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A Reckoning on Kamigawa
 
The Magic Market Index for Oct 20, 2017
 
The Magic Market Index for Oct 13, 2017
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    In my experience yes. With burn and and nauseam.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Mausoleum Wanderer is like cursecatcher on steroids. Rattlechains makes that they can play everything eot. That by itself made exhaustion pointless. Also T2 geist is almost unbeatable.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    I have never won a single game against bant spirits. How did you do that?
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Corroto »
    Quote from Thenarus »
    Quote from Corroto »
    I Personally dont think Turns is a deck that needs to be running 8-9 1 mana cantrips. I think balancing out your card draw throughout your curve is what is best. Thats what make the 2 drop slot in our deck so important. Finding the right turn 2 interaction that also says draw a card. Because turn 3 and beyond is just gas.
    I used to think the same thing, until I ran Opt over Remand and Spreading Seas. It gives the deck better consistency by getting answers, lands, Mines, or Warps as we need. It's especially potent with Serum Visions to set up Temporal Mastery, as well as Snapcaster Mage and Fatal Push tricks, and it's always proactive and cheap. I definitely don't feel like we get enough from Sleight of Hand or any of the two-mana spells like Telling Time, Peer Through Depths, or Anticipate to justify those over anything else we're already playing, but Opt does some really nice things here.

    Corroto, I'm glad you're liking the red splash. You're really going prison lockout before you go off, which is cool, though I'm wary of the double-red on Sweltering Suns (even in a list that can run Blood Moon). You are right about Collective Brutality; just like how GR Tron went to GB with the printing of that, along with Fatal Push and the already strong discard spells, Turns benefits similarly. Combo and Burn giving you fits? Black's just great.

    I will politely disagree with you on Disrupting Shoal, though; although it is good in some decks, we need to be pitching the cheaper cards to really get the value early against decks we need to outpace. That's always a 2-for-1 against us, and our cheap spells are usually the ones we wish we could keep to play in such matches. Now if you could chuck extra early copies of Time Warp effects, that would be amazing, but as is, I think we can do better with our slots than this. I did playtest it pretty thoroughly back in the day, and as excited as I began, after a few weeks I was pretty sour on it in Turns. Same thing happened to me with a number of cards, like Ancestral Vision, and Unsubstantiate (though Unsub is the closest to playable in a typical Turns deck due to its versatility).


    I also like Unsubstantiate. IMO the only reason for sweltering suns is you can cycle it if you don't have the 2 red, otherwise I don't think its playable. I personally don't even play it but was using it as an example. However I have tested it an when you do have the 2 red it is a total blowout and will almost certainly get you there against Aggro.

    I have had a distinctly different experience than almost everyone else testing Disrupting Shoal. It has won so many games for me since I've been running it. The whole idea is the low end of my curve is disruption anyway (Gigadrowse, Boomerang, Exhaustion) so pitching the low end stuff to Shoal essentially gives me the same outcome. It gives me more options. Late game it is awesome to hard cast. For example just at this last fnm, I had 4 mana up and shoal in hand with a good curve of cards in hand. It let me tap out for Chandra with confidence. OP then Gifts at my end step for Iona and Unburial Rites, taps out for it main phase and I Shoal it with a Time Warp and it was GG. Obvously that is only one example but it has been very clutch for me more times than I can count. Its also the head games that I love. To blow out OP game one with Shoal makes them second guess every play in game 2/3 when in reality I sided them out for hate.


    In this scenario remand is better imho
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from paintcops »
    If you read Prism Ring it says that "when YOU play", not when they play.

    I think CotV has no replacement. They are really really good against Grixis DS, Burn, and other less seen decks but hard matchups for us (Bogles, KCI, Elves).


    I agree, modern is very diverse and Chalice is good against a lot of stuff, Bogles, 8-rack, Soul sisters, Elves, Shadow, Ad Nauseaum, Lantern, Storm (in theory), random cascade stuff, burn, ascendancy even and people bring it in against Affinity as well (I don't)! I dislike bringing in such narrow sideboard cards like prism ring that only gain life. You won't get to play enough spells to prevent burn from killing you if they can.

    That we are running more cantrips and thus one mana stuff with opt makes it easier to sideboard! Just cut 3 cantrips for 3 chalices. I used to cut at least one visions when boarding in Chalice.

    One sidenote though: playing one less land with Opt makes you vunerable when boarding out cantrips!
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    I board it in against almost all creature decks. I have developed a tendency to board in only one thing, as a back up plan. I only play two in the side because all these cantrips make them easier to find.
    Bedankt mindful that in a control match up, counter wars will quickly flip your thing without having to commit to the board.
    Path on your thing is usually good for us, but don't always block VS burn out of fear for searing Blaze. They don't always take it out because they have too few sideboard options.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    can some one please direct me to the page with sideboard explanations.

    so many things im not sure about.
    for example whats thing in the ice for


    You use it to block and not die then you need only a couple of extra turns to flip it and kill the opponent. Preferably after they boarded out their removal.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Dispel for gifts, remand for tempo and pray that they don't have it.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    It might be yet another proof of modern Boeing a 'know your deck' format.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    I guess I'm somewhat off topic when I bring these up but I've always enjoyed scouring through individual sets and singles. A day or two ago the new judge promos were released and this guy is seeing a reprint; Capture of Jingzhou, seems a little off and somewhat late but raises questions.

    If we had access to another 5cc turn spell what would we cut and would the deck change dramatically? To make the deck less top heavy and consistent Temporal Mastery seems like the obvious cut but what would that do to the infrastructure of the deck itself?

    Would Opt have the same impact in an environment where the standard is 5cc turn spells?

    I'm a bit torn about the hype of a newly introduced instant cantrip, which I agree with in this archetype, but doesn't have the same effect without cheap reactive spells and a lower mana curve. For many competitive years playing business spells over spells that find said spell was the correct path to play mathematically.

    I guess I'm asking if this would be the card that pushes the deck out of T3 standards into top tier competitiveness. What is the archetype really missing that doesn't draw short lines to pushing the deck to killer instinct?


    The card would be a torrential gearhulk that flashes back sorceries.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from herkamurjones »
    siding in remand is funny given recent discussions in this thread.
    Do you think that the SB Remand is a worthwhile inclusion or a mistake? I'm trying to figure out which way your comment is leaning.
    I completely agree with Mikokoro being a necessary card, not win-more as Corbin says. I've had so many times where the additional draw digs to the card you needed as an "out" to keep going.


    As I have stated many times, I am a firm believer of main deck remands.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    This list looks terrible. I have to read the article, but this feels like a list by someone who hasn't played the deck a ton.
    Edit, after seeing the videos:
    Elixir is terrible, siding in remand is funny given recent discussions in this thread. The side board is a train wreck. No mikokoro is also not a good thing, it is definitly not 'win more'.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Maybe make room for Search for Azcanta? I'm probably just a tad bit overhyped for this card tbh.


    Don't be, this wil be so, so slow for our deck.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    This deck is not like ad nauseam where you insta-win with the right set up. I have passed the turn in the Middle of a chain keeping up giga/cryptic/remand. I have remanded to Flip Titi and so on. I'm still not convinced by commandeer, so disrupting shoal seems like a hard pass.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
  • posted a message on Taking Turns
    Quote from Thenarus »
    Quote from purklefluff »
    Right. Opt.

    The single biggest reason to run Opt is that it makes the deck more consistent. Including it basically doubles the chances of having a meaningful turn one play. Above any other benefit, this is the most important.

    Later in the game, it helps far more than Remand ever did. The fact that Remand is almost purely reactive means there are many times where they can be too late or too slow, or simply get stranded in-hand as bulk, especially when we're trying to go off. Since the decks we are typically worst against are the fastest ones, I'd much rather be greasing my deck with Opt to hit the more meaningful cards more quickly. Remand has been the worst card in the deck for me for awhile, and I won't miss it since I want to be playing as proactively as possible. Opt's ability to help hit turn two Mine or Gigadrowse is far more important to me in those matches.

    The ability to hit the miracle draw for Temporal Mastery is also very good, since this can make us a full turn faster. Last night, I put in about twelve games between rounds at FNM. In one game, I miracled Temporal Mastery three turns in a row (a first), and two other times I did it twice in a row. In two of them, I went off basically on turn three because of this. This makes our deck better against the entire field, including Shadow decks and such. Incidentally, we can Opt during our own upkeep to look a card deeper if we really needed to, say, Gigadrowse the opponent down first at their end of turn. Speaking of which...

    We still have plenty to do at instant speed in this deck. Cryptic, Dictate, Gigadrowse, Temporal Mastery, Snapcaster Mage, and a number of commonly-played sideboard cards are enough to justify Opt on this basis already. It's hard to overstate how relevant it is to be able to see what your opponent is doing before you act when you can, and the power of leaving blue mana open with cards in hand is also great to psych opponents out.

    Flipping Thing in the Ice more consistently can be nice, but since Titi isn't even a maindeck card, I wouldn't claim that this is the main reason to run Opt. It's still very strong though, and who knows, maybe we'll see some people trying them out in the main. I'm too wary of Fatal Push to do so, but at least it makes this option more viable.

    As far as Chalice goes...since the most important aspect of Opt is the strength of our turn one options, Chalice (at least without Simian Spirit Guide) doesn't stuff us before we can set up at least once. This isn't a deck like Burn or Gx Tron where a Chalice set to one means you're basically screwed unless you draw the nuts. True, having eight spells it hits instead of four (I don't count Gigadrowse, since you can replicate through it) could hurt, but I don't feel this is enough of a reason not to max out on Opt, especially since ETron isn't fast enough most times to be really scary. Post-board, cards like Hurkyl's Recall and Engineered Explosives can help out as well, and Titi triggers even if the cantrips are countered.

    Now I could be wrong about not playing our own copies of Chalice; zero is a perfectly viable value in a lot of matches. At one, they might mess with our cantrips, but if they shut off enough key cards early, this could still be worth it. I personally just don't like tripping over my own deck, but I will freely admit that Chalice is still very worth considering.

    I agree that we shouldn't be cutting Serum Visions for Opt, but my instincts and preliminary testing point to Opt being amazing in U-Turns. Once it becomes legal, I'll probably shelve Gx Tron for awhile to get some better reps in with this deck. I'm really excited after what little I experienced last night. I'm also excited to see how the UB players work in Opt as well.


    I follow most of your reasoning, but I think it is cognitive dissonance dismissing Remand as 'bulk' but downplaying countering your own Opt/Serum Vision with Chalice of the Void. Remand be cycled giving enough mana.
    Without early interaction (like remand) the fast match ups get even worse.
    Posted in: Developing Competitive (Modern)
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