Thanks for all the help, I have been playing the s*** out of this deck the last few days and it has been great. I do have a question, how do you manage the massive hand sizes? Once I get the draw engine up, I am drawing so many cards. At times I have 12-14 cards in hand. How do you manage the large hand size?Especially if I don't have solitary confinement out on the field. Burgeoning did help the one game I drew it early, in a 4 person multiplayer game, I was able to keep handsize down playing so many lands. Is a playset the answer? Here's my current play list:
Play Waste Not. Throw in a playset and never look back. That card with Windfalls is one of the quickest ways to destroy a multiplayer table. It's easy to underestimate it's impact if you have never played it or seen it played at a multiplayer table... but the card is nuts.
I can see how powerful it will be. I will run a playset. My concern is if 5 other players each discard say 4 cards on average with wheel and deal, of those 20 cards 8-12 will probably be non land non creature cards. I will draw 8-10 cards (+1 from wheel and deal). If i had 2-3 in play.. that's potentially a 15-20 card draw.
On second thought.. maybe I now fully understand the windfall combo.. All the free mana (with no more mana burn)allows me to play several more draw cards or windfall. Interesting..
Thanks. Can I make this a two color deck? I am worried about mana. city of brass can go along way to fix mana, although the deck has no life gain. Other thoughts about being 3 colored?
After receiving so much great feedback and help with my enchantress deck, I thought I would ask about a second deck I have been thinking alot about. As I said in my other thread, I am just returning to magic -- one of my favorite combos of all time was a wheel of fortune with 1-3 underworld dreams in play. I started researching new cards that would fit this archetype. I found a huge amount of cards. After using what I learned about building multiplayer decks from the last thread here is my current list:
this puts me at 62 cards. I am thinking about cutting the wall of tears but I am worried this deck offers very little resistance or defense in early game. This is why I have added some removal (bolt, boomerang, counterspell)
Other cards I am considering:
dark deal - lesser version of windfall megrim - with all the discard accompanying all the draw, it makes sense, but then it seems like I am trying two different things wheel of fate waste not worried about milling myself in a large multiplayer game (6+ players) whirlpool warrior ischron scepter innocent blood better removal in some cases?
I know I need 8-12 draw engine cards and 6-10 combo cards to deal damage with the draws. How does it look? Anything to consider? Anything I am missing?
2 green sun's zenith - do you need more than 2? seems like you'd want to run more because of its ability to pull up enchantresses but it gets recycled so it may be a dead card once the engine is running (if I ran 4 that is)
1 open the vaults
1 regrowth - I know most advised to cut it, it seems so valuable for 2 mana to grab anything that might have been hated on
Puts me at 64 cards, if push comes to shove I can cut regrowth and feldon's cane. Leaves me with two more cuts. any suggestions? Any glaring cards I have missed?
Ghostly prison seems like a redundancy (less effective) to sphere of safety. Solitary confinement is still being considered.
Last question, is hand size ever an issue with so much draw? reliquary tower needs consideration?
Wow, thanks so much for the feedback. The community here is great. I will tinker with your advice today and try to post an updated card list. From those who have stated they have extensive experience with this deck, was it successful in your meta? I know you know nothing of my play groups style, but IYO was this a viable deck?
I mean this whole process started over finding a sigil in a cheap rare box, that doesn't mean its a strong deck. Coming back to magic and seeing all the new mechanics has me in a bit of a frenzy. I discovered constellation cards this morning.. wow it makes me want to revamp my favorite combo of all time ( 2 or 3 Underworld dreams and a wheel of fortune / winds of change) Every time i start doing research I find another archetype that looks fun and interesting. Also, when I was really playing "net decking" as I have discovered never existed. A buddy pulled a Doppelganger and we spent hours trying to build an archetype around it. This love of single player deck building seems to be exploding with all these new sets and archetypes.. as I digress..
I will make a new updated card list, but am I wasting my time? I suppose I will just have to construct several decks over the next few weeks. Anyone have a part time job in the Salt Lake City area o.O -- I think I might need it.
I am just returning to magic after a long respite. The last pack I bought was Alliance and I just found out the 4th edition and fallen empires set (100s of lawns mowed) I painstakingly assembled are virtually worthless (apart from you sylvan library). I am a high school teacher who experienced unbelievable nostalgia as I walked past a group of kids playing last week. So I brought in my old decks to show these young guns what was up. I was full of confidence as I pulled out my 93/94 playset legal turbo stasis deck. All I had ever played back then was 1v1 games. Needless to say my stasis deck made me an immediate target and died quickly. Then my mono black control / land destruction deck got taken to town. Turbo Fog was up next and well it too was no match. I though for sure my Tax Edge deck would propel me to victory...
Now you see why I am here. Ive never constructed a multiplayer deck. As I watched our games unfold I began to see our meta. Token decks, UR control, Extort (new crazy magic term), some unfair mill deck that was milling 20+ cards at a time (still don't know the mechanics of that). So I began to look through my old cards and found one I always loved but couldn't get to work in single player: verduran enchantress
This idea of an enchantment deck started brewing. Coupling this thought with a recent trip to a local card shop (scoured a rare card box where each card was a dime) I found sigil of the empty throne I decided on the win con of my first multiplayer deck -- sigil of the empty throne
I have just been reading through threads and card lists trying to find cards that offer synergy to this archetype and quickly found my deck list over 90. I can't quite decide if drawing cards is the objective to get me an advantage and spamming enchantments with sigil will be the right direction? Or should I focus on life gain instead of card draw?
Here is what I have any advice would be great. As far as budget, I am trying to stay around 75 bucks. Thanks
All of the synergies make it hard to focus. As you can see, I am new to multiplayer deck building (this list took like 15 hours of research qq). Any advice would be great. Also, I only own a few of these cards so I have done no play testing. I would need to purchase most of them. So I am in theorycraft mode with 0 testing, sounds stupid to me...
Creatures: 6
2 argothian enchantress-
4 verduran enchantress
Artifacts: 2
1 elixir of immortality
1 null rod - a few kids run Nevinyrral's disk and other activated board clears
Enchantments: 30
1 blind obedience
1 burgeoning
4 elephant grass
2 enchantress's presence
4 ghostly prison - my meta runs a few aggro decks
1 island sanctuary
1 karmic justice
2 luminarch ascension
2 sigil of the empty throne
1 solitary confinement
1 sphere of safety
2 sterling grove
4 utopia sprawl
4 wild growth
Land:19
6 forest
5 Plains
4 Savannah
4 sunpetal grove
Sorcery: 4
3 green sun's zenith
1 open the vaults
Thanks in advance
Updated List:
Artifact: 2
elixir of immortality
geth's grimoire
Creature: 6
2 fate unraveler
2 jace's archivist
2 notion thief
Enchantments: 12
4 Megrim
4 underworld dreams
4 Waste not
Instant: 11
1 boomerang
2 brainstorm
2 counterspell
2 dark ritual
4 wheel and deal
Land: 19
4 drowned catacomb
8 island
7 swamp
Sorcery: 14
3 dark deal
1 demonic tutor
2 exsanguinate
2 innocent blood
2 sickening dreams
4 windfall
Planeswalker:
liliana vess
I am at 65 cards any suggestions about cutting? Liliana made alot of sense to add here..
Thanks for the help thus far.
I can see how powerful it will be. I will run a playset. My concern is if 5 other players each discard say 4 cards on average with wheel and deal, of those 20 cards 8-12 will probably be non land non creature cards. I will draw 8-10 cards (+1 from wheel and deal). If i had 2-3 in play.. that's potentially a 15-20 card draw.
On second thought.. maybe I now fully understand the windfall combo.. All the free mana (with no more mana burn)allows me to play several more draw cards or windfall. Interesting..
Thanks. Can I make this a two color deck? I am worried about mana. city of brass can go along way to fix mana, although the deck has no life gain. Other thoughts about being 3 colored?
The only problem is black provides the win con, i.e. underworld dreams, fate unraveler, and spiteful visions. I didnt really find alternatives in blue/red apart from fevered visions but that's more like howling mine and black vise had a baby.
Creatures: 6
2 argothian enchantress- trying to keep costs low I will run 2 at first, and see how clunky it is with only 2
4 verduran enchantress
Artifacts: 1
1 elixir of immortality
Enchantments: 30
2 blind obedience
4 elephant grass
2 enchantress's presence
2 hoofprints of the stag
1 island sanctuary
1 karmic justice
2 luminarch ascension
2 sigil of the empty throne
2 solitary confinement
2 sphere of safety
2 sterling grove
4 utopia sprawl
4 wild growth
Land:19
6 forest
5 Plains
4 Savannah
4 sunpetal grove
Sorcery: 4
3 green sun's zenith
1 open the vaults
how does it look? I will get to test it this week. I will report back.
Artifact: 1
elixir of immortality
Creature: 9
3 fate unraveler
3 jace's archivist
1 psychosis crawler
2 wall of tears
Enchantments: 7
4 spiteful visions
3 underworld dreams
Instant: 12
2 boomerang
2 counterspell
1 firestorm
4 lightning bolt
3 wheel and deal
Land: 23
1 badlands
4 dragonskull summit
4 drowned catacomb
6 island
4 mountain
4 swamp
Sorcery: 10
1 demonic tutor
2 sickening dreams
1 wheel of fortune
3 windfall
3 winds of change
this puts me at 62 cards. I am thinking about cutting the wall of tears but I am worried this deck offers very little resistance or defense in early game. This is why I have added some removal (bolt, boomerang, counterspell)
Other cards I am considering:
dark deal - lesser version of windfall
megrim - with all the discard accompanying all the draw, it makes sense, but then it seems like I am trying two different things
wheel of fate
waste not worried about milling myself in a large multiplayer game (6+ players)
whirlpool warrior
ischron scepter
innocent blood better removal in some cases?
I know I need 8-12 draw engine cards and 6-10 combo cards to deal damage with the draws. How does it look? Anything to consider? Anything I am missing?
Thanks in advance.
New refined list:
Creatures: 11
2 argothian enchantress- trying to keep costs low I will run 2 at first, and see how clunky it is with only 2
2 eidolon of blossoms
1 herald of the pantheon - the life gain and enchantment reduction seems hard to cut, but what can he really do as a 1 of?
2 nyx-fleece ram - early body and life gain if my muligans are awful
4 verduran enchantress
Artifacts: 1
1 feldon's cane - is it not a great counter to mill decks?
Enchantments: 26
2 blind obedience
2 genju of the fields - synergy with enchantresses and gives you a decent body if needed before pillow is up and running
2 enchantress's presence- again for budget sake running 2 of, after testing might pump to 4
2 hoofprints of the stag
1 island sanctuary
0 Land Tax - seems so wrong not to run them, it has always been a staple in every white deck I have built, any reason to run it? please?
2 liminarch ascension
2 sigil of the empty throne
2 sphere of safety
3 sterling grove
0 sylvan library - another staple in every green deck I have built, I guess with the draw engine it is unnecessary
4 utopia sprawl
4 wild growth
Land:23
7 forest
6 Plains
1 blossoming sands
1 sraypelt refuge
4 Savannah
4 sunpetal grove
Sorcery: 4
2 green sun's zenith - do you need more than 2? seems like you'd want to run more because of its ability to pull up enchantresses but it gets recycled so it may be a dead card once the engine is running (if I ran 4 that is)
1 open the vaults
1 regrowth - I know most advised to cut it, it seems so valuable for 2 mana to grab anything that might have been hated on
Puts me at 64 cards, if push comes to shove I can cut regrowth and feldon's cane. Leaves me with two more cuts. any suggestions? Any glaring cards I have missed?
Ghostly prison seems like a redundancy (less effective) to sphere of safety. Solitary confinement is still being considered.
Last question, is hand size ever an issue with so much draw? reliquary tower needs consideration?
thanks!
Creatures: 18
1 Aegis of the gods - not great early, but being hexproof once the pillow is up is nice to eliminate direct damage (budget solitary confinement)
2 courser of kruphix feels like it helps with ramp and life gain is nice (on the cut bubble though)
2 eidolon of blossoms
2 herald of the pantheon
4 mesa enchantress
3 nyx-fleece ram
4 verduran enchantress
Artifacts: 1
1 feldon's cane
Enchantments: 31
2 blind obedience
2 flickering ward
2 genju of the fields
2 gossamer chains
2 hoofprints of the stag
1 island sanctuary
2 Land Tax - so hard not to include.. does it fit?
2 sigil of the empty throne
2 sphere of safety
2 sterling grove - seems like the all star, any reason not to run 4?
1 sylvan library
4 utopia sprawl
2 whip silk
4 wild growth
1 words of worship
Land:22
5 forest
7 Plains
3 blossoming sands
3 sraypelt refuge
4 Savannah - only own 4, the most of the duals I had, which is why I chose WG (bad reason?)
Sorcery: 1
1 open the vaults
Still need to cut 13 cards...
I mean this whole process started over finding a sigil in a cheap rare box, that doesn't mean its a strong deck. Coming back to magic and seeing all the new mechanics has me in a bit of a frenzy. I discovered constellation cards this morning.. wow it makes me want to revamp my favorite combo of all time ( 2 or 3 Underworld dreams and a wheel of fortune / winds of change) Every time i start doing research I find another archetype that looks fun and interesting. Also, when I was really playing "net decking" as I have discovered never existed. A buddy pulled a Doppelganger and we spent hours trying to build an archetype around it. This love of single player deck building seems to be exploding with all these new sets and archetypes.. as I digress..
I will make a new updated card list, but am I wasting my time? I suppose I will just have to construct several decks over the next few weeks. Anyone have a part time job in the Salt Lake City area o.O -- I think I might need it.
@chiefdrana, are you not worried about life gain in early game as you are setting up the engine? Is extort from blind obedience enough?
@maelstorm I will look into those duals.. 2 bucks a pop is manageable -- Thanks
any input on what could be cut?
Now you see why I am here. Ive never constructed a multiplayer deck. As I watched our games unfold I began to see our meta. Token decks, UR control, Extort (new crazy magic term), some unfair mill deck that was milling 20+ cards at a time (still don't know the mechanics of that). So I began to look through my old cards and found one I always loved but couldn't get to work in single player: verduran enchantress
This idea of an enchantment deck started brewing. Coupling this thought with a recent trip to a local card shop (scoured a rare card box where each card was a dime) I found sigil of the empty throne I decided on the win con of my first multiplayer deck -- sigil of the empty throne
I have just been reading through threads and card lists trying to find cards that offer synergy to this archetype and quickly found my deck list over 90. I can't quite decide if drawing cards is the objective to get me an advantage and spamming enchantments with sigil will be the right direction? Or should I focus on life gain instead of card draw?
Here is what I have any advice would be great. As far as budget, I am trying to stay around 75 bucks. Thanks
Creatures: 27
1 Aegis of the gods
2 celestial ancient
4 courser of kruphix
4 eidolon of blossoms
1 femeref enchantress
4 herald of the pantheon
4 mesa enchantress
3 nyx-fleece ram
4 verduran enchantress
Artifacts: 4
1 sol ring
1 feldon's cane
2 helm of the gods
Enchantments: 33
2 fertile ground
2 flickering ward
2 frontier siege
2 genju of the fields
2 ghostly prison
2 gossamer chains
3 hoofprints of the stag
1 island sanctuary
2 Land Tax - so hard not to include.. does it fit?
2 oblivion ring
2 sigil of the empty throne
2 sphere of safety
3 starfield of nyx
4 sterling grove - seems like the all star, any reason not to run 4?
1 sylvan library
2 wild growth
2 words of worship
Land:
3 forest
4 Plains
4 blossoming sands
4 sraypelt refuge
4 Savannah - only own 4, the most of the duals I had, which is why I chose WG (bad reason?)
2 reliquary tower
Sorcery:
1 armageddon
2 kruphix's insight
2 open the vaults
1 regrowth
Other possible cards
argothian enchantress
utopia sprawl
All of the synergies make it hard to focus. As you can see, I am new to multiplayer deck building (this list took like 15 hours of research qq). Any advice would be great. Also, I only own a few of these cards so I have done no play testing. I would need to purchase most of them. So I am in theorycraft mode with 0 testing, sounds stupid to me...
Thanks in advance