Looking at the Birmingham Grand Prix results, do you think Shrine of Burning Rage is worth considering?
I'm thinking of moving the Goblin Rabblemaster to the sideboard for these, specifically for a local PPTQ (where I probably won't be facing my LGS's regulars who already know the deck, and the sideboard shenanigans).
CMC is 2 (a less crowded spot than 3).
I run about 25-27 red spells total, so it should tick up consistently. Extra spells cast through Chandra's +1 almost help boost this up.
It allows you to run more maindeck sweepers (ex: Pyroclasm) without worrying about blowing up your own Rabblemasters.
This would leave the maindeck "almost" creatureless (just 2x Magus of the Moon and 1x Hazoret the Fervent for me). When people side out their creature removal for artifact removal, I'd swap the Shrines for Rabblemasters.
I think the Shrine is less explosive than Rabblemaster, but could have better interaction with the rest of the deck.
A little birdy told me...it's already in the works. A discussion between Saffron Olive and one of our principal contributors has begun.
I believe that could be me. :-P
Some months ago, I had written to Saffron Olive to let him know about this thread, and how the deck had evolved.
Then in the same week that Ray pulled off his big win, Saffron mentioned during a stream that he may revisit Free Win Red soon, but that it needed some tweaking. The timing felt right to share Ray's list and the accomplishment!
I'll get back to you guys shortly with a detailed report soon, but I've had good success with Pyro Prison on my end for the last few weeks. I went 3-1 and my last two FNMs, but most importantly, in both cases came up "1 game short" of landing "absolute first place" (instead ending up "tied for 1st place" with multiple other players). The latest iteration of the deck is very, very solid.
@Vegita1998: I see a lot of attraction in having a repeatable source of damage *that can target creatures*. But personally, I also see too many downsides for it to be worth it.
Legacy Moon Stompy has the luxury of packing a whopping 15 artifacts, meaning you always have a great target for Quicksmith Rebel. You can use it to empower an otherwise non-threatening Chrome Mox, meaning an opponent with artifact destruction must choose between destroying a Chalice of the Void, and Ensnaring Bridge or "that other thing that pings for 2 dmg per turn".
With just 8 artifacts, and all of them crucial to the game plan, I think the Modern version has fewer targets... and Quicksmith Rebel quickly turns lock pieces into prime "2 for 1" targets against artifact removal.
Looking at Raystack's list, it feels like Hazoret the Fervent fills a similar role (despite not pinging off creatures), at the same CMC, but being much more difficult to deal with.
First: a standing ovation to Raystack for the awesome, awesome finish. ;-)
I thought I'd pitch in on the whole Tormenting Voice debate. I was very skeptical at first, being very attached to the 4x Magma Jet I've been running for months. Still, I felt it was worth trying.
I've played a few weeks of FNM with 0x Magma Jet, 3x Tormenting Voice. Then a split of 2x Magma Jet and 2x Tormenting Voice.
MAGMA JET
Great to burn away Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch and other mana dorks. It feels silly to let one of these slip through on turn one, then slam a Blood Moon just too late. I've faced several combo decks where "bolting the bird" right away (rather than waiting until I found a sweeper) would have gained me an extra turn before they went off.
Great at setting up future draws. Magma Jet allows you to sequence your next turn, or stack things in the right order for Chandra, Torch of Defiance's +1. Also works well with Sin Prodder (if anyone else besides me runs it).
It acts as a combat trick. After you've played a Magma Jet once and you're attacking with untapped mana, your opponent will keep it in mind. That means they could think twice about blocking your 1/1 "Suicide Goblin" from Goblin Rabblemaster with a bigger creature. You can also use it alongside one of your 2/2 creatures to take down a 4/4 Thought-Knot Seer or other big threat, whether attacking or blocking, for example.
2 damage to the face is still 2 damage to the face. I've lost plenty of games where I was very close to finishing off my opponent, but they ended up stabilizing the board and I entered "top deck" mode. That 2 damage represents one more Chandra activation, one turn closer to winning.
TORMENTING VOICE
Helps with the mana-fixing. To me, that's the biggest advantage over Magma Jet. If I miss a land drop, I can cast Tormenting Voice and draw the land I need -right away- rather than having to wait until my next draw step. That's also true of anything you could need "right now" (ex: specific sideboard cards).
Allows you to run fewer lands. Running Magma Jet and 22 lands, I ended up mana-screwed or mana-flooded on a regular basis. Since running Tormenting Voice, I've felt better consistency, even after dropping down to 21 lands.
It provides zero information to your opponent. If you Magma Jet and scry "top-top" or "top-bottom", your opponent can expect you've found what you're looking for, that something could impact the game next turn, and plan accordingly (ex: not tap out this turn and keep up a counterspell). Tormenting Voice just draws you cards "blindly".
I'll also second that I've never had Tormenting Voice countered, and if I did, I'd be down "1x card I didn't need + 1x Tormenting Voice", which sounds like a decent trade for 1x counterspell.
So far, I've never lost a game because I was stuck with Tormenting Voice... though I've lost a few where Tormenting Voice wasn't a Magma Jet. And vice-versa.
So on my end, at the moment, I'm settling on a 2/2 split.
I'm thinking of ditching the 2x Roast from the sideboard to experiment with these. For 1R, Roast deals 5 dmg, at sorcery-speed, to a non-flying creature.
For 2R (the Entwine cost), Grab the Reins allows you to:
Steal and sacrifice any opponent's creature
Follow up by dealing a ton of damage to the face OR killing ANOTHER creature
If you're feeling ballsy, you can even use it to just sacrifice your own Goblin Rabblemaster after combat, and dealing an extra 5-6 dmg out of nowhere.
- Sin Prodder - full playset of devils. Never had a chance to test them. Can anyone playing them give some view?
I like them as a 2-of. They help apply extra pressure, help improve draws (when an opponent makes you throw away a Mountain for free, that's one less Mountain to draw through before getting to the good stuff).
I don't play them early (your opponent could lock you out of what you want), but use them to refuel if the game drags on and keep applying pressure.
Multiple copies in play could make Ensnaring Bridge backfire (if your opponent lets you draw more stuff than you can cast), that's why I like to stick with 2. And if you bring in specific Sideboard hate cards, you consider siding out Sin Prodder (so your opponent doesn't force you to throw away a sideboard card at a key moment).
ah another fan of Chandra's playset and also full set of Magma Jet's. I am also planning to up the Jet count to four since I really like to see it almost every moment of the game. Question - how relevant for this deck is Spellskite (no bogles, no infect - no need?)
I've gone back and forth, on/off Spellskite, both in maindeck and sideboard, several times. Here are my two cents:
If you run a near-creatureless maindeck, Spellskite is great to bring in as a sideboard card to protect your lock pieces, once your opponent has sided out their removal.
Spellskite does a fantastic job of protecting lock pieces - each copy means your opponent needs to draw one more answer (typically through a Chalice of the Void) to get rid of a key artifact/enchantment.
However, Spellskite doesn't add any pressure. When facing Tron or decks with a strong late-game, you risk, eventually being out-drawn while digging for a win condition.
I also haven't been as impressed with Spellskite since running more creatures maindeck (Goblin Rabblemaster, Pia and Kiran Nalaar, Sin Prodder...). If your opponent is packing creature AND enchantment/artifact removal, Spellskite doesn't stay on the board very long.
I've personally dropped it since I haven't run into much Infect/Boggles in my meta lately (where it really was the perfect card), and I've shifted away from "Control Style" to a more aggro version of the deck.
I finally had the chance to sleeve up and play at my FLGS after a few weeks away. I ended the evening 3-1 (including an opponent who dropped) with the list below:
I included a pair of Sin Prodder as an experiment, and so far, I'm pleased with them. Even when an opponent makes you discard a land for 0 life, that's one less dead draw. And Magma Jet allows for some fun card-stacking shenanigans. The only card I mind losing away is Chalice of the Void.
I see them as filling a similar role as Crystal Ball (improving your draw), but on a 3/2 Menace body, with some extra pressure on your opponent's life total. I haven't experienced any problems with Ensnaring Bridge for now (since I'm only running a pair of Sin Prodder). Sure, they're a target for removal... but I see that as one less Fatal Push for the Goblin Rabblemaster.
3) Just thought of this, but I am wondering if we could make liberal use of Pia's Revolution. I read the entire thread and no mention of it was ever made.
I had actually toyed with the idea when we discussed Mind Stone. Here's a rough draft :
The plan was to run a (near) creature-less deck and nothing with a CMC of 1 (for Chalice). It kept just the bare bones of a Red Prison. Once the game is stalled, start pinging with Ghirapur Aether Grid. Pia's Revolution essentially turns every Mind Stone or extra Mox Opal into Lighting Bolt.
I eventually dropped it because the mana curve felt "clunky", and I couldn't figure out how to solve it without adding 1 CMC artifacts.
Among interesting inclusions, Sin Prodder caught my attention. Is this worth considering? In any matchups where Ensnaring Bridge is wasted (I know my local metagame is full of control and combo decks where it doesn't do all that much), this could provide card advantage or pressure an opponent's life total. Since we have soooo many cards that cost 3-4, this could be interesting, and gets quickly ridiculous in multiple copies.
In a control-heavy meta, would it make sense to maindeck 4x Goblin Rabblemaster and 4x Sin Prodder, and keep Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard? Essentially, this would be the opposite of the traditional "creatureless deck into creature deck".
1x Blooming Marsh
1x Breeding Pool
1x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
2x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Polluted Delta
1x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
Sorcery (9)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
3x Traverse the Ulvenwald
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Cast Down
2x Countersquall
3x Fatal Push
1x Nameless Inversion
1x Spell Snare
3x Stubborn Denial
4x Thought Scour
Creature (13)
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Hooting Mandrills
2x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
Artifact (3)
3x Mishra's Bauble
1x Basilisk Collar
2x Collective Brutality
1x Creeping Tar Pit
2x Echoing Truth
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Feed the Clan
2x Golgari Charm
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Phantasmal Image
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
I timed out against Grixis Death's Shadow (1-1-0), won against a Merfolk/Blood Moon brew (2-0) and KCI (2-1).
The deck is fun and highly interactive, and it's amusing to see opponents try to play around non-existent Death's Shadows.
Looking at the Birmingham Grand Prix results, do you think Shrine of Burning Rage is worth considering?
I'm thinking of moving the Goblin Rabblemaster to the sideboard for these, specifically for a local PPTQ (where I probably won't be facing my LGS's regulars who already know the deck, and the sideboard shenanigans).
This would leave the maindeck "almost" creatureless (just 2x Magus of the Moon and 1x Hazoret the Fervent for me). When people side out their creature removal for artifact removal, I'd swap the Shrines for Rabblemasters.
I think the Shrine is less explosive than Rabblemaster, but could have better interaction with the rest of the deck.
What do you guys think?
I believe that could be me. :-P
Some months ago, I had written to Saffron Olive to let him know about this thread, and how the deck had evolved.
Then in the same week that Ray pulled off his big win, Saffron mentioned during a stream that he may revisit Free Win Red soon, but that it needed some tweaking. The timing felt right to share Ray's list and the accomplishment!
I'll get back to you guys shortly with a detailed report soon, but I've had good success with Pyro Prison on my end for the last few weeks. I went 3-1 and my last two FNMs, but most importantly, in both cases came up "1 game short" of landing "absolute first place" (instead ending up "tied for 1st place" with multiple other players). The latest iteration of the deck is very, very solid.
Legacy Moon Stompy has the luxury of packing a whopping 15 artifacts, meaning you always have a great target for Quicksmith Rebel. You can use it to empower an otherwise non-threatening Chrome Mox, meaning an opponent with artifact destruction must choose between destroying a Chalice of the Void, and Ensnaring Bridge or "that other thing that pings for 2 dmg per turn".
With just 8 artifacts, and all of them crucial to the game plan, I think the Modern version has fewer targets... and Quicksmith Rebel quickly turns lock pieces into prime "2 for 1" targets against artifact removal.
Looking at Raystack's list, it feels like Hazoret the Fervent fills a similar role (despite not pinging off creatures), at the same CMC, but being much more difficult to deal with.
Still, looking at that Legacy list... how I envy those glorious Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors!
First: a standing ovation to Raystack for the awesome, awesome finish. ;-)
I thought I'd pitch in on the whole Tormenting Voice debate. I was very skeptical at first, being very attached to the 4x Magma Jet I've been running for months. Still, I felt it was worth trying.
I've played a few weeks of FNM with 0x Magma Jet, 3x Tormenting Voice. Then a split of 2x Magma Jet and 2x Tormenting Voice.
MAGMA JET
TORMENTING VOICE
I'll also second that I've never had Tormenting Voice countered, and if I did, I'd be down "1x card I didn't need + 1x Tormenting Voice", which sounds like a decent trade for 1x counterspell.
So far, I've never lost a game because I was stuck with Tormenting Voice... though I've lost a few where Tormenting Voice wasn't a Magma Jet. And vice-versa.
So on my end, at the moment, I'm settling on a 2/2 split.
Too good to be true: I didn't catch that Entwine was an additional cost. The way it's phrased on the card made me think it worked like Flashback.
Back to Roast, then.
Good point, didn't realize the change of ownership affected the power of these creatures.
You're still rid of them, at least. ;-)
I'm thinking of ditching the 2x Roast from the sideboard to experiment with these. For 1R, Roast deals 5 dmg, at sorcery-speed, to a non-flying creature.
For 2R (the Entwine cost), Grab the Reins allows you to:
Against Death's Shadow, it could be instant game over.
Insanely large Knight of the Reliquary? No problem.
If you're feeling ballsy, you can even use it to just sacrifice your own Goblin Rabblemaster after combat, and dealing an extra 5-6 dmg out of nowhere.
What do you guys think?
I like them as a 2-of. They help apply extra pressure, help improve draws (when an opponent makes you throw away a Mountain for free, that's one less Mountain to draw through before getting to the good stuff).
I don't play them early (your opponent could lock you out of what you want), but use them to refuel if the game drags on and keep applying pressure.
Multiple copies in play could make Ensnaring Bridge backfire (if your opponent lets you draw more stuff than you can cast), that's why I like to stick with 2. And if you bring in specific Sideboard hate cards, you consider siding out Sin Prodder (so your opponent doesn't force you to throw away a sideboard card at a key moment).
I've gone back and forth, on/off Spellskite, both in maindeck and sideboard, several times. Here are my two cents:
I finally had the chance to sleeve up and play at my FLGS after a few weeks away. I ended the evening 3-1 (including an opponent who dropped) with the list below:
18 Mountain
2 Gemstone Caverns
2 Mutavault
CREATURES
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Sin Prodder
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Desperate Ritual
1 Pyretic Ritual
4 Magma Jet
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Blood Moon
PLANESWALKERS
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Ricochet Trap
2 Roast
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Slagstorm
2 Grafidgger's Cage
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
I included a pair of Sin Prodder as an experiment, and so far, I'm pleased with them. Even when an opponent makes you discard a land for 0 life, that's one less dead draw. And Magma Jet allows for some fun card-stacking shenanigans. The only card I mind losing away is Chalice of the Void.
I see them as filling a similar role as Crystal Ball (improving your draw), but on a 3/2 Menace body, with some extra pressure on your opponent's life total. I haven't experienced any problems with Ensnaring Bridge for now (since I'm only running a pair of Sin Prodder). Sure, they're a target for removal... but I see that as one less Fatal Push for the Goblin Rabblemaster.
I had actually toyed with the idea when we discussed Mind Stone. Here's a rough draft :
4 Spire of Industry
8 Mountain
2 Gemstone Caverns
4 Darksteel Citadel
1 Inventors' Fair
1 Arid Mesa
CREATURES
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
SPELLS
4 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mind Stone
4 Magma Jet
2 Pia's Revolution
3 Ghirapur Aether Grid
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Blood Moon
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Slagstorm
2 Wildfire
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Sun Droplet
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pyroclasm
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Hope of Ghirapur
2 Wear//Tear
The plan was to run a (near) creature-less deck and nothing with a CMC of 1 (for Chalice). It kept just the bare bones of a Red Prison. Once the game is stalled, start pinging with Ghirapur Aether Grid. Pia's Revolution essentially turns every Mind Stone or extra Mox Opal into Lighting Bolt.
I eventually dropped it because the mana curve felt "clunky", and I couldn't figure out how to solve it without adding 1 CMC artifacts.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/588118#online
Essentially trading out the Rituals for a black splash of hand disruption with Thoughtseize, Collective Brutality (and Fatal Push in the sideboard).
This deck's also packing the 4x Goblin Rabblemaster in the maindeck.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles/this-month-in-legacy-february-legacy-challenge-and-reassessing-threats
Among interesting inclusions, Sin Prodder caught my attention. Is this worth considering? In any matchups where Ensnaring Bridge is wasted (I know my local metagame is full of control and combo decks where it doesn't do all that much), this could provide card advantage or pressure an opponent's life total. Since we have soooo many cards that cost 3-4, this could be interesting, and gets quickly ridiculous in multiple copies.
In a control-heavy meta, would it make sense to maindeck 4x Goblin Rabblemaster and 4x Sin Prodder, and keep Ensnaring Bridge in the sideboard? Essentially, this would be the opposite of the traditional "creatureless deck into creature deck".
Thoughts?