Hellkite Tyrant swings on an opponent and is unblocked. Damage is dealt and the Tyrant's artifact theft ability goes on the stack. Cast Mirrorweave targeting a 1/1 thopter artifact on the field. Mirrorweave resolves turning all creatures on the field into 1/1 thopters, then Hellkite Tyrant's ability resolves resulting in stealing of all of the defending opponent's creatures.
So I was digging through some cards and a couple stood out as possible additions to the deck. What would you add from these (if any) and what would you cut to get them in? I have some ideas, but looking for outside opinions.
It depends on how the foil was done. The premium foils like the FTV stuff and the partial foils like in the MM3 set I love. The really dark and flat looking foils I'd rather just have a non-foiled version.
The future sight frames were hands down the worst. Personally I like the M15 frames as I thought the previous standard had gotten stale. The masterpiece series is the most gorgeous frames that have ever done imo.
This is extremely similar to my list. Some quick observations:
Dream Halls is simply a better version of Paradox Engine in this deck. With the number of wheels you play you should be able to keep wheeling into more wheels and just play the whole deck and win. That said, I'd play both of them.
You may have more wheels than you need as you stated. I'm running less and don't have issues getting them. If you replace some with tutors you can still tutor for a wheel if you need it but also get something else if you have wheels available.
Regarding counters and control, I think that is somewhat counter to how the deck operates and may be hard to find the right balance. The deck wants to connect with Yidris and then completely unload, not play draw go. Maybe you could pick your spots but I'd focus on going off more consistently.
Mana fixing wise my focus was on getting Yidris out on turn 3 as consistently as possible to increase my odds of getting him through someone's defenses on turn 4. So I'm running signets, Birds of Paradise, Elves of Deep Shadow, etc. and avoiding higher costed and colorless ramp. I think that's more a preference thing though.
Some cards I'd consider cutting:
Young Pyromancer/Talrand - The deck is so explosive the small value they provides is probably irrelevant.
Maelstrom Wanderer - Not much synergy with the rest of the deck.
Ertai - 4 mana seems like a lot to leave untapped with this deck, maybe Glen Elandra would be a better option.
Wheels and Wheel Punishers - You have so many of this I'm guessing it may be too much? Play testing may be in order to verify.
Cards to consider adding (these aren't very budgetty)
Lotus Bloom/Mox Opal - zero drops to cascade into off 1 drops
Vampiric, Worldly, Mystic Tutor - Set up the top of your library to control what you cascade into
Leovold
Consecrated Sphinx
All I can think of for now. good luck
Dream Halls is very interesting, but the fact that any player can use it, and I'm consistently refilling my opponent's hands as well makes me extremely nervous about utilizing it. I will definitely keep it in my "Maybe" pile of stuff to add later. I am focusing a bit more on the Wheel aspect of the deck rather than Yidris's cascade ability which I see as a nice support option. Otherwise I think I'd push a little more support for her in the form of evasion and protection. I absolutely agree that Young Pyromancer and Talrand, Sky Summoner are not going to pull their weight hence them getting the axe. Maelstrom Wanderer was already on my short list of cards to cut as well. Ertai, Wizard Adept was a card I really like for it's repeatable Counterspell and that it's still usable if I cascade into it, but I agree that it's tough to leave four mana open "just in case" especially early in the game. I still like the idea of having a counterspell that is worth a damn if I cascade into it so I swapped him with Daring Apprentice. This way I still have the ability there if I need it, and Ertai would probably get nuked off the table pretty quick anyway. I also added Pyroblast for the same reason. If I cascade into it, I wouldn't feel bad as I can probably still find a use for it. I'm trying to stick with most of my punisher cards for now, because they are what I'm going to use to finish the game. I did cut some of the wheel and windfall effects. Maybe too many, but we'll see.
I do intend to eventually add more tutors. I did add an artifact tutor (Fabricate)to dig up Paradox Engine since it can have such a huge impact on this deck, or another artifact since this deck is heavy with them. Someday I'll own a Vampiric Tutor and when I do, this will probably be the first deck it goes into. I have a Demonic Tutor I can probably pull from another deck to put in here. Mystical Tutor will find it's way into the deck when I go acquire the lands that I want add to the deck to replace the crappy ones that are in it at the moment.
I have Leovold, Emissary of Trest in another deck and love him, but I want players drawing lots of cards and doing lots of damage to themselves as they do it. Consecrated Sphinx is one that I'd like to add but simply don't have a copy of at the moment as it will make a Windfall effect after a Wheel effect utterly deadly with just one or two discard punishers on the board. Lotus Bloom and Mox Opal are some of those cards that I simply refuse to own because I would want them in almost every single deck I run.
Chasm Skulker seems pretty good here. Also, could there be any utility in some storm finisher? Thinking specifically of Temporal Fissure
As you can see, Chasm Skulker has been added. I simply forgot about the card and appreciate the reminder It might still get cut later but I like it for now since it will usually force people to deal with it. Storm is something I've been thinking about. For now, I added Mind's Desire since I already have a copy. I don't want to add mass destruction or bounces of permanents since I need my punisher cards on the board to win.
So, the way this works is as such: With the Paradox Engine, a mana rock capable simply of making R for no additional cost (this is relevant! If you intend on using a Signet for this make sure you have an extra land/rock open here), 3 mana already open, and Yidris's Cascade on deck for use. Grapeshot needs to be in the hand if Yidris isn't cascading for you this turn, but it can be in the deck if the Cascade is active.
: Cast Grinning Ignus. Cascade for 2 or less. Untap your rocks and such. If you Cascade into Grapeshot, let it go to the bottom. Otherwise, cast if all is well. Everything resolves.
Pay R with the mana rock and use it to pay for Grinning Ignus's activated ability, adding its casting cost to your mana pool.
Use that mana to...
. Do not worry if you don't Cascade into anything, or if you Cascade into Grapeshot - in the latter case put it back on the bottom and continue. Your storm count is still rising with each solitary cast of the Ignus.
When you have a large enough storm count to reliably burn every opponent out, cast Grapeshot, either via cascade or otherwise. Maybe get a couple more storm copies ready in case they want to counter a couple (but also be wary of things like Flusterstorm - although that shouldn't be too common IMHO.
You *could* also run Tendrils of Agony as a backup, but you can't cascade into that with the Ignus so keep that in mind. Also, for large boardstates, Mind's Desire is pretty ace as well.
In other plans, why not run Strionic Resonator? If you do what I'm saying in addition, you can double the storm count for a storm card (as Storm is a triggered ability on the stack), and even if not, you can copy Yidris's combat damage trigger, or any singular Cascade trigger. Plus it's a 2-drop so makes any plans to Cascade into something like Wheel of Fate all the more promising.
For the other 2 Storm cards, consider cutting Wheel of Fortune (tough I know, but if you don't know, it's like $44 USD or something) and Winds of Change which doesn't discard and so kind of works against your Megrim or your Liliana's Caress.
For the Resonator, I think that both Dragon Mage and Magus of the Wheel don't do what you want them to, well enough. Their wheels are abilities so you won't get as much mileage as you want from them in here. I'm surprised you're not running Mindcrank considering the Bloodchief Ascension and the Duskmantle Guildmage (note to self: I ought to add Duskmantle Guildmage!). I might posit you should take both of the wheel creatures out and add Resonator and Mindcrank.
Finally, I don't see Ulamog doing enough for you. He's removal and a Reminisce, as well as a threat (with added removal besides). What you could use better, in my humble opinion, is Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. Kozilek is ample removal with his Annihilator trigger (which can be Resonated!!!), is another Reminisce (and a *more reliable* one at that since Ulamog is indestructible), and provides a wonderful amount of card advantage on the cast. I say swap those two one-for-one.
Otherwise, this is already quite solid.
~Lil Kalki
Everything that's in the deck list is stuff I already have, so budget is only really a concern with cards that I add from here on (part of the reason I wanted to build this deck is already having the pricey wheel/windfall cards but no home for them).
Grinning Ignus and Grapeshot is interesting, and I'm definitely going to put that in the "Maybe" list as well. I am trying to avoid straight up "I win" combos as I have a Breya deck built with those in spades. This is also why I don't run Mindcrank here, besides I have a Phenax deck that runs that combo, and I try not to have the same hard combo in more than one deck. Strionic Resonator is a great suggestion and a card I had simply forgotten about. I think I have a spare one floating around somewhere as well.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is what I would probably prefer to Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, but Ulamog is what I have. For me, their sole purpose in the deck is as Reminisce just to ensure I don't mill myself or to keep someone from popping a Keening Stone on me. I have no intention of casting it unless I absolutely have to. That being said, I wiil probably grab Koz at somepoint in tyhe near future.
If you don't already have it, you might consider Fanning the Flames if you are abusing the crap out of Paradox Engine. RR4 in tapable non-land mana sources and Paradox Engine will win the game. I'm not running it in this deck because again, I'm trying to avoid those sort of combos in this one.
Once again, thank you for the suggestions and keep them coming. I'm still trying to get some games in, but alas, adulting has to come first.
At the moment it's built almost purely around the basic mechanic of dealing damage through making opponents draw and discard, plus bonuses from casting a lot of spells. The manabase needs to be more efficient obviously (this is just what I had available on hand), and I'd like to try to add a decent counter/control package. I'm thinking I can cut the number of wheel effects down, as really one or two wheels will end the game with enough draw/discard punishment on the table. I'd like to add a few more rocks like Thran Dynamo. Budget-wise, I'd like to keep the card average around $5-7 for stuff I'm adding now, but am willing to spend up to $30-40 on a card here or there that makes a huge impact in the deck.
If I'm in a position to win the game in a play, I always go for it. That being said, I absolutely pull punches all the time. Not so much out of any sense of fairness, but more out of managing how much hate I'm accruing compared to other players. In addition, if I know that another player can and will take care of a threat, I'm not going to spend my resources on it if I don't have to.
The one case where I pull punches where it is not advantageous for me to do so is if it means knocking one player out many turns before the game will likely draw down to a conclusion. I hate being the guy who has to sit through an hour of game play just shuffling cards and watching others play while waiting for the next game to start so I hate putting others in that position.
I think maybe I worded the Hellkite ability incorrectly. His ability would go on the stack after damage has been dealt, not assigned. At this point I think I would have priority to cast an instant:
510.2. Second, all combat damage that’s been assigned is dealt simultaneously. This turn-based action
doesn’t use the stack. No player has the chance to cast spells or activate abilities between the time
combat damage is assigned and the time it’s dealt.
Example: Squadron Hawk (a 1/1 creature with flying) and Goblin Piker (a 2/1 creature) are
attacking. Mogg Fanatic (a 1/1 creature with the ability “Sacrifice Mogg Fanatic: Mogg
Fanatic deals 1 damage to target creature or player”) blocks the Goblin Piker. The
defending player sacrifices Mogg Fanatic during the declare blockers step to deal 1 damage
to the Squadron Hawk. The Hawk is destroyed. The Piker deals and is dealt no combat
damage this turn. If the defending player instead left Mogg Fanatic on the battlefield, the
Fanatic and the Piker would have dealt lethal damage to one another, but the Squadron
Hawk couldn’t have been dealt damage.
510.3. Third, the active player gets priority. (See rule 116, “Timing and Priority.”)
510.3a Any abilities that triggered on damage being dealt or while state-based actions are
performed afterward are put onto the stack before the active player gets priority; the order in
which they triggered doesn’t matter. (See rule 603, “Handling Triggered Abilities.”)
So I think both of these are legal and work but just want to be sure.
1) Multiplayer game - Send a small army of 1/1 flying thopters at each opponent. A couple get through unblocked to each opponent. After blockers are declared but before assigning damage, cast Mirrorweave targeting a Blightsteel Colossus that is on the field. All the thopters are now copies of the Colossus, and proceed to kill all opponents with poison counters.
2) Hellkite Tyrant swings on an opponent and is unblocked. Damage is assigned and the Tyrant's artifact theft ability goes on the stack. Cast Mirrorweave targeting a 1/1 thopter on the field. Mirrorweave resolves turning all creatures on the field into 1/1 thopters, then Hellkite Tyrant's ability resolves resulting in stealing of all of the defending opponent's creatures.
Hellkite Tyrant swings on an opponent and is unblocked. Damage is dealt and the Tyrant's artifact theft ability goes on the stack. Cast Mirrorweave targeting a 1/1 thopter artifact on the field. Mirrorweave resolves turning all creatures on the field into 1/1 thopters, then Hellkite Tyrant's ability resolves resulting in stealing of all of the defending opponent's creatures.
I think this is the first set in awhile that made me want to snatch up all of the planeswalkers.
Talisman of Impulse
Zhur-Taa Druid
Arjun, the Shifting Flame
Deathrite Shaman
Rashmi, Eternities Crafter
Key to the City
Delirium Skeins
I made a few changes to the deck to put it in line with my original desires to get some better mana fixing and control, and to cut some dead weight.
Out:
Life from the Loam
Ertai, Wizard Adept
Duskmantle Guildmage
Mind Stone
Young Pyromancer
Talrand, Sky Summoner
Ill-Gotten Gains
Magus of the Jar
Magus of the Wheel
Reforge the Soul
Dragon Mage
Maelstrom Wanderer
Incindiary Command
In:
Black Vise - I don't remember what I removed for this, but I pulled a masterpiece version out of a random pack and it's just too pretty not to use and I can't think of another deck that I'd ever run that would use it.
Daring Apprentice
Pyroblast
Fabricate
Mind's Desire
Autumn's Veil
Fog
Silent Arbiter
Psychosis Crawler
Chasm Skulker
Elves of Deep Shadow
Birds of Paradise
Golgari Signet
Gruul Signet
Dream Halls is very interesting, but the fact that any player can use it, and I'm consistently refilling my opponent's hands as well makes me extremely nervous about utilizing it. I will definitely keep it in my "Maybe" pile of stuff to add later. I am focusing a bit more on the Wheel aspect of the deck rather than Yidris's cascade ability which I see as a nice support option. Otherwise I think I'd push a little more support for her in the form of evasion and protection. I absolutely agree that Young Pyromancer and Talrand, Sky Summoner are not going to pull their weight hence them getting the axe. Maelstrom Wanderer was already on my short list of cards to cut as well. Ertai, Wizard Adept was a card I really like for it's repeatable Counterspell and that it's still usable if I cascade into it, but I agree that it's tough to leave four mana open "just in case" especially early in the game. I still like the idea of having a counterspell that is worth a damn if I cascade into it so I swapped him with Daring Apprentice. This way I still have the ability there if I need it, and Ertai would probably get nuked off the table pretty quick anyway. I also added Pyroblast for the same reason. If I cascade into it, I wouldn't feel bad as I can probably still find a use for it. I'm trying to stick with most of my punisher cards for now, because they are what I'm going to use to finish the game. I did cut some of the wheel and windfall effects. Maybe too many, but we'll see.
I do intend to eventually add more tutors. I did add an artifact tutor (Fabricate)to dig up Paradox Engine since it can have such a huge impact on this deck, or another artifact since this deck is heavy with them. Someday I'll own a Vampiric Tutor and when I do, this will probably be the first deck it goes into. I have a Demonic Tutor I can probably pull from another deck to put in here. Mystical Tutor will find it's way into the deck when I go acquire the lands that I want add to the deck to replace the crappy ones that are in it at the moment.
I have Leovold, Emissary of Trest in another deck and love him, but I want players drawing lots of cards and doing lots of damage to themselves as they do it. Consecrated Sphinx is one that I'd like to add but simply don't have a copy of at the moment as it will make a Windfall effect after a Wheel effect utterly deadly with just one or two discard punishers on the board. Lotus Bloom and Mox Opal are some of those cards that I simply refuse to own because I would want them in almost every single deck I run.
As you can see, Chasm Skulker has been added. I simply forgot about the card and appreciate the reminder It might still get cut later but I like it for now since it will usually force people to deal with it. Storm is something I've been thinking about. For now, I added Mind's Desire since I already have a copy. I don't want to add mass destruction or bounces of permanents since I need my punisher cards on the board to win.
Everything that's in the deck list is stuff I already have, so budget is only really a concern with cards that I add from here on (part of the reason I wanted to build this deck is already having the pricey wheel/windfall cards but no home for them).
Grinning Ignus and Grapeshot is interesting, and I'm definitely going to put that in the "Maybe" list as well. I am trying to avoid straight up "I win" combos as I have a Breya deck built with those in spades. This is also why I don't run Mindcrank here, besides I have a Phenax deck that runs that combo, and I try not to have the same hard combo in more than one deck. Strionic Resonator is a great suggestion and a card I had simply forgotten about. I think I have a spare one floating around somewhere as well.
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is what I would probably prefer to Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, but Ulamog is what I have. For me, their sole purpose in the deck is as Reminisce just to ensure I don't mill myself or to keep someone from popping a Keening Stone on me. I have no intention of casting it unless I absolutely have to. That being said, I wiil probably grab Koz at somepoint in tyhe near future.
If you don't already have it, you might consider Fanning the Flames if you are abusing the crap out of Paradox Engine. RR4 in tapable non-land mana sources and Paradox Engine will win the game. I'm not running it in this deck because again, I'm trying to avoid those sort of combos in this one.
Once again, thank you for the suggestions and keep them coming. I'm still trying to get some games in, but alas, adulting has to come first.
1x Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder
Land (33)
1x Blood Crypt
1x Command Tower
1x Crumbling Necropolis
1x Dragonskull Summit
1x Evolving Wilds
1x Exotic Orchard
4x Forest
1x Frontier Bivouac
1x Geier Reach Sanitarium
1x Halimar Depths
4x Island
1x Maze of Ith
2x Mountain
1x Opulent Palace
1x Rakdos Carnarium
1x Reliquary Tower
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Rugged Highlands
1x Rupture Spire
1x Savage Lands
1x Simic Growth Chamber
4x Swamp
1x Terramorphic Expanse
Enchantment (8)
1x Bloodchief Ascension
1x Breathstealer's Crypt
1x Burgeoning
1x Liliana's Caress
1x Megrim
1x Phyrexian Tyranny
1x Underworld Dreams
1x Waste Not
1x Black Vise
1x Chromatic Lantern
1x Commander's Sphere
1x Darksteel Ingot
1x Defense Grid
1x Dimir Signet
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Fellwar Stone
1x Geth's Grimoire
1x Golgari Signet
1x Gruul Signet
1x Izzet Signet
1x Memory Jar
1x Paradox Engine
1x Rakdos Signet
1x Simic Signet
1x Sol Ring
1x Spellbook
1x Sphinx-Bone Wand
1x Teferi's Puzzle Box
1x Thought Vessel
1x Whispersilk Cloak
Sorcery (14)
1x Ancestral Vision
1x Baral's Expertise
1x Dark Deal
1x Diabolic Tutor
1x Fabricate
1x Mind's Desire
1x Raven's Crime
1x Rishkar's Expertise
1x Time Spiral
1x Wheel of Fate
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Whispering Madness
1x Windfall
1x Winds of Change
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Chasm Skulker
1x Daring Apprentice
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Eternal Witness
1x Fate Unraveler
1x Guiltfeeder
1x Guttersnipe
1x Jace's Archivist
1x Kederekt Parasite
1x Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix
1x Nath of the Gilt-Leaf
1x Nekusar, the Mindrazer
1x Psychosis Crawler
1x Sangromancer
1x Silent Arbiter
1x Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Instant (5)
1x Autumn's Veil
1x Fog
1x Psychic Spiral
1x Pyroblast
1x Wheel and Deal
Out:
Life from the Loam
Ertai, Wizard Adept
Duskmantle Guildmage
Mind Stone
Young Pyromancer
Talrand, Sky Summoner
Ill-Gotten Gains
Magus of the Jar
Magus of the Wheel
Reforge the Soul
Dragon Mage
Maelstrom Wanderer
Incindiary Command
In:
Black Vise - I don't remember what I removed for this, but I pulled a masterpiece version out of a random pack and it's just too pretty not to use and I can't think of another deck that I'd ever run that would use it.
Daring Apprentice
Pyroblast
Fabricate
Mind's Desire
Autumn's Veil
Fog
Silent Arbiter
Psychosis Crawler
Chasm Skulker
Elves of Deep Shadow
Birds of Paradise
Golgari Signet
Gruul Signet
The one case where I pull punches where it is not advantageous for me to do so is if it means knocking one player out many turns before the game will likely draw down to a conclusion. I hate being the guy who has to sit through an hour of game play just shuffling cards and watching others play while waiting for the next game to start so I hate putting others in that position.
Maybe not totally awful in edh, but bad enough in most formats that I think it qualifies.
1) Multiplayer game - Send a small army of 1/1 flying thopters at each opponent. A couple get through unblocked to each opponent. After blockers are declared but before assigning damage, cast Mirrorweave targeting a Blightsteel Colossus that is on the field. All the thopters are now copies of the Colossus, and proceed to kill all opponents with poison counters.
2) Hellkite Tyrant swings on an opponent and is unblocked. Damage is assigned and the Tyrant's artifact theft ability goes on the stack. Cast Mirrorweave targeting a 1/1 thopter on the field. Mirrorweave resolves turning all creatures on the field into 1/1 thopters, then Hellkite Tyrant's ability resolves resulting in stealing of all of the defending opponent's creatures.