shell of my deck (without switching to a completely new one) I would love to hear!
I am definitely going to build separate shells for the Ad Naseum build, and the Astral Slide build if I end up liking how it plays in the video. But I would love to hear what people think some more possible edits to my current shell could be.
Thank you for sharing this! Did you see videos of it played on YouTube? I will have to see if I can find some gameplay footage of it. It definitely seems like an interesting approach to Zur, and it doesn't look to be overly difficult to piece together. I might look into building this as more of a casual shell, like you mentioned. That way if I am playing a more casual games, I don't have to worry about people getting frustrated with some of the board lock combos and such in my current build.
Could you recommend a few key replacements? The only thing I am really wanting to stay away from until I have more expendable income is the original duals. I might eventually cheap up the cheapest esper one, but that's about it. So I'd prefer to stay under the $100 range on individual cards.
What build do you feel is best for Zur? I'd love to hear any input you have!
And as far as card draw, would it be beneficial to include more options? I am definitely planning to remove some of the enchantments that have been discussed above in favor of other cards. But I am trying to figure out how important more card draw would be, especially since I can fetch Necropotence or Phyrexian Arena with Zur if I really feel like I need the card draw.
I will have to look into trying this! I will likely build it as a second shell just to test out. It sounds like a fun way of going about it.
What would be good enablers for Ad Nauseam? If I went that route, would it be more beneficial to build that as more of a second shell, versus just switching to that completely? That would give me more options to adjust with my local meta too.
The main reason I have kept the taxing effects in, is due to my meta having some really aggressive creature focused decks. A few Atraxa decks, one of them being infect. So I try to use those as ways to prevent being overrun until I can set things up to better deal with the threats. I can definitely see removing one of them though, maybe two. I just feel like it can be highly beneficial late game if I need to do a mana wipe with Armageddon, and that leaves me sitting comfortably since I really don't have to worry about being attacked until people build back their mana base, if they even can at that point (aside from rocks).
I can see Rule of Law having downsides. I haven't personally ran into an issue with it on my end, but it's something I would be willing to remove it for something else. What did you replace it with?
I am interested in the possibility of the Ad Nauseam combo, but I will be honest in saying that I am not sure how it works. Also, based on the original comment about Ad Nauseam, does it take me away from the control style of gameplay? Control is my preferred play-style in competitive magic play (any format) so I want to try and make sure it still feels like a solid control deck while still having some solid win conditions that I do not already play.
Force of Will is something I have been looking at a lot. I am just unsure of how good it might be over the counters I already have, since I am running so few blue cards. Wouldn't this be somewhat of a drawback if I had to sac one of them in order to use Force of Will? And Pact of Negation is something I am definitely interested in. My only concern is that it is a card I have never really played with, so I am a little unsure as to how I can always make sure to have the mana available to pay the upkeep cost.
Winter Orb is such a fun card, I will definitely look into making this an addition to the deck. I had looked at it before, but I was a little hesitant because I feel like I don't have enough rocks that tap for colored mana. Would it be beneficial to add more if I plan to put in the Winter Orb? Trinisphere is also something I will look into adding. It seems like it could be a beneficial card to have in order to protect my board from counters and such.
I will also look into the possibility of switching out Wrath of God for Winds of Wrath I am just worried about the additional mana cost. Typically I can have indestructible on Zur before a board wipe hits, which then protects it. The only things in my meta that usually worries me are things such as Toxic Deluge.
I could definitely remove Battle Mastery. The only reason I have Triclopean Sight in the deck is because of the Stasis/Forsaken City combo, allowing me to continue to fetch each turn. But since I am considering removing that combo, I could remove Triclopean Sight at that point.
What are some enchantments you'd recommend dropping? I was afraid 34 might be a lot, but the deck has worked quite well at competitive tables making me hesitant to cut a lot as I am still learning which are best for utility purposes. But I am absolutely up for making some cuts where needed. One cut I have been thinking of making is Stasis which would allow me to also cut Forsaken City in favor of another land. But that is the only enchantment cut I have really thought about.
I am definitely interested in getting more mana rocks. I was running a mana crypt for awhile, but it ended up hurting me a lot more than it helped. I am going to look into a Chrome Mox and Lotus Petal.
Lightning Greaves is in my list, you might have missed it when you were going through. I do not run the other boots though.
As far as Expedition Map goes, isn't it still good for getting things like Hall of the Bandit Lord out?
I never really thought of land destruction as a option. I don't see Boseiju, Who Shelters All much at the competitive tables so it really hasn't been something that has crossed my mind. If I remove the Stasis/Forsaken City combo I will definitely look into putting one of those lands in the place of Forsaken City.
Does anyone else have some thoughts on things I could cut and change around? Would greatly appreciate additional feedback.
My local EDH meta is fairly tough. This deck is well known within the community since before I bought it, it was used by the LGS owner I bought it from quite often in competitive play. This makes it a big target at the table, so I am hoping to figure out more ways to have answers and be able to not have to worry as much about the table hate this deck often receives by those that know it.
Being a newer EDH player, I am not as familiar with what to look out for as far as EDH cards go. So I would be extremely appreciative of any feedback on cards I could remove, and the best replacements for them. I feel like there are possibly some enchantments that could be removed, but I am not sure what to replace them with. An I have no idea what could be added to help push it even further in the competitive scene.
1 Zur the Enchanter
Lands (33):
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Caves of Koilos
1 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Marsh Flats
1 Nimbus Maze
1 Mystic Gate
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Arcane Sanctum
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Polluted Delta
1 Forsaken City
1 Watery Grave
1 River of Tears
1 Reflecting Pool
1 Mana Confluence
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
Enchantments (34):
1 Copy Enchantment
1 Rest in Peace
1 Diplomatic Immunity
1 Ethereal Armor
1 Empyrial Armor
1 Prison Term
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Blind Obedience
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Propaganda
1 Nevermore
1 Detention Sphere
1 Daybreak Coronet
1 Imprisoned in the Moon
1 Suppression Field
1 Stony Silence
1 Stasis
1 Enchanted Evening
1 Steel of the Godhead
1 Underworld Dreams
1 Back to Basics
1 Darksteel Mutation
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Triclopean Sight
1 Banishing Light
1 Rule of Law
1 Grasp of Fate
1 Battle Mystery
1 Necropotence
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Energy Field
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Shielded by Faith
1 Greater Auramancy
1 Arcane Denial
1 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Negate
1 Counterspell
1 Swan Song
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Dispel
1 Return to Dust
Artifacts (10):
1 Orzhov Signet
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Dimir Signet
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Sol Ring
1 Expedition Map
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Elixir of Immortality
1 Strionic Resonator
1 Chromatic Lantern
Sorcery (5):
1 Damnation
1 Armageddon
1 Wrath of God
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Demonic Tutor
Creatures (4):
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Hanna, Ship's Navigator
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Snapcaster Mage
Thank you in advance for any feedback and advice. I would love the chance to get to discuss ways I can improve this deck, to make it even more competitive and be able to stand up to the table hate better.