Hey everyone! With the recent bans in mind, I've started brewing and tinkering. I had been working on an R/W Vehicles deck, but now that that's thoroughly dead I was looking into another deck: Mono Black. Liliana, the Last Hope and Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet are most likely the two best cards in the format bar Gideon. This information lead me to thinking "what can I do with these cards?" Of course the G/B Delirium route has been explored, but I was wondering if there was another path to take (plus the loss of Emrakul is a big blow to that deck).
This deck wins by out-valuing the opponent. We will be using creatures and planeswalkers that are strong on the board as well as the most efficient removal available. This deck aims to take control midgame and close before control decks can stabilize. With that in mind, here is the core I propose:
Like I already said, Liliana and Kalitas are two of the strongest cards in the format so their inclusion doesn't warrant any explanation. Grasp of Darkness is probably the best removal in black right now, with Ruinous Path coming in second not only for removing Planeswalkers but also for the added Awaken. Ob Nixilis Reignited may get me some odd looks, but I honestly think it's a pretty strong card that is likely our best shot for a 5 drop, providing card advantage and removal with little drawback. Lastly, Noxious Gearhulk tops our curve and allows us to keep the board clean, regain some life, and get in some psuedo-unblockable damage.
Right now, I don't feel like there is a very good proactive 2 drop for this deck. Relentless Dead is okay, getting in a bit of damage via menace, recurring itself and possibly other copies of it, but it's the weakest link in the core. You'll probably never use its second ability unless we put in more zombies, and at that point it's probably better just to go all-in on a zombie deck. When AER drops, two nice 2 drops in Gifted Aetherborn and Glint-Sleeve Siphoner will give us some other options to play with.
From here, I'm not really sure where to go! The deck probably needs another method to draw cards, as well as some more creatures that I can play in case I miss one of my core drops on curve. I'd love to go white for stuff like Kambal, Chief of Allocation, Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Anguished Unmaking, but with literally every one of our core cards having double black I don't think splashing is a very viable option. MAYBE Sorin since you wouldn't need white until turn six.
Does anyone have any ideas for filling out the rest of this deck? Other goodstuff I missed, suggestions for creatures or curve-fillers, ideas on how to add focus to the deck? Any input would be appreciated!
I wouldn't run 4 Blossoming Defense mainboard in either versions. In the aggro version, access to 4 Incendiary Flow is going to be much better than Blossoming defense as you can remove whatever early creature they have on your turn 3 so the cub connects. A Blossoming defense might keep the cub alive, but it won't get you the energy from dealing damage to a player. Also, I've found I lose a lot of games with my opponent at 6 to 1 life. Having extra burn can really help when playing an aggro deck. (Collective Defiance can be a good sideboard card for extra creature removal and burn.) Consider that Incendiary Flow could help take out a turn 3 Liliana, which looks like it would be pretty crippling to your deck.
I would run 2, maybe 3 Blossoming Defense mainboard. Definitely up Incendiary Flow to 4 copies mb in the aggro version, unless you split that slot with 1 or 2 Collective Defiance mb.
4 Hellion's have been working out quite well for me. If you can drop 2 Hellion's in the early/mid game it's usually a winning move. There is a lot of good removal out there, but haste helps fight this if anything. You just have to play smart and wait until they are tapped out or have played a bunch of instant speed removal already to help assure it connects.
Fleetwheel Cruiser is a card that could be good in either deck, at least in the sideboard. Lots of haste damage backed up by burn can allow to to possibly go under Fumigate and decks that rely on more sorcery speed removal.
Hi there Jai,
Thanks for the reply! I based the core of my deck off of similar lists I saw on mtgtop8.com where R/G placed in the top 8 of events. A lot of them seemed to run 4x Blossoming Defense. I was hesitant about Incendiary Flow because it's sorcery speed and seems to get a lot of flak from people in this thread because of it. However, I definitely agree with your assessment and will probably test with 4x Flow and a smaller amount of Blossoming Defense instead. Do you think Larger than Life has a place somewhere in the MB? It was something I was unsure of with the aggro variant. I'm also unsure on Collective Defiance, it's a lot of mana that we'd need to spend being reactive. I'll test it out just in case because I do love the versatility it offers. Fleetwheel Cruiser seems okay, but it feels like an SB card to me.
You may think this might be a bit strange, but it's actually very doable. Fevered Visions, as you probably can tell, is an amazing sideboard card against control matchups. If you put 4 and an Island or 2, you can just splash for blue with Attune with Aether and Aether Hub. People also splash blue for counters like Negate, Dispel and Ceremonious Rejection.
That's all I can really say about sideboarding. Good luck!
Hey there FIRE,
Thank you for the tips, they're greatly appreciated! I'm still focusing on mainboard for the moment, but when I start building my sideboard I will absolutely keep those cards in mind.
I'm getting back into Standard after not playing since the first Innistrad. Following a post in the "What Should I Play" thread, I've decided to build an R/G Energy deck to acclimate to Standard again. I have a couple thoughts after reading through the bulk of this thread:
I think that any deck that is aggressive should probably be capitalizing on Smuggler's Copter, and most Red decks be capitalizing on Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Having no experience in this meta those assumptions could just be total bogus, but that's my impression as of right now. Copter speaks for itself. Everyone knows how valuable that card is (even me, and I haven't even played with it yet). Chandra on the other hand is probably more debatable, but she just feels so strong. Ideally, I think a deck that could consistently drop her T3 or T4 and make use of her +RR ability would shine in building an oppressive board state. Sadly, we don't have a lot of use for RR to drop a creature, but I think she's strong in our lists nonetheless.
From what I can see, there's R/G Electrostatic Pummeler combo, R/G Aggro, and R/G Midrange. I'm not really much of a combo player, so I'm not considering the first list much. The question then is how aggressive should we slant our midrange deck. In keeping with my notes above, the more aggressive the deck, the more likely it can benefit from Copter. However, the more midrange-y variants can likely slot in Chandra much easier.
So, I'm going to build up two lists below, one more aggressive and one more midgame-oriented. I'm going to be making some assumptions that are probably wrong because this environment is completely new to me. If you all would drop your input, tell me where I'm going wrong, and maybe even suggest the better of the two decklists, I would be really grateful! Also small note before we get started: for now, I'm just going to be playing straight R/G. Blue and White and whatnot are cool, but my gut tells me to stick to two colors for now to maximize efficiency. All of you have been playing the deck much more than I, so I'm sure I will come to similar conclusions as you about a third color, but for now I'm keeping it simple.
This deck is fast and low to the ground, with only six cards that are over 3CMC. I've seen people go back and forth on Kessig Prowler, and I'm not sure if I'd rather have that or Bomat Courier, but I think a one drop creature is necessary to maximize Smuggler's Copter and keep the board pressure on. Since we aren't playing any five cost cards, Prowler's ability becomes better as a mid-late mana sink. Bomat would also be fine for refilling our hand. Pia Nalaar is certainly a consideration over Lathnu Hellion here as well to interact even better with Copter, but I think Lathnu is better at pressuring the board in most lines.
The main line we want to see is something like Prolwer -> Cub/Brawler -> Lathnu -> Chandra + Copter/Flow/Lightning. Copter can also come down on two, or we can Attune into Cub, or we can use T3 to drop a 2CMC creature along with Attune, Blossoming Defense or a Prowler. The lines feel versatile and reasonably strong. Whiffing the fist couple turns probably means we lose, but them's the breaks with aggro decks. We're relying on Brawler's Trample, Hellion killing blockers, removal and Chandra to push damage through.
The most obvious question to me is, if we're going full aggro, is B/R or R/W Vehicles just better? I have no idea. Let me know if you think this list has any chance of standing on its own.
This version uses ramp and value creatures to get on the board faster than the opponent and outvalue them. As with most of the midrange variants running around, one drop creatures are absent. The best T1 play is Attune to Aether, but in case you don't have that, you can always just drop a Game Trail tapped and not lose much tempo. The deck is still capable of winning early with a good Cub line, and Larger than Life supplements that plan by sneaking in damage through chump blockers. Tireless Tracker comes in here as a way to keep playing into the late game, while Bristling Hydra, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Verdurous Gearhulk act as our big beaters/finishers.
Best lines include Attune -> Cub -> Tracker -> Chandra + Removal -> Gearhulk, as well as Servant -> Hydra -> Gearhulk. This one overall feels a little clunkier but has access to much more staying power in the midgame. As seen in all of these lists, the 3 cost spot is weird and makes our lines sometimes not feel great. This list is unable to benefit much from Smuggler's Copter, because all the early creatures have things they'd rather do than crew a Vehicle.
Final Note: Having zero experience with the meta, I don't have any sideboards worked out yet. After getting some feedback and settling on a list, I'll start crafting an SB.
OKAY! Sorry to spam the thread with such a huge post! I hope I'm able to spark some worthwhile discussion and I don't end up just needlessly cluttering the thread Thank you for reading, I'm really looking forward to your responses!
Fact: the last standard showdown I took part in was fairly competitive, Jeskai control came in second and could have easily won.
Fact: I have a friend who took Grixis Control to win 3 of 4 Game Days.
Fact: I have never played control well and am currently too enamored of "landfall: draw a card" to seriously try.
Conclusion: You can win locally with either, In 6 weeks it will change. The pilot and the specific deck configuration are more important than the manabase.
That's a good insight. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I'll make sure to do some experimenting with control as I can. I guess I should stop stressing so much about FNM level events
UW Flash is technically not an aggro deck and is more of a tempo-midrange. There's also technically 28 creatures if you count Smuggler's Copter and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
Being back into the game I would go with GR Energy. It consist of mostly bulk rares and common/uncommons and should cost you a bit over $100. It's proactive and one of the easier decks to handle, since in my opinion most standard decks right now are NOT newbie friendly.
I'd try the G/R energy (pummeler version) deck. Is easy to use, cheap and can make u win in turn 4 with a few cards. If you get tired of the deck u can upgrade it into G/R Aggro or Temur energy so is a great choice imho.
Thanks for the replies, guys! I'll give G/R Energy a look. I've traditionally been a control player, played some aggro back when delver was at its prime in standard, but it seems like control in particular is in kind of a weird spot right now. I wouldn't say I'm a newbie per say, I played for years, but for some reason the current meta just feels really different to me.
If you know that you like control, that's fine. If you want to win a Grand Prix maybe you need to worry about your deck choice. For FNM, play what you want. With decent draws, a skilled player can take down an FNM with a number of decks. Last Saturday, I did a 16 person Showdown with GB Delirium. The event was taken down by RG Pummeler and Jeskai Control came in second, but with different pairings, that outcome could have been reversed. Here is Seth Mansfield piloting Jeskai Control in a video. Yeah sure, having your best control card be a midrangy creature is weird, but Standard is supposed to constantly change.
Totally! I agree with pretty much everything you said. I definitely plan on switching over to control at some point, but for now I'm just looking to find my feet and see if this environment is enjoyable for me. That's why I'm looking for a deck on the cheaper side, so if I end up not enjoying myself, I won't have spent much money. Would you recommend Jeskai control as the best control deck at the moment?
UW Flash is technically not an aggro deck and is more of a tempo-midrange. There's also technically 28 creatures if you count Smuggler's Copter and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
Being back into the game I would go with GR Energy. It consist of mostly bulk rares and common/uncommons and should cost you a bit over $100. It's proactive and one of the easier decks to handle, since in my opinion most standard decks right now are NOT newbie friendly.
I'd try the G/R energy (pummeler version) deck. Is easy to use, cheap and can make u win in turn 4 with a few cards. If you get tired of the deck u can upgrade it into G/R Aggro or Temur energy so is a great choice imho.
Thanks for the replies, guys! I'll give G/R Energy a look. I've traditionally been a control player, played some aggro back when delver was at its prime in standard, but it seems like control in particular is in kind of a weird spot right now. I wouldn't say I'm a newbie per say, I played for years, but for some reason the current meta just feels really different to me.
I haven't played Magic for a couple of years outside of the occasional draft or casual game. The last set I played seriously was the first Innistrad block. I'm looking into getting back into the game, but I'm having kind of a hard time navigating standard at the moment! I'm not really familiar with any of the new sets (though I did follow them to an extent as they were coming out) and the top 8 decks that I've found are really confusing... like the u/w aggro deck that only runs 4x one drop creatures and 4x two drop creatures, and only 20 creatures total... what??
I'd like to start attending FNM at my local game store, which I believe rotates between doing standard and draft every other week. For drafting I'll be fine of course, but I'm kind of lost with what I should work toward with standard. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good deck for someone coming back into the standard scene after a long absence? At the moment I'm looking for a budget deck if possible, since I'm not sure how long I'll stick with it, but I do have a good amount of old money cards that I could trade for newer stuff.
In addition to deck recommendations, any general advice or observations about the standard climate would be very much appreciated. Thank you!!
Good question. Well written. Good discussion. There's a thread for that. Thanks! - hoser2
This deck wins by out-valuing the opponent. We will be using creatures and planeswalkers that are strong on the board as well as the most efficient removal available. This deck aims to take control midgame and close before control decks can stabilize. With that in mind, here is the core I propose:
Like I already said, Liliana and Kalitas are two of the strongest cards in the format so their inclusion doesn't warrant any explanation. Grasp of Darkness is probably the best removal in black right now, with Ruinous Path coming in second not only for removing Planeswalkers but also for the added Awaken. Ob Nixilis Reignited may get me some odd looks, but I honestly think it's a pretty strong card that is likely our best shot for a 5 drop, providing card advantage and removal with little drawback. Lastly, Noxious Gearhulk tops our curve and allows us to keep the board clean, regain some life, and get in some psuedo-unblockable damage.
Right now, I don't feel like there is a very good proactive 2 drop for this deck. Relentless Dead is okay, getting in a bit of damage via menace, recurring itself and possibly other copies of it, but it's the weakest link in the core. You'll probably never use its second ability unless we put in more zombies, and at that point it's probably better just to go all-in on a zombie deck. When AER drops, two nice 2 drops in Gifted Aetherborn and Glint-Sleeve Siphoner will give us some other options to play with.
From here, I'm not really sure where to go! The deck probably needs another method to draw cards, as well as some more creatures that I can play in case I miss one of my core drops on curve. I'd love to go white for stuff like Kambal, Chief of Allocation, Sorin, Grim Nemesis and Anguished Unmaking, but with literally every one of our core cards having double black I don't think splashing is a very viable option. MAYBE Sorin since you wouldn't need white until turn six.
Does anyone have any ideas for filling out the rest of this deck? Other goodstuff I missed, suggestions for creatures or curve-fillers, ideas on how to add focus to the deck? Any input would be appreciated!
Hi there Jai,
Thanks for the reply! I based the core of my deck off of similar lists I saw on mtgtop8.com where R/G placed in the top 8 of events. A lot of them seemed to run 4x Blossoming Defense. I was hesitant about Incendiary Flow because it's sorcery speed and seems to get a lot of flak from people in this thread because of it. However, I definitely agree with your assessment and will probably test with 4x Flow and a smaller amount of Blossoming Defense instead. Do you think Larger than Life has a place somewhere in the MB? It was something I was unsure of with the aggro variant. I'm also unsure on Collective Defiance, it's a lot of mana that we'd need to spend being reactive. I'll test it out just in case because I do love the versatility it offers. Fleetwheel Cruiser seems okay, but it feels like an SB card to me.
Do you have any thoughts on the midrange list?
Hey there FIRE,
Thank you for the tips, they're greatly appreciated! I'm still focusing on mainboard for the moment, but when I start building my sideboard I will absolutely keep those cards in mind.
I'm getting back into Standard after not playing since the first Innistrad. Following a post in the "What Should I Play" thread, I've decided to build an R/G Energy deck to acclimate to Standard again. I have a couple thoughts after reading through the bulk of this thread:
I think that any deck that is aggressive should probably be capitalizing on Smuggler's Copter, and most Red decks be capitalizing on Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Having no experience in this meta those assumptions could just be total bogus, but that's my impression as of right now. Copter speaks for itself. Everyone knows how valuable that card is (even me, and I haven't even played with it yet). Chandra on the other hand is probably more debatable, but she just feels so strong. Ideally, I think a deck that could consistently drop her T3 or T4 and make use of her +RR ability would shine in building an oppressive board state. Sadly, we don't have a lot of use for RR to drop a creature, but I think she's strong in our lists nonetheless.
From what I can see, there's R/G Electrostatic Pummeler combo, R/G Aggro, and R/G Midrange. I'm not really much of a combo player, so I'm not considering the first list much. The question then is how aggressive should we slant our midrange deck. In keeping with my notes above, the more aggressive the deck, the more likely it can benefit from Copter. However, the more midrange-y variants can likely slot in Chandra much easier.
So, I'm going to build up two lists below, one more aggressive and one more midgame-oriented. I'm going to be making some assumptions that are probably wrong because this environment is completely new to me. If you all would drop your input, tell me where I'm going wrong, and maybe even suggest the better of the two decklists, I would be really grateful!
Aggro List:
4x Kessig Prowler
4x Longtusk Cub
4x Voltaic Brawler
4x Lathnu Hellion
4x Bristling Hydra
4x Smuggler's Copter
Planeswalkers
2x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Instants and Sorceries
4x Blossoming Defense
4x Attune with Aether
2x Incendiary Flow
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Game Trail[/card
4x Aether Hub
2x Cinder Glade
6x Forest
4x Mountain
This deck is fast and low to the ground, with only six cards that are over 3CMC. I've seen people go back and forth on Kessig Prowler, and I'm not sure if I'd rather have that or Bomat Courier, but I think a one drop creature is necessary to maximize Smuggler's Copter and keep the board pressure on. Since we aren't playing any five cost cards, Prowler's ability becomes better as a mid-late mana sink. Bomat would also be fine for refilling our hand. Pia Nalaar is certainly a consideration over Lathnu Hellion here as well to interact even better with Copter, but I think Lathnu is better at pressuring the board in most lines.
The main line we want to see is something like Prolwer -> Cub/Brawler -> Lathnu -> Chandra + Copter/Flow/Lightning. Copter can also come down on two, or we can Attune into Cub, or we can use T3 to drop a 2CMC creature along with Attune, Blossoming Defense or a Prowler. The lines feel versatile and reasonably strong. Whiffing the fist couple turns probably means we lose, but them's the breaks with aggro decks. We're relying on Brawler's Trample, Hellion killing blockers, removal and Chandra to push damage through.
The most obvious question to me is, if we're going full aggro, is B/R or R/W Vehicles just better? I have no idea. Let me know if you think this list has any chance of standing on its own.
Midrange List:
4x Voltaic Brawler
4x Servant of the Conduit
2x Longtusk Cub
4x Tireless Tracker
3x Bristling Hydra
3x Verdurous Gearhulk
3x Chandra, Torch of Defiance
Instants and Sorceries
4x Blossoming Defense
4x Attune with Aether
4x Harnessed Lightning
4x Larger than Life
3x Incendiary Flow
4x Aether Hub
4x Game Trail
4x Cinder Glade
6x Forest
4x Mountain
This version uses ramp and value creatures to get on the board faster than the opponent and outvalue them. As with most of the midrange variants running around, one drop creatures are absent. The best T1 play is Attune to Aether, but in case you don't have that, you can always just drop a Game Trail tapped and not lose much tempo. The deck is still capable of winning early with a good Cub line, and Larger than Life supplements that plan by sneaking in damage through chump blockers. Tireless Tracker comes in here as a way to keep playing into the late game, while Bristling Hydra, Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and Verdurous Gearhulk act as our big beaters/finishers.
Best lines include Attune -> Cub -> Tracker -> Chandra + Removal -> Gearhulk, as well as Servant -> Hydra -> Gearhulk. This one overall feels a little clunkier but has access to much more staying power in the midgame. As seen in all of these lists, the 3 cost spot is weird and makes our lines sometimes not feel great. This list is unable to benefit much from Smuggler's Copter, because all the early creatures have things they'd rather do than crew a Vehicle.
Final Note: Having zero experience with the meta, I don't have any sideboards worked out yet. After getting some feedback and settling on a list, I'll start crafting an SB.
OKAY! Sorry to spam the thread with such a huge post! I hope I'm able to spark some worthwhile discussion and I don't end up just needlessly cluttering the thread
That's a good insight. Thank you for taking the time to reply. I'll make sure to do some experimenting with control as I can. I guess I should stop stressing so much about FNM level events
Totally! I agree with pretty much everything you said. I definitely plan on switching over to control at some point, but for now I'm just looking to find my feet and see if this environment is enjoyable for me. That's why I'm looking for a deck on the cheaper side, so if I end up not enjoying myself, I won't have spent much money. Would you recommend Jeskai control as the best control deck at the moment?
Thanks for the replies, guys! I'll give G/R Energy a look. I've traditionally been a control player, played some aggro back when delver was at its prime in standard, but it seems like control in particular is in kind of a weird spot right now. I wouldn't say I'm a newbie per say, I played for years, but for some reason the current meta just feels really different to me.
I haven't played Magic for a couple of years outside of the occasional draft or casual game. The last set I played seriously was the first Innistrad block. I'm looking into getting back into the game, but I'm having kind of a hard time navigating standard at the moment! I'm not really familiar with any of the new sets (though I did follow them to an extent as they were coming out) and the top 8 decks that I've found are really confusing... like the u/w aggro deck that only runs 4x one drop creatures and 4x two drop creatures, and only 20 creatures total... what??
I'd like to start attending FNM at my local game store, which I believe rotates between doing standard and draft every other week. For drafting I'll be fine of course, but I'm kind of lost with what I should work toward with standard. Does anyone have any suggestions for a good deck for someone coming back into the standard scene after a long absence? At the moment I'm looking for a budget deck if possible, since I'm not sure how long I'll stick with it, but I do have a good amount of old money cards that I could trade for newer stuff.
In addition to deck recommendations, any general advice or observations about the standard climate would be very much appreciated. Thank you!!
Good question. Well written. Good discussion. There's a thread for that. Thanks! - hoser2