Which decks does SFM benefit most? Two-colored (or mono-colored in the case of D&T), non-red, fair decks. It lines up well against the hyperaggro decks that rule the roost without coming anywhere near to invalidating them. Again, I freely admit to bias here. I play UW control and also have been working on brewing and testing the best shell for Orzhov Stoneblade in Modern, in order to be ready when her (hopefully inevitable) unban takes place.
Anyway, apologies for preaching to the choir; I haven’t seen anyone here suggest that SFM should remain on the ban list. It’s just that the case for her release seems to grow stronger and stronger with each passing day.
I don't think there is any real argument left for SFM to stay on the ban list from a gameplay perspective. IMO the reason Wizards won't release her in the next couple ban/unban dates is that they want to grab some money off of it by printing it in a future set like they did with Jace. So no SFM for 2018 I think, although I would love to brew some Orzhov or Esper list, too!
Awwww yeah, Esper could be sweet. Feel free to hit me up with any ideas!
I hope that you’re wrong, but fear that you’re right, so far as the SFM unban coinciding with a Masters reprint goes. Maybe things would be different if the meta was extremely stagnant and linear, but for now I suppose they might not feel an urgent need to unban her. Still, we can hope!
While I’m very pleased to see fair decks like Mardu Pyro, Jeskai, and Jund putting up strong results, I have an unusual complaint: it seems like it’s hard to play a strong, fair deck these days that isn’t red!
Biased? Absolutely. Red is far and away my least favorite color, and I also recognize that there isn’t necessarily anything inherently good or desirable about achieving parity of color representation in a format. Still, it’s starting to seem like there are fewer and fewer reasons not to play red.
Faithless Looting’s full power is starting to be realized, and IMO it’s starting to form something of an unholy trinity with Lightning Bolt and Blood Moon. In Looting, you have a card that people are calling “Modern’s Brainstorm”, equal parts card selection and combo/advantage enabler. In Moon, you have Modern’s most widely applicable “I win” button, and the opportunity cost of running it has never been lower with card selection so strong in red decks. Finally, there’s Bolt, which quite simply has the immense power of being a top-tier removal spell that’s never dead.
Let me be absolutely clear that none of this is a problem. What’s missing, I would contend, is a compelling reason not to be doing some or all of those things in a control or midrange deck. Enter Stoneforge Mystic.
Which decks does SFM benefit most? Two-colored (or mono-colored in the case of D&T), non-red, fair decks. It lines up well against the hyperaggro decks that rule the roost without coming anywhere near to invalidating them. Again, I freely admit to bias here. I play UW control and also have been working on brewing and testing the best shell for Orzhov Stoneblade in Modern, in order to be ready when her (hopefully inevitable) unban takes place.
Anyway, apologies for preaching to the choir; I haven’t seen anyone here suggest that SFM should remain on the ban list. It’s just that the case for her release seems to grow stronger and stronger with each passing day.
Nice to see Control decks elbowing their way back into results at big tournaments, but the disparity between Jeskai and UW this weekend was pretty grim:
16 Jeskai vs 2 UW made Day 2.
6 Jeskai vs 0 UW made top 32.
And of course 2 of those Jeskai decks made top 8, reaching the semi-finals and the finals, respectively.
The other direction I also like is the Miracle one. I think Miracles is just an absolute powerful mechanic and you can turn the corner so fast. You have to change more things on the deck, but Entreat just wins on the spot most times and Terminus is just so good because you pay 1 mana and can have Countermagic up. I wouldn't play Teferi here, as Jace is much more important here to set up the Miracles, even if he dies. I don't like this version as much as the other one, but it is really powerful - I just would go at least with 3 Entreat as you cannot set it up as well as you can in Legacy. I played 4 Terminus and 4 Entreat and wasn't unhappy about it.
I too have been enjoying the Miracles builds that I’ve tried out recently. Having outs to the degenerate starts from hyper aggressive decks (and the enormous upside of putting things on the bottom of the library against Bogles/Hollow One/Dredge etc) feels great, and seems to give us a compelling reason to be in Azorius colors (much like Spreading Seas and Field of Ruin were that reason for a while after Field’s printing). 4 Entreat seems like a ton—I only ran two in the 75 during my testing—but I won’t pretend to have much of an idea how to build Miracles!
What are peoples’ thoughts on the Miracles archetype? What’s the right split between Serum Visions, Opt, and Telling Time? Is Gideon OTT still a two-of?
I haven’t been able to play much lately, but the couple times I’ve run my list locally (where Burn and hand disruption abound), I’ve run a very similar list with three Leylines main. Leaving aside the landbase, the only difference in the 60 is that I play the fourth Sleight over your Slaughter Pact.
Your conclusions corroborate my experience. Three Leylines main represent a very high power ceiling for a low opportunity cost, given all of our filtering. That said, I still firmly believe their inclusion in the main deck is a meta call and not a given, and when I play on MTGO they’re all in the sideboard.
One thing I would add to the list of negatives is that Leylines make casting an Ad Nauseam for value more painful; just something to keep in mind when deciding whether to fire one off the fair way.
I think your list is pretty much exactly where you want to be if maindeck Leylines are strong in your meta.
I like pack rat because of dark confidant, and because pack rat allows me to go for a more aggroish plan if need be as well as allowing me to bin dead cards. I should add that I play 0 brutality in the main because I'd rather be discarding to pack rat or lotv than brutality.
As for liliana, the last hope, I like her as a value engine against slower decks like lantern, uw control, and other decks where critical mass of cards is important. I also like her as an additional removal spell against decks with smaller creatures like goblins, death and taxes, and humans.
Lastly, Stoneforge mystic is an awesome card, and would be a great card to unban imo, I believe it is one of the most likely things to be unbanned if any. Here's the thing though. Wotc has had a record of being WAYYYYY to cautious in terms of b&r, and after the most recent unbans, I think wizards is probably too scared to add another card to modern that many players seem to think is "busted" or will "break the format" so I doubt they will do it. Although I wouldnt expect to see another unban for a least another year from now anyways, but I guess all we can do is speculate.
Anyways here's my full decklist if you're curious.
I like the look of the deck. Aven Mindcensor obviously has a lot of uses, but seeing two maindeck is rather uncommon. Is that primarily a hedge against Valakut decks?
As for SFM, I agree with you that WoTC has a history of proceeding with extreme caution in terms of unbans. That said, the recent unleashing of JtMS and BBE would actually seem to generate incentive toward more unbans, at least to me. Neither card has come anywhere close to taking over or unbalancing the format. There’s little reason to beilive SFM would warp Modern where Jace didn’t (before the unbans, most pros were saying that BBE and SFM would be fine, while there was more ambivalence about Jace).
Moreover, SFM only slots into “fair” strategies, and nothing that’s currently tier 1; incentivizes interaction on both sides of the table; boosts the most underrepresented color in the format; lines up well against Humans, Hollow One, and other current format kings without rendering them obsolete; and has never even been tried in Modern. These are all things that people already know, I’m sure, but the fact still remains that there’s no compelling reason to leave SFM on the banlist as things stand.
When SFM does come up for discussion in general Modern threads/forums, most people talk about how she will fit into UW or D&T. But I’m making the dark horse prediction that BW (possibly including a microsplash into R, depending on what the meta shares of various decks would look like) could be her best home. So if anyone would like to go deep into the tank on my list above or other iterations of Orzhov Stoneblade, I’m down.
@horatio13, that looks like a fairly good start for a budget build. The optimal version of this deck leans much more heavily on Colonnades than Snapcasters, just in case you planned on acquiring the pricy pieces bit by bit.
Three Sphinx’s Revelation is too many. I would cut down to one, two at the most—but I’d rather see a Secure the Wastes before the second Rev, as your deck sorely lacks cards that will actually win the game. To that end, I would also suggest 2x Gideon of the Trials and 1x Gideon Jura as immediate upgrades that will take your deck to a whole new level. The Gid squad is fantastic at forcing opponents to overextend into sweepers, prolonging the game, and ending it in a hurry once you’ve stabilized.
Another effective budget win condition is Dragonlord Ojutai, which should be paired with Minamo, School at Water’s Edge if you want to commit to the Dragonlord (although spending money on Minamo may not be great if you’re saving toward Colonnades).
Speaking of lands, you need at least two more. 24 is probably sufficient, but 25 is more common.
As for cuts, the UW shell struggles to support more than 1-2 Logic Knots due to how slowly we fill the graveyard. Ojutai’s Command is pretty underpowered as well. Augur of Bolas is a fun card, but gets worse as you include more permanents, which are some of the best cards in UW (compared with the card pools in Grixis or Jeskai, which lean more on Instants and Sorceries).
[quote from="SavageGaul »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/572973-bw-midrange-deadguy-ale?comment=1188"]Cool list man, have you considered pack rat? I feel the card is a lot better than tidehollow sculler.
Also in terms of your sideboard, have you considered mirran crusaders? They make MUs against other Bx midrange decks way better, and are really good with swords. For reference, this is my sb:
Thanks! I have considered Pack Rat, but after reading the last ten or so pages of this thread, I see that most people have been less impressed with it lately than they were in the past. Then again, that seems to be true for Sculler as well. It seems to me that there isn’t enough discard fodder in the deck to allow for Pack Rat and Collective Brutality to coexist in the main, and I’ve always been a huge advocate for Brutality. Still, I’m interested to hear your case for Pack Rat!
A friend has been kind enough to indulge me in a whole lot of testing, and in those games Sculler has been strong. My build is all-in on discard, making Sculler more likely to stick than most shells. He is granted an additional layer of protection by the equipment toolbox—a Sword to keep a Sculler alive and turn him into a dangerous attacker and value engine feels great in a grindy game.
Mirran Crusader has always been one of my favorite cards, and I agree that he’s strong here. He’s in the maybeboard of the above build; I have also been testing a legal version of the deck (-3 Mystic, -1 Batterskull; +1 Steelshaper’s Gift, +2 Smuggler’s Copter, +1 Mirran Crusader) and he’s been solid.
Our sideboards look quite similar (especially considering my omission of Stony due to SFM). The big question I have for you is about Liliana, the Last Hope, which my first draft of the deck ran as a one-of main. I love her in most Bx decks, but here I feel that her -2 isn’t consistently good enough to warrant a place. She’s still fine against weenie decks, but I’ve had better luck with the planeswalkers that produce tokens. What are your experiences with her?
Thanks for the discussion! Orzhov is the coolest color pairing in Modern IMO.
What are everyone’s thoughts on the likelihood of the SFM unban happening in the near future?
Remember that we’re a deck that taps out more often than not. Yes, you can tap out for Teferi and then hold up Leak/Knot/Negate (at least by the time the end step rolls around, which does give them a window to resolve things), but the truth is that CMC 2 counter magic is just pretty bad in Modern overall, especially pre-sideboard.
So unless people are planning to build around Teferi with significantly increased numbers of CMC 2 counterspells (which seems unadvisable in general and even worse for straight UW than other Uxx decks), Teferi’s untap mode looks mediocre at best. Too bad the effect is not immediate; at least then you could drop a Wall of Omens or something.
I’m happy to be proven wrong once people start testing him, but for now I’d say that JtMS, Gideon Jura, and Elspeth, Sun’s Champion are all superior choices.
Those are all excellent points, and I have considered most of them. Jace is almost certainly a better choice in a tapout control-style deck.
I plan to start off testing Teferi with 4 x Mana Leak and 2 x Logic Knot. I figure that I can still hold up Mana Leak/Logic Knot for big, non-instant spells after dropping Teferi, and still be able to add loyalty to gain card advantage, unlike Jace. Mana Leak sucks in the late game, but at that point, if I have Teferi ticking up, that probably won't matter much.
I guess we'll see if he just ends up being a worse Jace or Gideon Jura.
Good luck, man, let us know how it goes! In such a shell you might consider running some amount of Oust, Condemn, or even Seal Away, because you sure don’t want to be Pathing anything early with a playset of Leak in the deck.
I don't think that it makes sense to argue that Teferi is only good if you run a lot of counters. The biggest argument in my opinion, is simply the starting loyalty and the fact that he ticks up to gain card advantage, whereas we need to +0 Jace (exposing him to bolt and other threats). Haste creatures are becoming more and more popular, a lot of them kill Jace instantly. As mentioned previously, Teferi is also another out to annoying permanents like blood moon. Simply bouncing creatures like Jace does is not that great these days.
I wasn’t contending that Teferi is only good with a plethora of 2 CMC counters; rather, that the “untap two lands” clause on his +1 suffers from that limitation. Teferi is indeed flexible and at least decent in most situations, but my fear is that his raw power level isn’t high enough to justify the cost or the slot.
People are comparing him with JtMS, but I believe a more instructive comparison is with Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, who has always been interesting to me (but sees no play in Modern). He’s got one higher starting loyalty than Teferi, and IMO his +1 is definitely a superior source of card advantage. Each planeswalker’s ults are basically GG. Teferi’s -3 is definitely stronger than Unraveler’s -2 Unsummon ability, but that also represents another loyalty disadvantage. All things considered, I think there’s very little between these two choices; and if Unraveler has seen no play before or since the JtMS unban, I cant see Teferi being good enough now that JtMS has been freed.
Gideon Jura is still a windmill slam against the aggro decks that people have rightfully noted as troublesome for JtMS. Jura also represents an automatic win (at least G1) in conjunction with Gideon OTT’s emblem against decks like Ad Nauseam and Lantern.
I also feel like there’s some serious underrating of the Mind Sculptor going on here (perhaps the result of the pendulum swinging back as predictions of him ruling the format with an iron fist failed to materialize). Yeah, he’s bad against go-wide decks and hasty creatures. He’s still an incredible card! If you’re forced into playing him early (and you’re not dead on board), don’t be afraid to start Fatesealing. That +2 gets out of hand really quickly, and gaining 5+ life stapled to some topdeck manipulation ain’t bad in a far from ideal situation.
Finally, at the risk of stating the obvious: JtMS only costs 4, and Teferi costs 5. If JtMS is too slow to effect the game and/or too vulnerable to survive against aggro decks, then surely the same applies to Teferi.
I’m open-minded as it regards the Hero of Dominaria, and as has been mentioned already, I’d love to be proved wrong. But for now I just don’t see it.
Remember that we’re a deck that taps out more often than not. Yes, you can tap out for Teferi and then hold up Leak/Knot/Negate (at least by the time the end step rolls around, which does give them a window to resolve things), but the truth is that CMC 2 counter magic is just pretty bad in Modern overall, especially pre-sideboard.
So unless people are planning to build around Teferi with significantly increased numbers of CMC 2 counterspells (which seems unadvisable in general and even worse for straight UW than other Uxx decks), Teferi’s untap mode looks mediocre at best. Too bad the effect is not immediate; at least then you could drop a Wall of Omens or something.
I’m happy to be proven wrong once people start testing him, but for now I’d say that JtMS, Gideon Jura, and Elspeth, Sun’s Champion are all superior choices.
With Opt being printed and Jace, the Mind Sculptor unbanned, is it now worth considering Terminus? Opting on your opponent's turn is a great way to setup the miracle. Opt isn't all that amazing though, and Terminus is likely still too inconsistent, but I thought I'd ask.
Has anybody tested Porphyry Nodes recently? I've always loved this card, but have yet to find a place to really play it. Is it just too slow? It's certainly worse as a topdeck, but great in your hand early. It buys a lot of time and/or value against aggressive decks. There seems to be a lot of upside, especially since removal that's mana-efficient is at a premium.
Yeah, Opt has proven to be pretty underwhelming in this deck. That said, Terminus is still a viable option in the 75 so long as Bogles continues to menace the format. Settle the Wreckage and Engineered Explosives are probably the best anti-Bogles tech we have, but Terminus (and Blessed Alliance) are good options as well. Terminus also gains points in the Humans matchup as a way to diversify wrath effects with respect to Meddling Mage.
I’ve been playing Porphyry Nodes in my Ad Nauseam sideboard and I’m honestly not sure how to rate the card. It’s a higher variance answer than most, but its performance so far has been good enough to me to persist with it. That said, it’s better in Ad Nauseam than in UWC because 1) buying time leads to a sure win rather than “just” a strong late game, and 2) Ad Nauseam plays no creatures in the main besides those that are part of the combo, whereas Nodes is a nonbo with our Wall of Omens, 1/1 Tokens from things like Elspeth and Secure the Wastes, and even Snapcasters at times.
With this in mind I’d have to say that I doubt Nodes makes the cut for this deck, but I haven’t tested it here. It’s a fun card, so if you decide to give it a shot anyway let us know how it goes. Otherwise, Condemn (if your highest priority is having a 5th Path effect for big aggressive beaters) or Oust (if you want a clean answer to mana dorks and Dark Confidants) are probably your best bets. Seal Away may be worth testing as well.
Speaking of Secure the Wastes—is anyone else still playing this card? It seems like something that makes sense to cut whenever I make tweaks to the list, but it’s always performed well for me in the past.
I'm feeling Laboratory Maniac is a wasted slot most of the times, I'm tempted to go back to Conflagrate (there's not infinite lifegain around and it's not prevalent much anyways).
While there isn't really an infinite lifegain deck any more, Bogles is a lot more popular and the mainstream lists are all running maindeck Leyline.
I was about to say the same. I’m also seeing other decks bring in Leylines or things like Pithing Needle making Lightning Storm. While those pieces of technology can be a piece of the puzzle in terms of stopping us, in practice it’s more common—in my limited experience—for them to be wasted slots as we just kill them through the Maniac.
Bonus points for the Lab Man kill being easier (and quicker, if the clock matters) to execute on MTGO.
Ever since playing Stoneforge Mystic in some casual games, I’ve been chomping at the bit waiting for her (hopefully inevitable!) unban. I’m also feeling a strong desire to play an interactive, discard-heavy Bx midrange deck to go along with my other main decks (UW Control and Ad Nauseam). With those incentives in place, BW Midrange seems like the perfect fit. To that end, I’ve been working on a list in order to stay ahead of the meta (and the price spikes lol) if and when SFM is unleashed.
I hope it isn’t too off-topic to post the list here and ask for critiques. It’s been performing very well in testing, but then again it’s utilizing a card that’s still on the banned list! Beyond these recent games, I have no experience playing BW/Deadguy, so any pointers will be well received. Thanks.
Nope, because Sphere doesn’t effect Utopia Sprawl, sadly for us. As to Sphere in general, I think it’s a playable but borderline unnecessary inclusion...unless, to circle back to the previous discussion, we do end up moving away from Seas, in which case Tron starts looking scary again.
@jayjay, you’re certainly right that the meta is better prepared for Field these days. Still, Settle the Wreckage is a very well-positioned card right now, and between that and Path we’ve still got the ability to run them out of resources.
It’s starting to seem like the Spreading Seas question will shape the future of the deck moving forward. Keep the discussion and reporting coming, dudes.
A little while back—just before the Mind Sculptor and BBE unbans, if memory serves—Pierre Dagen (who was running UWC at the pro tour) said that Field of Ruin shared the title of best card in Modern alongside Thoughtseize. I don’t feel qualified to make such an assessment, but I certainly share Dagen’s positivity about the card. Land destruction that doesn’t set us back on actual land drops (while gaining us a few percentage points against Blood Moon) is an absolute dream come true for this deck.
That said, Ghost Quarter is still good for us, especially if you have Crucible in your 75 and/or face Inkmoth Nexus decks with high frequency. Most people would agree that our deck can support up to five colorless lands, if you want to give a 4/1 Field/GQ split or something similar a shot.
GP Hartford was quite a poor showing for Control in general and UW in particular. Still, I’m not prepared to say that the sky is falling just yet. The meta is still far from settled, and so long as that’s the case, linear decks will shoulder control decks out of some percentage of their former meta share. The best thing we can do for now IMO is stick to a proactive game plan, which means Spreading Seas and Field of Ruin are your friends (maybe even GQ and Crucible as well!).
Went 3-1 at my first local Modern event using this deck. I ran a full 8 Temples, and 3 Leylines main (cutting a Spoils altogether while moving my 3rd Pact and 4th Unlife to the side). These decisions were meta calls anticipating a lot of hand disruption and not much counter magic, and this prediction proved to be accurate.
Round 1 vs Eldrazi Tron:
I opened on Leyline, which was nice, but he opened on Eldrazi Temple into Eldrazi Temple + Chalice on 1 into Ghost Quarter + Reality Smasher, which was much nicer. I had two cantrips and a Grace stranded in hand, and all of my post-Chalice draws were one-drops or lands. G2 I kept a no-Leyline hand of three lands, Sleight, Prism, Unlife, and Ad Nauseam. Unfortunately, his curve once again began with a Chalice on 1, and this time he followed it up with double Thought-Knots. Once more I drew into things I couldn’t play. Not the best start! In both games I fired off an Ad Nauseam for value (G1 once it became clear that I didn’t have a better play, G2 in response to a Thought-Knot), but in both cases I failed to find my outs.
Round 2 vs GW Hatebears: G1 he opened with Dryad Militant into Scooze, aka vanilla beaters for all intents and purposes against us. My T0 Leyline was more or less worthless, but T1 Bloom enabled my T4 kill. G2 he opened with Hierarch into Thalia, Hereric Cathar into more beaters + Gaddock Teeg. Slaughter Pact took care of Teeg on his T4 end step, and with a Bloom coming off Suspend on my T4, I won with Pact’s trigger on the stack.
Round 3 vs Eldrazi Tron: Winning the die roll was nice here; it let me deploy my Prism and Unlife before his T3 Thought-Knot hit the field, which saw my hand of land, Spoils, and Ad Nauseam x2. I won on the following turn. G2 my opponent had the good old Chalice for 1 on his T2, but I had already resolved my lone cantrip. Both of us had clunky progressions, with him playing a pair of small Ballistas while I laid out three Pentad Prisms, stuck on two lands with Unlife and Ad Nauseam in hand. He finally hit enough lands for his big threat, an Endbringer, but it was too slow.
Round 4 vs Burn: My opening hand was absolutely insane for the matchup—Leyline, Unlife, Sleight, Serum, a fastland and two Scrylands—and I won the die roll. Can’t lose, right? Well, I almost did, lol. He went Goblin Guide into double Swiftspear into another Guide, Bolting himself for Prowess triggers and finding Boros Charms to give his dudes double strike, while I dug and dug and dug for an Ad Nauseam to no avail. His final attack put me down to 8 points of Infect, and I had one do-or-die draw step. Topdecked a Spoils, cast it naming Ad Nauseam, and our namesake card was right on top. Cast it and won. G2 I kept a strong hand but one that lacked a Leyline, and it got me over the line. He put me down to three by the end of his T4, I untapped and won.
3-1 in matches and 6-2 in games on the official paper debut, with my only loss coming to a pair of decidedly nutty progressions from the first Eldrazi player. I’m happy with that!
Awwww yeah, Esper could be sweet. Feel free to hit me up with any ideas!
I hope that you’re wrong, but fear that you’re right, so far as the SFM unban coinciding with a Masters reprint goes. Maybe things would be different if the meta was extremely stagnant and linear, but for now I suppose they might not feel an urgent need to unban her. Still, we can hope!
Biased? Absolutely. Red is far and away my least favorite color, and I also recognize that there isn’t necessarily anything inherently good or desirable about achieving parity of color representation in a format. Still, it’s starting to seem like there are fewer and fewer reasons not to play red.
Faithless Looting’s full power is starting to be realized, and IMO it’s starting to form something of an unholy trinity with Lightning Bolt and Blood Moon. In Looting, you have a card that people are calling “Modern’s Brainstorm”, equal parts card selection and combo/advantage enabler. In Moon, you have Modern’s most widely applicable “I win” button, and the opportunity cost of running it has never been lower with card selection so strong in red decks. Finally, there’s Bolt, which quite simply has the immense power of being a top-tier removal spell that’s never dead.
Let me be absolutely clear that none of this is a problem. What’s missing, I would contend, is a compelling reason not to be doing some or all of those things in a control or midrange deck. Enter Stoneforge Mystic.
Which decks does SFM benefit most? Two-colored (or mono-colored in the case of D&T), non-red, fair decks. It lines up well against the hyperaggro decks that rule the roost without coming anywhere near to invalidating them. Again, I freely admit to bias here. I play UW control and also have been working on brewing and testing the best shell for Orzhov Stoneblade in Modern, in order to be ready when her (hopefully inevitable) unban takes place.
Anyway, apologies for preaching to the choir; I haven’t seen anyone here suggest that SFM should remain on the ban list. It’s just that the case for her release seems to grow stronger and stronger with each passing day.
16 Jeskai vs 2 UW made Day 2.
6 Jeskai vs 0 UW made top 32.
And of course 2 of those Jeskai decks made top 8, reaching the semi-finals and the finals, respectively.
I too have been enjoying the Miracles builds that I’ve tried out recently. Having outs to the degenerate starts from hyper aggressive decks (and the enormous upside of putting things on the bottom of the library against Bogles/Hollow One/Dredge etc) feels great, and seems to give us a compelling reason to be in Azorius colors (much like Spreading Seas and Field of Ruin were that reason for a while after Field’s printing). 4 Entreat seems like a ton—I only ran two in the 75 during my testing—but I won’t pretend to have much of an idea how to build Miracles!
What are peoples’ thoughts on the Miracles archetype? What’s the right split between Serum Visions, Opt, and Telling Time? Is Gideon OTT still a two-of?
Your conclusions corroborate my experience. Three Leylines main represent a very high power ceiling for a low opportunity cost, given all of our filtering. That said, I still firmly believe their inclusion in the main deck is a meta call and not a given, and when I play on MTGO they’re all in the sideboard.
One thing I would add to the list of negatives is that Leylines make casting an Ad Nauseam for value more painful; just something to keep in mind when deciding whether to fire one off the fair way.
I think your list is pretty much exactly where you want to be if maindeck Leylines are strong in your meta.
I like the look of the deck. Aven Mindcensor obviously has a lot of uses, but seeing two maindeck is rather uncommon. Is that primarily a hedge against Valakut decks?
As for SFM, I agree with you that WoTC has a history of proceeding with extreme caution in terms of unbans. That said, the recent unleashing of JtMS and BBE would actually seem to generate incentive toward more unbans, at least to me. Neither card has come anywhere close to taking over or unbalancing the format. There’s little reason to beilive SFM would warp Modern where Jace didn’t (before the unbans, most pros were saying that BBE and SFM would be fine, while there was more ambivalence about Jace).
Moreover, SFM only slots into “fair” strategies, and nothing that’s currently tier 1; incentivizes interaction on both sides of the table; boosts the most underrepresented color in the format; lines up well against Humans, Hollow One, and other current format kings without rendering them obsolete; and has never even been tried in Modern. These are all things that people already know, I’m sure, but the fact still remains that there’s no compelling reason to leave SFM on the banlist as things stand.
When SFM does come up for discussion in general Modern threads/forums, most people talk about how she will fit into UW or D&T. But I’m making the dark horse prediction that BW (possibly including a microsplash into R, depending on what the meta shares of various decks would look like) could be her best home. So if anyone would like to go deep into the tank on my list above or other iterations of Orzhov Stoneblade, I’m down.
Three Sphinx’s Revelation is too many. I would cut down to one, two at the most—but I’d rather see a Secure the Wastes before the second Rev, as your deck sorely lacks cards that will actually win the game. To that end, I would also suggest 2x Gideon of the Trials and 1x Gideon Jura as immediate upgrades that will take your deck to a whole new level. The Gid squad is fantastic at forcing opponents to overextend into sweepers, prolonging the game, and ending it in a hurry once you’ve stabilized.
Another effective budget win condition is Dragonlord Ojutai, which should be paired with Minamo, School at Water’s Edge if you want to commit to the Dragonlord (although spending money on Minamo may not be great if you’re saving toward Colonnades).
Speaking of lands, you need at least two more. 24 is probably sufficient, but 25 is more common.
As for cuts, the UW shell struggles to support more than 1-2 Logic Knots due to how slowly we fill the graveyard. Ojutai’s Command is pretty underpowered as well. Augur of Bolas is a fun card, but gets worse as you include more permanents, which are some of the best cards in UW (compared with the card pools in Grixis or Jeskai, which lean more on Instants and Sorceries).
Good luck to you, and let us know how it goes!
Thanks! I have considered Pack Rat, but after reading the last ten or so pages of this thread, I see that most people have been less impressed with it lately than they were in the past. Then again, that seems to be true for Sculler as well. It seems to me that there isn’t enough discard fodder in the deck to allow for Pack Rat and Collective Brutality to coexist in the main, and I’ve always been a huge advocate for Brutality. Still, I’m interested to hear your case for Pack Rat!
A friend has been kind enough to indulge me in a whole lot of testing, and in those games Sculler has been strong. My build is all-in on discard, making Sculler more likely to stick than most shells. He is granted an additional layer of protection by the equipment toolbox—a Sword to keep a Sculler alive and turn him into a dangerous attacker and value engine feels great in a grindy game.
Mirran Crusader has always been one of my favorite cards, and I agree that he’s strong here. He’s in the maybeboard of the above build; I have also been testing a legal version of the deck (-3 Mystic, -1 Batterskull; +1 Steelshaper’s Gift, +2 Smuggler’s Copter, +1 Mirran Crusader) and he’s been solid.
Our sideboards look quite similar (especially considering my omission of Stony due to SFM). The big question I have for you is about Liliana, the Last Hope, which my first draft of the deck ran as a one-of main. I love her in most Bx decks, but here I feel that her -2 isn’t consistently good enough to warrant a place. She’s still fine against weenie decks, but I’ve had better luck with the planeswalkers that produce tokens. What are your experiences with her?
Thanks for the discussion! Orzhov is the coolest color pairing in Modern IMO.
What are everyone’s thoughts on the likelihood of the SFM unban happening in the near future?
Good luck, man, let us know how it goes! In such a shell you might consider running some amount of Oust, Condemn, or even Seal Away, because you sure don’t want to be Pathing anything early with a playset of Leak in the deck.
I wasn’t contending that Teferi is only good with a plethora of 2 CMC counters; rather, that the “untap two lands” clause on his +1 suffers from that limitation. Teferi is indeed flexible and at least decent in most situations, but my fear is that his raw power level isn’t high enough to justify the cost or the slot.
People are comparing him with JtMS, but I believe a more instructive comparison is with Jace, Unraveler of Secrets, who has always been interesting to me (but sees no play in Modern). He’s got one higher starting loyalty than Teferi, and IMO his +1 is definitely a superior source of card advantage. Each planeswalker’s ults are basically GG. Teferi’s -3 is definitely stronger than Unraveler’s -2 Unsummon ability, but that also represents another loyalty disadvantage. All things considered, I think there’s very little between these two choices; and if Unraveler has seen no play before or since the JtMS unban, I cant see Teferi being good enough now that JtMS has been freed.
Gideon Jura is still a windmill slam against the aggro decks that people have rightfully noted as troublesome for JtMS. Jura also represents an automatic win (at least G1) in conjunction with Gideon OTT’s emblem against decks like Ad Nauseam and Lantern.
I also feel like there’s some serious underrating of the Mind Sculptor going on here (perhaps the result of the pendulum swinging back as predictions of him ruling the format with an iron fist failed to materialize). Yeah, he’s bad against go-wide decks and hasty creatures. He’s still an incredible card! If you’re forced into playing him early (and you’re not dead on board), don’t be afraid to start Fatesealing. That +2 gets out of hand really quickly, and gaining 5+ life stapled to some topdeck manipulation ain’t bad in a far from ideal situation.
Finally, at the risk of stating the obvious: JtMS only costs 4, and Teferi costs 5. If JtMS is too slow to effect the game and/or too vulnerable to survive against aggro decks, then surely the same applies to Teferi.
I’m open-minded as it regards the Hero of Dominaria, and as has been mentioned already, I’d love to be proved wrong. But for now I just don’t see it.
Remember that we’re a deck that taps out more often than not. Yes, you can tap out for Teferi and then hold up Leak/Knot/Negate (at least by the time the end step rolls around, which does give them a window to resolve things), but the truth is that CMC 2 counter magic is just pretty bad in Modern overall, especially pre-sideboard.
So unless people are planning to build around Teferi with significantly increased numbers of CMC 2 counterspells (which seems unadvisable in general and even worse for straight UW than other Uxx decks), Teferi’s untap mode looks mediocre at best. Too bad the effect is not immediate; at least then you could drop a Wall of Omens or something.
I’m happy to be proven wrong once people start testing him, but for now I’d say that JtMS, Gideon Jura, and Elspeth, Sun’s Champion are all superior choices.
Yeah, Opt has proven to be pretty underwhelming in this deck. That said, Terminus is still a viable option in the 75 so long as Bogles continues to menace the format. Settle the Wreckage and Engineered Explosives are probably the best anti-Bogles tech we have, but Terminus (and Blessed Alliance) are good options as well. Terminus also gains points in the Humans matchup as a way to diversify wrath effects with respect to Meddling Mage.
I’ve been playing Porphyry Nodes in my Ad Nauseam sideboard and I’m honestly not sure how to rate the card. It’s a higher variance answer than most, but its performance so far has been good enough to me to persist with it. That said, it’s better in Ad Nauseam than in UWC because 1) buying time leads to a sure win rather than “just” a strong late game, and 2) Ad Nauseam plays no creatures in the main besides those that are part of the combo, whereas Nodes is a nonbo with our Wall of Omens, 1/1 Tokens from things like Elspeth and Secure the Wastes, and even Snapcasters at times.
With this in mind I’d have to say that I doubt Nodes makes the cut for this deck, but I haven’t tested it here. It’s a fun card, so if you decide to give it a shot anyway let us know how it goes. Otherwise, Condemn (if your highest priority is having a 5th Path effect for big aggressive beaters) or Oust (if you want a clean answer to mana dorks and Dark Confidants) are probably your best bets. Seal Away may be worth testing as well.
Speaking of Secure the Wastes—is anyone else still playing this card? It seems like something that makes sense to cut whenever I make tweaks to the list, but it’s always performed well for me in the past.
I was about to say the same. I’m also seeing other decks bring in Leylines or things like Pithing Needle making Lightning Storm. While those pieces of technology can be a piece of the puzzle in terms of stopping us, in practice it’s more common—in my limited experience—for them to be wasted slots as we just kill them through the Maniac.
Bonus points for the Lab Man kill being easier (and quicker, if the clock matters) to execute on MTGO.
Ever since playing Stoneforge Mystic in some casual games, I’ve been chomping at the bit waiting for her (hopefully inevitable!) unban. I’m also feeling a strong desire to play an interactive, discard-heavy Bx midrange deck to go along with my other main decks (UW Control and Ad Nauseam). With those incentives in place, BW Midrange seems like the perfect fit. To that end, I’ve been working on a list in order to stay ahead of the meta (and the price spikes lol) if and when SFM is unleashed.
I hope it isn’t too off-topic to post the list here and ask for critiques. It’s been performing very well in testing, but then again it’s utilizing a card that’s still on the banned list! Beyond these recent games, I have no experience playing BW/Deadguy, so any pointers will be well received. Thanks.
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Swamps
2 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
3 Field of Ruin
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
3 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
3 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
The sideboard is less fixed, but right now it’d be something like this:
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Path to Exile
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Runed Halo
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Disenchant
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Damping Sphere
Nope, because Sphere doesn’t effect Utopia Sprawl, sadly for us. As to Sphere in general, I think it’s a playable but borderline unnecessary inclusion...unless, to circle back to the previous discussion, we do end up moving away from Seas, in which case Tron starts looking scary again.
@jayjay, you’re certainly right that the meta is better prepared for Field these days. Still, Settle the Wreckage is a very well-positioned card right now, and between that and Path we’ve still got the ability to run them out of resources.
It’s starting to seem like the Spreading Seas question will shape the future of the deck moving forward. Keep the discussion and reporting coming, dudes.
That said, Ghost Quarter is still good for us, especially if you have Crucible in your 75 and/or face Inkmoth Nexus decks with high frequency. Most people would agree that our deck can support up to five colorless lands, if you want to give a 4/1 Field/GQ split or something similar a shot.
GP Hartford was quite a poor showing for Control in general and UW in particular. Still, I’m not prepared to say that the sky is falling just yet. The meta is still far from settled, and so long as that’s the case, linear decks will shoulder control decks out of some percentage of their former meta share. The best thing we can do for now IMO is stick to a proactive game plan, which means Spreading Seas and Field of Ruin are your friends (maybe even GQ and Crucible as well!).
Round 1 vs Eldrazi Tron:
I opened on Leyline, which was nice, but he opened on Eldrazi Temple into Eldrazi Temple + Chalice on 1 into Ghost Quarter + Reality Smasher, which was much nicer. I had two cantrips and a Grace stranded in hand, and all of my post-Chalice draws were one-drops or lands. G2 I kept a no-Leyline hand of three lands, Sleight, Prism, Unlife, and Ad Nauseam. Unfortunately, his curve once again began with a Chalice on 1, and this time he followed it up with double Thought-Knots. Once more I drew into things I couldn’t play. Not the best start! In both games I fired off an Ad Nauseam for value (G1 once it became clear that I didn’t have a better play, G2 in response to a Thought-Knot), but in both cases I failed to find my outs.
Round 2 vs GW Hatebears: G1 he opened with Dryad Militant into Scooze, aka vanilla beaters for all intents and purposes against us. My T0 Leyline was more or less worthless, but T1 Bloom enabled my T4 kill. G2 he opened with Hierarch into Thalia, Hereric Cathar into more beaters + Gaddock Teeg. Slaughter Pact took care of Teeg on his T4 end step, and with a Bloom coming off Suspend on my T4, I won with Pact’s trigger on the stack.
Round 3 vs Eldrazi Tron: Winning the die roll was nice here; it let me deploy my Prism and Unlife before his T3 Thought-Knot hit the field, which saw my hand of land, Spoils, and Ad Nauseam x2. I won on the following turn. G2 my opponent had the good old Chalice for 1 on his T2, but I had already resolved my lone cantrip. Both of us had clunky progressions, with him playing a pair of small Ballistas while I laid out three Pentad Prisms, stuck on two lands with Unlife and Ad Nauseam in hand. He finally hit enough lands for his big threat, an Endbringer, but it was too slow.
Round 4 vs Burn: My opening hand was absolutely insane for the matchup—Leyline, Unlife, Sleight, Serum, a fastland and two Scrylands—and I won the die roll. Can’t lose, right? Well, I almost did, lol. He went Goblin Guide into double Swiftspear into another Guide, Bolting himself for Prowess triggers and finding Boros Charms to give his dudes double strike, while I dug and dug and dug for an Ad Nauseam to no avail. His final attack put me down to 8 points of Infect, and I had one do-or-die draw step. Topdecked a Spoils, cast it naming Ad Nauseam, and our namesake card was right on top. Cast it and won. G2 I kept a strong hand but one that lacked a Leyline, and it got me over the line. He put me down to three by the end of his T4, I untapped and won.
3-1 in matches and 6-2 in games on the official paper debut, with my only loss coming to a pair of decidedly nutty progressions from the first Eldrazi player. I’m happy with that!