Agree on all your points about different legality lists.
As to the Misthollow Griffin? That has been brought up and discussed. Griffin was initially in an oppressive listing. Several weeks after the release of the Scoure, i brought this up. We decided to wait and see, immediately the old archetype master won with the new card. It hasnt been oppressive since the initial appearance but it always seems in contention when the original player shows up with it. A few others tried and ultimately had mediocre results and have moved on to other decks. So maybe it is a good time to let TLR ponder this again, but with the just announced ban lists and don't expect much until next rotation, if the deck stays at a mostly unplayed state.
I dont think banning two cards that are reasonable cards so that the problem card can still be allowed to just "maybe" be a problem going forward is an efficient answer to the problem.
There haven't been alot of people even putting up real attempts at trying to solve the problem with cloudpost in actual game play. This season has been one of target whatever won the previous week if its obvious(gW midrange in response to burn)(then cloudpost to hose the midrange creature decks). Or just play whatever won and snowball the chances of the better deck winning more often.
If the case is that cloudpost is far and away superior, which TLR has shown math as such, it should be the target for ban IMO. I personally would like bannings to come along with rotation announcements for sake of clarity and preparation by the field of competitors.
If everyone feels its alot of gambling on which matchup the round you play cloudpost gets for the invitational deck and wants it banned for that (assuming a ban at rotation) I can get behind that, but dont personally have a preference either way pre season end.
I agree on cloudpost looking to be a problem. And dark ritual while super fun cant be in right now. we have a near working storm deck and with ritual it is busted. not ideal.
With a new year and reflection, I want to say how happy I am that we unbanned some cards and as I had assumed they had almost zero impact on the environment. I hope that this leads to more in the coming rotations.
Hope everyone has a safe and happy end to this year, and as much success as you are willing to make for yourself in the coming year.
Subject
DREAM HALLS IS BUGGED< but they sold it to me anyways.
Response By Email (Support Rep) (11/14/2016 09:40 PM)
Hello Glenn,
Thank you for contacting us. Unfortunately, I cannot reverse any trades for you. All trades with other parties are final.
We are, however, aware of the issue with Dream Halls and are working to fix it. Thank you for your patience in the meantime.
The above has been reported. Currently Dream Halls doesn't really work on mtgo. I had spent a few weeks building a sweet Dream Halls brew up, and learned in testing the hard way.
So don't invest in this card unless you are trying to buy it while cheap and hold until the card is fixed.
Bringing this up because it was on a handful of cards I was really excited about rotating in this time around.
Now I guess I can figure out Birthing Pod and friends.
I brought this to TLR and he said for now we are going with the list mtgotraders list of Thalia, Heretic Cathar. That is almost assuredly a mistake though, the 1w version has been .40-.60 for months now. The Heretic Cathar I bought in at around .85 as a low, and it hovers 1-1.25 pretty regularly. It is a big card in the mirror GW matchups, so expect it for now and be ready to rotate them at rotation. I know my WW deck really wants the Guardian of Thraben to give it some game vs combo.
I decided to continue to respect the rules of PRE this weekend. I was knocked out of the elimination by a host unwilling to let a final cut be established, and he went out of his way also delaying his own matchup in top 8 by over 10 minutes to "call" every name on the list until the 12th ranked player at the end of swiss (a losing record overall) was given the 8th slot and mtgo did its thing mana flooding me out of the tournament.
I only bring this up because I followed the rules, and it is annoying to have hosts actively manipulate the tournament standings. While this was going on I did not participate in the overlapping heirloom tournament, because that is against the rules of this tournament. Jeopardizing my place in the final 16 tournament is a choice I made, one with the integrity of the game in question. If we allow participation in multiple PRE or with multiple accounts in the same PRE, I would like to also get to play by those rules and have them removed from the front pages. If not I would like for the rules to atleast be passed along to all participants in the event and after they are clear to be followed.
There wasnt a precedent in my other event for them to just call up every one down the line and find me an opponent. Here there is a precedent that we do not play in another PRE at the same time. I didn't know that at first, but was asked to adhere. Either the other people that are still doing that haven't been given a link to the rules on page 1 of this thread, or they are being allowed to follow them as/when they see fit.
For clarification this is the second paragraph post 1, I would like a repeal of this rule OR strict adherence to not only multi Qeueing but multiple accounting in the same PRE event.(yes the 2nd is much harder to enforce):
"All players will be required to upload their decklists there. Players without a legal deck list entered in Gatherling at start of event, will be dropped by the system automatically.
Double queuing is not allowed. Any player caught playing in another PRE while playing in a Heirloom event will be disqualified from the Heirloom event."
Thanks
Littlefield
ps. I really just want to play magic cards. Thanks for looking.
This is likely incentive for me to return to Sundays. I will voice dissatisfaction in not being allowed to play in different PRE, while others have been doing the same in my absence. And for the players who are double dipping, it is being noticed.
Likely have a top 8 for season there locked in, so dont mind bringing the heat for TLWB/GG back.
It was pretty clear everyone expected a red menace and just built the obvious deck to beat that and hymn. This does show that red is clearly not oppressive, even the red players opted out under the immense scrutiny . WOuld like to see some real decks using the combo cards that rotated in, if anyone wants to strategize me and my son have been working on the obvious ones.
so first I have to do it
"ARE YOU CONVINCED?"
Now onto my real post
After seeing CAWblade back (AND THE POWER OF SPELL PIERCE in my deck) I think that i'm again flip flopping like a politician.
TLDR I'm still all for banning ceph and Unbanning some things ..... but I just feel its unhealthy in the format and I think we would have a better format with it gone and outside you I don't think anyone would miss getting turned 2'ed by it... I know I won't and I play the deck.
-Cephalid, The version that I read about today certainly looked like having the "usual" sideboard cards wasnt going to just cut it. He hit a nail on a head though, no one likes losing on turn 2. You can have whatever sideboard card you want but some hands are very keepable but may require a come into play tapped land. Just having to mulligan to 6 because your opponent may play cephalid on a given week since they didnt win the week prior is awkward. This could probably go one more rotation to see how the new control decks pan out and how more decks not having the first land come in tapped works out, but it could be 3 more months of bad feelings. Im voting neutral on this one, but definitely "heavily watched"
-Hymn probably feels the same way when you lose, but thats jsut because people don't complain about the times they get hymn'd once and go on to still win with the early threat they deployed. They just feel the bitter pain that is getting your one combo piece pulled or 2 of the 3 lands you kept so wisely in your opening hand. The numbers don't really support a hymn ban. It is never actually ending the game on the 2nd or 3rd turn by itself.
I am glad a reasonable control deck came along, I havnet played against it yet, but i wasnt even sure anything based on UW control was viable at the time. Giving that deck and other blue based decks FoF should further show that hymn is a great card but not overpowered when effective recovery spells are in the format.
While this is not enough data in the format Penny Dreadful both Hymn and Fact of Fiction are legal, in the first event the FoF deck ruled the day. Historically hymn has had a few times to shine but they are almost always a 2nd tier or metagame special strategy. (Outside of the Necro days)
-Zuran orb is probably going to give me fits in play, but whatever its got some utility but we can always come back if something breaks it.
-I was all for Misthollow being unbanned but I asked for someone to show me something and I saw a glimpse, I am in the corner of leave Eternal Scourge for now, and have both cards be monitored for potential ban or unban.
-FOF/Counterspell I am probably only person who wants both unbanned, it is likely that I may play a psychatog at some event if that ever happens to get it out of my system. In all other circumstances I am probably the least likely player to ever play counterspell in a deck, and I promise my FoF splits will be fun for everyone(not you though)
-Invigorate remains banned? Until atleast a few more good mana options come into play untapped I am against turn 2 format. I don't mind a little speed and exciting game play, and think deck building should answer problems, but not wanting to be just a mono color linear shouldnt mean you have to play with a mana disadvantage against the field.
-Decree of Justice didnt make the TLR list, but I am for it being unbanned or put in the same "under watch" that I would put the griffin/scourge on.
-Goblin Piledriver didnt make the TLR list, but I am for it being unbanned hope that someone makes it seem like we should be watching it, but that is unlikely without some more cards coming into the price range that power it up.
-Dark Ritual didnt make the TLR list, keep it banned even the fun decks are so high variance with this card, and the ones that only i find fun are devious. I love this card but the variance and power level are extreme.
Glacial Fortress is most likely rotating back into the format also, around 40 copies sitting on mtgotraders under 40cents currently. Guess its time to fill up my playset.
I seen a player suggesting Yavimaya Coast and Personal Tutor for the cephalid deck. Personal tutor is interesting but blue, did I miss the green addition that was being alluded to? Regrowth effect maybe? Groundseal in the sideboard with a fair plan after?
My post was not advocating a cephalid ban. I was looking for clarification on what constitutes a ban for this particular format. I was unsure if it is based on power level, or fun factor, or the avg kill turn of the fastest combo?
Ok, thanks for the clarification. Perhaps the fact that after you said it some of the others said "cephalid has to go", I perceived all the posts as asking for a ban. Do you think it should be banned, though?
One thing I do feel should be open to all players whether thru announcements during the tournaments or beforehand on this thread: I do not like the idea of preemptive banning without it being widely known beforehand, this would allow others to chime in, share data, fears, pros/cons, etc. (...) I don't think it is fair to punish the players who are willing to prepare in advance for the format by stripping them of the time and even cost they put into decks anticipating new cards.
Noted. It wasn't my intention to punish anyone. I also had to buy the cards to test them myself and after some crafting and adjustment I decided to remove them, so effectively I lost that time and tix, but I didn't thought of the impact on the other players.
What I do disagree though, is letting a card I believe is broken, just to see what will happen. If there is a wrong evaluation, that's one thing, but letting a broken card pass is another.
I am of the opinion that some cards should be unbanned, Either counterspell of Fact of Fiction(both at first would be a big change and i understand that, I feel that both would be fine, but understand a one or the other start), Misthollow Griffin, Decree of Justice, Goblin Piledriver, Zuran Orb all seem out of place as bans if we are allowing the cards we have now. I think that cephalid is very close to being bannable but at the current time I would allow it and Hymn to tourach if one of the blue answers comes back into the format. (*note that I think cephalid is fine, but that is also assuming that we are ok with a turn 3ish format. If we were looking for no turn 2 kills we would need to ban one of its must have cards and berserk)
Yeah I understand not wanting something too broken in the format and if that is the stance to be taken I understand. I would like as I asked just to try to include others in the process if possible. Just asking for feedback in the tournament chatroom or here a few weeks before rotation should be more than sufficient. That would let you get a feel for what others think about a broken card and open up discussion which may lead you to a card you have missed. I don't think anyone is going to be purposefully withholding broken cards they are working on if they are truly a problem. Just a little discussion this time showed that several people have already been watching the market and have been working on the new land denial packages that orzhov offers, and I am sure they are also working on solution decks to those and the other current problems.
Yavimaya coast came in with the last rotation, so you can already be playing that one if you want. Already was used in a top 4 UG infect that was played once earlier this season along with the other UG lands that rotated in.
My post was not advocating a cephalid ban. I was looking for clarification on what constitutes a ban for this particular format. I was unsure if it is based on power level, or fun factor, or the avg kill turn of the fastest combo? It seems sometimes in the past they banned based on decks that could put together a reasonable amount of turn 3 kills, i dont know what % they used as the threshold. At other times it seemed like whatever won for more than a few times would get a ban to mix things up again.
One thing I do feel should be open to all players whether thru announcements during the tournaments or beforehand on this thread: I do not like the idea of preemptive banning without it being widely known beforehand, this would allow others to chime in, share data, fears, pros/cons, etc. While I am still pretty sure invigorate was going to be a problem(i was testing it also), it would have been fun to atleast get to see how broke we could have made it, and then the inevitable metagaming among the infect players. I don't think it is fair to punish the players who are willing to prepare in advance for the format by stripping them of the time and even cost they put into decks anticipating new cards. I am not saying that they can ever count on a card being legal at a rotation, but I have found that just following market trends I have identified most of the stronger coming rotations and was able to pick them up before the rush to change decks.
As to the Misthollow Griffin? That has been brought up and discussed. Griffin was initially in an oppressive listing. Several weeks after the release of the Scoure, i brought this up. We decided to wait and see, immediately the old archetype master won with the new card. It hasnt been oppressive since the initial appearance but it always seems in contention when the original player shows up with it. A few others tried and ultimately had mediocre results and have moved on to other decks. So maybe it is a good time to let TLR ponder this again, but with the just announced ban lists and don't expect much until next rotation, if the deck stays at a mostly unplayed state.
There haven't been alot of people even putting up real attempts at trying to solve the problem with cloudpost in actual game play. This season has been one of target whatever won the previous week if its obvious(gW midrange in response to burn)(then cloudpost to hose the midrange creature decks). Or just play whatever won and snowball the chances of the better deck winning more often.
If the case is that cloudpost is far and away superior, which TLR has shown math as such, it should be the target for ban IMO. I personally would like bannings to come along with rotation announcements for sake of clarity and preparation by the field of competitors.
If everyone feels its alot of gambling on which matchup the round you play cloudpost gets for the invitational deck and wants it banned for that (assuming a ban at rotation) I can get behind that, but dont personally have a preference either way pre season end.
With a new year and reflection, I want to say how happy I am that we unbanned some cards and as I had assumed they had almost zero impact on the environment. I hope that this leads to more in the coming rotations.
Hope everyone has a safe and happy end to this year, and as much success as you are willing to make for yourself in the coming year.
cheers
Littlefield
DREAM HALLS IS BUGGED< but they sold it to me anyways.
Response By Email (Support Rep) (11/14/2016 09:40 PM)
Hello Glenn,
Thank you for contacting us. Unfortunately, I cannot reverse any trades for you. All trades with other parties are final.
We are, however, aware of the issue with Dream Halls and are working to fix it. Thank you for your patience in the meantime.
The above has been reported. Currently Dream Halls doesn't really work on mtgo. I had spent a few weeks building a sweet Dream Halls brew up, and learned in testing the hard way.
So don't invest in this card unless you are trying to buy it while cheap and hold until the card is fixed.
Bringing this up because it was on a handful of cards I was really excited about rotating in this time around.
Now I guess I can figure out Birthing Pod and friends.
I decided to continue to respect the rules of PRE this weekend. I was knocked out of the elimination by a host unwilling to let a final cut be established, and he went out of his way also delaying his own matchup in top 8 by over 10 minutes to "call" every name on the list until the 12th ranked player at the end of swiss (a losing record overall) was given the 8th slot and mtgo did its thing mana flooding me out of the tournament.
I only bring this up because I followed the rules, and it is annoying to have hosts actively manipulate the tournament standings. While this was going on I did not participate in the overlapping heirloom tournament, because that is against the rules of this tournament. Jeopardizing my place in the final 16 tournament is a choice I made, one with the integrity of the game in question. If we allow participation in multiple PRE or with multiple accounts in the same PRE, I would like to also get to play by those rules and have them removed from the front pages. If not I would like for the rules to atleast be passed along to all participants in the event and after they are clear to be followed.
There wasnt a precedent in my other event for them to just call up every one down the line and find me an opponent. Here there is a precedent that we do not play in another PRE at the same time. I didn't know that at first, but was asked to adhere. Either the other people that are still doing that haven't been given a link to the rules on page 1 of this thread, or they are being allowed to follow them as/when they see fit.
For clarification this is the second paragraph post 1, I would like a repeal of this rule OR strict adherence to not only multi Qeueing but multiple accounting in the same PRE event.(yes the 2nd is much harder to enforce):
"All players will be required to upload their decklists there. Players without a legal deck list entered in Gatherling at start of event, will be dropped by the system automatically.
Double queuing is not allowed. Any player caught playing in another PRE while playing in a Heirloom event will be disqualified from the Heirloom event."
Thanks
Littlefield
ps. I really just want to play magic cards. Thanks for looking.
Likely have a top 8 for season there locked in, so dont mind bringing the heat for TLWB/GG back.
-Cephalid, The version that I read about today certainly looked like having the "usual" sideboard cards wasnt going to just cut it. He hit a nail on a head though, no one likes losing on turn 2. You can have whatever sideboard card you want but some hands are very keepable but may require a come into play tapped land. Just having to mulligan to 6 because your opponent may play cephalid on a given week since they didnt win the week prior is awkward. This could probably go one more rotation to see how the new control decks pan out and how more decks not having the first land come in tapped works out, but it could be 3 more months of bad feelings. Im voting neutral on this one, but definitely "heavily watched"
-Hymn probably feels the same way when you lose, but thats jsut because people don't complain about the times they get hymn'd once and go on to still win with the early threat they deployed. They just feel the bitter pain that is getting your one combo piece pulled or 2 of the 3 lands you kept so wisely in your opening hand. The numbers don't really support a hymn ban. It is never actually ending the game on the 2nd or 3rd turn by itself.
I am glad a reasonable control deck came along, I havnet played against it yet, but i wasnt even sure anything based on UW control was viable at the time. Giving that deck and other blue based decks FoF should further show that hymn is a great card but not overpowered when effective recovery spells are in the format.
While this is not enough data in the format Penny Dreadful both Hymn and Fact of Fiction are legal, in the first event the FoF deck ruled the day. Historically hymn has had a few times to shine but they are almost always a 2nd tier or metagame special strategy. (Outside of the Necro days)
-Zuran orb is probably going to give me fits in play, but whatever its got some utility but we can always come back if something breaks it.
-I was all for Misthollow being unbanned but I asked for someone to show me something and I saw a glimpse, I am in the corner of leave Eternal Scourge for now, and have both cards be monitored for potential ban or unban.
-FOF/Counterspell I am probably only person who wants both unbanned, it is likely that I may play a psychatog at some event if that ever happens to get it out of my system. In all other circumstances I am probably the least likely player to ever play counterspell in a deck, and I promise my FoF splits will be fun for everyone(not you though)
-Invigorate remains banned? Until atleast a few more good mana options come into play untapped I am against turn 2 format. I don't mind a little speed and exciting game play, and think deck building should answer problems, but not wanting to be just a mono color linear shouldnt mean you have to play with a mana disadvantage against the field.
-Decree of Justice didnt make the TLR list, but I am for it being unbanned or put in the same "under watch" that I would put the griffin/scourge on.
-Goblin Piledriver didnt make the TLR list, but I am for it being unbanned hope that someone makes it seem like we should be watching it, but that is unlikely without some more cards coming into the price range that power it up.
-Dark Ritual didnt make the TLR list, keep it banned even the fun decks are so high variance with this card, and the ones that only i find fun are devious. I love this card but the variance and power level are extreme.
I seen a player suggesting Yavimaya Coast and Personal Tutor for the cephalid deck. Personal tutor is interesting but blue, did I miss the green addition that was being alluded to? Regrowth effect maybe? Groundseal in the sideboard with a fair plan after?
I am of the opinion that some cards should be unbanned, Either counterspell of Fact of Fiction(both at first would be a big change and i understand that, I feel that both would be fine, but understand a one or the other start), Misthollow Griffin, Decree of Justice, Goblin Piledriver, Zuran Orb all seem out of place as bans if we are allowing the cards we have now. I think that cephalid is very close to being bannable but at the current time I would allow it and Hymn to tourach if one of the blue answers comes back into the format. (*note that I think cephalid is fine, but that is also assuming that we are ok with a turn 3ish format. If we were looking for no turn 2 kills we would need to ban one of its must have cards and berserk)
Yeah I understand not wanting something too broken in the format and if that is the stance to be taken I understand. I would like as I asked just to try to include others in the process if possible. Just asking for feedback in the tournament chatroom or here a few weeks before rotation should be more than sufficient. That would let you get a feel for what others think about a broken card and open up discussion which may lead you to a card you have missed. I don't think anyone is going to be purposefully withholding broken cards they are working on if they are truly a problem. Just a little discussion this time showed that several people have already been watching the market and have been working on the new land denial packages that orzhov offers, and I am sure they are also working on solution decks to those and the other current problems.
One thing I do feel should be open to all players whether thru announcements during the tournaments or beforehand on this thread: I do not like the idea of preemptive banning without it being widely known beforehand, this would allow others to chime in, share data, fears, pros/cons, etc. While I am still pretty sure invigorate was going to be a problem(i was testing it also), it would have been fun to atleast get to see how broke we could have made it, and then the inevitable metagaming among the infect players. I don't think it is fair to punish the players who are willing to prepare in advance for the format by stripping them of the time and even cost they put into decks anticipating new cards. I am not saying that they can ever count on a card being legal at a rotation, but I have found that just following market trends I have identified most of the stronger coming rotations and was able to pick them up before the rush to change decks.